Anyone had any luck finding jobs requiring general computer knowledge

Quote from YanksIn2009 : Like I said, training on your dime is probably a bad idea if it is training in computers or IT or any technical or engineering field. It is simply not an area I would recommend anyone going into and the prospects are not likely to change anytime soon (in fact they will probably worsen). The days where you could make out well in it are long gone. Those that are left like myself have survived by a combination of specialized business knowledge, management skills and a good deal of luck (that or they are politicians who suck up all day long to their bean counter bosses). To put it bluntly, only a fool goes into IT now.

Dude, what are you talking about? Eight of the top twenty fastest growing job fields [cnn.com] are IT / tech related, and software development is #1.

IT is a rapidly growing field and that's not going to change. No, it's not 1998 anymore and no one is going to make 6 figures as an entry level web developer. But there are areas of the country (the northeast in particular) where they just can't find enough IT people to staff the openings they have. Yes, some people have been outsourced, but just as many compnaies are finding out that outsourcing is not nearly the cost savings they expected, and they're bringing those jobs back here.

OP, what I would personally recommend is that you start learning mobile app development (for iOS or Android). That's the one area where they just can't find enough people to work. It's a very new field & it's in very high demand, so you don't need to be an expert to break into it.

Good luck out there!

Nobody is looking for general computer help, and putting "good with computers" will be ignored on your resume. You should look into IT certifications. That plus your experience should land you a decent job even in this economy.

I copied these descriptions from another IT certification thread on another site:

CCNA
CCNA is probably the most valuable entry-level certification there is. There was a period of time where Cisco slacked off and the exam was kinda easy, but they tightened their belts and the exam I took and passed on Friday was hard. CCNA's value comes from this test being difficult to the first-time student. It's the antithesis to the MCSE mills from the Win2k era. I went into the CCNA knowing a LOT of shortcuts and tricks, but they wouldn't mean anything if I didn't know IOS and networking theory.

Another reason CCNA is valuable is Cisco's auto-recertify system. Once you have your CCNA, it's valid for three years. Now you want to work on a CCNP-level cert, which is three or four exams. Guess what? If you pass any one of those exams, it resets the clock on your CCNA! Same thing for your CCNP certs when you pass the written CCIE. It's a bone that Cisco throws to people training upwards - if your candidates are already pissing thousands of dollars into your academic program, there's no need to make them recertify their gut-level stuff every three years.

Microsoft
Microsoft has a lot of certs. A LOT of certs. Microsoft generally has multiple tiers of certification for every one of their products. A lot of certifications are sort of like meta-certs that are made up of other certs put together. There is no one MCSE exam. You get your MCSE when you have an MCP in a bunch of different technologies. This makes it easy on the students, but it also dilutes the MCSE's value slightly from an HR standpoint. Still, if you live in Microsoft shops, you want a cert for your specific forte.

MICROSOFT CERTIFICATIONS FOR HELPDESK/ADMINISTRATORS
Since there's apparently some confusion, I'm posting this in hopes that it'll be referenced as a single point of explanation for MS certification. This post will be kind of long, but I'm going to just link the pages on the MS site that give the relevant information, rather than list off all the exams needed to earn a certification.

I'm going to try to avoid saying things like "don't do this cert" or "get this cert instead", as it's VERY difficult to say for certain that what is asked for on jobs I want might not be what's asked for in jobs others want. I will, however, say that MCP and MCSE are the two most common certifications listed on job postings. Also, MCSE is (mostly) the design side, whereas MCSA is (mostly) the administration side, but there's generally a lot of overlap, and most job postings seem to think MCSE is better than MCSA... which is sort of right, I'll explain why further on in this post.

All certification titles should be clickable links to the Microsoft Learning page with the relevant information for each certification.

The stuff below is relevant to Windows Server 2003, which is the most common Windows Server platform currently in deployment. The focus of this post is on the system administrator side of things, which, if you're a DBA or programmer (or want to become one), probably isn't terribly interesting. The Find Microsoft Certification by Technology page lists off exactly what it says: all the current MS certifications, grouped by technology. The exams to earn each of those certifications are listed on the pages that detail each certification, just follow the links.

