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Gun Incident Mega Thread - Post All Gun Incidents Here

Krazen1211 417 January 23, 2013 at 10:49 AM
http://www.bradenton.com/2013/01/...after.html

Manatee County sheriff's deputies continue to investigate an incident in which a man fatally shot an alleged robbery suspect Sunday night at his Bradenton home.

Two men were sitting in the carport of a residence in the 4200 block of 24th Street West about 10:20 p.m. when three suspects, dressed in black and wearing masks, approached on foot. James Brady, 26, allegedly pointed a handgun at one of the victims, ordering him to the ground, according to the sheriff's office.

That's when the victim, who has a conceal-carry license, pulled out a handgun, according to Dave Bristow, sheriff's office spokesman. Gunfire exchanged between the two men



Score one more for the good guys.

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#916
Looking deeper into the findings…. [hsoi.com]

Quote :
But what really got me about distance was Claude’s conclusion:

Quote :
The perceived need for massive quantities of ammo, reloading, and precision shooting at distance is largely a figbar of people’s imaginations. There is simply no evidence to support the contention that any of those conditions occur during armed confrontation
That might be the case from the limited data set which Claude examined, and perhaps he’s meaning it within that context. But the presentation is such that it implies such conditions NEVER happen PERIOD in any sort of private citizen self-defense encounter. Thus you should never worry about these matters, because there’s “simply no evidence” to support they ever happen. And that’s wrong, and Mr. Werner might want to check with his friend Tom Givens for some data on this topic.

Which takes me to another reason for why people might draw closer to their attacker: they can’t shoot them from far away. If all you ever do is blaze away at a cardboard target that’s 3 yards in front of you, you’ll probably be pretty good at that distance. If you never shoot your pistol at targets 25 yards away, how much confidence do you think you’ll have if now suddenly you have to make that shot? Under stress you’ll default to what you can already do, and given a drive for success you’ll work to put things more in your favor, so if that means getting closer then you will. If more of these citizens had adequate training, training that pushed them to do things like shoot at 15 or 25 yards on a regular basis, how might this data be different? And again, with the sharp rise in Gun Culture 2.0 and more private citizens seeking formal training, what would data from the last 10 years show by contrast?
Quote :
But remember what average is, statistically. There were enough incidents that required more rounds, including at least 1 incident that needed more than 2 snubs worth of ammo, more than what a 1911 traditionally holds.

What’s hard to read about Claude’s findings is again the way it is presented, that 2 shots is all you need, you’ll never need more than 5 to take care of anything. This is simply not the case. Sure that might be the average, but boy… if you opt to train to just the averages, how do you think you’ll feel when you get to be the one statistical anomaly? Look at the edge cases in Claude’s own data and piece them together. The largest group had 7 VCA’s, and you’re going to need more than a 5-shot snub to deal with that many attackers. Again, this is about playing to statistics, about assuming you’ll be alright because the averages say. Does anyone say “gee, I wish I had LESS ammo”?
Quote :
Conclusion

I don’t take odds with the data Claude collected, in terms of what he did and the summary picture that came out of the data set. I think it’s all reasonable collection and analysis of what was there. Furthermore, it does paint an interesting picture that’s worth knowing.

What I find problem with is some of the conclusions and suggestions in here, like that a snub is sufficient, that long distance shooting never happens, that reloads don’t happen. My fear is that someone could look at this data and use it as justification for developing a training program, or to justify they don’t need any training at all. “Why should I train how to reload? they never happen, and besides it’s a pain to reload my snub because it’s so small.” I believe this is Karl’s fear as well, tho it wasn’t perhaps expressed well enough in his comment (given the response from the blog owner). Claude may have stated at the beginning: “You decide what suits your needs best to solve this type of problem.” but to the untrained and unknowing, they’re going to look at Claude’s data, conclusions, and suggestions as authoritative and will likely use his data, conclusions, and suggestions in formulating what suits their needs best — because they’re a n00b and don’t know what their needs are and how to satisfy them! That’s the problem.

