Something new for the podium... this week we will entertain questions on Islam in a sticky thread


mohater will be our guide...


He has offered to field questions from the group on the subject of Islam, and clear up misconceptions that exist among the group. So... if you have questions about islam... ask away.

If you don't have questions... stay away. ;)

This is mohater's thread...



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Something new for the podium... this week we will entertain questions on Islam in a sticky thread


mohater will be our guide...


He has offered to field questions from the group on the subject of Islam, and clear up misconceptions that exist among the group. So... if you have questions about islam... ask away.

Ok guys to keep this orderly -

Questions should not be directed at current events or recent history - (ie gang rape in Pakistan, or Illegal for Women to drive in Saudi). Trying to keep the cultural out of it and only have questions on the religion

I will be the only one answering questions just to keep it consistant.
EDIT
If you would like to present your own points - do it by starting your own thread - off topic unrelated posts will be deleted here. Seriously guys - no posting junk or spin or anything or silly comments. I want this to be just strightforward and clean - don't reply to other people - ask your own questions or follow ups. Please be sensible here

I'll edit this as I need to to address any more concern that come up

Asalamu alakum,

Are the family of the Prophet Mohammad "ali, fatima, hasan, husain, and prophet mohammad" sinless :P and pure

Surah 33:33 :)

ma salama

Asalamu alakum,

Are the family of the Prophet Mohammad "ali, fatima, hasan, husain, and prophet mohammad" sinless :P and pure

Surah 33:33 :)

ma salama

Incorrect translation/not seen in this verse as seen here

link (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/033.qmt.html)


YUSUFALI: And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.

No mention is made of anyone being sinless in this verse. it says god "wishs" - but does not directly say they are without fault. Even the prophet made "mistakes" when they were followed by revelation to show lessons to mankind (but the Prophet himself never sinned - all Prophets never sinned)

Other translations show that it was instructing people to cleanse themselves - but nothing showing they were without sin in this verse

Can you please describe the relationship and importance of the other Holy Books to Islam, eg the Pentateuch, 'Old' Testament, and 'New' Testament. Also what is a good synopsis of the religion, its holy book, main teachings, holy men, and history.

-WhyBother?

Another question,

Why do men have inheritence which equals that of 2 woman?

Another question,

Why do men have inheritence which equals that of 2 woman?

Religiously (society no longer follows this as it once did) women had very few if any financial burdens in the household. The financial was the man's job - it was his job to provide for the household. Quick note - individual households may make individual decisions. The money the husband makes is used to support his family and lifestyle for himself and his wife. The wife must be content with her lifestyle (within means of course (a poor wife can not demand her husband make them rich if it is not within his means, etc)) Also if the woman works - her husband is NOT allowed to touch that money unless she allows him to - the money she makes is hers and only hers unless she choses otherwise.

This lead to inhertence - since the men are financial responsible - they recieve more to assist them. The women still recieve.

Now in today's time - say it there is a son and daugher. The son is careless and foolish with his money while the daughter is wise and smart with hers. If an inheritance comes in and the one died dictated to the caretaker no money is to go to the son because of his condition - or he made the daughter the caretaker - she would be able to get her share - and be the caretaker for the rest in case her brother ever came around.
It is not an unconditional rule - but a rule to show general guidelines on how inheirtence can be distributed if no stipulation (will) was left.

2 points to start with:

1.) Why is Iran Warrior's post hidden to me? Is this MY browser or is it hidden by the moderator? (Incidentally, I see I_W is here in Wisconsin. I look forward to an accidental meeting at some point in the future to discuss Iranian Politics and Religion to further my understanding of those who might have differences with my country and it's policies.)

2.) I welcome a BRILLIANT idea. A chance to beter understand a faith and it's people that we are currently at odds with makes me feel that there is hope for LESS violence, and MORE mutaul sharing of the GOOD parts of our heritages.

