K-5 teacher overload: Too many trained, not enough jobs

Quote from DJPlayer : http://www.usatoday.com/story/new...n/1917569/ doesn't this somewhat justify underpaying K-5 teachers? 10 positions and 20 people to choose from.. you can most likely be more selective and offer less money. It should also logically create a reason for current teachers to work harder knowing there's a line of qualified individuals looks to take their position.

Only if you always wanted to punish teachers and thought their pay were exorbitant.

Rather what this should do is to increase the qualifications of teacher programs and make certifications even more difficult so only cream of the crop would become teachers.

I cannot see how US can have a bright(er) future if we did not drastically improve our education.

Quote from DJPlayer : so less.. teachers in 2009 vs. 2010. we put out immensely more certified teachers per year than those that retire..

Two questions:

1. Do you think that there's any possibility that state and local budget issues might have any slight impact on the number of teaching positions available, independent of actual educational needs?

2. Attrition much? 14% of teachers quit the profession in the first year. 46% quit within 5 years. Makes sense to me, BTW--Why should a person spend 4 years in college + 1 year in a teaching credential program + continuing ed as long as they work, AND be denigrated as a "union thug" by the Right, AND have to deal with parents who expect their kids to be little geniuses when they themselves don't care one whit about education, all for a paltry...$35000/yr?

If your proposal of making teaching a minimum wage job were to succeed, we'd need to train many times more teachers than we do now.

http://www.takepart.com/article/2...nover-rise

Quote from TRNT : Only if you always wanted to punish teachers and thought their pay were exorbitant. Rather what this should do is to increase the qualifications of teacher programs and make certifications even more difficult so only cream of the crop would become teachers. I cannot see how US can have a bright(er) future if we did not drastically improve our education.

I do not believe their pay is exorbitant.. but their overall compensation is. If you were to say eliminate their pensions and tone down their medical than we'd probably be sitting where it belongs. Also the guaranteed pay increases by longevity don't make alot of sense.. Some of the best teachers I've seen are actually newer (vs. seasoned).

I would argue part of the problem is not the teachers but the sociological environment students are from. Moreso the way their parents teach them. Just for example today many parents go ballistic on their teachers when the child receives a poor grade. When I was young my parents went ballistic on me (not the teacher). We're even seeing a slowing disappearance of HW in many areas because.. um.. parents can't be expected to make sure children assist or finish. Maybe children should have a longer school day if that's the route that must be taken? Otherwise we will continue to fall behind other countries.

Just a thought.. but Japan obviously demolishes us in education. Are their teachers "that" much better than ours? Or is their family unit and importance of education that much greater than ours?

Hmm.

k-5 hours are usually from 7:30am and out by 3:00pm at the latest (schools here release k-2 at 2:15 and 3-5 at around 2:30). You can also be dumb as a rock and still teach what is required. To top it off you get state benefits and almost 3 months off for summer. Not to mention all holidays off (2 week Christmas break anyone?) and about 7 or 8 sick days!!!!! All that probably adds up to them working about 7 months out of the year.

NO WONDER there is a surplus of applicants.

It is silly how much some teachers complain about the pay when most of them don't have any unique skills and work about 30% less than someone with a 9-5 job.

Quote from DJPlayer : I do not believe their pay is exorbitant.. but their overall compensation is. If you were to say eliminate their pensions and tone down their medical than we'd probably be sitting where it belongs. Also the guaranteed pay increases by longevity don't make alot of sense.. Some of the best teachers I've seen are actually newer (vs. seasoned). I would argue part of the problem is not the teachers but the sociological environment students are from. Moreso the way their parents teach them. Just for example today many parents go ballistic on their teachers when the child receives a poor grade. When I was young my parents went ballistic on me (not the teacher). We're even seeing a slowing disappearance of HW in many areas because.. um.. parents can't be expected to make sure children assist or finish. Maybe children should have a longer school day if that's the route that must be taken? Otherwise we will continue to fall behind other countries. Just a thought.. but Japan obviously demolishes us in education. Are their teachers "that" much better than ours? Or is their family unit and importance of education that much greater than ours?

You have many good and valid points. I even agree with your disagreement with pay increases based on seniority. However, I do not agree that their total compensation package is high. Here, for example, is one retirement package that I am familiar with: you earn 2.5% of your salary per year of service and you also lose your employer subsidizing your health ins cost. (And with no cost of living increase after your retire.) What do people think a teacher should retire on, 50% of their salary?

