Samsung 51" 720p Plasma @ Frys B&M $429 PN51E450

Quote from E4300 : http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Panas...Id=4841518 http://www.bestbuy.com/site/LG---...Id=4846601 The most logical explanation is that you have a pair of golden eyes. We see what most reviewers on Best Buy and Amazon see...not much difference between the Panasonic TC-P50UT50 and the LG 50PA4500. The LG actually received better rating than the $800 Panasonic, both at Best Buy and Amazon.

The same golden eyes along with hundreds of posters in AVS forum of CNET ..or any other rating publication( print or online) that I have seen

seriously why are you using these low end TV's as some sort of litmus test?

If you jump another rung on Panasonic ladder and go to the ST50 it is rated far ahead of the UT and many reviewers have said it is currently the "buy" this year from a value standpoint

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-pane...entBody;1r

I also find it curious that you have never stated what high end TV model that you had in your home..calibrated..and didnt see much difference in as compared to and entry level LG

And ..I will ask again...is the new entry level LG plasma better than last years flagship PZ950?

There are plenty of published stats on that one...it is not a stellar TV...but it was a very good price point
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-pane...ncol;lst;1
Something that I can say is a common trait with LG TV's...and I actually own a full backlit LED LE8500...a good TV...but cant compare to the Sony full LED
But the LG was about 40% less than the price of the Sony in actual market pricing

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-pane...ncol;lst;1

Quote from turnne : The same golden eyes along with hundreds of posters in AVS forum of CNET ..or any other rating publication( print or online) that I have seen seriously why are you using these low end TV's as some sort of litmus test? If you jump another rung on Panasonic ladder and go to the ST50 it is rated far ahead of the UT and many reviewers have said it is currently the "buy" this year from a value standpoint http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-pane...entBody;1r I also find it curious that you have never stated what high end TV model that you had in your home..calibrated..and didnt see much difference in as compared to and entry level LG And ..I will ask again...is the new entry level LG plasma better than last years flagship PZ950? There are plenty of published stats on that one...it is not a stellar TV...but it was a very good price point http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-pane...ncol;lst;1 Something that I can say is a common trait with LG TV's...and I actually own a full backlit LED LE8500...a good TV...but cant compare to the Sony full LED But the LG was about 40% less than the price of the Sony in actual market pricing http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-pane...ncol;lst;1

If the Panasonic is a much better TV, then why didn't it receive higher rating than the LG at the Best Buy and Amazon website? Is LG stuffing the ballot boxes? If there is such a big jump in picture quallity then the more expensive Panasonic would have earned 5 stars, and this entry LG 3 stars. Real-world votes don't lie! Another possible explanation is that these people don't see what the EXPERTS see.

Most wanna-be videophiles believe what the experts tell them to believe. A more balanced test is to run double-blind tests using entry level plama TVs and their high-end counterparts. A 3rd party professional will calibrate each TV on a best effort basis. Then you, the average consumer in the street will have an opportunity to rate these TVs. This reminds me of the amplifier shootout by Stereo Review in the late 80s pitting cheap class AB amps against their esoteric counterparts. Even the experts had a difficult time picking out the expensive amps!

Those who read Stereo Review will know what I'm talking about.

Quote from E4300 : If the Panasonic is a much better TV, then why didn't it receive higher rating than the LG at the Best Buy and Amazon website? Is LG stuffing the ballot boxes? If there is such a big jump in picture quallity then the more expensive Panasonic would have earned 5 stars, and this entry LG 3 stars. Real-world votes don't lie! Another possible explanation is that these people don't see what the EXPERTS see. Most wanna-be videophiles believe what the experts tell them to believe. A more balanced test is to run double-blind tests using entry level plama TVs and their high-end counterparts. A 3rd party professional will calibrate each TV on a best effort basis. Then you, the average consumer in the street will have an opportunity to rate these TVs. This reminds me of the amplifier shootout by Stereo Review in the late 80s pitting cheap class AB amps against their esoteric counterparts. Even the experts had a difficult time picking out the expensive amps! Those who read Stereo Review will know what I'm talking about.

