Republicans stopped the Keystone Pipeline

Quote from Radeck : maybe that's because this is something that has been done for decades when infrastructure projects are involved that are of benefit to society or a regional portion thereof as a whole, rather than one company who wants to build a mall or a shopping center that only lines their pockets and is not a basic infrastructure project.

Wait, you're serious?



Wait, you're from TEXAS and you're pretending oil companies are in it for "us"?



Where the rubber meets the road, folks. ED is bad when private companies use it unless it's a project being done by a private company that I like. Then it's fine. Because apparently a pipeline owned by a foreign company that will be taking their profits home with them is exactly like a water pipe.

Quote from loop610bob : Wait, you're serious? Wait, you're from TEXAS and you're pretending oil companies are in it for "us"? Where the rubber meets the road, folks. ED is bad when private companies use it unless it's a project being done by a private company that I like. Then it's fine. Because apparently a pipeline owned by a foreign company that will be taking their profits home with them is exactly like a water pipe.

try to think a little past your nose, okay? EVERYONE, including you, would benefit directly or indirectly from additional oil and refined products supply...not everyone benfits from a shopping mall built over some people's house.

Most utilities in this country are privately owned. The electricity that powers you computer> it came on power lines and networks built by private companies using ED. The water and sewer and gas that serve your home? ditto. The oils and refined products that fuel your car, ditto.

are all those companies in it for 'us' as you naively mock and laugh and demonstrate your ignorance? no, of course not, they are a bossiness, but the public benefits as a whole...the same applies to oil and refineries...a private business that provides for the general public...a shopping mall does no such thing.

But keep laughing...you only demonstrate your lack of understanding how the economy works and how infrastructure/utility businesses and the public have a symbiotic relationship.

Any thing else you have to add?

Quote from Radeck : try to think a little past your nose, okay? EVERYONE, including you, would benefit directly or indirectly from additional oil and refined products supply...not everyone benfits from a shopping mall built over some people's house.

How exactly would I benefit from a Canadian company refining and shipping oil to South America?

Actually, that's the body of the joke. My friends and I in Houston will benefit. My PLC and oil services buddies will maintain the pipe. My legal friends will soak up easy retainer dollars. And I will benefit from the added economic activity, since Houston is the city that actually makes things like pipelines and refinement possible.

The punch line is the rest of you. You will get nothing for your ED property. You will get no continuing economic activity. You think they're going to hire and train someone in Nebraska or Kansas to sit there and stare at the pipe when there are armies of trained professional companies in Houston that monitor pipe thousands of miles away already?

Quote : Most utilities in this country are privately owned. The electricity that powers you computer> it came on power lines and networks built by private companies using ED. The water and sewer and gas that serve your home? ditto. The oils and refined products that fuel your car, ditto.

The day I never thought I'd see if I lived to a hundred. A rabid, crazy conservative arguing that an unregulated (ie NOT A UTILITY) foreign company should be able to force Americans to sell their land. Well, at least the company you chose to defend is a good and decent company that would never attempt to strong arm land owners.

Quote : “Their land agent told us the very first day she met with us, you either take the money or they’re going to condemn the land,” Mrs. Kelso said.

Whoopsie!

Quote : are all those companies in it for 'us' as you naively mock and laugh and demonstrate your ignorance? no, of course not, they are a bossiness, but the public benefits as a whole...the same applies to oil and refineries...a private business that provides for the general public...a shopping mall does no such thing.

Is that corporatism or communism? I can't tell.

Quote : But keep laughing...you only demonstrate your lack of understanding how the economy works and how infrastructure/utility businesses and the public have a symbiotic relationship.

Uh, you know I work at a utility, right?

You're a hoot. You're a caricature of a caricature.

Quote from Grinner : How would Keystone have had any impact on current gas prices?

wouldn't just the approval of the pipeline have brought prices down?

Quote from papitosabe : wouldn't just the approval of the pipeline have brought prices down?

Oil's price has a floor. No amount of supply will change that. That's what happens when there's a price fixing monopoly.

Quote from HEATBaller : Obama authorize another Refinery to be built none have been Authorized since 78 I think, now that would definitely ease gas prices. That would be a win for the American people.

