Transgender Girl's Parents Lobby for Her Right to Use the Bathroom

The brain is not fully developed until the early 20s. I do not know when the "gender identity center" stops changing. I would certainly not allow parents to chop off the nether regions of their children until after such a center in the brain is fully developed. I would have a hard time believing that the center is done developing before a male gets his full dose of testosterone at puberty.

Quote from thikthird : geology here. as a representative of a more august branch of science, by opinion stands until a physicist or something says otherwise.

I was a physics major first.

Quote from Xygonn : The brain is not fully developed until the early 20s. I do not know when the "gender identity center" stops changing. I would certainly not allow parents to chop off the nether regions of their children until after such a center in the brain is fully developed. I would have a hard time believing that the center is done developing before a male gets his full dose of testosterone at puberty.

do you know what that is in the first place?

As an aside of sorts, it's quite fascinating to read about how other cultures deal with gender and development. There are cultures out there that treat all babies as the same sex, IIRC, with a difference not taking place until puberty. What's weird in one spot of the world is perfectly normal in another.

Quote from jplayland : I was a physics major first.

ditto. then meteorology then geology.

Quote from bonkman : do you know what that is in the first place? As an aside of sorts, it's quite fascinating to read about how other cultures deal with gender and development. There are cultures out there that treat all babies as the same sex, IIRC, with a difference not taking place until puberty. What's weird in one spot of the world is perfectly normal in another.

Assuming it exists, it would be the bunch of nerves in the brain that determine what gender you think you are. That said, I used quotes for a reason. Dammit bonk, I'm a nuclear engineer, not a neurobiologist. I'm assuming that function is somewhere in the brain, and that it develops over time.

Quote from Xygonn : Assuming it exists, it would be the bunch of nerves in the brain that determine what gender you think you are. That said, I used quotes for a reason. Dammit bonk, I'm a nuclear engineer, not a neurobiologist. I'm assuming that function is somewhere in the brain, and that it develops over time.

As someone trained as a neuroscientist, I'm telling you it probably doesn't.

It's quite an interesting question, but one that's pretty tough to answer. We're delving into Theory of Mind and other related topics and there's not too much known about neural bases at the level you want. Such things are almost certainly the result of distributed neuronal networks interacting with each other, but since there are billions of neurons and trillions of synapses in the human brain, it's pretty tough to piece such cognitive things together -- though we are getting better, so this may be a neat topic to come back to in a decade or so. As opposed to things like vision and hearing, whose function lies in specific neurons and/or small local networks of them.

Keep in mind we don't even have complete understanding of how our senses work -- especially taste and smell. So getting into how we perceive our sexuality, gender, etc is pretty tough work. Though it shouldn't be implausible to think that the mental development of gender (what you feel you are) could be separate enough from the physical development of gender (what genitalia you have) that there would be some people who end up mismatched.

Didn't mean to insult you. Was more posting just to indicate that asking for a simple etiology -- which is what most laypeople feel should exist (think of how many people want to know what "the Thing" is that makes you homosexual) -- probably doesn't and therefore thought experiments may be of limited value.

Quote from thikthird : calling psychology a science is not disrespectful to scientists. source: i'm a scientist and don't feel disrespected.

I wonder what science thinks about your statement.

Quote from thikthird : geology here. as a representative of a more august branch of science, by opinion stands until a physicist or something says otherwise.

I'm a computer scientist. My AI track required me to take psychology courses. I don't know what to think of geology... I'm pretty sure that we dealt with more math and physics than the geology tracks.

The psych classes were some of the easiest classes. They were filled with some of the least intelligent students in the science department. After taking those classes, it's hard to take anyone with a psych degree seriously.

Cognitive psychology should not be disregarded. There are many things that can influence who you become. Variables such as your external environment, people you know, people who encourage you, your own traits can all affect what your preferences become. I think that the parents may be playing with fire and their psychologist could be acting irresponsibly.

Quote from bonkman : As someone trained as a neuroscientist, I'm telling you it probably doesn't. It's quite an interesting question, but one that's pretty tough to answer. We're delving into Theory of Mind and other related topics and there's not too much known about neural bases at the level you want. Such things are almost certainly the result of distributed neuronal networks interacting with each other, but since there are billions of neurons and trillions of synapses in the human brain, it's pretty tough to piece such cognitive things together -- though we are getting better, so this may be a neat topic to come back to in a decade or so. As opposed to things like vision and hearing, whose function lies in specific neurons and/or small local networks of them. Keep in mind we don't even have complete understanding of how our senses work -- especially taste and smell. So getting into how we perceive our sexuality, gender, etc is pretty tough work. Though it shouldn't be implausible to think that the mental development of gender (what you feel you are) could be separate enough from the physical development of gender (what genitalia you have) that there would be some people who end up mismatched. Didn't mean to insult you. Was more posting just to indicate that asking for a simple etiology -- which is what most laypeople feel should exist (think of how many people want to know what "the Thing" is that makes you homosexual) -- probably doesn't and therefore thought experiments may be of limited value.

I didn't feel insulted. I was simply admitting my limits in knowledge using the McCoy phraseology. Thanks for the post. I would think that as complex as sexual orientation (and gender identification) is, that the things that influence it would not be all set in stone at age six.

Quote from riznick : I wonder what science thinks about your statement. I'm a computer scientist. My AI track required me to take psychology courses. I don't know what to think of geology... I'm pretty sure that we dealt with more math and physics than the geology tracks.

yeah i had to take a psychology class too, big whoop.

probably more math, but i doubt you had to take more physics. especially considering most geology classes are some sort of applied physics.

The solution is pretty simple, just have gender neutral bathrooms.

The church I attend is switching to this now to be more welcoming to everyone (by essentially only letting one person use the bathroom at a time).

Quote from Danman114 : The solution is pretty simple, just have gender neutral bathrooms. The church I attend is switching to this now to be more welcoming to everyone (by essentially only letting one person use the bathroom at a time).

that's not very welcoming for people who really gotta go.

Quote from Danman114 : The solution is pretty simple, just have gender neutral bathrooms. The church I attend is switching to this now to be more welcoming to everyone (by essentially only letting one person use the bathroom at a time).

I've seen this in more and more places as well, actually.

Quote from thikthird : that's not very welcoming for people who really gotta go.

Quote from bonkman : I've seen this in more and more places as well, actually.

The transgender people are trying to take away urinals and troughs!

Quote from Elmer : Here's the happy family..

Well, I'll be the first to admit.

Guilty as charged for judging a book buy it's cover. I was under the impression the Coy was the center child, with the 'boyish' haircut and the collared shirt and tie. Well, in the Yahoo article, it certainly is the one on the far right.

Some other gems from the article:

Kathryn explained on "Katie" that Coy, a Girl Scout who loves pink, began gravitating toward girls’ toys and clothes by 18 months.

Well, there you go. An 18 month old telling his/her parents what he/she wants to wear.

And the state is just one of 16 states with similar laws. Just this week in Massachusetts, the department of education mandated that transgender students have the right to choose which bathroom they will use.

This article was missing something half way through, and I wondered "when is my state going to jump in on the action." Well, what do you know...