LOL...I have read stereo review for more than 2 decades
What two components are you referring to?..as I clearly missed that issue

you are missing one major element here

The expectations of the person who is buying the unit

I really doubt the amazon or best buy website is full of videophiles

Check out the BB reviews of the Insignia Plasmas( rebadged Samsung)...they are great reviews of the Insignia plasma
Its a good TV..I have seen it( in the store)

Would it stand up to a videophile who is analyzing every single element of picture quality

Doubtful

but for a $500 TV buyer..its a great product

Dont assume that the wide array of $$ buyers have the same expectations...or..have even looked at products that are not in their price range

I see that you have not yet told me what particular high end model you have calibrated and tested in your own home for comparison purposes

Your argument suggests that the experts dont know what they are talking about

well..ok....lol..I guess

It might start with black level measurements,,,the LG's are always significantly behind.
I have stats and stats I can post as I have been looking at these things for years

CNET is typically a very good ( tough/impartial) judge on displays
Black level tests results are posted all over the web...while they vary a bit from source to source I think its most important to look at the black level results from the same authority across all models
Variances of testing equipment is then minimized.

Are high end products a good value?...never

Is there a placebo?.....its doubtful to me on any type of major scale

Though, perhaps as you suggest,

There are those with "golden eyes".

This would include CNET and most any video reviewer I have ever read

I can typically see and hear a difference between low and high end products....I have had both in my home in Samsung and there is definitely a difference in their brands products

Are there differences in picture quality adjustments in entry level and high end LG?

There are certainly at least two more picture adjustment settings in the 8000 series Samsung as their are the E450

My mother has a LG PK750 from a couple of years ago...it a very good TV for the 65% off retail that it was purchased for
Black levels are Meh( no matter what picture mode it is in)...but it does have a pretty good feature set and picture adjustment setting menu..the THX mode is actually pretty good and I like the one sheet of glass design

You should look at the new Panasonic VT50...and ask yourself if it is only 8% better than an entry level LG

LOL

Quote from turnne : LOL...I have read stereo review for more than 2 decades What two components are you referring to?..as I clearly missed that issue you are missing one major element here The expectations of the person who is buying the unit I really doubt the amazon or best buy website is full of videophiles Check out the BB reviews of the Insignia Plasmas( rebadged Samsung)...they are great reviews of the Insignia plasma Its a good TV..I have seen it( in the store) Would it stand up to a videophile who is analyzing every single element of picture quality Doubtful but for a $500 TV buyer..its a great product Dont assume that the wide array of $$ buyers have the same expectations...or..have even looked at products that are not in their price range I see that you have not yet told me what particular high end model you have calibrated and tested in your own home for comparison purposes Your argument suggests that the experts dont know what they are talking about well..ok....lol..I guess It might start with black level measurements,,,the LG's are always significantly behind. I have stats and stats I can post as I have been looking at these things for years CNET is typically a very good ( tough/impartial) judge on displays Black level tests results are posted all over the web...while they vary a bit from source to source I think its most important to look at the black level results from the same authority across all models Variances of testing equipment is then minimized. Are high end products a good value?...never Is there a placebo?.....its doubtful to me on any type of major scale Though, perhaps as you suggest, There are those with "golden eyes". This would include CNET and most any video reviewer I have ever read I can typically see and hear a difference between low and high end products....I have had both in my home in Samsung and there is definitely a difference in their brands products Are there differences in picture quality adjustments in entry level and high end LG? There are certainly at least two more picture adjustment settings in the 8000 series Samsung as their are the E450 My mother has a LG PK750 from a couple of years ago...it a very good TV for the 65% off retail that it was purchased for Black levels are Meh( no matter what picture mode it is in)...but it does have a pretty good feature set and picture adjustment setting menu..the THX mode is actually pretty good and I like the one sheet of glass design You should look at the new Panasonic VT50...and ask yourself if it is only 8% better than an entry level LG LOL

Like I said, you have the golden eyes. Most of these videophile experts rely on the mystique of video to make a living. High end video is no different than high end audio.