You mean the one to be built in Columbia?

Quote from loop610bob : You're a hoot. You're a caricature of a caricature.

And one of the most entertaining and ineffective conservatives posting here.

Quote from loop610bob : The punch line is the rest of you. You will get nothing for your ED property. You will get no continuing economic activity. You think they're going to hire and train someone in Nebraska or Kansas to sit there and stare at the pipe when there are armies of trained professional companies in Houston that monitor pipe thousands of miles away already?

There will be some. There are a few hundred pipeline workers in Cushing, OK. Why have them there if they can monitor it from Houston, or Canada, or wherever. Mainly for pipeline inspections, maintenance, accident response etc. To say there will be no continuing economic activity is incorrect. Minimal perhaps, but some certainly.

Quote : The day I never thought I'd see if I lived to a hundred. A rabid, crazy conservative arguing that an unregulated (ie NOT A UTILITY) foreign company should be able to force Americans to sell their land.

Most states regulate pipelines. All states can regulate them if they choose.

Quote : Well, at least the company you chose to defend is a good and decent company that would never attempt to strong arm land owners. Whoopsie!

Slant from a landowner perpetuated by people who do not understand how condemnation works. There is voluntary condemnation and involuntary. If you start out doing voluntary, you cannot switch to involuntary later under most circumstances. So for projects with site specific requirements, you start out going with involuntary. Which means yes, we make an offer but if you refuse to even negotiate, we will get it anyway and a court will decide how much you get later. I have no doubt the pipeline company let people know this up front, and were probably required to in some states.

For things like utilities, it is almost always involuntary acquisition. Voluntary really only works when you have a project you can locate on any of multiple suitable sites without having to redo engineering, environmental impacts etc.

Quote : Uh, you know I work at a utility, right?

Yah, what do you do at a utility company? A lineman knows pretty much nothing about easement and ROW acquisition. Do you work in the legal department, senior management?

I mean, you probably have janitors and customer service reps working for the utility... but I doubt their input on this topic would carry any special weight.

Quote from ram0029 : There will be some. There are a few hundred pipeline workers in Cushing, OK. Why have them there if they can monitor it from Houston, or Canada, or wherever. Mainly for pipeline inspections, maintenance, accident response etc. To say there will be no continuing economic activity is incorrect. Minimal perhaps, but some certainly.

Minimal to the point of dishonesty on the part of Keystone. Sure, they'll have a firm that does pump station checks and the like but that's garbage, low skill work.

"Here's a S7-300 manual, a box of kitty litter, and a $50k salary. Try not to f@#$ it up."

Actually, they're probably AB guys. Hmmm. Which do you think they'll use and why?

Quote : Slant from a landowner perpetuated by people who do not understand how condemnation works. There is voluntary condemnation and involuntary. If you start out doing voluntary, you cannot switch to involuntary later under most circumstances. So for projects with site specific requirements, you start out going with involuntary. Which means yes, we make an offer but if you refuse to even negotiate, we will get it anyway and a court will decide how much you get later. I have no doubt the pipeline company let people know this up front, and were probably required to in some states.

That was a very cut and dry approach to a subject that isn't that cut and dry, is it?

It turns out that Americans are very strongly against eminent domain. I understand the process, but this is one of those disconnects between the public and those in the industry. If Keystone announced tomorrow how many properties were being ED'd, this thing would be so politically toxic that it would fall apart that minute.

Quote : For things like utilities, it is almost always involuntary acquisition. Voluntary really only works when you have a project you can locate on any of multiple suitable sites without having to redo engineering, environmental impacts etc.

And this isn't a utility. And this isn't a pipe going from Dallas to Houston. It's a monster.

Quote : Yah, what do you do at a utility company? A lineman knows pretty much nothing about easement and ROW acquisition. Do you work in the legal department, senior management? I mean, you probably have janitors and customer service reps working for the utility... but I doubt their input on this topic would carry any special weight.

Oh, haha. I see what you did there.

Key's GC handling Texas's name is Jeff. I think he's doing Oklahoma too.

So now, where exactly are you in the process?

Any other questions of my fitness to have an opinion?

Quote from loop610bob : Hmmm. Which do you think they'll use and why?