My question to mohater:
As previously touched on in another thread, mohater, could you explain to me:

1.) The players:
......a.) Political divisions in the ME, specifically, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebenon, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Jordan &/or any others you may feel should be included in the "players list". The Palastinian area can be left out of the equation except where it is necessary to explain a standing difference in a particular country's major political splits.
......b.) Religious divisions or "sects". Please include, by rough percentage shares, the constituancy of the divisions in each of the above named countries, the number in aggregate of one's having even a significant though smaller following, and those which may be extremly small but have an orverarching influence on the major players due to the fanaticism or devotion of it's adherants.

mohater, I know these 2 are BIG questions. I feel a better understanding of the actors is important to a better understanding of the play. If you chose to go "short form" I will understand, but will also be eternally grateful for the "long form" should you undertake the VERY heavy workload. I will not debate or critisize any quantitative statements. I simply want to better understand the seperation in the political divisions & "sects" & how they are intertwined. Feel free to use Arabic words at any time. Sometimes using the native tongue is constructive as the surrounding context of a foreign word can shed much light on it's meaning with a little "googling" by the reader, as the "hiijra" definition in relationship to "fatwa" did for me in another thread.

Religiously (society no longer follows this as it once did) women had very few if any financial burdens in the household. The financial was the man's job - it was his job to provide for the household. Quick note - individual households may make individual decisions. The money the husband makes is used to support his family and lifestyle for himself and his wife. The wife must be content with her lifestyle (within means of course (a poor wife can not demand her husband make them rich if it is not within his means, etc)) Also if the woman works - her husband is NOT allowed to touch that money unless she allows him to - the money she makes is hers and only hers unless she choses otherwise.

This leader tho inhertence - since the men are financial responsible - they recieve more to assist them. The women still recieve.

Now in today's time - say it there is a son and daugher. The son is careless and foolish with his money while the daughter is wise and smart with hers. If an inheritance comes in and the one died dictated to the caretaker no money is to go to the son because of his condition - or he made the daughter the caretaker - she would be able to get her share - and be the caretaker for the rest in case her brother ever came around.
It is not an unconditional rule - but a rule to show general guidelines on how inheirtence can be distributed if no stipulation (will) was left.


Thank you, and also I would like to add, that There is a dowry that the man has to pay to the wife "at the wedding or after" The wife can ask for the dowry at any time

and usually back in my parents time it used to be 350 gold coins,

but now its like 600.
the reason for the dowry is that, before the prophets time, people were just divorcing very easily, there had to be a little lock to prevent that.

so if a man wants to divorce his wife, he has to pay the 350 gold coins.

and also, the woman can take any money she desires from her husbands acount, as it is the husbands responsibility to care for his wife

thank you

My question to mohater:
As previously touched on in another thread, mohater, could you explain to me:

1.) The players:
......a.) Political divisions in the ME, specifically, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebenon, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Jordan &/or any others you may feel should be included in the "players list". The Palastinian area can be left out of the equation except where it is necessary to explain a standing difference in a particular country's major political splits.
With the different countries that are pre-dominatly Sunni - there are what is known as books of thought. These were people in the past who went far and wide to get the nitty gritty details on the life of the Prophet Muhammad. Between them you find almost ZERO contradictions - what you find is small differences. For example - one book of thought says that when preforming ablution for prayer - if you have done it before without socks - you may just wipe the tops of your socks with damp hands (called a "ruksa" or making something more convinient)- another says you must remove your socks and wash you feet. In the end both people are proforming ablution to prepare for prayer.

Outside of the books of though (there are 4 major books (or authors)) there are also sects within the Sunni's - the selafis, wah'habis, etc. Then also there is A LOT of people who mix culture/tribal things with religion. This is the cause of a great deal or problems (gang rape in pakistan, chewing 'qaat' in Yemen, etc). Finally many of the dictatorships (Saudi, Jordan, Egypt, Libya) hold the power unconditionally - before the split after WWII of the Ottoman Empire - the entire area was known as "belad usham" or Greater Sham (sham means Damascus) and the passports back then reflected that. The area was Syria, Jordan, Palestine (now Israel) part of Iraq, and bits of other places.

I will probably add more to this later

......b.) Religious divisions or "sects". Please include, by rough percentage shares, the constituancy of the divisions in each of the above named countries.