MCP
MCP stands for Microsoft Certified Professional. It means you've passed ANY current Microsoft exam for ANY technology on ANY "certification track (be it MCDST, MCSA or MCSE). Generally, this is probably one of the Core client OS exams, but again, it could be any current MS exam.

MCDST
MCDST stands for Microsoft Certified Desktop Support Technician, and consists of TWO exams. This cert WILL count toward MCSA/MCSE certification, HOWEVER, it's two tests that only count for ONE ELECTIVE EXAM on those certification tracks. IT IS NOT REQUIRED TO HAVE MCDST TO GET TO MCSA OR MCSE. Because of this, it's a lot of work for little gain if you're going the MCSA/MCSE route relatively quickly, and you're probably better off taking one of the Core client OS exams listed on the MCSA or MCSE pages. Those tests will get you MCP status, as mentioned above.

MCSA
MCSA is Microsoft Certified Systems Administrator. Assuming you go the straight-through route, it means you've passed FOUR exams: TWO Core networking, ONE Core client OS, and ONE Elective. MCSA is supposed to indicate a competency to handle day-to-day sysadmin tasks in a Windows environment.

MCSE
MCSE is Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer. Assuming you go the straight-through route on this one, it means you've passed SEVEN exams: FOUR Core networking, ONE Core client OS, ONE Core design, and ONE elective. MCSE can be thought of as MCSA with three more exams (two more Core networking, and the one Core design). MCSE is supposed to indicate the ability to design and build a network based on Windows Server 2003 systems. It covers the same stuff as MCSA, and then some, which is why it's considered better than MCSA.

Both MCSA and MCSE give you some choices: on MCSA/MCSE, you've only got to pass one of three Core client OS exams, which one you take is up to you. Also, you've only got to pass one of a couple doezen Elective exams. MCSE has a few more available elective exams than MCSA.

If you do something fancy, like get your A+ and Network+ certs, then that knocks off the elective for MCSA/MCSE. There's some others as well, check out the details here.

Generally, someone going for MCSE on Windows 2003 might take the XP client OS exam, giving them MCP status. Then they tackle the two Core networking systems exams and the one elective for MCSA. Add on the two additional Core networking systems exams and the Core design exam, and you've got an MCSE on your hands.

Again, that's all for Server 2003 stuff, which is still VERY common. Earning MCSE on 2003 and then upgrading to one of two Server 2008 equivalents will cover all the bases. The certifications for the Server 2003 generation of exams isn't planned for retirement as far as Microsoft says, so it's probably worth the effort to go that route right now.

Here is the upgrade path information.

In case anyone's wondering, there are equivalent certifications for Server 2008 to MCSA/MCSE 2003.
MCITP: Sever Administrator is basically the Server 2008 version of MCSA.
MCITP: Enterprise Administrator is basically the Server 2008 version of MCSE.

To add to the confusion of MS certifications, there's also things like MCSA: Messaging, MCSE: Messaging, MCSA: Security, MCSE: Security, developer (or programmer) exams and certifications, database exams and certifications... it goes on and on. The list is pretty long, but fortunately MS has been good enough to list the whole mess on one page, grouped by technology/topic:
Microsoft Certifications

Sorry if this added to anyone's confusion, reply to me and I'll try to clear it up. To be absolutely clear, I'm not MS certified at all (yet), however, I've spent a lot of time reading the various MS certification pages, to better understand what I should study for and what makes no sense to study (which for me is anything programming related... at least for now).

CompTIA
Get your A+ if you're going into tech support or helpdesk or what have you. I haven't seen a lot of demand for the other ones; the Security+ and Network+ are better served by Cisco certs.