I take it you withdraw your previous statement that there will be no continuing economic benefit?

Quote : That was a very cut and dry approach to a subject that isn't that cut and dry, is it?

Would you rather it it be confusing, murky and rife with gray areas?

Quote : It turns out that Americans are very strongly against eminent domain.

It turns out this is another mis-characterization. Your almost as good at that as Keystone! Americans are strongly in favor of having water to drink, electricity, roads to drive on, cheap energy in general. ED is the only way those things are possible on the scale required. Most Americans have no issues with the proper exercise of ED, especially when it only effects someone else and they get to reap the benefit. It is a necessary evil for society to function. Some portion of those Americans are opposed to ED when it affects them personally (NIMBY).

I would hazard a guess and say most Americans are strongly against the misuse of ED, but that is not the same as being against ED in general now is it.

Quote : I understand the process, but this is one of those disconnects between the public and those in the industry. If Keystone announced tomorrow how many properties were being ED'd, this thing would be so politically toxic that it would fall apart that minute.

It is already known for a significant portion of the pipeline. It could break a thousand, but 4 or 500 is more likely. I think you grossly overestimate the political will. The majority, probably the vast majority of landowners took or will take the money and laugh(ed) all the way to the bank. Some percentage of those going to condemnation are simply disputing the offered amount and wanting more money. There a few that are fighting it for other reasons, environmental concerns, on principle etc... they have the right to their day in court, they may even win though I doubt it.

Quote : And this isn't a utility. And this isn't a pipe going from Dallas to Houston. It's a monster.

The ability to move our energy supplies quickly and cheaply is critical infrastructure. ED was never limited to utilities, accepting the common understanding of what utilities means here, nor should it be.

As for the size of the line, there are something like over 50,000 miles of trunk pipelines in the US. 10's of thousands more miles of collector lines. Some of these lines are thousands of miles long, Keystone is only relevant for what it is carrying and who it is owned by.... and that seems to be the main complaint (not the only to be sure).

The kicker of all this, if TC had simply built it in pieces (much like what they are going ahead and doing now), and only filed for the permit at the end to cross the border and make it transnational, most people would never have even heard of it.

Quote : Oh, haha. I see what you did there. Key's GC handling Texas's name is Jeff. I think he's doing Oklahoma too. So now, where exactly are you in the process? Any other questions of my fitness to have an opinion?

So you know someone? or what? What do you do for a utility?

Me, I have acquired over 1500 miles of easements and ROW in my career so far. I am currently acquiring easements for a 9 mile water line. A decent percentage of it went through condemnation.

How would you like our oil and natural gas moved throughout our country? Hundreds of thousands if not millions of loads hauled by tanker trucks and railcars at a hefty price premium?

How would you like the enormous amounts of energy we purchase from other countries to be transported in our country?

Do you recognize the need for pipelines? If so, how do you propose they be built without ED being utilized? Only government owned pipelines allowed?

Quote from ram0029 : I take it you withdraw your previous statement that there will be no continuing economic benefit?

Ah, arguing with lawyers. Where everything is a summary judgement and they don't understand why everyone hates them.

Quote : Would you rather it it be confusing, murky and rife with gray areas?

It is murky and rife with gray. It just happens that Joe Redneck Land Owner doesn't know how to pull the levers and exploit those areas the same way your average AmLaw top 50 does. Shocker, right?

I couldn't help but notice you didn't cite Denbury. Cut and dry, right? I'm sure with enough money and appeals they'll find a way to convince a judge they're a common carrier though.

Quote : It turns out this is another mis-characterization. Your almost as good at that as Keystone!

Well then! Let's take them one at a time!

Quote : Americans are strongly in favor of having water to drink,

Which this is not.

Quote : electricity,

Which this is not.

Quote : roads to drive on,

Which this is not.

Quote : cheap energy in general.

Which this is not.

Quote : ED is the only way those things are possible on the scale required. Most Americans have no issues with the proper exercise of ED, especially when it only effects someone else and they get to reap the benefit. It is a necessary evil for society to function. Some portion of those Americans are opposed to ED when it affects them personally (NIMBY).

Ok. Does someone disagree with that?

