Spending, Taxes, And Deficits Are All Lower Today Than When Obama Took Office

edit: you'll forgive me for changing my mind. tmi. sorry brah, gonna have to believe me this time.

Quote from TRNT : I hear this term all the time but I have no idea what it means. Please explain what it means and why it is a good thing. Thanks.

I will give you two examples... WW2 and the Oil Embargo in the 1970's.

While we might have the most advanced military in the world, advanced equipment is useless without the power to operate it. While the outcome of WW2 would still be the same, however without the oil shortages that left German planes grounded and tanks abanoned it would have been a lot more difficult.

In regards to the Oil Embargo, look at how much social and political upheavel resulted from a simple oil embargo. We are much more dependent on it today, and short of a food shortage it would be one of the more crippling things to hit us. Areas of production are highly localized and rely on a huge transportation network to keep things going.

In my state at least, most of the water is pumped out of the ground with electricity and we have about of weeks worth of food in the stories if we are cut off from the outside world. Heck people here still remember the effects of a Matson strike that caused toilet paper shortages.

Even with our advanced military and technology, we could be undone by something as simple as an embargo if enough nations jumped on board. It might not cripple us military, but it would cause enough social upheaval to change the make up of our government.

Quote from 808Lurker : I will give you two examples... WW2 and the Oil Embargo in the 1970's. While we might have the most advanced military in the world, advanced equipment is useless without the power to operate it. While the outcome of WW2 would still be the same, however without the oil shortages that left German planes grounded and tanks abanoned it would have been a lot more difficult. In regards to the Oil Embargo, look at how much social and political upheavel resulted from a simple oil embargo. We are much more dependent on it today, and short of a food shortage it would be one of the more crippling things to hit us. Areas of production are highly localized and rely on a huge transportation network to keep things going. In my state at least, most of the water is pumped out of the ground with electricity and we have about of weeks worth of food in the stories if we are cut off from the outside world. Heck people here still remember the effects of a Matson strike that caused toilet paper shortages. Even with our advanced military and technology, we could be undone by something as simple as an embargo if enough nations jumped on board. It might not cripple us military, but it would cause enough social upheaval to change the make up of our government.

this is not an unreasoble stand and I might respond to it later. But one question. Would energy independence save us any money or lower the price of oil in ordinary times? And if yes, how.

Quote from TRNT : this is not an unreasoble stand and I might respond to it later. But one question. Would energy independence save us any money or lower the price of oil in ordinary times? And if yes, how.

TBH I don't really know, there is too many variables.

The main one would be if we truely adapted ourselves to another fuel besides oil, the price would plummet making it more attractive again. Others include how spread out most of our country is and how public transportation for most of this country is not feasable so we have a reliance of personal vehicles to function.

All I do know is that we could probably grow all the food we need with the resources we have. However, slight disruptions to our energy supply or transportation network can reak havoc to our country.

Just think how much impact that could have during an election year. If the US got hit with a true oil embargo oil spiked up to 200-300 a barrell and gas up to $15-20 a gallon, I am pretty sure a good chunck of the the US vote for (insert polar opposite figure to what you believe Obama/Paul/Romney/Hitler/Queen Victoria) to get the gas prices down.

Quote from 808Lurker : TBH I don't really know, there is too many variables. The main one would be if we truely adapted ourselves to another fuel besides oil, the price would plummet making it more attractive again. Others include how spread out most of our country is and how public transportation for most of this country is not feasable so we have a reliance of personal vehicles to function. All I do know is that we could probably grow all the food we need with the resources we have. However, slight disruptions to our energy supply or transportation network can reak havoc to our country. Just think how much impact that could have during an election year. If the US got hit with a true oil embargo oil spiked up to 200-300 a barrell and gas up to $15-20 a gallon, I am pretty sure a good chunck of the the US vote for (insert polar opposite figure to what you believe Obama/Paul/Romney/Hitler/Queen Victoria) to get the gas prices down.

Let me ask it this way. Say we import X barrels of oil everyday. Say we drill Alaska and start producing X barrels of oil everyday. Do you claim the price of oil would stabilize to a much lower value after the initial shock is worn out?

Let me tell you that I think it would not put even a dent in the price of oil and most if not all economists agree. But fox news and the gop have an agenda and would spread lies. Remember how early Mitch McConnell said his number one priority was to make sure Obama is a one term president?