And one question about Japan: does a major political party and a large segment of the population malign and badmouth teachers and use them as scapegoat? IMO, our other problem with our education system is the fact that it has become a political/partisan matter.

Quote from gunnerusa : 2. Attrition much? 14% of teachers quit the profession in the first year. 46% quit within 5 years. Makes sense to me, BTW--Why should a person spend 4 years in college + 1 year in a teaching credential program + continuing ed as long as they work, AND be denigrated as a "union thug" by the Right, AND have to deal with parents who expect their kids to be little geniuses when they themselves don't care one whit about education, all for a paltry...$35000/yr? If your proposal of making teaching a minimum wage job were to succeed, we'd need to train many times more teachers than we do now. http://www.takepart.com/article/2...nover-rise

the funny part is the studies they attempt to cite. All of the studies are either entirely urban area teachers or primarily urban area teachers.

another interesting part is that the term "quit", not only means to quit the profession, but to quit and take a teaching position at another school (you said quit profession which is incorrect).

let's look at the bluffington:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/201...53891.html

Quote : In the past few weeks, two major reports on teacher turnover and retention have been released. One was rolled out with extensive media coverage, and has been the subject of much discussion among policymakers and education commentators. The other was written by me, along with Teachers College doctoral student Clare Buckley. There are some important similarities between the two new reports. Both surveyed teachers in large urban districts about their plans to stay in their current schools or to depart either for other schools, other districts or other careers. Both also sought to understand the features of teachers' work on the job that were influential in their plans to stay or leave. The study of New York City relied on a large, anonymous sample of middle-school teachers: roughly 80 percent of the full-time teachers in 125 middle schools across the city. In contrast, the TNTP study surveyed smaller numbers of teachers in four urban districts (one of which appears to be New York City), and the surveys were not anonymous, because TNTP wanted to link teachers' survey responses to what the authors viewed as measures of teachers' performance, such as value-added scores or summary teacher evaluations.

or maybe you're referencing the study by the National Teacher Association.. The one.. that it cited many times in union blogs etc.. but has never been released. Just some talking points and a mysterious study that exists somewhere?

here is a study though.. one you can actually look at.

Quote : Studies indicate that as many as 20 percent of new teachers leave the teaching profession after three years and close to 30 percent leave after five years. Turnover rates for individual schools and districts are higher, as they include both movers (who transfer from one school or district to another), as well as leavers (who exit the profession temporarily or permanently). Fifty percent of teachers leave their initial assignment, but not necessarily the teaching profession itself, in the first five years of their career (Allen, 2005; DarlingHammond & Sykes, 2003).

so why are they leaving the career?

Quote : Retirement 29.1% To Pursue Another Career 20.6% Better Salary or Benefits 19.0% Pregnancy/Child Rearing 16.5% To Take Courses to Improve Career Opportunities Within or Outside of Education 14.7% Dissatisfaction with Job Description or Responsibilities 13.1% Changed Residence 11.0% Dissatisfaction with Changes in Job Description or Responsibilities 11.0% Health 10.5% Did Not Feel Prepared to Implement or Did Not Agree With New Reform Measures 8.5% School Received Little Support from Community 6.4%

retirement? health? pregnancy? moving? But 20.6% of those leaving the career did so "to pursue another career". LOL..

Maybe you'd care link me to up to your studies.. that give such specifics as to the demographics, reasons and where they go. Problem is that your studies probably have an agenda to them and forget to mention to those details..

Quote from DJPlayer : That's an interesting change since 99% of the propaganda coming out the MSM is liberally funded propaganda..

*yawn* Same tired old pathetic excuses for the ineptitude of the right. You lost the election, stop blaming the media and get over it.

Quote : I was unaware statistics could be propaganda..

You're a fool then, or simply ignorant of statistics. Go pick up an entry level book or take a class at a nice private christian college, you'll quickly see why with any set of data a good statistician can come to just about any conclusion they chose.

Quote from TRNT : You have many good and valid points. I even agree with your disagreement with pay increases based on seniority. However, I do not agree that their total compensation package is high. Here, for example, is one retirement package that I am familiar with: you earn 2.5% of your salary per year of service and you also lose your employer subsidizing your health ins cost. (And with no cost of living increase after your retire.) What do people think a teacher should retire on, 50% of their salary?