Part of this is stated above. The 3 main sects are Sufi, Sunni and Shiite. Sufi is the most recent of the 3 - they take the most spiritual route (chants, etc). There are many smaller sects (Durzi, Alloyite, Bah'ai, Ismalili) but some of them are WAAAAY off the map from mainstream Islam.
Sunni/Shiite is where there seems to be more of a conflict. The root of the cause as Iran stated above is that many people felt Ali should have been the next leader because he was "of the house" or related to the Prophet. Leadership was given to Abu Bakr - the Prophet's lifetime friend and first one who entered the faith. As time progressed there were many groups striving for power and many of the leaders were assassinated (most noted - Omar and Ali). After Ali was killed - and almost his entire family - there became more of a seperation between the groups - and then some began to say that Ali was to recieve the Prophecy and the Angel Gabrial made a mistake when giving the revelation.

As for countries - I am not sure. I know in Iraq the media plays games with stats because Kurds are predomintaly - Sunni. So they say the three groups are Kurds, Sunni and Shiite, where they are mixing religious sects with cultural backgrounds. Iran is predomintaly Shiite, but you find many Sunni there. Lebanon is probably 55% Shiite, 45% Sunni. Pakistan is like a smogerborg of things along with some other areas where tribes are very powerful.

More to come later

Thank you, and also I would like to add, that There is a dowry that the man has to pay to the wife "at the wedding or after" The wife can ask for the dowry at any time

and usually back in my parents time it used to be 350 gold coins,

but now its like 600.
the reason for the dowry is that, before the prophets time, people were just divorcing very easily, there had to be a little lock to prevent that.

so if a man wants to divorce his wife, he has to pay the 350 gold coins.

and also, the woman can take any money she desires from her husbands acount, as it is the husbands responsibility to care for his wife

thank you

Dowry is not a requirment - it is up the the two parties to decide if they want one. The point of the dowry is IN case of a divorce - the wife will have something to use until she situates herself with work, back with family, or remarry. Dowry is also SET before the parties agree to marry - when she recieves it is up to them again.
The dowry is not to prevent divorce. If they decide - she gets here money no matter what. Divorce is the most hated thing in Islam that is religously permissible - why? Because it ruins households but hey sometimes it just doesn't work out and it's better to seperate (now it is an epidemic)

As a follow up on your reference link on 33:33:
there appear to be 3 translations. I had heard it stated that the 3rd caliph "finalized" the Qu'an. Does this mean there are STILL people interpreting the Qu'an and if so, which of those 3 are most modern.
Yusufali appears more traditional, as if we heard a "closest" approximate translation
Pickthal appears to be using more "biblical" language with LO! and -"ath"s somewhat reminiscent of Medival times.
Shakir appears to be translating in modern "everyday" conversation as though Shakir were more familiar with modern idiomatic English.

A "scholar" is one who's word is sought and respected. Since I do not study the Qu'an, (or at least have not done so in over 30 years-there once was a time), you become my default "scholar" as I have no other handy without a searching out and devotion to study. And what would necessarily make THAT person any more trusted than you? I have seen evidence that you may be as informed as any, on this subject, in this forum. (Can I NEVER make a statement without qualifiers in them?<slaps self>) :P

As a follow up on your reference link on 33:33:
there appear to be 3 translations. I had heard it stated that the 3rd caliph "finalized" the Qu'an. Does this mean there are STILL people interpreting the Qu'an and if so, which of those 3 are most modern.
Yusufali appears more traditional, as if we heard a "closest" approximate translation
Pickthal appears to be using more "biblical" language with LO! and -"ath"s somewhat reminiscent of Medival times.
Shakir appears to be translating in modern "everyday" conversation as though Shakir were more familiar with modern idiomatic English.


I am looking into that before I reply to his answer,

The thing is, some translaters dont use the exact arabic word

for example, there was an ayat that says we put the earth out like a carpet.

but the arabic word means spread.

so its just a matter if you know someone that knows arabic or not ;)

1. For muslims is there a hell?
2. Are there different levels of 'sin', or is everything equally bad?

1) Why are there different sects of Islam like Sunni, Shiite, etc. Why do they not like each other? Wouldn't that be similar to Baptists disliking Protestants? But, that's not the case in Christianity. Why is it in Islam? (not that I am an authority on Christianity. I probably know more about Islam than I do about Christianity).