Quote from TRNT : Let me ask it this way. Say we import X barrels of oil everyday. Say we drill Alaska and start producing X barrels of oil everyday. Do you claim the price of oil would stabilize to a much lower value after the initial shock is worn out?

No.

There is much more to the equation then price, there is safety, convience, comfort and laziness.

Let's say we open up all of Alaska and "drill baby drill" and open up X barrels and gas prices go back down to about $1.50 / gallon. People now will start trading in their gas sipping prius and move back to SUV's and we end up using more gas and prices will rise again.

Why? SUV's are safer, hold more, have more power and are more comfortable. The only reason everyone isn't driving them is the higher cost and the price of gas.

This is an argument I have with environmentalists all the time, you can't force people to restrict themselves and force conservation. Most people don't want to limit their lifestyle.

I wish I kept a bookmark to study that said people who swap out their lightbulbs to CFL's typically used them more. Why? People liked having lights on in the dark, using the CFL's let them save money and have the lights on longer.



Let me tell you that I think it would not put even a dent in the price of oil and most if not all economists agree. But fox news and the gop have an agenda and would spread lies. Remember how early Mitch McConnell said his number one priority was to make sure Obama is a one term president?[/QUOTE]

I call Bullshit on this thread...

Quote from 808Lurker : No. There is much more to the equation then price, there is safety, convience, comfort and laziness. Let's say we open up all of Alaska and "drill baby drill" and open up X barrels and gas prices go back down to about $1.50 / gallon. ....

Huh? Do you think oil prices drop about 60% only in us or in the entire world?

Do you even know the ratio of how much we import to the world consumption? You think it is more than or less than 10%? Please first answer and then look it up.

Quote from horskj : I call Bullshit on this thread...

Well that does it.

/podium

Quote from TRNT : Huh? Do you think oil prices drop about 60% only in us or in the entire world?

Sorry I not following your point. Where did you get the 60% number from?

Quote : Do you even know the ratio of how much we import to the world consumption? You think it is more than or less than 10%? Please first answer and then look it up.

I will answer before I look it up.

I guess the US uses 2/3 of the world's oil production and we import about 1/2 of what we use. My reasoning is: We use more then everyone else and from just hearsay (not confirmed) that US production has been scaled back to wait for higher prices.

Ok, off to look things up.

http://www.consumerenergyreport.c...-oil-from/

Quote : The United States imported about 58% of the petroleum

Not bad, my estimate was a little low.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_pe...z1wOH81Inv

Quote : The United States uses about 25% of the world's oil energy.

I was way off here.

Quote from vaultaddict : Well that does it. /podium

I say that because it is like most of the words that come out of this administration, is a lie!!!!!

Quote from TRNT : Huh? Do you think oil prices drop about 60% only in us or in the entire world?

Quote from 808Lurker : Sorry I not following your point. Where did you get the 60% number from?

well, you said $1.50 gas. Assuming today's prices to be around $4, a 60% reduction brings it down to $1.60.

So only for US or the entire world?

Btw your guess was very good.

Quote from TRNT : well, you said $1.50 gas. Assuming today's prices to be around $4, a 60% reduction brings it down to $1.60. So only for US or the entire world? Btw your guess was very good.

Oh, my point was just to illustrate that even if we pumped enough oil out of the ground to significantly drop the price of gas, people would just move back to the old gas guzzling ways and kept consuming it until the price increased back to normal levels. It wasn't hard/fast numbers.

Quote from 808Lurker : Oh, my point was just to illustrate that even if we pumped enough oil out of the ground to significantly drop the price of gas, people would just move back to the old gas guzzling ways and kept consuming it until the price increased back to normal levels. It wasn't hard/fast numbers.

The process of getting larger cars or changing your lifestyle take some time and many gas use such as going to work is not that flexible.

But here is my main point. So US produces an additional X barrels. You say price drops to $1.50 (or whtever other number) in the shorter time. Here is my main question: You think this price drop occurs only for US or the entire world?

If you have not felt it, here is my prediction: any price drop, if any, would be much much less and for the entire world. And other oil producing countries would reduce production in order to bring the price back to whatever was before. In short, energy independence has no appreciable effect on the price of oil.