RHCE (Red Hat Certified Engineer)
This certification shows that you can be a semi-competent Red Hat (RHEL, Fedora, CentOS) administrator. This is considered the gold standard in linux certifications right now (perhaps because no other distro has a well known cert?). The RHCE is known for being a very difficult exam, mainly because of the sheer amount of things you need to do in a limited time, and the fact that it is all a performance based test rather than multiple choice. With only a 40% pass rate the first time you take it, you can see that alot of people get burned, especially since the test goes for around $800 (look for a 50% coupon that is meant for renewing your RHCE... I used it and the exam was only $400). If you only pass certain parts of the RHCE, you still get an RHCT (Technician) so that is at least some consolation prize.

two college degrees? you call them worthless? of no value? what degrees did you get? I'm sorry that you picked poor college choices, but like any investment, you've got to do your due diligence.

Quote from Jeffbx : Dude, what are you talking about? Eight of the top twenty fastest growing job fields [cnn.com] are IT / tech related, and software development is #1. IT is a rapidly growing field and that's not going to change. No, it's not 1998 anymore and no one is going to make 6 figures as an entry level web developer. But there are areas of the country (the northeast in particular) where they just can't find enough IT people to staff the openings they have. Yes, some people have been outsourced, but just as many compnaies are finding out that outsourcing is not nearly the cost savings they expected, and they're bringing those jobs back here. OP, what I would personally recommend is that you start learning mobile app development (for iOS or Android). That's the one area where they just can't find enough people to work. It's a very new field & it's in very high demand, so you don't need to be an expert to break into it. Good luck out there!

Yeah you believe that propoganda. You can't find enough IT people willing to work long hours for $40 someodd thousand a year to start should be what it really states....and make 1% annual raises (if they are lucky). I guess if you consider that a "good" job... it is all relatve. I have been in the industry for 20+ years. The good old days died awhile ago when the outsourcing took over and anyone who buys into this propoganda is doing just what they want you to. Get trained on your dime to get a job (maybe) that does not really pay all that well and that you have a good chance of being replaced in 10-20 years down the road as you get older.

The avg or median salary is just that and those starting out are not making anywhere near that. And growing? Really? That counting all the H1b and other visa types that have moved here and work for substandard salaries (the other half of outsourcing is those that are on-shore)?

I know plenty of unemployed former programmers. I also know some that have been without a job for years and have switched to other fields because they can't find steady work in IT unless they want to have their family live at near poverty levels. Yeah that is a bright future for any graduate. Work hard, get paid low IF you can find a job and then get laid off later in your career because you can be replaced by someone (or two or three) on the cheap. To each his own.

Quote from YanksIn2009 : Like I said, training on your dime is probably a bad idea if it is training in computers or IT or any technical or engineering field. It is simply not an area I would recommend anyone going into and the prospects are not likely to change anytime soon (in fact they will probably worsen). The days where you could make out well in it are long gone. Those that are left like myself have survived by a combination of specialized business knowledge, management skills and a good deal of luck (that or they are politicians who suck up all day long to their bean counter bosses). To put it bluntly, only a fool goes into IT now. You are competing against offshore people who work for next to nothing with no benfits and in an industry that by and large is shrinking. And it will only worsen as civilian engineers and computer people will be the first to go under the coming defense cuts. If you want to take courses, I would recommend night classes locally (which are often free or very cheap) on business or accounting or the like. Something that can help you start your own business. I know that is difficult to do as well, but at least you can make it on your own and hopefully start a business that is successful with hard work and a good deal of luck. Spending 10's of thousands of dollars for technical training that may not pay off and that will sink you further into debt is not the solution imo.

I am replying directly to you, Yanks, because your message resonates with my own observations about the state of the job market. So many, many jobs have gone offshore just as you say. I'm not sure that many people outside of our field fully appreciate the situation. I suppose I am just glad that I am surviving and that I still have a home and am managing to pay the mortgage on time. Security, hope and confidence are gone, though, and I don't think those things will be coming back. From what I observe in reading the news, things are going to get worse.

Quote from linux_guru : I am replying directly to you, Yanks, because your message resonates with my own observations about the state of the job market. So many, many jobs have gone offshore just as you say. I'm not sure that many people outside of our field fully appreciate the situation. I suppose I am just glad that I am surviving and that I still have a home and am managing to pay the mortgage on time. Security, hope and confidence are gone, though, and I don't think those things will be coming back. From what I observe in reading the news, things are going to get worse.