You continue to harp on black level but the truth is that a moderately lit room can easily wipe out any benefit of higher black level found on expensive HDTV. Why buy a Ferrari that can hit 200 mph when you can't even cruise at 100 mph in the US without going to jail?

This is Slickdeals where most users are interested in getting a good value for their $. Most don't have golden eyes nor care about spotting that non-black sceen in a pitch dark room.

Quote from turnne : I really doubt the amazon or best buy website is full of videophiles My mother has a LG PK750 from a couple of years ago...it a very good TV for the 65% off retail that it was purchased for Black levels are Meh( no matter what picture mode it is in)...but it does have a pretty good feature set and picture adjustment setting menu..the THX mode is actually pretty good and I like the one sheet of glass design

Let's take a look at a few Amazon reviews of the LG 50PA4500 (priced $399 last week at Frys)...

Owning a SONY Bravia LCD and a Panasonic Viera plasma I knew I preferred the plasma and decided on this LG 50-inch for its hard to beat price. After living with it for a few weeks, I'm happy with that decision and I would rate the picture very highly, with a couple minor reservations.

At 10-12 feet this is an excellent picture, very close to my 1080 Panasonic.

I've read that LGs can't compete with Panasonics in black levels, but I don't notice a difference on my sets, and other than the subtle differences mentioned above, the two are extremely similar.

I got this for a friend, but set it up at home side by side with my Samsung PN59d7000 which is of course 1080. If you set this TV up right, it is VERY close to the Samsung.

I'd say these reviewers are a few steps above your Mom in evaluating HDTV, and they all said about the same thing...these entry-level plamsa sets have no problem keeping up with their much more expensive 1080p cousins.

http://www.amazon.com/LG-50PA4500...ewpoints=1

Quote from E4300 : Like I said, you have the golden eyes. Most of these videophile experts rely on the mystique of video to make a living. High end video is no different than high end audio. You continue to harp on black level but the truth is that a moderately lit room can easily wipe out any benefit of higher black level found on expensive HDTV. Why buy a Ferrari that can hit 200 mph when you can't even cruise at 100 mph in the US without going to jail? This is Slickdeals where most users are interested in getting a good value for their $. Most don't have golden eyes nor care about spotting that non-black sceen in a pitch dark room.

They must be a lot of "golden eyes" then..if that is what you want to call it

If you think A/V experts rely on mystique to make a living...why did you mention stereo review a few posts back...since you clearly have no faith in professional AV reviewers?

As for the Ferrari thing...seriously?
One of the reasons I am sure one buys it because of the way in which it drives 100mph( less or more)..not the fact that it can

If speed is your deal..a Honda Civic will go 100mph......as will a Mercedes S class(at 6x the price)
Which one would you rather be driving 100mph..or even 55mph..or even 30mph?

Though like TV's you might not have the "golden" ability to tell the difference

Its performance at all ranges...just like Tv's.

People at Slickdeals..want a slick deal..no matter what level the product sits in the product spectrum range

Clearly there are different budgets that read this forum

For example..I bought my D8000 plasma from a slick deal posted here a few months back
There is an extended thread for those of us that jumped on the Frys deal with 7000 and 8000 series Plasma TV Samsungs at Frys

I suggest you do a search for that thread. Those of us here with "golden eyes" were all over that one...

