Lying may be distasteful, but it's also a right

Lying may be distasteful, but it's also a right [usatoday.com]

Xavier Alvarez never played hockey for the Detroit Red Wings.
He wasn't secretly married to a Mexican starlet.

And he certainly wasn't an ex-Marine who had been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor.

But Alvarez claimed to be all three. And it was the lie about his military honors that led to his being charged with a felony under the Stolen Valor Act of 2005.

Now Alvarez can claim — truthfully — that he is a subject of a potentially pivotal First Amendment case in federal court. In a 2 to 1 decision, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals struck down the Stolen Valor Law, saying it violated the First Amendment. The court showed no sympathy toward lying, yet it was reluctant to give the government too much latitude in punishing untruthful speech.

"The general freedom from government interference with speech ... without the government injecting itself into the discussion as the arbiter of truth, contribute(s) to the 'breathing space' the First Amendment needs to survive," Judge Milan Smith Jr. wrote.

The court couldn't have had a much less sympathetic subject. "Alvarez makes a hobby of lying about himself to make people think he is 'a psycho from the mental ward with Rambo stories.' " the judge wrote. Yet the court still threw out the charges against Alvarez, saying that lies have a role in a free society and that the government faces a very high hurdle if it wants to limit free expression.
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I wonder - how is it that the Stolen Valor act is unconstitutional, yet in many (all?) states it's a crime to impersonate an officer (e.g. police). For example, you can't call up someone and claim to be a police officer. How is this case any different?

Quote from Dr. J : I wonder - how is it that the Stolen Valor act is unconstitutional, yet in many (all?) states it's a crime to impersonate an officer (e.g. police). For example, you can't call up someone and claim to be a police officer. How is this case any different?

Perhaps for the same reasons that yelling "fire" in a movie theater when there is no fire is not protected under the 1st amendment. It can put people in danger. It's easy to think of ways that impersonating a police officer can put people in danger. It's difficult to think of ways that impersonating a military award winner can put people in danger.

I don't think it's a crime.. rather a civil case.

Quote from Epiphyte : Perhaps for the same reasons that yelling "fire" in a movie theater when there is no fire is not protected under the 1st amendment. It can put people in danger. It's easy to think of ways that impersonating a police officer can put people in danger. It's difficult to think of ways that impersonating a military award winner can put people in danger.

By that logic, lying under oath (Perjury) may not be harmful to others so why should that be unlawful. It is this man's first amendment right to say all the things that he said, however, he should still have to bare the consequenses of what he says, especially when he benefits from his falacy. Otherwise, anyone could voice slanderous opinions about anyone else and get away with it.

Quote from appleyum : I don't think it's a crime.. rather a civil case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poli...ersonation

Police impersonation is an act of falsely portraying oneself as a member of the police, for the purpose of deception. In the vast majority of countries the practice is illegal and carries a custodial sentence.

Quote from Dr. J : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poli...ersonation Police impersonation is an act of falsely portraying oneself as a member of the police, for the purpose of deception. In the vast majority of countries the practice is illegal and carries a custodial sentence.

I am not talking about the police.

Quote from Epiphyte : It's easy to think of ways that impersonating a police officer can put people in danger. It's difficult to think of ways that impersonating a military award winner can put people in danger.

Medal isn't on duty representing the position. You can't really compare the two

Lying about medal is no different than lying on your job application(with a fake degree). You will suffer the consequence in a civil court.

Quote from jjacob : By that logic, lying under oath (Perjury) may not be harmful to others so why should that be unlawful. It is this man's first amendment right to say all the things that he said, however, he should still have to bare the consequenses of what he says, especially when he benefits from his falacy. Otherwise, anyone could voice slanderous opinions about anyone else and get away with it.

No you are not getting the logic... because base on what you are saying then pretending to be a cop may not be harmful to others.

Perjury has the potentially putting a wrong person in jail for life or sign up for the death penalty.

Quote from Dr. J : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poli...ersonation Police impersonation is an act of falsely portraying oneself as a member of the police, for the purpose of deception. In the vast majority of countries the practice is illegal and carries a custodial sentence.

I'd think the intent of making police impersonation is to punish a specific type of fraud. Individuals who use the disguise of police authority to trespass, gain influence, or property should certainly be punished.

Question I have, is if it's ok to lie about something between two people (assuming no fraud is taking place), why is it illegal to lie under oath?

Quote from appleyum : No you are not getting the logic... because base on what you are saying then pretending to be a cop may not be harmful to others. Perjury has the potentially putting a wrong person in jail for life or sign up for the death penalty.

Whether pretending to be a cop to cause harm to others or pretending to be a cop to benefit from honors/discounts/awards they receive, it is still unlawful to pretend to be a cop. It should be no different for impersonating military. And, yes perjury has the potential of putting the wrong person in jail or receive the death penalty, but it also has the potential to make oneself look good in the eyes of the court. Either way, it is wrong and unlawful. Same with this situation, what if he impersonated a military officer and committed a homicide?

Quote from Danman114 : I'd think the intent of making police impersonation is to punish a specific type of fraud. Individuals who use the disguise of police authority to trespass, gain influence, or property should certainly be punished. Question I have, is if it's ok to lie about something between two people (assuming no fraud is taking place), why is it illegal to lie under oath?

But I don't know if the laws are that specific - e.g. that you must use the lie to gain something. For example, could I walk around in a police uniform, tell people I am a cop, etc? Or, even just help people cross the street? Probably not.

Quote from Danman114 : I'd think the intent of making police impersonation is to punish a specific type of fraud. Individuals who use the disguise of police authority to trespass, gain influence, or property should certainly be punished.

True..or else if you dress up as a police officer for Halloween could get you in trouble

So how you feel about lying to gov't officals and cops...... or do certain people get better treatment then others...?

Quote from Danman114 : I'd think the intent of making police impersonation is to punish a specific type of fraud. Individuals who use the disguise of police authority to trespass, gain influence, or property should certainly be punished. Question I have, is if it's ok to lie about something between two people (assuming no fraud is taking place), why is it illegal to lie under oath?

IMHO, because it would be akin to perpetrating a "fraud" against the court given that the witness has legally sworn to tell the truth.

And, FWIW, not every "lie" told under oath is considered illegal perjury. Just ask Clinton.

Quote from appleyum : True..or else if you dress up as a police officer for Halloween could get you in trouble

Nope. Impersonation generally requires more than just dressing up as whoever you're impersonating, though in extreme cases (an example of which I can't even imagine right now) that may be all it takes. Impersonation is just making other people (or another person) believe, in good faith, that you are someone you aren't. Dressing up as a police officer, for example, would only be consequential on Halloween if you actually tried to convince people that you are a police officer. If you make no overt effort to encourage that belief, you should not be found guilty of impersonation. The same is true any other day of the year.