2) Is it taught only in the extremist part of Islam not to fear death? Or is it taught to all Muslims not to fear death? Do Muslims actually truly believe that there are 72 virgins waiting for them on "the other side?"

1. For muslims is there a hell?
2. Are there different levels of 'sin', or is everything equally bad?



Im sorry mohater but I am very tempted to answering this one.

for the first question yes, we have heaven and hell as the other respective religions.

question 2. "gets a book": Ok there are 2 different levels of sins.

the lesser and greater sins, saqira and kabeera.

for example, shirk "partner with god"

that is a greater sin, also lieing is a greater sin.

homosexuality,

adultery, and the list goes on

the greater sins are called that if Allah "god" promises hell in the holy quran.

as for the lesser sins, if you do them over and over again without repenting, it is counted as a greater sin

I hope I helped,
also sorry mohater, but yesterday we were talking about this subject :) and I really wanted to input :)

1) Why are there different sects of Islam like Sunni, Shiite, etc. Why do they not like each other?




as for the 1st question, I would be almost the perfect one to answer as the rest sometimes lie or say something bad about us shias.

see bro, when the holy prophet died, there were a group of people "omar , abu bakr, and co." went and "stole" the leader ship and they got "elected"

they disagreed with the family of the prophet and usurped them as well.

the sunni believe as abu bakr as the rightful leader

the shia believe that imam ali was the rightful believer

but its not like I hate the sunni, I love them too :)

as for the second question, I have to go, im a guest at a friends house.

why are you lieing?

please delete your post as it is un true.

I do not believe the imam ali was the prophet after prophet mohammad.

thank you :rolleyes:

Why do you automatically believe he is lying? If someone believes what they are saying is true, but they are misinformed (I don’t know if he is or he isn't), is this considered a lie to you? If so, you better be damn careful because according to your previous post lying is a "greater sin".

I hope when that day come when you are faced with judgment, that you never repeated misinformation in your lifetime, b/c according to your logic, you will be going to hell... :reaper:

1. For muslims is there a hell?
2. Are there different levels of 'sin', or is everything equally bad?

1. Yes - and being muslim alone does not get you a free pass away from hell
2. Yes - there a greater and lesser sins and Iran mentioned. Smaller sins include over eating, cursing, etc
Greater sins, disrespecting parents, taking someones rights, adultry

As a follow up on your reference link on 33:33:
there appear to be 3 translations. I had heard it stated that the 3rd caliph "finalized" the Qu'an. Does this mean there are STILL people interpreting the Qu'an and if so, which of those 3 are most modern.
Yusufali appears more traditional, as if we heard a "closest" approximate translation
Pickthal appears to be using more "biblical" language with LO! and -"ath"s somewhat reminiscent of Medival times.
Shakir appears to be translating in modern "everyday" conversation as though Shakir were more familiar with modern idiomatic English.

No - there are three tranlastions because of the way words translate - but as you see there no real "disagreement" between them.
Finalized meant mass production of publishing. At that time were the "rida" battles or the battles or people attempting to change the religion - so many scholars were dying in battles and the Quran had not yet been written - thus the leader found it necessary to get it written down as he was afraid it would be lost forever.

A "scholar" is one who's word is sought and respected. Since I do not study the Qu'an, (or at least have not done so in over 30 years-there once was a time), you become my default "scholar" as I have no other handy without a searching out and devotion to study. And what would necessarily make THAT person any more trusted than you? I have seen evidence that you may be as informed as any, on this subject, in this forum. (Can I NEVER make a statement without qualifiers in them?) :P

Whatever - we are only trying to open the doors here

1) Why are there different sects of Islam like Sunni, Shiite, etc. Why do they not like each other? Wouldn't that be similar to Baptists disliking Protestants? But, that's not the case in Christianity. Why is it in Islam? (not that I am an authority on Christianity. I probably know more about Islam than I do about Christianity).