Ditto with a deal on the Sony XBR LED full backlit(XBR900) as well as the LG's full LED;s from last year..LX9500
On the other side of the spectrum you see Zenith's at Walmart and entry level LG's at Frys on slick deals as well

A slick deal is a slick deal...high or low end products can both be very good buys

There are people here( and AVS forum and myriad of other places) that are concerned with black level. motion control ,screen brightness..and the list goes on

Your argument on not being too see a visible difference in black level doesn't hold water
Clearly..if a set started with a lower black level..even if there are room imperfections that could lessen your gain..the loss in a room would be a loss for anything
Throw in the filter and the loss for a TV without a glare filter would have to be greater
As you said earlier..Physics 101

All things being considered the set that started with the lower black level would still have a lower black level in the same viewing environment

I suggest you go and look at the new Panasonic VT50 at Magnolia Home Theater

That may be the best picture..IMO..I have ever seen

Quote from turnne : They must be a lot of "golden eyes" then..if that is what you want to call it If you think A/V experts rely on mystique to make a living...why did you mention stereo review a few posts back...since you clearly have no faith in professional AV reviewers? As for the Ferrari thing...seriously? One of the reasons I am sure one buys it because of the way in which it drives 100mph( less or more)..not the fact that it can If speed is your deal..a Honda Civic will go 100mph......as will a Mercedes S class(at 6x the price) Which one would you rather be driving 100mph..or even 55mph..or even 30mph? Though like TV's you might not have the "golden" ability to tell the difference Its performance at all ranges...just like Tv's. People at Slickdeals..want a slick deal..no matter what level the product sits in the product spectrum range Clearly there are different budgets that read this forum For example..I bought my D8000 plasma from a slick deal posted here a few months back There is an extended thread for those of us that jumped on the Frys deal with 7000 and 8000 series Plasma TV Samsungs at Frys I suggest you do a search for that thread. Those of us here with "golden eyes" were all over that one... Ditto with a deal on the Sony XBR LED full backlit(XBR900) as well as the LG's full LED;s from last year..LX9500 On the other side of the spectrum you see Zenith's at Walmart and entry level LG's at Frys on slick deals as well A slick deal is a slick deal...high or low end products can both be very good buys There are people here( and AVS forum and myriad of other places) that are concerned with black level. motion control ,screen brightness..and the list goes on Your argument on not being too see a visible difference in black level doesn't hold water Clearly..if a set started with a lower black level..even if there are room imperfections that could lessen your gain..the loss in a room would be a loss for anything Throw in the filter and the loss for a TV without a glare filter would have to be greater As you said earlier..Physics 101 All things being considered the set that started with the lower black level would still have a lower black level in the same viewing environment I suggest you go and look at the new Panasonic VT50 at Magnolia Home Theater That may be the best picture..IMO..I have ever seen

I backed-up my claim with testimonials from others who have compared entry level plasma with their more expensive 1080p counterparts. None of these people see that big improvement that you claimed to see.

No one is forcing you to buy the expensive TV. If you see the huge jump in picture quality, then feel free to fork over more $. It's not my $ that's being flushed down the drain. Samsung and LG are betting that most consumers will not pay a 2-3x price premium for a small increase in picture quality. And the proof in in the earning report. LG and Samsung make $ on HDTV, while Panasonic is still deep in the red.

Quote from E4300 : 2nd best source of video is over-the-air TV (720p/1080i). Other digital TVs from Netflix, Amazon, Time Warner, AT&T, Comcast, Verizon, etc all use some form of video compression to deliver the 720p/1080i video. Therefore, the 1080p set will not provide higher picture resolution with these materials, no matter how close you sit to the TV. Broadcasters will not upgrade the video signal for at least another 10 years due to cost and bandwidth. [....and] Once properly calibrated, this Samsung will look just as good as the more expensive 1080p plasma TV with all 720p/1080i video sources. I plan to put the $ saved toward an OLED HDTV in 5-7 years. I don't want to pay a 50% price premium to milk an extra 5-6% improvement in picture quality with a 50" set.

I am sorry, but you are misinformed. 720p/1080i sources will look better on 1080p displays as compared to these 720p displays.

With 1080i source, no upscaling will be needed; only simple de-interlace from 1080i to 1080p. Also, the 1080p displays will upscale 720p content, filling in twice as many pixels giving you less jagged lines (stair-stepping).

