Paul Krugman Recommends 'Death Panels' and 'VAT Tax' to Help Balance Budget

Quote from Danman114 : I have no doubt that propagandists use the term... They actually use it much differently than I do. What is also impossible to determine in a government run health care system is at what level to stop services, which is the exact role of supposed "death panels". The problem is, showing you are making a judicious use of resources. If there is a health care company that does a poor job at the 'death panel' job, then they would eventually go out of business. This isn't the case with a government run system.

Why not? It very well could be (and frankly IS the case). Elected officials are our "board of directors." If we hold them accountable for the performance of the government agencies, and not just empty sloganeering and broad ideologies, which is what I think a lot of people intuitively do, then they would ensure that government agencies do their job right.

But, just to look at it only from the cost side, I hope you're aware that Medicare cost [hhs.gov] has risen by about 9% annually whereas health care premiums have risen at about 10% annually, since the 60s. As many have rightly pointed out, we don't have a Medicare problem; we have a health care problem.

Quote from Danman114 : As for the morality of taking care of the sick, I couldn't agree more. Prior to the government getting really involved, most Boston area hospitals were either run by the Church or in conjunction with local universities (or both). The problem began when government stuck its fingers in this charity work, and then created a profitable business out of it, eventually forcing out many non-profit hospitals and charities.

Government made medicine profit-able? What era are you referring to?

Anyway, to my mind, it was technology and surplus income that made medicine such a profitable business. I don't remember the statistic exactly but the share of GDP we spend on food + clothing + health care hasn't changed since the 60s. What has happened is that food + clothing has become much cheaper (thanks to technology) and those savings have been transferred to the health care industry. A good argument to be made here is, well, may be food and clothing prices haven't risen because government doesn't buy lots of foods or cloths. There are issues of subsidies, etc., but I think the bottom line is technology.

Besides, even if you're right, it doesn't matter because there's no turning the clock back. Today, the difference between the quality of life that money can buy and what is available for free is simply enormous. That wasn't the case even back in 1965.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feat...-P4HwI4i5I

Paul Krugman, a major architect and hero of the Keynesian left, admits Death Panels and higher taxes will be needed by 2020-2035.

Let's see if the media (and Krugman himself) will apologize to Sarah Palin and the conservatives who said exactly that, but were mocked and called racists and fear mongers.

transcript (audio is a bit unclear)

Quote : “Eventually we do have a problem. That the population is getting older, health care costs are rising,” Krugman said during his lecture at Sixth & I Historic Synagogue in Washington, D.C. “There is this question of how we’re going to pay for the programs.” “The year 2025, the year 2030, something is going to have to give,” he added. “We’re going to need more revenue … Surely it will require some sort of middle class taxes as well.” “We won’t be able to pay for the kind of government the society will want without some increase in taxes … on the middle class, maybe a value added tax.” “And we’re also going to have to make decisions about health care, doc pay for health care that has no demonstrated medical benefits. So the snarky version, which I shouldn’t even say because it will get me in trouble, is death panels and sales taxes is how we do this.”

Quote from Epiphyte : Why is it OK for your private insurance to have Death Panels and not the Government?

Because private insurance isn't the government. Death panels are necessary. It's important to bring them up so that people are aware that decisions will be made and they might not like who is making those decisions.

While I am for national health care, I trust private insurance death panels more than government death panels. My grandparents in Britain would have lived much longer if they were in the US and had insurance. It's purely annecdotal, but when these things happen close to home, it strongly helps us form our opinions.

Hopefully, one day, I'll have coverage from both the government and insurance, so I'll get the best of both worlds.

Quote from Neo Tocqueville : Why not? It very well could be (and frankly IS the case). Elected officials are our "board of directors." If we hold them accountable for the performance of the government agencies, and not just empty sloganeering and broad ideologies, which is what I think a lot of people intuitively do, then they would ensure that government agencies do their job right.

I'm not sure how to hold them accountable. The election system is terribly flawed. People who vote are not really qualified to decide on who to vote for. It's incredibly depressing.

In theory, you may be right. In practice, it's a disaster.

Quote from riznick : Because private insurance isn't the government. Death panels are necessary. It's important to bring them up so that people are aware that decisions will be made and they might not like who is making those decisions. While I am for national health care, I trust private insurance death panels more than government death panels. My grandparents in Britain would have lived much longer if they were in the US and had insurance. It's purely annecdotal, but when these things happen close to home, it strongly helps us form our opinions. Hopefully, one day, I'll have coverage from both the government and insurance, so I'll get the best of both worlds.

And honestly, this whole thing with death panels is nothing but scare tactics. We spend way too much on ICU/aggressive care for terminal patients. Doctors need to more frank with families/patients and families/patients need to be more realistic.