2) Is it taught only in the extremist part of Islam not to fear death? Or is it taught to all Muslims not to fear death? Do Muslims actually truly believe that there are 72 virgins waiting for them on "the other side?"

It's not that they do not like eachother - the ones on the extremes bring about their differences instead of their similarities. If you look however at Iraq before the war - Iran said even though Iraq butcherd it's people before - they would be there to support them after the fall of Saddam.
Sunni have nothing to do with Abu Bakr as the successor. The Shiite came about first because they thought Ali was to be the Prophet - and the angel Gabrial made a mistake. This expanded out when he was only the fourth leader after the prophet and was then assassinated. When he was dying - he instructed not to be buried but to be tied to a horse and sent to the desert. Why? He had those that almost were worshiping him and he had those who wanted to desecrate his grave - so he thought it best that NO one know where he would be buried - some nomads probably found him and buried him.

We are taught that death is noth something to fear - death is as natural as birth. The extrmist take those who have not much to live for and give false promises if they go in their cause. It is said the martyrs in the path of the religion (ie dying defending the oppressed, etc) are rewarded in the after life - and the word "virgins" does not fit here. It is said they are rewarded with women whose beauty could not be seen on this life. So the extremist who recruit using this take people who probably do not know the religion and ignore the part about killing innocents (basicly if you kill one person who is innocent intentionally - you are practially condemning yourself to hell according to the quran - but only god can be the judge that).

Mav follow up if I have not answered your question

1) There are only 2 types of Muslims. Sunni's beleive that Muhammed was the last Prophet, or messenger of God. Shiite's beleive that there was another Prophet, after Muhammed, who was Ali.

2) Muslims do fear death, since, they know that after death, will be the "Day Of Judgement", when God questions the human. And about the virgins, I don't know.

Incorrect my friend - there are the extreme shiite - who say the angel Gabrial made a mistake and gave prophecy to the wrong person - and there are those who say that he was the rightful leader after the Prophet because he was "of the house". There are also Sufi, Durzi, Alloyite, etc etc.

About death again wrong. We are taught not to fear death (natural or whatever) because there is life after death. While it is on the day of judgement there is great fear and worrying - it is said those who are true believers (note in the Quran it uses the word "believers", not muslims) are content because they have given their lives to god, through charity, being good to neighbors/family, etc - and for them the day of judgement passes painlessly - while those who know they are in dispair are scared.

Deleted

What evidence confirms for you first that Allah exists, and second that Mohammed was his prophet?

What evidence confirms for you first that Allah exists, and second that Mohammed was his prophet?


see brother, the first question is answered only by ourselves.

Allah means God.

Look around you, look at the complexity around us, there has to be a being that created all this.

but really this question is like a question for all religions and cant really be answered by someone else

the second question.

WE believe that the prophet mohammad was prophecized "spelling" in the bible and torah, and some did become muslim after the prophet arrived.

for christians, they deny jews "?" and muslims.

jews, they deny christians "jesus didnt come they say" and muslims

for muslims, we believe EVERY PROPHET is true, we believe that all these religions are profected into islam.

Am I to believe that jesus hasnt come yet?

It is not my right to say which prophet has come and which hasnt.

but really, these kinds of questions, the answers are different from different religions :)

I hope you got my point :)

mohater,
Do Muslims consider Allah to be the same God as the the Christian God? I think I read something once about us all being children of Abraham. But, I don't know who the heck Abraham is. Can you help me on this one? Is that just another name for God kinda like Elohim and Yahweh?

What evidence confirms for you first that Allah exists, and second that Mohammed was his prophet?

The same question can be given to any Christian or Jew - and much of the same answer would probably be given.