I also do not think that it should be set in stone that at 10 feet it makes no difference whether you are viewing 1080p or 720p. 10 feet is borderline--right on the threshold, depending on the quality of one's vision plus the type of content. Some careful viewers may notice a slight but visible improvement on a 1080p vs. a 720p at 10 feet. I think a safer threshold is around 12 feet. I have tested same model-year Samsung 720p vs. 1080p 50 inch plasmas, and I could say with confidence that I could not tell the difference in resolution (with my imperfect eyesight) after about 12 feet. If I looked closely I could see a slight improvement on certain content (not all) at 10 feet.

At any rate, the 1080p sets are usually a higher build quality with better processing and better features anyway, so there are plenty of reasons to upgrade to a 1080p set vs. a 720p.

These 720p sets are for people who simply cannot afford a 1080p. But if one can afford to spend a bit more, you get a much nicer display when you jump up to the 1080p models.

Also, the original poster said he placed the Samsung side by side with the LG (calibrated). What is his definition of calibrated? Does he mean adjusted? There is quite a difference between simply using some test patterns and making adjustments to a TV and performing a full-scale ISF calibration with a light meter and software plugged into a laptop.

Furthermore, the original poster said the LG had better picture quality than the Samsung. Did he conduct side by side comparisons in the dark?

Black level/contrast is one of the single most important factors affecting picture quality, and the OP conveniently left out this key metric. IF he truly performed a calibration rather than simply an adjustment, then he ought to be able to provide us the black level measurements

I highly doubt that the LG plasmas had blacks as deep as the Samsung. Usually every year LG is in last place in this key area, which is why their plasmas always last in shootouts.

LG's simply have been known for not having the deep blacks you get on a Panasonic or a Samsung.

Quote from turnne : How can you control room lighting 100%? a window...light in an adjacent room or a myriad of other things can effect room control Unless you live alone and/or have the conditioned theater room And frankly I don't see someone who can afford a fully conditioned theater room considering an entry level plasma As for the anti glare filer degrading picture quality? what models models does that apply to? The best of the best plasma's( by anyones reviews) have had anti glare filters for at least the last few years Fox example Panasonic VT or Samsung 8000 series plasma TV's Either brands entry level models dont even come close to their top end models in regard to picture quality or more plainly stated a S series Panasonic compares to a VT..or a Samsung 450 series compares to an 8000? Neither are even close in picture quality or price

Agreed. Best plasma of all time is the Pioneer Kuro 500M/101FD. Second best after the second generation Kuros is Panny VT50. Both of those have anti-glare filters. Not everyone sits and watches their TV in a pristine and sterile light controlled studio. Get real. People put their TV's in rooms with windows and lamps. Light-absorption filters are a very important and useful feature for preserving black levels/contrast and muting reflections in a bright-room. None of them are perfect, but they are still quite useful, and trust me, if you have had plasmas with them and without them, you want the ones with the good filters.

Unfortunately, these bottom of the barrell 720p sets usually don't come with a decent filter, or even any filter at all.

Quote from E4300 : The best material for optical lens is glass. Applying any type of coating on this glass will affect the perceived color and brightness of objects seen thru this glass. This same concept applies to a plasma TV. Black can only be as dark as the screen color in the OFF state. If the source has a given level of brightness and contrast as seen thru clear glass, then the addition of any coating on the glass will reduce the overall brightness and constrast. That's physics 101.

You are a bit confused with your last statement. Plasmas use phosphors, and phosphor comes from the Greek and means "light-bearing". Hence, the phosphors in a plasma are very susceptible to reflecting light that bounces off them. If you have no screen filter, the light from the room which is hitting the front of your panel has nothing to block it from reflecting off the phosphors and washing out the picture. The unobstructed light reflects off the phosphors and they lighten up a great deal, turning a light gray.

The reason the television makers add light-absorption filters to their plasmas is simple and effective. When you add a dark filter to the plasma, the light from the room has to pass through the filter twice before it returns to your eyes. Once as it passes through the filter into the plasma, and then after it reflects off the phosphors, it has to pass right back through it a second time.

