Blackwater Soldiers Run Over Iraqi Woman

what's up with this blame the victim for causing their own death? wow just wow

Quote from PaintTheSkyGrey : And disable the vehicle, cutting the rest of the convoy off from the lead vehicle? That's brilliant. Maybe you should think about becoming a military strategist.

wtf are you talking about? Can you not see how wide that street is? Plenty of room to go around if a car breaks down or gets "disabled".

Quote from PaintTheSkyGrey : Nope. You've been watching too many movies.

Seriously? Seems like a logical thought process to me...I've never seen loosely packed explosive devices, have you? Isn't that because a violent bump or drop might set them off?

Quote from 124nic8 : Driving on the wrong side of the street makes this clearly the driver's fault. Should an elderly woman look both ways? Yes. But so should a driver when driving on the wrong side of the street.

agreed, and perhaps this is the crux of the argument. When driving on the wrong side of the street, the convoy needs to be aware of other people/vehicles. They can't just drive over vehicles and people all under the excuse of "well you can't stop a convoy or you're a sitting duck". They can't just say "f*ck everyone else and their rules, we are a convoy so we are incapable of stopping".

PTSG, what is your threshold of irresponsible/morally questionable behavior in the name of "you can't stop a convoy or you're a sitting duck"? If they ran over 10 people, would you draw the line and say "OK maybe something is wrong with the way we are conducting ourselves"? 20 people? Running over cars?

Quote from 124nic8 : Looking at the video more carefully, it appears the driver swerved right to hit the woman cause there was oncoming traffic to his left he was likely distracted by. Driving on the wrong side of the street makes this clearly the driver's fault. Should an elderly woman look both ways? Yes. But so should a driver when driving on the wrong side of the street. I'd like to think that if the driver was not distracted by oncoming traffic, he would have swerved to avoid hitting a woman who was clearly headed towards the street. BTW, are you claiming the driver of a Humvee cannot see the right front corner of his vehicle?

I'm saying that you're trying to focus on what's on your left and directly ahead. The vehicle is very wide, and there's a lot of obstruction between you and the right side of the windshield and passenger window. That's why you always have someone in the passenger seat. That's just how it is.

Here's a picture I took while i was in the passenger seat of a humvee, and keep in mind this is actually a larger field of view than you normally have because my phone was closer to the window than one would sit:



The driver has about the same perspective, only mirrored. There's a reason you always have a TC with you.

Quote from joer316 : wtf are you talking about? Can you not see how wide that street is? Plenty of room to go around if a car breaks down or gets "disabled".

You mean, into the traffic off to the right?

Quote from joer316 : Seriously? Seems like a logical thought process to me...I've never seen loosely packed explosive devices, have you? Isn't that because a violent bump or drop might set them off?

Where have you seen explosive devices, period? And what does looseness have to do with anything?

If you thought a violent bump might set off a VBIED, you'd have to wonder why they insist on driving on Iraqi streets with all of the potholes and shit. The commonly used explosives aren't going to be that volatile, simply because the bomb-makers want to see them reach the target. They're not dumb. They generally use ammonium nitrate, industrial explosives, or homemade plastic explosives. All of these are fairly safe until a blasting cap or other detonation charge is in place.

Quote from joer316 : PTSG, what is your threshold of irresponsible/morally questionable behavior in the name of "you can't stop a convoy or you're a sitting duck"? If they ran over 10 people, would you draw the line and say "OK maybe something is wrong with the way we are conducting ourselves"? 20 people? Running over cars? [/B]

I would say that it would lie with the discretion of those involved at the time. I am not here to play 20/20 hindsight.

Quote from PaintTheSkyGrey : Attachment 1141470 You mean, into the traffic off to the right?

those care are moving and are ahead of the convoy, there is plenty of space.

Quote from PaintTheSkyGrey : Where have you seen explosive devices, period? And what does looseness have to do with anything? If you thought a violent bump might set off a VBIED, you'd have to wonder why they insist on driving on Iraqi streets with all of the potholes and shit. The commonly used explosives aren't going to be that volatile, simply because the bomb-makers want to see them reach the target. They're not dumb. They generally use ammonium nitrate, industrial explosives, or homemade plastic explosives. All of these are fairly safe until a blasting cap or other detonation charge is in place.

fair answer

Quote from PaintTheSkyGrey : I would say that it would lie with the discretion of those involved at the time. I am not here to play 20/20 hindsight.

interesting...so you can comment on everything but this, eh?

Here's a video of soldiers executing the same SOP I describe:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fbBRthe0q8

Quote from joer316 : those care are moving and are ahead of the convoy, there is plenty of space.

I'd rather knock the solitary car out of the way than have to deal with maneuvering my convoy through who knows what kind of traffic further up ahead.