I'm a big 401k person.. in fact I'd take a 401k over a pension any day of the week. Medical is it's own confusion especially with ObamaCare coming into effect (I have no clue whether it impacts retired teachers). I know in some areas teachers get full retiree healthcare coverage until 65 (when medicare kicks in). I believe teachers average ending salary is typically somewhere in the $70k region also.. So I they would have a decent bit saved after that time period, especially since their college loans are all forgiven after 10 years of public service. Many people today have loans that extend 25 years.. to be "forgiven after 10 yrs" that's a good.. $45k+ incentive (taking into account interest etc..)

Quote : And one question about Japan: does a major political party and a large segment of the population malign and badmouth teachers and use them as scapegoat? IMO, our other problem with our education system is the fact that it has become a political/partisan matter.

I don't know the answer to that question.. but it would hard to badmouth such a successful area in Japan. I have doubt that the way political partisanship in this country in terms of education, has an adverse affect on it's results.

Quote from travathian : You're a fool then, or simply ignorant of statistics. Go pick up an entry level book or take a class at a nice private christian college, you'll quickly see why with any set of data a good statistician can come to just about any conclusion they chose.

actually you're the fool in this regard then .. statistics are not partisan.. the choice of the sample group can be. The summaries can be. The reporting can be, the questions can be.. statistics are NOT partisan (they are based on a finite world of mathematics which has no partisanship). When dealing with probability you must always state rolling a "fair die", since you cannot do so in statistics.. one must examine the variables involved. Sample group, size, question etc.. Obviously you're to busy reading the headlines vs. the actual studies. So please sign up for that entry level statistics class.. Maybe I'll even teach it for you.

I assume people will be up in arms over the racism at this school and want those accountable to be held accountable. That means some new teacher jobs should be opening up there.

Parents Complain About School Ad Excluding Whites From Tutoring Program
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2013/0...g-program/

Quote : AURORA, Colo. (CBS4) – A school principal said no white children were allowed at an after-school tutoring program, and now some parents call it discrimination. The principal at Mission Viejo Elementary in Aurora sent a letter telling parents the program is only for students of color. Parents CBS4 talked with said they were shocked to see, in this day and age, what they consider to be segregation.

Quote from DJPlayer : http://www.usatoday.com/story/new...n/1917569/ doesn't this somewhat justify underpaying K-5 teachers? 10 positions and 20 people to choose from.. you can most likely be more selective and offer less money. It should also logically create a reason for current teachers to work harder knowing there's a line of qualified individuals looks to take their position.

No union is going to advocate a pay decrease and/or firing tenured teachers for ones just out of school just because of an over supply of teachers? Oh sure, they'll teach you about supply and demand but it'll never be applied to them

Quote from Deusxmachina : I assume people will be up in arms over the racism at this school and want those accountable to be held accountable. That means some new teacher jobs should be opening up there. Parents Complain About School Ad Excluding Whites From Tutoring Program http://denver.cbslocal.com/2013/0...g-program/

↑↑deserves its own thread↑↑


the divider in chief effect!

a white coach makes some remarks about how he disagrees with mo's school lunch programs, or how homosexuals are against his religious beliefs, and there is an outcry. black school principal says "no whites allowed", and that is ok/ignored by MSM. WTF?? Andre Pearson should be fired. If he is, think he will scream racism and call Jesse and Al?





this was inevitable considering so many are told they will get a high paying job as long as they finish college. They go to college, get a degree in underwater basket weaving, and want to make 100k a year. what else is someone with a degree in ancient mythology going to do? it really is interesting to see so many companies sending their college grad employees to trade/technical school.

Quote from DJPlayer : retirement? health? pregnancy? moving? But 20.6% of those leaving the career did so "to pursue another career". LOL..

So Teacher A says they're quitting the profession because they don't like the salary. Teacher B says they're quitting because they don't like the job responsibilities (say, dealing with rotten kids). Teacher C says he's quitting "to pursue another career."

Question: What happened to Teacher A and B after they quit? Did they wade into the ocean, never to be heard from again? Did they go to a mountaintop and wait for God to take them to heaven?

No. They..."pursued another career." The responses overlap. One person may select the "did not like salary" response and the "job responsibilities" response without selecting the "to pursue another career" response because it stands to reason that if they're leaving one profession, they'll be entering another.

I think it's fairly safe to assume that many if not most people who train for a profession for 5 years, land a job, and then work several years in that profession don't quit said profession because everything was fantastic. People don't just wake up in their perfect lives and for no apparent reason decide they always wanted to be cowboys.

Quote from Deusxmachina : No worries; the government will just create earlier and earlier "pre-K" schools and programs in order to hire more teachers and make budgets bigger, unions bigger, and to indoctrinate your kids sooner.

Bingo.