However, the light which the panel generates itself by stimulating the phosphors with electrical impulses to light up the pixels, doesn't have to pass through the light aborption filter on the way in, but only passes through the filter on the way out.

Obviously having a dark filter coating is going to result in a display with a lower overall brightness. But by rejecting the ambient light from the room at a two fold rate (because the light has to pass through the filter twice, and not only once), you can keep the pixels darker.

So it is simply a trade-off. Reduced brightness for a theoretical doubling of contrast in ambient light. As plasmas have become more efficient in recent years, and can get brighter while simultaneously using less energy, manufacturers have commensurately made their light-aborption filters darker.

Trust me, plasma manufacturers would love to make their filters even darker, like the glossy jet-black ones you see on Samsung, Sony, Sharp, and Toshiba LED's. Those are several times darker than the ones on plamsa. If they made the filters on a plasma as dark as the ones on an LED, the plasma would be far too dim, or it would be necessary to drive the panel so hard that it would melt down from all the heat.

So PDP makers have a challenge and must make compromises. They can't drive their plasmas too hard because everyone is so concerned about energy conservation these days. Also, the harder you drive the plasma, the more it tends to buzz. That is another challenge manufacturers have to deal with. So they can only make them so bright, and they can only come up with filters which are as dark as possible, but not too dark to make the display overly dim.

You can see that even the very best plasmas, no matter if a VT50 or a Kuro or E8000, cannot hold up under bright lighting. The screen still washes out under sunlight or bright lamps. Simply snap a picture of the front of your plasma with a flash and you will see the picture of the front of your screen come out gray and not black. Now do the same with a Sammy or Sony LED. You can walk right up to the front of it and snap a picture with a strong flash and the screen will still maintain jet-black.

So I wish that plasma filters were even darker. When the sun pours into my living room I don't maintain deep blacks on my plasma unless I place my custom-cut dark-tinted clear mylar pieces in front of my window.

When I had Samsung LED's in my living room I could watch TV in the sunlight and still maintain ink-black blacks. The contrast was way better in a bright room with my LED's than my PDP's. The exception is the incompetents at LG, who make screen filters that are glossy yet not jet-black. So you get the lovely combination of lotsa' glare (i.e. 'LG') and no deep blacks with an LG LED. That is why they are once again falling behind the leaders Sony and Samsung (And more recently Sharp Elite) in LED.

LG=low grade
LG=lotsa glare

Quote from DocuMaker : I am sorry, but you are misinformed. 720p/1080i sources will look better on 1080p displays as compared to these 720p displays. With 1080i source, no upscaling will be needed; only simple de-interlace from 1080i to 1080p. Also, the 1080p displays will upscale 720p content, filling in twice as many pixels giving you less jagged lines (stair-stepping). I also do not think that it should be set in stone that at 10 feet it makes no difference whether you are viewing 1080p or 720p. 10 feet is borderline--right on the threshold, depending on the quality of one's vision plus the type of content. Some careful viewers may notice a slight but visible improvement on a 1080p vs. a 720p at 10 feet. I think a safer threshold is around 12 feet. I have tested same model-year Samsung 720p vs. 1080p 50 inch plasmas, and I could say with confidence that I could not tell the difference in resolution (with my imperfect eyesight) after about 12 feet. If I looked closely I could see a slight improvement on certain content (not all) at 10 feet. At any rate, the 1080p sets are usually a higher build quality with better processing and better features anyway, so there are plenty of reasons to upgrade to a 1080p set vs. a 720p. These 720p sets are for people who simply cannot afford a 1080p. But if one can afford to spend a bit more, you get a much nicer display when you jump up to the 1080p models. Also, the original poster said he placed the Samsung side by side with the LG (calibrated). What is his definition of calibrated? Does he mean adjusted? There is quite a difference between simply using some test patterns and making adjustments to a TV and performing a full-scale ISF calibration with a light meter and software plugged into a laptop. Furthermore, the original poster said the LG had better picture quality than the Samsung. Did he conduct side by side comparisons in the dark? Black level/contrast is one of the single most important factors affecting picture quality, and the OP conveniently left out this key metric. IF he truly performed a calibration rather than simply an adjustment, then he ought to be able to provide us the black level measurements I highly doubt that the LG plasmas had blacks as deep as the Samsung. Usually every year LG is in last place in this key area, which is why their plasmas always last in shootouts. LG's simply have been known for not having the deep blacks you get on a Panasonic or a Samsung.