Allah's existence is cited through the Quran where things are explained that people could not observe at that time. For example in the Quran there is a pretty detailed timeline of the development of a fetus - which was not discovered until the 20th century. Also as stated above - the complexity of the world, humans, plants, etc, is another.
As for the Prophecy - there were signs as there were in Prophets before. One was he had a mark on his back (some say a birth mark, some say a pattern of moles, etc.) Some of the signs were - once while traveling to Damascus to do trading as a child (to learn, etc) - a Christian Monk saw the caravan and saw a single could only covering that small group - and following that one part of the caravan. He spoke with those individuals and asked the Muhammad (this was before he was given revelation of the prophecy) about him, his parents, other strange events (and I believe he saw the mark on his back - but unsure about that last point). He then said be wary and protect this boy in the future as a time will come in the future where the message you bring will be rejected by the majority - and the monk was old and said he probably would not live to see him recieve the prophecy - but he wished to be one who stood by him.

There are other examples if you would like Xnarg. Let me know

mohater,
Do Muslims consider Allah to be the same God as the the Christian God? I think I read something once about us all being children of Abraham. But, I don't know who the heck Abraham is. Can you help me on this one? Is that just another name for God kinda like Elohim and Yahweh?


Yes, the god of the Jews and Christians, the god of Abraham, Moses and Jesus.

Abraham was the "father" of the Prophets. From his decendants on one side were Moses, Jesus, etc. From the other side (much much later) was Muhammad.

Thus it is commonly referred that Muslims, Christians and Jews are "cousins" because of where the religion originated.

Can you please describe the relationship and importance of the other Holy Books to Islam, eg the Pentateuch, 'Old' Testament, and 'New' Testament. Also what is a good synopsis of the religion, its holy book, main teachings, holy men, and history.

-WhyBother?

Wow I missed this one - so here goes

The three books (Bible, Quran, and Torrah) have a lot of similarities in them. With recpect to Abraham and his kids, Noah, John, etc.

We as muslims believe they were revelations from God - First the Torrah - replaced later by the Bible, and finally replaced by the Quran.

There are some diversions when it comes to Jacob, Jesus, Moses (not many with Moses), Mary, Adam and Eve.
For example - Christians believe Eve tempted Adam to eat from the tree - and thus women were set to suffer from labor pains because of this. Muslims believe they were equally at fault for disobeying their lord due to the devil tempting them to eat - and labor pains = ultimate respect and care for one's mother because of what she tolerated. There was a saying by the prophet Muhammad where a man asked if he could repay the debt to his mother by carrying her on his shoulders and doing the entire pilgramige that way (5 days) - he replied you would not repay her for even one contraction.

Synposis - be honest, just, and pure. Live by example from those who came before you, following those who were good and disobeying those who rejected the message from god. Holy men - Moses, Jesus, Noah, John, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, etc etc - with Muhammad being the last one.

Be specific if you want history - the book has the story of Adam and Muhamad in it - and every Prophet in between.

...There are other examples if you would like Xnarg. Let me knowI'm interested in contemporary examples of why Muhammad is thought to have been a prophet, more so than stories about what happened centuries ago.

I'm interested in contemporary examples of why Muhammad is thought to have been a prophet, more so than stories about what happened centuries ago.
From PM

Some religious people say that they are spoken to by their God and one of His prophets. I am curious if that phenomenon occurs frequently in Islam as well.

We believe that god spoke directly to only 2 men (I will double check this tonight after work) - Moses and Muhammad. The rest were given signs through revelation, dreams, or powers (Jesus brought back the dead, etc)

We believe that if you ask for guidance from god he may guide you - but do not look for signs so quickly - or turn everything into a sign. We believe somewhat into the concept of "fate" - or that certain things may be pre-determined for some people - but who knows what is and what isn't. God responds in a multitude of ways to people - in dreams, fortune, misfortune, etc. People (lots of them people) claim god or something commanded them to do something, or had a dream or blah blah blah. I would say some of those stories may be true - but I feel most of them are false where people are looking to benifit themselves financially from their "visions"

With respect to direct communication - no. I feel this is how the Church controlls the power - claiming they have/had direct contact with the lord and requests had to be filtered through them. In Islam people who make such asserations should be discredited - as it seems that would mainly lead to a power grab.

Why do women have to cover themselves from head to toe in Muslim countries? I would think that with the ridiculous heat over there that it would be unbearable. I have always wondered that. Thanks.

Why do women have to cover themselves from head to toe in Muslim countries? I would think that with the ridiculous heat over there that it would be unbearable. I have always wondered that. Thanks.


