Creation or Evolustionists theory

Quote from darkfrog : BTW, in some of the discussions it appears that some people don't understand the significance of the twin nested hierarchy as it relates to common ancestry with confirmations from biochemistry and genetics like Human Chromosome 2 should really watch some of AronRa's videos, especially http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MXTBGcyNuc and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm277H3ot6Y which also discusses observed speciation and the barrier fallacy that supposedly allows for microevolution but not macro. In fact, if you are a die-hard creationist, I challenge you to watch the whole series.

I don't think there are any die hard creationists left here..not even superdan. Admit it Dan...I've been watching you over the past few months and I've seen small "cracks" developing in your shell. Deep down you have seen the light of reason, but I can tell you're having a hard time letting go of the old Bible stories you were brought up with.

I'm sure it must be difficult, but there really is no reason you can't keep your faith in God while also accepting what science has shown us about reality. You just need to accept that some of the tales in the Bible (talking snakes, floating cherubs with flaming swords, women being turned into salt, etc.) might not be literally true.

Quote from Libertarian : I don't think there are any die hard creationists left here..not even superdan. Admit it Dan...I've been watching you over the past few months and I've seen small "cracks" developing in your shell. Deep down you have seen the light of reason, but I can tell you're having a hard time letting go of the old Bible stories you were brought up with. I'm sure it must be difficult, but there really is no reason you can't keep your faith in God while also accepting what science has shown us about reality. You just need to accept that some of the tales in the Bible (talking snakes, floating cherubs with flaming swords, women being turned into salt, etc.) might not be literally true.

I've been trying to get burningrave101 to leave the Darwin movie thread and discuss the issue here. I'm sure there are still plenty of die-hard creationists here but they don't have any more arguments except to continually deny the facts. I suspect they see their position is weak from a logical perspective and they certainly cannot debate the science so they just ignore the evidence and continue on with their blinders on.

Yes, superdan has certainly come around, but that was inevitable since he is intelligent and investigates claims to the best of his ability. Anyone with an open mind will eventually come to the inescapable conclusion that evolution occurred. Whether the universe and life was started by a divine spark or not, common ancestry and descent with modification are truths because the evidence cannot be interpreted in any other way. The typical claim that a designer re-uses parts does not explain the branching tree that shows a steady progression from simple to more complex organisms that can be traced in numerous ways (unless of course the designer is deceitful and purposely made it only appear that evolution happened).

Quote from Libertarian : I don't think there are any die hard creationists left here..not even superdan. Admit it Dan...I've been watching you over the past few months and I've seen small "cracks" developing in your shell. Deep down you have seen the light of reason, but I can tell you're having a hard time letting go of the old Bible stories you were brought up with. I'm sure it must be difficult, but there really is no reason you can't keep your faith in God while also accepting what science has shown us about reality. You just need to accept that some of the tales in the Bible (talking snakes, floating cherubs with flaming swords, women being turned into salt, etc.) might not be literally true.

Ha, ok! Truth is, I haven't been a die-hard YEC (or Biblical literalist) in years, heck I wasn't one when I came to this forum almost 3 years ago. I was still strongly sentimental towards it, holding out **some** hope that it was simply and literally true. But I had serious doubts and reservations. I guess in essence the outline of what you're saying is pretty much true, but your scope is off. The only thing different in the past several months is that I've went from seeing evolution as possible to probable.

btw - what other cracks are you referring to? If you want to challenge the merits of my faith in Christ's redemption, you'll find no less a fight in me than before .

Quote from superdan54 : Ha, ok! Truth is, I haven't been a die-hard YEC (or Biblical literalist) in years, heck I wasn't one when I came to this forum almost 3 years ago. I was still strongly sentimental towards it, holding out **some** hope that it was simply and literally true. But I had serious doubts and reservations. I guess in essence the outline of what you're saying is pretty much true, but your scope is off. The only thing different in the past several months is that I've went from seeing evolution as possible to probable. btw - what other cracks are you referring to? If you want to challenge the merits of my faith in Christ's redemption, you'll find no less a fight in me than before .