All these improvements are valid on paper, but they often don't amount to much gain in picture quality, especially in the real world under normal viewing condition. That's why those reviewers who have a 1080p set in their homes still say that the LG's picture is almost as good as their 1080p set.

Go back and read the Amazon review. The owner said that he could not see any difference in black level between the LG and his 1080p Panasonic.

Quote from DocuMaker : You are a bit confused with your last statement. Plasmas use phosphors, and phosphor comes from the Greek and means "light-bearing". Hence, the phosphors in a plasma are very susceptible to reflecting light that bounces off them. If you have no screen filter, the light from the room which is hitting the front of your panel has nothing to block it from reflecting off the phosphors and washing out the picture. The unobstructed light reflects off the phosphors and they lighten up a great deal, turning a light gray. The reason the television makers add light-absorption filters to their plasmas is simple and effective. When you add a dark filter to the plasma, the light from the room has to pass through the filter twice before it returns to your eyes. Once as it passes through the filter into the plasma, and then after it reflects off the phosphors, it has to pass right back through it a second time. However, the light which the panel generates itself by stimulating the phosphors with electrical impulses to light up the pixels, doesn't have to pass through the light aborption filter on the way in, but only passes through the filter on the way out. Obviously having a dark filter coating is going to result in a display with a lower overall brightness. But by rejecting the ambient light from the room at a two fold rate (because the light has to pass through the filter twice, and not only once), you can keep the pixels darker. So it is simply a trade-off. Reduced brightness for a theoretical doubling of contrast in ambient light. As plasmas have become more efficient in recent years, and can get brighter while simultaneously using less energy, manufacturers have commensurately made their light-aborption filters darker. Trust me, plasma manufacturers would love to make their filters even darker, like the glossy jet-black ones you see on Samsung, Sony, Sharp, and Toshiba LED's. Those are several times darker than the ones on plamsa. If they made the filters on a plasma as dark as the ones on an LED, the plasma would be far too dim, or it would be necessary to drive the panel so hard that it would melt down from all the heat. So PDP makers have a challenge and must make compromises. They can't drive their plasmas too hard because everyone is so concerned about energy conservation these days. Also, the harder you drive the plasma, the more it tends to buzz. That is another challenge manufacturers have to deal with. So they can only make them so bright, and they can only come up with filters which are as dark as possible, but not too dark to make the display overly dim. You can see that even the very best plasmas, no matter if a VT50 or a Kuro or E8000, cannot hold up under bright lighting. The screen still washes out under sunlight or bright lamps. Simply snap a picture of the front of your plasma with a flash and you will see the picture of the front of your screen come out gray and not black. Now do the same with a Sammy or Sony LED. You can walk right up to the front of it and snap a picture with a strong flash and the screen will still maintain jet-black. So I wish that plasma filters were even darker. When the sun pours into my living room I don't maintain deep blacks on my plasma unless I place my custom-cut dark-tinted clear mylar pieces in front of my window. When I had Samsung LED's in my living room I could watch TV in the sunlight and still maintain ink-black blacks. The contrast was way better in a bright room with my LED's than my PDP's. The exception is the incompetents at LG, who make screen filters that are glossy yet not jet-black. So you get the lovely combination of lotsa' glare (i.e. 'LG') and no deep blacks with an LG LED. That is why they are once again falling behind the leaders Sony and Samsung (And more recently Sharp Elite) in LED. LG=low grade LG=lotsa glare

Keep drinking the Kool-Aid. The principle of optics hasn't changed with the invention of plasma. Black can only be as dark as the color of the screen, in the OFF state. The main purpose of a coating is to reduce glare from strong ambient light. The best possible picture is obtained by watching in a pitch dark room without an anti-glare coating.

