Fix the Debt's Fuzzy Math

Quote from barnz008 : Who prints? How much? Who hires? Public sector? Private? Who produces as a result of this magic equation?

i believe that's the bureau of engraving and printing. as much as it takes. trillions, if needed.

both. public sector until the private picks up enough slack to have the public back down some.

newly hired workers who weren't producing before.

Quote from barnz008 : Demand for what? Credit? Issued by whom? When and where has this "only occurred?"

demand for goods.

all the examples people like to trot out about historical hyperinflation, inter-war germany, etc.

Quote from thikthird : no, that's your goal, not mine. further more, this won't "debauch" the currency. obviously that wasn't enough.

maybe we should just exempt everyone from taxes? But then again.. why then are democrats fighting for more revenue from the higher income classes and repubs fighting for less spending? So you oppose both parties philosophies of higher taxes and oppose the idea of decreased spending?

Quote from DJPlayer : maybe we should just exempt everyone from taxes? But then again.. why then are democrats fighting for more revenue from the higher income classes and repubs fighting for less spending? So you oppose both parties philosophies of higher taxes and oppose the idea of decreased spending?

no.

well because dems are probably short-sighted and repubs aren't fighting for less spending, necessarily.

no.

Quote from thikthird : i believe that's the bureau of engraving and printing. as much as it takes. trillions, if needed.

You knew what I was asking. What's the source of the debt, smarty pants. Gvment holds a monopoly on the force and coercion, banks hold the govment hostage as they issue and counterfeit.

Quote : both. public sector until the private picks up enough slack to have the public back down some.

Ok, what if 100% of the civilian workforce is empolyeed by a company that doesn't produce a thing, only consumes. Will that do the trick? Like Greece and the rest of the Euro disaster.

Quote : all the examples people like to trot out about historical hyperinflation, inter-war germany, etc.

Here we go. Why don't you school the class how places like Weimar, Zimbabwe, etc hyper-inflated and the process needed at the time that *should* have happened that didn't.

Guess when there's only one thing left to do, it's to continue to do it until it's the only thing left to do. But wait, that doesn't make any sense. Welcome to Americka, circa 2008.

Quote from barnz008 : You knew what I was asking. What's the source of the debt, smarty pants. Gvment holds a monopoly on the force and coercion, banks hold the govment hostage as they issue and counterfeit. Ok, what if 100% of the civilian workforce is empolyeed by a company that doesn't produce a thing, only consumes. Will that do the trick? Like Greece and the rest of the Euro disaster. Here we go. Why don't you school the class how places like Weimar, Zimbabwe, etc hyper-inflated and the process needed at the time that *should* have happened that didn't. Guess when there's only one thing left to do, it's to continue to do it until it's the only thing left to do. But wait, that doesn't make any sense. Welcome to Americka, circa 2008.

i know you're a gold standardite so the thought of not having something physical to back up the debt is alarming to you, but it doesn't need a source.

who said anything about not producing a thing? i didn't. it's the exact opposite of what i'm saying.

do you honestly want to hear it? it has nothing to do with over-printing money. weimar, which was on the gold standard, and have to give a lot of it's gold away, devalued it's money by overprinting. we get past that by not being on the standard. they also had to give a lot of it's land away as reparations too, thus they couldn't produce much of their own crops. they had a shortage of factories and workers due to them being destroyed and killed respectively. all that in the end means they couldn't produce enough to sustain their population. we have the infrastructure and enough otherwise idle workers to get past that as well. zimbabwe is slightly different. they had the infrastructure (arable land in their case), but when the land went to the blacks they didn't know how to work it and be as productive as the whites they ousted. both situations were driven by a lack of adequate production with money printing being incidental.

You start a thread about something everyone (including Them) knows and has proven NOT to work.

You're challenged fairly on your claims and then back it up with complete misunderstandings and ad hominem attacks.

:golfclap:

Quote from thikthird : it has nothing to do with over-printing money. weimar, which was on the gold standard, and have to give a lot of it's gold away, devalued it's money by overprinting. we get past that by not being on the standard.

Do you want another stab at this?

You literally say, "It has nothing to do with overprinting" and then proceed to blame overprinting.

I mean historical inaccuracies aside (I mean really, everything you said about Germany could have been said about its surrounding areas, except for the land grabs which were more of a black eye than the source of economic trouble), do you really think printing money at the rate Germany did doesn't collapse ANY currency (fiat or hard)?

Quote from barnz008 : You start a thread about something everyone (including Them) knows and has proven NOT to work. You're challenged fairly on your claims and then back it up with complete misunderstandings and ad hominem attacks. :golfclap:

yeah, except none of that.