Jesus referred to the creation God made and that he created all things many times. I am not sure how one can jive evolution and Christ and say one is literally true and one isn't? Just my 2 cents. Honestly Dan I love ya, but if the God you worship is one of mistakes and change through mistakes, I am not sure I am on board with that kind of God. And btw that would make Moses, David and others in the OT as well being wrong or not to be believed. No one should take any of their accounts as litteral if you believe in evolution IMO. They beleived in special creation by God.


And let me say as well , I may be considered a YEC but I am not tied down to 10k years... Just not seeing the billion thing as plausable.

Quote from talgot : Jesus referred to the creation God made and that he created all things many times. I am not sure how one can jive evolution and Christ and say one is literally true and one isn't? Just my 2 cents.

If God kick started the Universe, then every single thing in it could be said to have been his work. Same goes for God kick starting life and then letting it do its thing, evolve. Evolution can simply be a tool that God uses to make a diverse array of life, can't it?

Quote from talgot : Jesus referred to the creation God made and that he created all things many times. I am not sure how one can jive evolution and Christ and say one is literally true and one isn't? Just my 2 cents. Honestly Dan I love ya, but if the God you worship is one of mistakes and change through mistakes, I am not sure I am on board with that kind of God.

I think the problem you are coming up against is the age old debate of chaos vs. determinism. Is everything simply a product of chance, or is there purpose behind creation? You seem to think that evolution negates the idea of purpose/design, but I do not.

Furthermore, I think your dilemma is no different than the problem of reconciling the free will of man with God's sovereignty/predestination, in fact I think the two are completely intertwined. In other words, does God predetermine who will be saved or is man free to choose his own destiny? The Bible indicates both are true. Why should the same not be for Creation as well? What if there is ultimately purpose and determinism in evolution, resulting in humanity, but powered along the way by countless mistakes (i.e. mutations). How is that any different than our own path to salvation, which was ultimately perfected in Christ, but littered along the way with countless sins, from Adam's to our own?

Did God cause all our sins along the way? If so, then there can be no accountability for sin. If not, you'll hopefully see that I'm not worshiping a God of mistakes, I'm worshiping one who is both infinite and personal, eternal yet present, three persons yet one Godhead and uses both free will/chaos and determinism to bring about the master plan. That said, I understand where you are coming from and your reservations. I loathe to think I would cause a brother to stumble.

FWIW - The following article is a good illustration of what I'm getting at in regards to God using both chaos & determinism in evolution:

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/god-evol.htm

Quote from talgot : And btw that would make Moses, David and others in the OT as well being wrong or not to be believed. No one should take any of their accounts as litteral if you believe in evolution IMO. They beleived in special creation by God.

I don't see how adding one more natural process to the countless natural laws governing the universe negates the idea of creation as given by David (or any other OT prophet for that matter):

Psalm 19:1-2

1 For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
2 Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge.

What are the heavens telling us about? Why are we so afraid to hear what they are saying?

Quote from talgot : And let me say as well , I may be considered a YEC but I am not tied down to 10k years... Just not seeing the billion thing as plausable.

Why is it not plausible? Because it goes counter to the book which you worship? Multiple streams of evidence points to an ancient earth about 4.6 billion years old. The only thing you have to support your belief is a book written by men, not gods or angels, that were clearly fallible and had little understanding of the natural world. They may have been inspired by God but they certainly didn't author anything approaching divine knowledge on matters of the earth or the universe as evidenced by the many incorrect explanations attributed to aspects of the natural world especially cosmology. It has been argued that some of these mistakes should be looked upon as mere poetic metaphors but if that's true, why not the whole story of creation, which in Hebrew could certainly be read as poetry?

Quote from darkfrog : BTW, in some of the discussions it appears that some people don't understand the significance of the twin nested hierarchy as it relates to common ancestry with confirmations from biochemistry and genetics like Human Chromosome 2 should really watch some of AronRa's videos, especially http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MXTBGcyNuc and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm277H3ot6Y which also discusses observed speciation and the barrier fallacy that supposedly allows for microevolution but not macro. In fact, if you are a die-hard creationist, I challenge you to watch the whole series.