In audio, pure direct is always preferred to any type of manipulation by the DSP chip. A cheap DSP chip can reduce the quality of the audio. The same can be said of various anti-glare coatings. Careful placement of the TV will eliminate the need of the anti-glare coating (another variable). KISS.

Quote from E4300 : I backed-up my claim with testimonials from others who have compared entry level plasma with their more expensive 1080p counterparts. None of these people see that big improvement that you claimed to see. No one is forcing you to buy the expensive TV. If you see the huge jump in picture quality, then feel free to fork over more $. It's not my $ that's being flushed down the drain. Samsung and LG are betting that most consumers will not pay a 2-3x price premium for a small increase in picture quality. And the proof in in the earning report. LG and Samsung make $ on HDTV, while Panasonic is still deep in the red.

not really..and please post the financial returns of the companies you mentioned...with just their Tv business included....no other consumer products they they sell

You really never said what specific models you had in your home that was ...entry level and high end

As I said before..based on your comments the newest LG entry level plasma must be far better than last years PZ950..
is that the case?
O posted the link from the Cnet review...I would agree with that and generally speaking other AVS enthusiasts do as well
Though the PZ950 was the least expensive of any of the high end plasmas..and was a very good deal for hundreds less than the Samsung or Panasonic

There are always those that say high end anything is waste of money...take your pick on what consumer product...

Then there are those that say its worth every penny

I use your example of the car ....while that was not the same thing at all..hopefully you get my point about driving and honda civic at 100( or 30 mph) or an Mercedes S class at the same speed

Using your analogy...there is only a small realistic difference in Honda Civic and a Mercedes S class...did you say 8%?

While I would say the only thing they share in common is that they are automobiles with 4 door capability

People have wide expectations...what one person considers perfectly good( or great)..the next person considers below expectations

As far as that comment about high end products on slick deals

you dont read enough posts here...there are plenty of high end products that are slick deals

People that buy high end enjoy a slick deal as well

Quote from E4300 : Keep drinking the Kool-Aid. The principle of optics hasn't changed with the invention of plasma. Black can only be as dark as the color of the screen, in the OFF state. The main purpose of a coating is to reduce glare from strong ambient light. The best possible picture is obtained by watching in a pitch dark room without an anti-glare coating. In audio, pure direct is always preferred to any type of manipulation by the DSP chip. A cheap DSP chip can reduce the quality of the audio. The same can be said of various anti-glare coatings. Careful placement of the TV will eliminate the need of the anti-glare coating (another variable). KISS.

You keep drinking Kool Aid as well

In fact you should sell it...from what I am reading

What difference does it make in the OFF state...?..do you watch TV in the OFF state?


When the TV is on..and video is produced that is when black level is measured
Glare filter of not...the entry level LG dont compare to high end in any environment in black level performance

Based on your analogy...the black level should be degraded by the filter
How do then explain that the entry level plasmas have lower black level performance?

I can post black levels of just about any of the TV of the last 3 years..if needed

Shall we start comparing last years flagship LG PZ950 to the rest of the high end field?

I agree with your comment about a cheap DSP degrading quality....but a cheap set of tires degrades the ride of a car as well.....so..not sure what significance you mean there?

On the higher end of things..and good DSP will enhance stereo
Many things have been done with good room correction technologies...such as Audessey XT32 used on high end Onkyo;s and Denons...as well as ARC used in Anthem products

and what is careful placement?...lol
A pitch black basement where you will never turn a light on so that you will not see how bad the black level of your TV is?

Think about it...in a pitch black room your eye..unless you have a high end TV for side by side comparison.....will think a horrible black level looks good

If you can turn on a light and maintain a decent black level...and see the picture sans glare lol...
Then you know you have a quality TV

There are plenty of plasmas that can deal with a room with moderate light

You need to step up and look at higher quality offerings and you will see the light

No pun intended..lol