Quote from Danman114 : Do you want another stab at this? You literally say, "It has nothing to do with overprinting" and then proceed to blame overprinting. I mean historical inaccuracies aside (I mean really, everything you said about Germany could have been said about its surrounding areas, except for the land grabs which were more of a black eye than the source of economic trouble), do you really think printing money at the rate Germany did doesn't collapse ANY currency (fiat or hard)?

no, read it again, i didn't blame overprinting. i blamed lack of production. the overprinting was incidental.

there was nothing inaccurate about what i said. i mean, feel free to point it out if there is. if it does collapse a currency, point to an example where it did? and prove to me that those examples are actually the result of just printing money and not issues of supply. in either of the examples i listed, they could have done the complete opposite and taken money out of circulation and it wouldn't have mattered as the supply wouldn't be there.

Quote from thikthird : no, read it again, i didn't blame overprinting. i blamed lack of production. the overprinting was incidental.

Are you serious? The lack of production to keep up with the increased printing of currency?

What levels of productions are you dreaming of in order to expect production to keep up with a currency what traded 8:1 vs USD in January 1919 to 130,000,000,000 : 1 in November 1923?

Do you sincerely expect the German people to increase production in two years by 16 billion times over what it was in 1919?

Quote from thikthird : if it does collapse a currency, point to an example where it did? and prove to me that those examples are actually the result of just printing money and not issues of supply.

Examples of hyperinflation. [wikipedia.org]

Here's a tip that should help grasp the situation:

If you live in a society where in year x you can buy a loaf of bread for a paper bill that states "2 units of currency", and then fast forward to year x+2 and that same bill used to buy that same type of bread states "2,000,000,000 units of currency", the problem isn't that the economy isn't 1 billion times as productive as it was 2 years ago. The problem is that someone is printing so much money that it's value is decreasing at a scary pace.

Quote from Danman114 : Are you serious? The lack of production to keep up with the increased printing of currency? What levels of productions are you dreaming of in order to expect production to keep up with a currency what traded 8:1 vs USD in January 1919 to 130,000,000,000 : 1 in November 1923? Do you sincerely expect the German people to increase production in two years by 16 billion times over what it was in 1919? Examples of hyperinflation. [wikipedia.org] Here's a tip that should help grasp the situation: If you live in a society where in year x you can buy a loaf of bread for a paper bill that states "2 units of currency", and then fast forward to year x+2 and that same bill used to buy that same type of bread states "2,000,000,000 units of currency", the problem isn't that the economy isn't 1 billion times as productive as it was 2 years ago. The problem is that someone is printing so much money that it's value is decreasing at a scary pace.

no, the lack of production to keep up with the basic needs of the population. this is all that mattered and they weren't able to meet this.


yes, point to one on the list where the root cause wasn't lack of production.

no, the problem is that there isn't enough bread. the bread doesn't got from costing 2 units to 2 billion because there is 2 billion times more money, it's because there isn't enough bread. if there is an equal amount of bread to feed to population and the production of the bread matches the needs of the population, the amount of currency becomes irrelevant. it's a supply issue, not a currency issue.

Quote from thikthird : no, the lack of production to keep up with the basic needs of the population. this is all that mattered and they weren't able to meet this.

How does "lack of production to keep up with basic needs" magically add 6 to 8 zero's on the bills in circulation?

It doesn't.

And Germany was still productive (considering its turmoil). Most of the problem were currency related. People couldn't be paid bi-weekly or even weekly. It got to the point people would be paid in some places twice a day, and they would hand off their wages to their family at lunch so they could run out and spend it (that's how significant the fear of future inflation was).

Quote from thikthird : yes, point to one on the list where the root cause wasn't lack of production.

Germany. There wasn't a constant shortage of bread in the Weimar Republic, yet the price went from 1 marc to 100 billion marcs in a few years.

Quote from thikthird : no, the problem is that there isn't enough bread. the bread doesn't got from costing 2 units to 2 billion because there is 2 billion times more money, it's because there isn't enough bread.

So you think the money supply under the Weimar German Republic remained constant?

Quote from thikthird : if there is an equal amount of bread to feed to population and the production of the bread matches the needs of the population, the amount of currency becomes irrelevant. it's a supply issue, not a currency issue.

False. If the amount of bread in an economy remains constant, and the supply of money in that economy doubles, everything else equal, the price of bread will double. Printing money doesn't create new goods to consume.

Quote from Danman114 : How does "lack of production to keep up with basic needs" magically add 6 to 8 zero's on the bills in circulation? It doesn't. And Germany was still productive (considering its turmoil). Most of the problem were currency related. People couldn't be paid bi-weekly or even weekly. It got to the point people would be paid in some places twice a day, and they would hand off their wages to their family at lunch so they could run out and spend it (that's how significant the fear of future inflation was). Germany. There wasn't a constant shortage of bread in the Weimar Republic, yet the price went from 1 marc to 100 billion marcs in a few years. So you think the money supply under the Weimar German Republic remained constant? False. If the amount of bread in an economy remains constant, and the supply of money in that economy doubles, everything else equal, the price of bread will double. Printing money doesn't create new goods to consume.

it's not magic, it's simple supply and demand.

no, it wasn't productive. people would spend their pay immediately because of shortages.

it was, way to ignore history.

no, i never said that.

i never said the supply remained constant. that's the point. it didn't.