There’s something to be said for understanding all the data, and how that generates some averages and yes how that can and should influence our training both in terms of what to train and what not to train. If most self-defense incidents end up fitting that “3 shots, 3 yards, 3 seconds”, it would stand to reason that’s something to first ensure you can do (e.g. can you clean the “3 Seconds or Less Drill” consistently, constantly, and on demand). That doesn’t mean your training should only encompass that sort of work, but if you can’t do that stuff it’s best to master it before you go on to things like group shooting at 25 yards, if self-defense is your shooting goal. But you should eventually move on to being able to shoot groups at 25 yards and not be satisfied with what the data says, what the averages are, because while certain data sets may not support a need for it, who knows… you may get to be the lucky one that establishes a new data set.
Quote from Danman114 View Post :
Any details of these incidents that can be looked at by others?

Is this in one particular city or something?

Not that it matters too much, but it just seems like cherry picking.
They were taken from the NRA's "Armed Citizen" column. So not cherry picked, just a unique subset chosen.
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Comeon where's the sales?
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#917
Thanks for posting a link to hsoi. Also good information there. I would just point out the 2 rounds used from Claude’s examination is both the Average and the Median.

Also I realize that YMMV based on location and conditions, but I still think 100 round drums are excessive.
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#918
Quote from RHCCapri View Post :
Also I realize that YMMV based on location and conditions, but I still think 100 round drums are excessive.
Are these used in crimes?

I'd think a 100 round drum, loaded with ammo would be rather heavy and a bit more clumsy.
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#919
Quote from Danman114 View Post :
Are these used in crimes?

I'd think a 100 round drum, loaded with ammo would be rather heavy and a bit more clumsy.
It is; a fully loaded 100rd drum weighs about 1/3 more than an AR15. Most of them on the market are junk (they have a tendency to jam, as it did for the Colorado shooting in the Movie theater [cnn.com]), the "good" ones are rather expensive and pretty hard to find anymore.
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#920
Quote from RHCCapri View Post :
Thanks for posting a link to hsoi. Also good information there. I would just point out the 2 rounds used from Claude’s examination is both the Average and the Median.

Also I realize that YMMV based on location and conditions, but I still think 100 round drums are excessive.
I can only think of 2 situations where one would need a 100rd drum; extended range session to avoid reloading and an extended firefight where one is non mobile and defending a position.

The latter is useful for home defense, as one would be able to protect one's home from multiple armed assailants through an extended firefight w/o needing to reload before the intruders did.

An AR15 with a fully loaded 100rd drum on it would weigh about 15lbs. Which is a pain in the ass to move around quickly and aim with. The trade off is that it beats fumbling around in the dark and trying to swap a mag when your adrenaline is all fired up at 2A.
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2 tickets to the gun show
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#921
Quote from RHCCapri View Post :
Also I realize that YMMV based on location and conditions, but I still think 100 round drums are excessive.
Why?
.
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#922
Quote from Deusxmachina View Post :
Why?
.
Poor weight balance of the weapon.
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#923
http://www.ktnv.com/news/local/192769641.html

Quote :
Suspect named in Las Vegas Strip shooting, car explosion

The person police believe fired the shots is 26-year-old Ammar Harris (Full name: Ammar Asim Faruq Harris).

Harris is described as a black male, about 5'11" and 180 pounds. He has brown hair and brown eyes.

Harris has an extensive and violent criminal history and is considered to be armed and dangerous. He has several distinctive tattoos, including a heart shaped tattoo below his right eye, and a large owl tattoo on his neck.
from another source:

Quote :
Police are looking for 26-year-old Ammar Harris, who they believed fired the shots in the shooting that happened early Thursday on the Strip. Harris' arrest history in Las Vegas, which is extensive and violent, according to police, includes charges of kidnapping and pandering.
I wonder if gun control laws would've stopped this felon from acquiring and gun and killing people? Somehow I think not.. Why wasn't this guy in jail anyways?? They still haven't given the details but it appears had a very long and extensive criminal history (not just kidnapping and pandering). So again.. why was he a free man?
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#924
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/f...-and-black

Quote :
Frederick Douglass Society President: ‘Direct Correlation Between Gun Control and Black People Control’

Swimp compared the call for universal background checks for gun purchase to the time when blacks were required to register with the government.

“The first gun laws were put into place to register black folks, to make sure that they would know who we were – that we could not defend ourselves,” Swimp said.

