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GUNS LE turn in Remington 11-87 semi-auto tactical shotguns - $439.95 at J&G Sales (vs $918-1200 new)

jdpatt 637 October 21, 2010 at 11:32 PM in Sporting Goods (7)
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http://www.jgsales.com/product_in...ts_id/4709 $439.95 with 21" barrel and pistol grip (Top 5 photos below)

or

http://www.jgsales.com/product_in...ts_id/4588 $469 with 18" smooth barrel and extended magazine (Bottom 4 photos below)

Quote :
We have a batch of these heavy duty semi auto shotguns from a police trade-in. They are the Remington model 11-87 Police shotguns chambered for 12GA, with a 3in chamber. Have 21in parkerized barrels with rifle sights, black synthetic stock with tactical pistol grip, sling swivels, and recoil pad. Have very good bores and are in very good mechanical condition. The exterior is nicked, dinged and scratched from patrol use, but these are in very good plus condition.
I figured we were about due for a shotgun thread, and we haven't seen many semi-auto shotguns here in a while (unless I missed them). For a price comparison (which is hard to do, since there's a lot of minor variations within the model line, and many changes from year to year), Bud's, who generally has some of the best prices on everything, sells the most recent version of this gun for $918 new [budsgunshop.com]and an economy version of the 11-87 for $529 used (with a 26" barrel, no other "upgrades"). [budsgunshop.com] Gander Mountain sells these guns for $700-1100 [gandermountain.com] and Cabelas sells 11-87s for $700-1200, [cabelas.com] but neither carry the "tactical" models, which generally cost more, so it's hard to directly compare them.

For those unfamiliar with LE turn ins, these are guns that were bought by police departments and issued to their officers. For whatever reason (usually because the department chooses to issue a different weapon), they were sold off all at once. As these guns were carried by police officers, they usually have some handling wear (nicks or scratches to the metal or stock), and often have rack wear (since they spent 99% of their life in a rack at the precinct station or in the trunk/passenger compartment of the police car). Some may be new-never issued, although most have taken their turn on patrol. They were, however, usually maintained religiously, often by a manufacturer certified armorer, who would periodically clean, lubricate, and inspect them, and replace any worn or broken parts. Most of these guns have probably been fired very little, if at all, since most larger departments have a few shotguns dedicated to qualifying and cops don't get involved in THAT many shootings, even here in Detroit!

Quote from jdpatt (copied and pasted from a prior shotgun SD...too much to type from scratch!) :
A primer on shotguns, for those who aren't "experts" (which is NOT to suggest I am...just a guy with an opinion).

As far as loads go, what round you use depends on a LOT of variables, and every person's situation is different. While most would agree that #8 shot wouldn't be very effective at 25 yards, if you're defending a home that has bedrooms that are 25 yards wide, you're probably not looking to save a few bucks on these forums...you probably have servants to do that.

For those unfamiliar with guns, specifically shotguns, some definitions and explanations might help. I've attached a diagram to help visualize.

Very briefly and in general terms:

A shotgun is a gun with a smooth barrel (as opposed to a rifle, which has grooves cut in the barrel to make the bullet spin, which gives the bullet stability, like a football has when it's thrown with a spiral). The smooth barrel generally fires a number of separate projectiles, although it can fire a single projectile. The projectile itself can be rifled (the grooves are on the projectile, rather than cut into the barrel), giving a similar effect as a rifle proper. A shotgun barrel designed for firing multiple projectiles usually has a "choke." The "choke" of the barrel determines how quickly the projectiles separate after they leave the barrel. A tighter choke usually keeps the projectiles closer together for longer distances, giving greater effective range to the gun; a more open choke causes the projectiles to spread out more quickly, making the gun less effective at longer ranges, but more effective at closer ranges. The common chokes, from tightest to most open, are Full, Modified, and Improved Cylinder. Although there are dozens of variations on this, these three are the most common and universal. At a given distance, a full choke might allow the shot to spread out a few inches, while an improved cylinder might allow the same shot to spread out a few feet. The gun in this post has a "police cylinder" which is a bit more open than the improved cylinder.

A shotgun round is a plastic shell that holds 3 things:
1. Powder to propel the projectile(s). The powder charge varies, but generally more equates to more powerful.
2. A wadding to seal the powder from the projectile(s), although it also holds the projectiles together as they move down the barrel. It's a plastic "barrier" that keeps the pressure created by the burning powder sealed. As the powder burns, it creates pressure which pushes against the wadding. The wadding, in turn, pushes against the projectile(s).
3. The projectile(s). A shotgun is capable of shooting any number of things, limited, essentially, by what will physically fit in the shell. Flares, flechettes (little metal darts), or non-lethal "bean bags" are some more exotic options, but the most common projectiles are either "Slugs" or "Shot."