I hear you. I know it is very discouraging. I have been very lucky to survive where I am. Try not to let it get to you. I know that is hard but making yourself sick with worry or stress is not going to help and you can't do anything about the situation as a whole so why worry about it?

That said, I think exploring side businesses and starting something up on the side part-time to make some extra cash and hopefully build up a business is a way to go. I know that is easier said then done and can be really really hard to succeed in. As long as you have a job though, keep it for as long as you can and see if you can get something going on the side that you could fall back on if you get laid off. Doing the same thing, following the same path is not going to lead you to a different place as the saying goes.

ask in computer forum

Quote from YanksIn2009 : Yeah you believe that propoganda. You can't find enough IT people willing to work long hours for $40 someodd thousand a year to start should be what it really states....and make 1% annual raises (if they are lucky). I guess if you consider that a "good" job... it is all relatve. I have been in the industry for 20+ years. The good old days died awhile ago when the outsourcing took over and anyone who buys into this propoganda is doing just what they want you to. Get trained on your dime to get a job (maybe) that does not really pay all that well and that you have a good chance of being replaced in 10-20 years down the road as you get older. The avg or median salary is just that and those starting out are not making anywhere near that. And growing? Really? That counting all the H1b and other visa types that have moved here and work for substandard salaries (the other half of outsourcing is those that are on-shore)? I know plenty of unemployed former programmers. I also know some that have been without a job for years and have switched to other fields because they can't find steady work in IT unless they want to have their family live at near poverty levels. Yeah that is a bright future for any graduate. Work hard, get paid low IF you can find a job and then get laid off later in your career because you can be replaced by someone (or two or three) on the cheap. To each his own.

Yup, I'll gladly argue the flip side of this. I've also been in the industry for 20+ years, and I've seen all of the fluctuations.

I currently work in IT for a large software company & we employ hundreds of 'pure' IT people (meaning they keep everything running) and thousands of software developers, which some people like to lump into IT. We have a hard time finding people in some of our Northeast offices where unemployment runs around 2% for IT, and I can assure you that our entry level pay is far north of 40k.

I also know a number of unemployed IT people. Nearly all of them rode the wave up in the late 90s & early 2000's and had no business being in IT - people from different backgrounds who hopped over for the money, and got hired because there weren't enough people to fill all of the suddenly open positions. THESE are the people that got displaced first, and some are still surprised by it all these years later. I know of several people that were car salesmen, teachers, retail workers, etc who hopped over & then were surprised that they got let go when things crashed, and even MORE surprised that they had to go back to their original field to find work. They still consider themselves as displaced IT workers even though they only worked in IT for a few years & their training & background were in something completely different.

As for those who are underpaid? I will tell you that starting AND median salary for software developers [usnews.com] is right in line with most engineering degrees. If you consider yourself a software developer & you're earning near the poverty level then you're in business for yourself & not very successful, or you're not that good of a developer & you're working for a terrible company. I'll certainly grant you that you describe the experience of developers who really aren't that good at what they do.

However, if you live in the Boston or SF Bay area and are making less than 6 figures in software development, then you're doing something wrong. Heck, ANY major city will get you 6 figures in software, and not far below that for smaller markets.

I maintain [usnews.com], and all of the 'propaganda' [forbes.com]out there supports the fact that IT [glassdoor.com], and software development [glassdoor.com] in particular, is an excellent field to get into - PROVIDED that you're good at it. [wired.com]