“I think if you look right after the Emancipation Proclamation – what was going on down in the southern states, it’s very clear that the Dixiecrats wanted to disarm black people to keep us from defending ourselves against the Klansman, who were murdering white and black Republicans to control the ballot box,” Swimp said. “So I think history is [rife] with examples. There’s a direct correlation between gun control and black people control.”
he tells an obvious story about growing up as a kid and committing crimes. He said what most people with any common sense realizes. They knew who in the neighbor was a gun owner.. they knew these weren't the people you'd rob because they'd shoot you, drag you outside then call the police. So they avoided the people they knew were gun owners and sought of those that were not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feat...4s4whiLXks
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#925
right and that doesn't NOT control for women who have guns preventing themselves from being harmed. gun owner households has risen a lot in the past couple of years and the biggest growth area is women -- which is why there is less crime and domestic violence against women than ever
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#926
Quote from RHCCapri View Post :
Reloading was required in only 3 incidents. One of those involved killing an escaped lion with a .32 caliber revolver, which was eventually successful after 13 shots.

The most common responses of criminals upon being shot were to flee immediately or expire. With few exceptions, criminals ceased their advances immediately upon being shot.[/I]
Actually the most common use -- by far -- is for a potential victim to point the gun at the criminal and watch the criminal flee. That is why you are safer with a gun because the studies that say you aren't EXCLUDE that outcome from their data sets.

Also FBI high stress simulations show almost all FBI agents will fire until empty. IE in most situations the defender, the person reacting to the criminal, even highly trained ones, will fire their entire magazine, in the case of top trained enforcement that is usually 17 rounds.
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#927
Quote :
but I still think 100 round drums are excessive.
look at this way, murders are not committed with 100 round drums. the only crime committed with one was at aurora where Holmes walked in with his AR and the 100 round drum and it jammed immediately as they often do. Holmes used Joe biden's weapon of self dense -- a shotgun as well as the most common handgun -- a glock.

the real effective weapon of the most successful spree murderer, the VA tech shooter, was a several chains and locks. what he did was lock down the building doors, locking in his victims. he had 15 ten round magaziness and four 15 round magazines.

Extra capacity mags helps you defending against armed assailants, it dosn't afford any advantage when you are a perpetrator attacking unarmed civilians. the person who needs the capacity are people being attacked.

If the sandy hook killer had had low capacity 7 round mags and a pair of 45 caliber pistols he would have killed just as many kids
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#928
Quote from aero View Post :
Actually the most common use -- by far -- is for a potential victim to point the gun at the criminal and watch the criminal flee. That is why you are safer with a gun because the studies that say you aren't EXCLUDE that outcome from their data sets.
What is NRA's and most gun enthusiasts' recommendation regarding repelling a home invader, point the gun at them and allow them to flee or shoot them?
Quote from aero View Post :
Also FBI high stress simulations show almost all FBI agents will fire until empty. IE in most situations the defender, the person reacting to the criminal, even highly trained ones, will fire their entire magazine, in the case of top trained enforcement that is usually 17 rounds.
So which is it: high stress situations or most situations? And if the two are the same, wouldn't that contradict your earlier statements about defenders pointing the gun at attackers and watch attackers flee?
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#929
Quote from TRNT View Post :
What is NRA's and most gun enthusiasts' recommendation regarding repelling a home invader, point the gun at them and allow them to flee or shoot them?
Most people are not eager to shoot someone, contrary to the stereotype of "Rambo" gun owners and NRA members. Potentially taking a life is not something most normal people take lightly. If there were a way to end a crime and save lives w/o shooting someone, most of us would choose that option. A gun is like a life insurance policy, fire extinguisher, or seat belt. You want to have it and never need it, rather than need it and not have it.
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#930
Quote from AlfredoGarcia View Post :
Most people are not eager to shoot someone, contrary to the stereotype of "Rambo" gun owners and NRA members. Potentially taking a life is not something most normal people take lightly. If there were a way to end a crime and save lives w/o shooting someone, most of us would choose that option. A gun is like a life insurance policy, fire extinguisher, or seat belt. You want to have it and never need it, rather than need it and not have it.
Why not answer my direct question and then add whatever commentary that you would like?

Here again: what is the NRA'a advise regarding confronting intruders? Show/point the gun and give them a chance to flee?
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