Wow. Thanks. Those are some beautiful videos. I like how he isn't anti-religious. Although I will say he probably talks to fast to reach the "right" kind of people.

Quote from superdan54 : I think the problem you are coming up against is the age old debate of chaos vs. determinism. Is everything simply a product of chance, or is there purpose behind creation? You seem to think that evolution negates the idea of purpose/design, but I do not. Furthermore, I think your dilemma is no different than the problem of reconciling the free will of man with God's sovereignty/predestination, in fact I think the two are completely intertwined. In other words, does God predetermine who will be saved or is man free to choose his own destiny? The Bible indicates both are true. Why should the same not be for Creation as well? What if there is ultimately purpose and determinism in evolution, resulting in humanity, but powered along the way by countless mistakes (i.e. mutations). How is that any different than our own path to salvation, which was ultimately perfected in Christ, but littered along the way with countless sins, from Adam's to our own? Did God cause all our sins along the way? If so, then there can be no accountability for sin. If not, you'll hopefully see that I'm not worshiping a God of mistakes, I'm worshiping one who is both infinite and personal, eternal yet present, three persons yet one Godhead and uses both free will/chaos and determinism to bring about the master plan. That said, I understand where you are coming from and your reservations. I loathe to think I would cause a brother to stumble. FWIW - The following article is a good illustration of what I'm getting at in regards to God using both chaos & determinism in evolution: http://home.entouch.net/dmd/god-evol.htm I don't see how adding one more natural process to the countless natural laws governing the universe negates the idea of creation as given by David (or any other OT prophet for that matter): Psalm 19:1-2 1 For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. 2 Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge. What are the heavens telling us about? Why are we so afraid to hear what they are saying?

You are making it way to complicated. Either you believe or you don't (in the Bible)

Quote from superdan54 : I think the problem you are coming up against is the age old debate of chaos vs. determinism. Is everything simply a product of chance, or is there purpose behind creation? You seem to think that evolution negates the idea of purpose/design, but I do not. Furthermore, I think your dilemma is no different than the problem of reconciling the free will of man with God's sovereignty/predestination, in fact I think the two are completely intertwined. In other words, does God predetermine who will be saved or is man free to choose his own destiny? The Bible indicates both are true. Why should the same not be for Creation as well? What if there is ultimately purpose and determinism in evolution, resulting in humanity, but powered along the way by countless mistakes (i.e. mutations). How is that any different than our own path to salvation, which was ultimately perfected in Christ, but littered along the way with countless sins, from Adam's to our own? Did God cause all our sins along the way? If so, then there can be no accountability for sin. If not, you'll hopefully see that I'm not worshiping a God of mistakes, I'm worshiping one who is both infinite and personal, eternal yet present, three persons yet one Godhead and uses both free will/chaos and determinism to bring about the master plan. That said, I understand where you are coming from and your reservations. I loathe to think I would cause a brother to stumble. FWIW - The following article is a good illustration of what I'm getting at in regards to God using both chaos & determinism in evolution: http://home.entouch.net/dmd/god-evol.htm

Interesting link. I wonder if he thinks God sent the Chicxulub asteroid on its way to earth to kill of the dinosaurs in order to give mammals a chance.

Sorry, but I find it odd that people believe that random events are deterministic, especially since the discovery of quantum uncertainty which appears to remove any possibility for determinism.

nevermind. Decided that I didn't want to wade back into this afterall.

Quote from Demosthenes9 : MIght as well wade back in to this thread since it has been quite a while. DF, as I understand it, things keep branching so to speak. For instance, we humans would somehow be descended from the very first mammal seeing as how we are mammals. Which mammal was that and how long ago did it first start walking the earth ?

Well, depending on what you consider the first mammal to be, it would probably be a synapsid [wikipedia.org] but the earliest forms were not quite mammals, but considered mammal-like reptiles or proto-mammals and is a transitional form between reptiles and mammals. They were dominant during much of the Permian period ~300-251 Ma, most going extinct during the Permian-Triassic extinction. The Cynodonts [wikipedia.org]appeared near the end of the Permian and they are a therapsid that survived the extinction and went on to be the ancestor of the modern mammals.