Quote from Jeffbx : Yup, I'll gladly argue the flip side of this. I've also been in the industry for 20+ years, and I've seen all of the fluctuations. I currently work in IT for a large software company & we employ hundreds of 'pure' IT people (meaning they keep everything running) and thousands of software developers, which some people like to lump into IT. We have a hard time finding people in some of our Northeast offices where unemployment runs around 2% for IT, and I can assure you that our entry level pay is far north of 40k. I also know a number of unemployed IT people. Nearly all of them rode the wave up in the late 90s & early 2000's and had no business being in IT - people from different backgrounds who hopped over for the money, and got hired because there weren't enough people to fill all of the suddenly open positions. THESE are the people that got displaced first, and some are still surprised by it all these years later. I know of several people that were car salesmen, teachers, retail workers, etc who hopped over & then were surprised that they got let go when things crashed, and even MORE surprised that they had to go back to their original field to find work. They still consider themselves as displaced IT workers even though they only worked in IT for a few years & their training & background were in something completely different. As for those who are underpaid? I will tell you that starting AND median salary for software developers [usnews.com] is right in line with most engineering degrees. If you consider yourself a software developer & you're earning near the poverty level then you're in business for yourself & not very successful, or you're not that good of a developer & you're working for a terrible company. I'll certainly grant you that you describe the experience of developers who really aren't that good at what they do. However, if you live in the Boston or SF Bay area and are making less than 6 figures in software development, then you're doing something wrong. Heck, ANY major city will get you 6 figures in software, and not far below that for smaller markets. I maintain [usnews.com], and all of the 'propaganda' [forbes.com]out there supports the fact that IT [glassdoor.com], and software development [glassdoor.com] in particular, is an excellent field to get into - PROVIDED that you're good at it. [wired.com]

I suppose your thought is that I'm no good at programming. Well, you are welcome to think what you like. I doubt anything that I say would change any of your opinions, and there is nothing to be gained by arguing on the Internet.

I would be curious where you all are regionally. I do very nicely for myself and turn away recruiters weekly. I would be curious if some of the issues you guys face are about the states you live in more than outsourcing

Maybe check out www.odesk.com?

Most of the software developers are from low-wage countries BUT if you are actually good at what you do you might be able to get an edge on them.

I've seen US-based workers on there asking up to $100+ an hour to do development. Of course those are the guys that actually know their stuff and can build stuff that works first time, every time.

Sounds like some solid discussion and advice that's being ignored. Hope someone has a use for it.

Quote from Jeffbx : Yup, I'll gladly argue the flip side of this. I've also been in the industry for 20+ years, and I've seen all of the fluctuations. I currently work in IT for a large software company & we employ hundreds of 'pure' IT people (meaning they keep everything running) and thousands of software developers, which some people like to lump into IT. We have a hard time finding people in some of our Northeast offices where unemployment runs around 2% for IT, and I can assure you that our entry level pay is far north of 40k. I also know a number of unemployed IT people. Nearly all of them rode the wave up in the late 90s & early 2000's and had no business being in IT - people from different backgrounds who hopped over for the money, and got hired because there weren't enough people to fill all of the suddenly open positions. THESE are the people that got displaced first, and some are still surprised by it all these years later. I know of several people that were car salesmen, teachers, retail workers, etc who hopped over & then were surprised that they got let go when things crashed, and even MORE surprised that they had to go back to their original field to find work. They still consider themselves as displaced IT workers even though they only worked in IT for a few years & their training & background were in something completely different. As for those who are underpaid? I will tell you that starting AND median salary for software developers [usnews.com] is right in line with most engineering degrees. If you consider yourself a software developer & you're earning near the poverty level then you're in business for yourself & not very successful, or you're not that good of a developer & you're working for a terrible company. I'll certainly grant you that you describe the experience of developers who really aren't that good at what they do. However, if you live in the Boston or SF Bay area and are making less than 6 figures in software development, then you're doing something wrong. Heck, ANY major city will get you 6 figures in software, and not far below that for smaller markets. I maintain [usnews.com], and all of the 'propaganda' [forbes.com]out there supports the fact that IT [glassdoor.com], and software development [glassdoor.com] in particular, is an excellent field to get into - PROVIDED that you're good at it. [wired.com]

While I will not deny that to some extent during the boom there was an influx of people who had no business being programmers or in IT, arguing that this is the basis for the displacement is simply an exaggeration of that effect imo. I have known a number of people with masters degrees in comp sci or engineering who can't find jobs after 20+ years in the industry (or more precisely can't find high paying jobs commensurate with their experience). They were very good at what they did. They were making 6 figure salaries. And guess what....they worked for companies that went bust or got bought out and had major cutbacks or decided to reduce costs by oursourcing either on or off shore (or both).