Quote : I would hazard a guess and say most Americans are strongly against the misuse of ED, but that is not the same as being against ED in general now is it.

Nope. Is there anyone suggesting otherwise?

Quote : It is already known for a significant portion of the pipeline. It could break a thousand, but 4 or 500 is more likely. I think you grossly overestimate the political will.

I absolutely agree, but it's because Keystone has been working to keep it quiet. It's incredible to me that they've been able to get this far without anyone blasting them on the ED thing. Their handlers deserve a cookie for that.

But it doesn't make it right.

Quote : The majority, probably the vast majority of landowners took or will take the money and laugh(ed) all the way to the bank. Some percentage of those going to condemnation are simply disputing the offered amount and wanting more money. There a few that are fighting it for other reasons, environmental concerns, on principle etc... they have the right to their day in court, they may even win though I doubt it.

I doubt it also, but you defeat a project like this via death by a thousand cuts. On the other hand, let's be honest. The table is slanted completely in Keystone's favor and has been since the first minute. Joe Land Owner was screwed the minute Keystone drew a line on his land. There is no shame in simply acknowledging that.

Quote : The ability to move our energy supplies quickly and cheaply is critical infrastructure. ED was never limited to utilities, accepting the common understanding of what utilities means here, nor should it be.

Sure. The standard as I understand it is common carrier. Is Keystone a common carrier? With enough black magic in court, they might be. In the real world? Of course not. They are what we call in the real world, liars.

Quote : As for the size of the line, there are something like over 50,000 miles of trunk pipelines in the US. 10's of thousands more miles of collector lines. Some of these lines are thousands of miles long, Keystone is only relevant for what it is carrying and who it is owned by.... and that seems to be the main complaint (not the only to be sure).

My complaint is that ED is predicated on the belief that it will serve the greater good, as you know. A Canadian company pipes oil to Houston, where it is refined and sent to South America. Is that enough of a common good? Does a Nebraska land owner now need to bear Canada and El Salvador's needs? I say no.

Quote : The kicker of all this, if TC had simply built it in pieces (much like what they are going ahead and doing now), and only filed for the permit at the end to cross the border and make it transnational, most people would never have even heard of it.

Also true. I don't know why they chose to go whole hog and to use the Republican party as cover. That seems incredibly foolish to me. Nobody cares about a pipe from Cushing to Houston. Nobody cares about a pipe from Cushing to etc. etc.

Quote : So you know someone? or what? What do you do for a utility?

I live in Houston, man. I have college buddies in all the major oils, all the oil services companies that matter, and all the big laws in town (which are all energy practices). It just happens to be the part of the economy that I'm plugged into.

I personally work for a public utility that is not involved in oil but we have pipelines, ROW issues, regulators, etc. I prefer not to name my title because I could be easily found based on that information alone and Podium users scare me.

Quote : How would you like our oil and natural gas moved throughout our country? Hundreds of thousands if not millions of loads hauled by tanker trucks and railcars at a hefty price premium? How would you like the enormous amounts of energy we purchase from other countries to be transported in our country? Do you recognize the need for pipelines? If so, how do you propose they be built without ED being utilized? Only government owned pipelines allowed?

I have no issue with pipelines. I have no issue with ED. I have no issue with private ownership of the pipes, pump stations, etc. My complaint is narrowly focused here. In my view, Keystone does not satisfy the public good part of the "ED fairness equation" (if you get my meaning). They will not say the energy will be sold here. They are drastically, almost comically overselling the economic benefits the pipe will bring to locals along the way. And they are not by any stretch going to be a common carrier, which is pretty much the ONLY DAMN REQUIREMENT in Texas (I mean seriously dude, the ED "paperwork" is one friggin page and only asks that you be common carrier. They can't even do that right) to ED property.

Keystone decided to pull rank and go thermonuclear war by bringing in the Republican party. Fine, have it their way. Obama's peeps pulled the enviro card, something we both know Keystone is liable on. Obama will find things because there are things to find. There's always things to find.

Arrogance to the point of idiocy. Yea, I'm not a fan of Key.

My reply was certainly snark-laden but I'd like to hear your take on why my line of thinking is wrong, if you think so.