[edit- noticed you edited your post while I had my reply open]

Quote from darkfrog : Well, depending on what you consider the first mammal to be, it would probably be a synapsid [wikipedia.org] but the earliest forms were not quite mammals, but considered mammal-like reptiles or proto-mammals and is a transitional form between reptiles and mammals. They were dominant during much of the Permian period ~300-251 Ma, most going extinct during the Permian-Triassic extinction. The Cynodonts [wikipedia.org]appeared near the end of the Permian and they are a therapsid that survived the extinction and went on to be the ancestor of the modern mammals. [edit- noticed you edited your post while I had my reply open]

It's all good. Thanks for the reply.

Was going to get into the whole question of the degree of change wrt the amount of time.

Quote from superdan54 : I think the problem you are coming up against is the age old debate of chaos vs. determinism. Is everything simply a product of chance, or is there purpose behind creation? You seem to think that evolution negates the idea of purpose/design, but I do not.

Chaos, as far as creation is concerned, has only been introduced due to sin, if you will. I do think evolution negates the idea of purpose and design. Heck, the very people here you are agreeing with more and more are trying to use evolution to do just that. If God is perfect than evolution would not be his instrament, in my view. If you are right then you have another problem. When did people become the image of God? if the image of God implies as I believe , not just a physical likelness but a spiritual likeness, than God lied that we were created in his image. For we are no better than a single cell or any other creature he made. When did God empower us with a soul? These are a few questions and problems that make evolution incompatible with God. Especially if you have any belief in the bible. To me you either believe the bible is the word of God or it is useless and just a book. I don't think I have the right to say what parts I can believe and what I can't. Either it is the word of God or it is not.

Quote : Furthermore, I think your dilemma is no different than the problem of reconciling the free will of man with God's sovereignty/predestination, in fact I think the two are completely intertwined. In other words, does God predetermine who will be saved or is man free to choose his own destiny? The Bible indicates both are true. Why should the same not be for Creation as well? What if there is ultimately purpose and determinism in evolution, resulting in humanity, but powered along the way by countless mistakes (i.e. mutations). How is that any different than our own path to salvation, which was ultimately perfected in Christ, but littered along the way with countless sins, from Adam's to our own?

It is different in one key way. There is no basis for believing it through the bible. God infact tells us the opposite is true, that we were not made through mistakes... or again he lied when he said his creation was Good. I do agree with the first part of this statement. I think both seem to be true as far as free will and predetermination.

Quote : Did God cause all our sins along the way? If so, then there can be no accountability for sin. If not, you'll hopefully see that I'm not worshiping a God of mistakes, I'm worshiping one who is both infinite and personal, eternal yet present, three persons yet one Godhead and uses both free will/chaos and determinism to bring about the master plan. That said, I understand where you are coming from and your reservations. I loathe to think I would cause a brother to stumble.

No he has not. We caused it. I view it all this way... Liek a computer program. The creator of this program lays out how he wants it to work.. the rules and all of its workings. Then comes a virus. But even though this virus corrupts the system the creator is not without its backup plans for the system to survive and be eventually as it once was. meaning God had his perfect path, and we screwed it up but he had other ways to get it back to that path if x,y or z happened.

Quote : FWIW - The following article is a good illustration of what I'm getting at in regards to God using both chaos & determinism in evolution: http://home.entouch.net/dmd/god-evol.htm I don't see how adding one more natural process to the countless natural laws governing the universe negates the idea of creation as given by David (or any other OT prophet for that matter): Psalm 19:1-2 1 For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. 2 Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge. What are the heavens telling us about? Why are we so afraid to hear what they are saying?

Ps. 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. 2Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.

Quote from Epiphyte : If God kick started the Universe, then every single thing in it could be said to have been his work. Same goes for God kick starting life and then letting it do its thing, evolve. Evolution can simply be a tool that God uses to make a diverse array of life, can't it?

It could be.. but what would be the reason to believe this? what is the basis for it? To me it is a compromise that is not necessary.