Long but a good read: http://www.newyorker.com/reportin...ntPage=all

Quote from rrc06 : And honestly, this whole thing with death panels is nothing but scare tactics. We spend way too much on ICU/aggressive care for terminal patients. Doctors need to more frank with families/patients and families/patients need to be more realistic. Long but a good read: http://www.newyorker.com/reportin...ntPage=all

A friend of mine exhausted his insurance benefits and spent everything he had to keep his wife alive as long as possible. I think it prolonged her life a few months. He lost his home and everything. He moved in with his parents at around 50 without a dime to his name.

He said that he doesn't regret it at all and would do it again. I'd do the same. I wouldn't think twice about sacrificing every last cent I have to prolong a family member's life.

I understand that the government and health care companies couldn't survive doing that. There are lines that they need to set. They shouldn't cross those lines for anyone because of or age or social status. I accept that and understand it.

Quote from riznick : A friend of mine exhausted his insurance benefits and spent everything he had to keep his wife alive as long as possible. I think it prolonged her life a few months. He lost his home and everything. He moved in with his parents at around 50 without a dime to his name. He said that he doesn't regret it at all and would do it again. I'd do the same. I wouldn't think twice about sacrificing every last cent I have to prolong a family member's life. I understand that the government and health care companies couldn't survive doing that. There are lines that they need to set. They shouldn't cross those lines for anyone because of or age or social status. I accept that and understand it.

Exactly. For the extraordinary heroic care, it should come down to the patient and their families to provide those resources.

Quote from riznick : He said that he doesn't regret it at all and would do it again. I'd do the same. I wouldn't think twice about sacrificing every last cent I have to prolong a family member's life.

I can't help but think you didn't even bother reading the article linked. It should be required reading for everyone in this country who ever wants to use the term "death panels" or frankly even talk about the state of health care in this country.

Quote from travathian : I can't help but think you didn't even bother reading the article linked. It should be required reading for everyone in this country who ever wants to use the term "death panels" or frankly even talk about the state of health care in this country.

It's quite reasonable for me to call them that. Want an open discussion? Don't pretend that death panels wont exist.

I'm not sure why you quoted that specific line of text, however. I stated that I understand that providers have to draw the line somewhere, and that when it gets personal you might not want any line drawn.

Quote from riznick : Two of my grandparents died early due to national health care "death panels". It's quite reasonable for me to call them that. Want an open discussion? Don't pretend that death panels wont exist.

Thanks for proving my point, you obviously didn't read the article. It isn't possible to have an open discussion with someone who is ignorant about the situation or the facts at hand. Come back when you have actually educated yourself instead of just blathering useless anecdotes.

edit: If you actually read the article, you will "get" why I quoted that part of your post in particular.

Quote from OhNoItsDEVO : Interesting bit of news http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2010/11/14/paul-krugman-recommends-death-panels-help-balance-budget [newsbusters.org]

Oh goodie....a blog claiming Krugman recommends death panels.

Quote from travathian : Thanks for proving my point, you obviously didn't read the article. It isn't possible to have an open discussion with someone who is ignorant about the situation or the facts at hand. Come back when you have actually educated yourself instead of just blathering useless anecdotes. edit: If you actually read the article, you will "get" why I quoted that part of your post in particular.

I read some of it. I'll give it some more consideration later.

But who is more difficult to have a conversation with here? Answer: it's you.
Perhaps you could explain the article a bit so that people understand what you are referring to. Don't expect everyone on a forum to read a 10 page essay when you can give us the cliffs.

You call me ignorant about the situation, but it is you who exhibits ignorance. You don't have enough details to call me ignorant on the situation.

The anecdotes that I provided were quite useful and appropriate.

Quote from Radeck : Paul Krugman, a major architect and hero of the Keynesian left, admits Death Panels and higher taxes will be needed by 2020-2035.

actually I assumed probably in the mere next couple years. But this is just all a matter of basic mathematics.. People get older cost more to support in older age. More surgeries to prolong life etc.. At some point it becomes a cost issue.

As for taxes.. I actually thought a VAT tax would be the table in the next couple years. But people won't like that because it taxes everyone rather than a particular group. Yes, those with more money buy more and will pay more.. But, since everyone will feel it, people will gripe.

Now when the middle class feels a tax increase that's when sh*t hits the fan.. b/c that's when people will become active and wonder how we ever got to that point. At that point they will turn on MSNBC and be made aware that it's Bush's fault..

Im confused, are people seriously suggesting that private health care insurance companies never disagree with doctors and have never once let someone die while trying to deny a procedure??
Lets not even mention health care companies fighting tooth and nail to attribute illnesses to pre-existing conditions.

Health care companies are traded on the stock market for christ sake and are in the business of denying as much care as possible in the name of profit, exactly how dumb do you have to be to use the word death panels without realizing it applies equally if not MORE to private health insurance?