The covering of women is for modesty - or to protect society from itself. Men have to dress modestly too - and it seems unfair - but when you think about who has to suffer in the event of an unwanted pregnancy - it's usually the female. Also who is usually left behind when relationships turn sour and must deal with the child - the female. Also when looking at males/females and who pursues the other more - it defanitly seems men chase after women more based on looks alone. So this in a sense is to protect the women - not to force them below men. Looking at it from this point - I actually am somewhat of an advocate for it - I feel women "exposing" themselves to show they are free and are in control of their bodies leave nothing for their spouse for their private life. Imagine marrying a famous actor/actress who has been naked in movies, or some person whose picture was plastered all over the net, people walking around would know how they look without clothes - you have nothing personal for your spouse to show that you have saved for them.

If you look at Afganistan - even after we "freed" them - most women you see walking around still wear the burqa. Another thing is the amount of covering they wear - in many areas it is mixed cultural with religious.

Most scholars agree that women should cover their hair, ears and necks. Also dress modestly exposing only their hands and face (some say feet are ok too). So here in the US you see many women who cover their hair with the scarf - but wear jeans and a long sleeve t-shirt, or a long skirt with and a shirt with long sleeves.

All the girls in my family cover (4 sisters and mom - and my 3 sisters in law) cover - some wear the long garb on the outside (like a thin overcoat) and some do not, but they all wear the scarf over their heads.

Be specific if you want history - the book has the story of Adam and Muhamad in it - and every Prophet in between.

Specifically I am looking for the history of Mohammed (sp?) and immediately following his death.

From what I've read, he was given his revelation, was driven from Mecca to Medina, then returned to conquer Mecca. After his death there were two schools of thought on the 'next in line' so to speak, since he had no son. One being the 'heir' should stay in the family, the other that the 'heir' should be a scholar.

Like I said, it's just what I remember, so please correct me and fill in the gaps. Thanks.

-WhyBother?

Mo - Do many muslims still believe that Salmon Rushdie should die, as has been represented in popular media channels?

Also, what is the difference between Sunni and Shia (or Shiite?) Islam?

Thanks.

The covering of women is for modesty - or to protect society from itself. Men have to dress modestly too - and it seems unfair - but when you think about who has to suffer in the event of an unwanted pregnancy - it's usually the female. Also who is usually left behind when relationships turn sour and must deal with the child - the female. Also when looking at males/females and who pursues the other more - it defanitly seems men chase after women more based on looks alone. So this in a sense is to protect the women - not to force them below men. Looking at it from this point - I actually am somewhat of an advocate for it - I feel women "exposing" themselves to show they are free and are in control of their bodies leave nothing for their spouse for their private life. Imagine marrying a famous actor/actress who has been naked in movies, or some person whose picture was plastered all over the net, people walking around would know how they look without clothes - you have nothing personal for your spouse to show that you have saved for them.

If you look at Afganistan - even after we "freed" them - most women you see walking around still wear the burqa. Another thing is the amount of covering they wear - in many areas it is mixed cultural with religious.

Most scholars agree that women should cover their hair, ears and necks. Also dress modestly exposing only their hands and face (some say feet are ok too). So here in the US you see many women who cover their hair with the scarf - but wear jeans and a long sleeve t-shirt, or a long skirt with and a shirt with long sleeves.

All the girls in my family cover (4 sisters and mom - and my 3 sisters in law) cover - some wear the long garb on the outside (like a thin overcoat) and some do not, but they all wear the scarf over their heads.
I understand all that... but isn't it unbearable in the heat? I would imagine it would be torturous for the women to have to swelter in all that garb.

I understand all that... but isn't it unbearable in the heat? I would imagine it would be torturous for the women to have to swelter in all that garb.

You are correct - (my little sisters complain about the heat) - but they understand why they wear it - it's a part of their identity of who they are. Not sure it "torturous" is a word they would use -

Mo - Do many muslims still believe that Salmon Rushdie should die, as has been represented in popular media channels?

Also, what is the difference between Sunni and Shia (or Shiite?) Islam?

Thanks.