And guess what, when many of them when they got into their late 40s or 50s, their companies either let them go outright or outsourced their positions. Some were told to train the people that were replacing them. Many of these people had specialized skills that are not in great demand now (RF communications specialsits for instance). Many were replaced simply to replace them with cheaper and younger labor though that will never be admitted. My current firm inthe past year laid off 3 technical Directors\VPs who had all been there for many years (15+) and made nice salaries I am sure. Just declared their jobs unnecesaary and bam...gone. Gee they were all in their late 40's or older too and fell out of favor politically with the current regime...what a coincidence right? One has found a job. The other two are still looking. 2 were extremely good and sharp technically at what they did. The other I would consider very good at what he did. The one that was the least talented of the three is the one that has found a job.

Yes those that survive make very nice salaries. We survive not because we are geniuses but because we are good at what we do, can manage projects or large groups of people and as such are much more valuable to our company that the avg run of the mill senior programmer or tech or engineer. Even then that may not be enough. Not everyone can be a chief. Not everyone can avoid the politics and like I said you do not see too many 60+ year olds in IT.

And to assume that it is a great industry to go into if you are good at what you do is a statement of the obvious imo. Most industries are. It is also true that most\avg programmers are not going to make upper mangament or even middle level management for that matter. It is like saying if you are an All-Star baseball player you will do very well. Yeah but if you can't make it past AA-ball you are unemployed by age 35 with nowhere to go. And unlike in pro baseball where skill is the determining factor, in IT it is not only skill but politics and outright luck as to where you are located and who you end up working for and whether your firm decides to outsource or not. For every good company there are dozens of crummy ones. I know because I was a consultant for years and worked at many of them lol.

When consulting was hopping, if you were good you could go from one $100+ an hour gig to another without any real concern about being left on the beach for too long in between gigs. Those days are long gone by and large unless you have some very specialized, in high demand skill set. If you are lucky enough to get into something like that, ride it out for all its worth because the industry changes so much, so fast that what is hot today is not likely to stay hot for more than 3-5 years before it cools off.

Quote from YanksIn2009 : And guess what, when many of them when they got into their late 40s or 50s, their companies either let them go outright or outsourced their positions. Some were told to train the people that were replacing them. Many of these people had specialized skills that are not in great demand now (RF communications specialsits for instance). Many were replaced simply to replace them with cheaper and younger labor though that will never be admitted. My current firm inthe past year laid off 3 technical Directors\VPs who had all been there for many years (15+) and made nice salaries I am sure. Just declared their jobs unnecesaary and bam...gone. Gee they were all in their late 40's or older too and fell out of favor politically with the current regime...what a coincidence right? One has found a job. The other two are still looking. 2 were extremely good and sharp technically at what they did. The other I would consider very good at what he did. The one that was the least talented of the three is the one that has found a job. Yes those that survive make very nice salaries. We survive not because we are geniuses but because we are good at what we do, can manage projects or large groups of people and as such are much more valuable to our company that the avg run of the mill senior programmer or tech or engineer. Even then that may not be enough. Not everyone can be a chief. Not everyone can avoid the politics and like I said you do not see too many 60+ year olds in IT.

I'm not all that familiar with the IT business but this has piqued my curiosity - I would assume that most IT/engineering/development jobs are based on the work that is completed. So if the goals are met at a reasonable cost, then theoretically the age of the worker shouldn't matter.

I'm imagining a situation where say for example I was to startup a software company... I can't afford to pay someone $100K off the bat so I'll hire college kids for $30K to build software.
But if all these 40-50 year old IT workers are technically competent and just sitting around not getting jobs, what's stopping them from taking a pay cut and competing for those jobs?

I get that for some people who have families to support etc it's hard to take a huge pay cut, but $30K is better than $0?