Quote from joer316 : interesting...so you can comment on everything but this, eh?

I'm simply describing why they did what they did at the time, per training and circumstances. I'm not judging what they did in any way. I've said that it's not morally right. However, that's what happened and I can understand why, given the training and experience I have with the matter.

Quote from PaintTheSkyGrey : I'm simply describing why they did what they did at the time, per training and circumstances. I'm not judging what they did in any way. I've said that it's not morally right. However, that's what happened and I can understand why, given the training and experience I have with the matter.

Fine, so why can't you "simply describe" what your threshold is of irresponsible/morally questionable behavior in the name of "you can't stop a convoy or you're a sitting duck"? If they ran over 10 people, would you draw the line and say "OK maybe something is wrong with the way we are conducting ourselves"? 20 people? Running over cars?

Can you think of any examples where you disagree with a military decision?
If you consider this acceptable, it makes me wonder what you consider unacceptable. Do you support all the "wars on terror"? What do you think of Ron Paul's foreign policy?

Quote from PaintTheSkyGrey : I'm saying that you're trying to focus on what's on your left and directly ahead. The vehicle is very wide, and there's a lot of obstruction between you and the right side of the windshield and passenger window. That's why you always have someone in the passenger seat. That's just how it is. Here's a picture I took while i was in the passenger seat of a humvee, and keep in mind this is actually a larger field of view than you normally have because my phone was closer to the window than one would sit: The driver has about the same perspective, only mirrored. There's a reason you always have a TC with you.

From that photo, it appears the driver would have a better view to the right than left.

But that photo does not show the vehicle columns which limit the view.

IOW, due to this and the limitations you describe, it's really not representative.

Quote from 124nic8 : From that photo, it appears the driver would have a better view to the right than left. But that photo does not show the vehicle columns which limit the view. IOW, due to this and the limitations you describe, it's really not representative.

The driver would not have the additional view of the passenger window to allow for a better understanding of right-side activity.

Quote from PaintTheSkyGrey : I'd rather knock the solitary car out of the way than have to deal with maneuvering my convoy through who knows what kind of traffic further up ahead.

traffic further up ahead is irrelevant at this time, it will exist regardless of whether or not the convoy vehicle chooses to ease right or swerve left for the turning car. There is room for either choice to be made comfortably, and as you show in the video you just posted, the convoy vehicles are used to maneuvering around other vehicles, even going up on the sidewalks to avoid other vehicles.

Admit it, what we have here are a couple of bad apples giving the rest a bad name. In what galaxy is running civilians over acceptable? Seems like the war has distorted your interpretation of right and wrong. I don't blame you for it, war does horrible things to people. But being a part of a convoy doesn't give you license to murder innocent people at will

Quote from joer316 : Fine, so why can't you "simply describe" what your threshold is of irresponsible/morally questionable behavior in the name of "you can't stop a convoy or you're a sitting duck"? If they ran over 10 people, would you draw the line and say "OK maybe something is wrong with the way we are conducting ourselves"? 20 people? Running over cars? Can you think of any examples where you disagree with a military decision? If you consider this acceptable, it makes me wonder what you consider unacceptable. Do you support all the "wars on terror"? What do you think of Ron Paul's foreign policy?

My threshold? I'd try to avoid hitting as many people as possible. However, I'm also not going to allow my platoon to get killed in a convoy because I hesitated at the wrong moment. It's very easy to armchair quarterback this when you're unable to perceive the risk of having your gunners being killed by sniper fire, or having your vehicle blown up by an RPG-7.

It's not like they were gunning down civilians for no reason. It's not like they were driving up on the sidewalk hitting a ton of civilians. Is it a tragedy that she got hit? Yes. But it's a situation I can at least understand.

fair answer, but will you admit that that mentality begets more "insurgents"? In other words, if the woman who got run over has a husband or child...how do you think they will react to this? If it was my family, I'd be lookin for payback...


please respond to the second part of my post that you quoted above.

Quote from joer316 : traffic further up ahead is irrelevant at this time, it will exist regardless of whether or not the convoy vehicle chooses to ease right or swerve left for the turning car. There is room for either choice to be made comfortably, and as you show in the video you just posted, the convoy vehicles are used to maneuvering around other vehicles, even going up on the sidewalks to avoid other vehicles. Admit it, what we have here are a couple of bad apples giving the rest a bad name. In what galaxy is running civilians over acceptable? Seems like the war has distorted your interpretation of right and wrong. Being a part of a convoy doesn't give you license to murder innocent people at will

That's your opinion, which you are entitled to. However, I've answered your questions sufficiently. I'm sorry that they don't seem to pass your muster, but it is what it is. You've clearly already made up your mind about what occurred and the mentality of those that did it. I'm not sure me explaining anything else to you will make a difference.