A slug is exactly what it sounds like, a big, heavy, lead slug, generally 1 to 1.5 oz in a 12 ga shotgun. It is extremely powerful, does a LOT of damage, and fairly accurate, capable of shooting 2" groups at 100 yards. Picture a hunk of lead, roughly the size and shape of your thumb and you're not too far off.

Shot is pellets, and depending on the size of the pellets, a single shotgun shell can hold a few larger pellets or hundreds of smaller pellets. Smaller pellets, or "Bird Shot" (so called because they're used to hunt birds), does not have a lot of power against a human target, since the smaller mass of the pellet doesn't carry a lot of energy to the target. It is, however, worth considering if overpenetration is a concern, as the smaller pellets don't have a lot of energy, and are less likely to go through drywall or plaster (i.e. you don't have to worry about them hurting your kids in the next room). Larger shot, called "buckshot" (so called because it's used primarily for deer hunting) uses larger pellets, which have more energy and penetrate more. The most common round for self defense is "00 Buck" which fires (9) .32 caliber pellets at the same time. The pellets spread apart as they travel away from the barrel. Essentially, shooting someone with 00 Buckshot is like shooting them 9 times with a Walther PPK, only the shotgun pellets are travelling considerably faster. A round of 000 Buckshot has (5) .38 caliber pellets, and so on. Shot size is designated by a number, with 9 being the smallest pellets, and 0000 being the largest pellets.

As a rule of thumb, as far as shotguns go, smaller usually equals bigger...a 12 gauge is bigger than a 20 gauge, #5 shot is bigger than #8 shot...go figure.

00 Buck is a great all-around defensive load, but it has the potential to penetrate more than you might want it to. Assuming this gun is purchased for home defense (i.e. ruling out concealed carry, as ridiculous as that may sound, or offensive tasks, like police raids), you have to consider the specifics of your situation. Someone with kids in adjacent bedrooms has to think strongly about 00 buck going through a wall; someone living in an apartment building or attached condo would be in the same situation. Someone living in a Northern climate might need enough punch to penetrate heavy winter clothing, while someone living in the South could probably do well with something lighter. An inexperienced shooter probably wouldn't have the same control of a load with heavy recoil for follow up shots, and to be honest, at the close ranges home defense involves, even the plastic wadding from a #9 target load could be lethal. If you're smart, the best thing you can do if someone breaks into your house is to call 911, gather the kids with you and your spouse in one room, and keep the gun pointed at the door until the cops arrive (and make sure you tell the cops that you're armed and what room you're in, and don't shoot at the cops by mistake, for heaven's sake). Measure where you'd be standing to the door of that room, and that's pretty much the range you're going to be dealing with.

All of this information can be confusing to a new shooter, but don't let it be. Ask questions if you don't understand something, there's usually a dozen people willing to answer them...often with conflicting information (a little joke...lots of people have a hard time separating fact from opinion when discussing guns).

How to order guns online or through the mail via an FFL dealer:


If you have an FFL (or C&R, in the case of C&R guns), you can order and have the items shipped directly to you.

If you don't, you need to locate an FFL dealer and have the gun shipped to them. You order and pay for the gun, directly through J&G's website. You enter your address as the billing address, and the FFL dealer you choose as the shipping address. When it arrives, you then pick up the gun at the FFL dealer and pay him whatever fee he charges (usually $20-30, but shop around for the best price...some charge a lot more, some will negotiate and charge less).

You can locate an FFL dealer through either of these sites. Enter your ZIP code or address to sort them by distance. Be sure to check the fees they charge and try to get the best deal you can:

http://listings.shotgunnews.com/fflguide/
http://www.gunbroker.com/FFL/DealerNetwork.aspx
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Bachomp Bachewychomp
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#2
Man, good post. Makes my gun posts look weak. If I didn't already have 2 12 gauges AND a kid on the way AND a wife who doesn't understand that you need as many guns as you can possibly afford Big Grin I'd be all over this.
Helpful Comment? 0 0
#3
From gunreports.com [gunreports.com]:

My agency decided to order 14" 11-87s over the desired Benelli 14" and it was terrible. As an armorer I can't say how many O-rings we replaced (100s!) and it took power tools to clean the barrels after shooting slugs! We were very dissapointed. The Rem Reps lied to up about reliability when we questioned them on the 14" bbl issue, telling us there were "extra rings" that can be installed to enhance functioning-NOT. My personal 1100s have run A-OK since 1980, but the 11-87 LE sucks and that's from a State Police agency armorer.

and

I spent 13 years on a Southern CA police department SWAT team entry element, armed with the Remington 1100. Flawless performance the entire time. Transitioned to the 11-87 Police model and it was pure garbage. Regardless of ammo type the only thing you could count on was that at some point it would fail to cycle (2x in 6 not unusual). I contacted Remington and they could have cared less; offered no advice and blew me off completely. The only obvious problem I could find was that it ate "O" rings like m&ms, but even after changing them out the problem continued. Not what you want for ANY reason, let alone the first gun through the door on a hot entry. Back to the 1100 but with a REAL bad taste in my mouth for Remington. I won't deal with them again.
Helpful Comment? 0 0
#4
Quote from papertrader View Post :
From gunreports.com [gunreports.com]:

My agency decided to order 14" 11-87s over the desired Benelli 14" and it was terrible. As an armorer I can't say how many O-rings we replaced (100s!) and it took power tools to clean the barrels after shooting slugs! We were very dissapointed. The Rem Reps lied to up about reliability when we questioned them on the 14" bbl issue, telling us there were "extra rings" that can be installed to enhance functioning-NOT. My personal 1100s have run A-OK since 1980, but the 11-87 LE sucks and that's from a State Police agency armorer.

and

I spent 13 years on a Southern CA police department SWAT team entry element, armed with the Remington 1100. Flawless performance the entire time. Transitioned to the 11-87 Police model and it was pure garbage. Regardless of ammo type the only thing you could count on was that at some point it would fail to cycle (2x in 6 not unusual). I contacted Remington and they could have cared less; offered no advice and blew me off completely. The only obvious problem I could find was that it ate "O" rings like m&ms, but even after changing them out the problem continued. Not what you want for ANY reason, let alone the first gun through the door on a hot entry. Back to the 1100 but with a REAL bad taste in my mouth for Remington. I won't deal with them again.
On a slightly different note...this reminds me of a CNBC special I saw the other night about Remington 700's that have been firing when not squeezing the trigger and only disengaging the safety. The report indicated that Remington has known about this for some time and neglected to include a firing pin block to fix the issue. I've got a 700 and it got me thinking...
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#5
awesome price, but I hate that it has a 21" rifled barrel, and no magazine extension... it's almost worth purchasing for the receiver alone at $439. Nice find OP.
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#6
Quote from hoothrewpoo View Post :
awesome price, but I hate that it has a 21" rifled barrel
How do you feel about an 18" improved cylinder with an extended mag tube [jgsales.com]?
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#7
Quote from papertrader View Post :
How do you feel about an 18" improved cylinder with an extended mag tube [jgsales.com]?
I feel like I should purchase it. I looked at a used 11-87P at a gun show a couple of weeks ago, and it was $790. Figured I would just get a Mossberg 930SPX for $550 and be done with it, but $469 for the 11-87P is pretty strong. Thanks for the find.
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#8
Do you think the Benelli M4 is superior to the Remington 1100? Something about less parts to wear out with the Benelli due to the inertia system.
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#9
Can these take a choke?
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#10
Very nice find. repped
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#11
Quote from Wetworx View Post :
this reminds me of a CNBC special...
It's best to stick to legitimate news sources for your information. Reliance on trial lawyer, "experts" can lead to careless, biased, ill-informed, agenda-driven "journalism".

Here are the facts about the Remington 700:

First manufactured in 1962, there are than 5 million of these rifles in circulation. They have fired billions of rounds in 49 years of operation.

For the last 20 years it has been the platform for the US Army and US Marine Corps precision sniper weapons systems.

Both Remington and experts hired by plaintiff attorneys have conducted testing on guns returned from the field which were alleged to have fired without a trigger pull, and neither has ever been able to duplicate such an event on guns which had been properly maintained and which had not been altered after sale.

To date, 75 consumers have sued Remington over this issue. To give you some idea where this falls on the lawsuit scale:

Toyota throttle control/sudden acceleration: 11.5 million vehicles. 228 federal and 100 state lawsuits.
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#12
Quote from Popolokous View Post :
Do you think the Benelli M4 is superior to the Remington 1100? Something about less parts to wear out with the Benelli due to the inertia system.
Benelli M4 > Remington 1100 > Remington 11-87

Quote from jerkweed View Post :
Can these take a choke?
No. You would need to get a replacement barrel for about $100 less than the price of the gun!
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#13
Quote from hoothrewpoo View Post :
I feel like I should purchase it.
I really wanted to jump on this too, but the O-ring issue was a red-flag for me.
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#14
Quote from Wetworx View Post :
On a slightly different note...this reminds me of a CNBC special I saw the other night about Remington 700's that have been firing when not squeezing the trigger and only disengaging the safety. The report indicated that Remington has known about this for some time and neglected to include a firing pin block to fix the issue. I've got a 700 and it got me thinking...
I read a story the other day about this. Some mother had killed her son while unloading the gun. She swears she never pulled the trigger. yeah, right! next time don't point the gun at your son. More people looking to blame others for their mistakes.
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#15
I have the precursor: the 1100, and it's awesome! I have a whole bag of 100 O-rings that cost me around $10, but aside from having to replace those once a year, the 1100 is bulletproof. Never jams and shoots accurate as any standard trap/skeet gun.
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