No - it's amazing that so many people think all muslims want to kill Rusdie, when there are guys like Danial Pipes, Billy Graham and co, etc, who are like 100,000,000e1000000000 times worse than him when they try to "paint the true picture" of Islam. Yet no one has said they should be killed. Rushdie has one book - those guys have hundreds of books, audio tapes, cds, interviews, etc - so here it's the media playing up something stupid.


Many of the differences between Sunni Shiite have been noted in other posts. Mr Iran's post stating the Sunnis "stole" the leadership is how the Shiite claim rights to what happened is really not true. While Ali was an excellent canidate - most felt Abu Bakr was better suited - thus Abu Bakr was made leader - many people cite he was of the Prophet's family was reason for him to be leader - I find that a strange way of deciding who should take leadership - based on family name (isn't that what kings do?).
Back then there was no real Sunni/Shiite issue - it started then with a desire for power, and then evolved into what it is now. Then it got worse when Ali and most of his family were all assassinated (even though many others outside of his family were killed at that same time). Now it is how you see it today - with the Shiite doing the "Ashura" or month of mourning where they blame themselves by beating themselves (some with just little pats with their hands, others with knives and chains and bloody themselves pretty badly)for the slaughter of the family of Ali. Which the news LOOOVES to cover and plaster picutres of people and their self inflicted wounds in Iran and Lebanon.

You are correct - (my little sisters complain about the heat) - but they understand why they wear it - it's a part of their identity of who they are. Not sure it "torturous" is a word they would use -

So, how would your family react if your sisters decided they didn't want to wear it anymore?

So, how would your family react if your sisters decided they didn't want to wear it anymore?

They would take it rather hard - how hard I do not know. My older sister was a rebel for a while - not with religous things but with how she carried herself. Dropped of out college to jump on the .com boom - did her own thing for like 3-4 years with careers, went on tour with Jurassic 5, Weezer, etc for these .coms and was still wearing her scarf the whole time.

With the way I read the parts of the Quran that say for women to cover - I took away that message - some others take it as women should just dress modestly but not have to cover their hair.

I may revisit this later.

Off topic question... what the heck is your avatar?

So there is no religious/philosophical difference between shiites and sunnis? Is it just a political difference, then?

Off topic question... what the heck is your avatar?

Sam and Max - from the popular PC game from the later 1990's - Sam and Max hit the road -

Same guys who made Day of the Tentacle

They would take it rather hard - how hard I do not know. My older sister was a rebel for a while - not with religous things but with how she carried herself. Dropped of out college to jump on the .com boom - did her own thing for like 3-4 years with careers, went on tour with Jurassic 5, Weezer, etc for these .coms and was still wearing her scarf the whole time.

With the way I read the parts of the Quran that say for women to cover - I took away that message - some others take it as women should just dress modestly but not have to cover their hair.

I may revisit this later.

Just curious though, do you not find that women are treated unfairly in Islam? Is it not right that men have so many more freedoms and liberties than women? Why does it seem to many people that Islam is much slower than any other religion to adapt to the times? Do you feel this is harmful to Islam that they do not adapt to the changing times as well?

Not sure if you ever heard about this. But, there was a Muslim woman who was getting her picture taken for a driver's license. She said because of her faith, she could not remove her burqa which covered 100% of her face and head. So, they denied her a license. Do you find this proper here in America? Do you think it was justified for her to sue the state DMV? Should they have allowed her to have the license with her face fully covered?

So there is no religious/philosophical difference between shiites and sunnis? Is it just a political difference, then?

It started off political way back when - but now there are some differences. It's all relative though - like the Shiite in Yeman are Zaydi Shiites - which are practiclly Sunnis. The Shiite in Iran - some pray slightly different then some Sunnis, some make abultion differently. There are also some Shiite that curse upon the leaders who were in charge before Ali (Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman) - those are usually the hardcore Shiite. Some hardcore Shiite put Ali on the same level as the Prophet.

On the moderates you find very few differneces in religious/philosophical - on the extremes sometimes you find major differences.

Which is why as I stated above - when Ali was dying he instructed to be tied to a horse and sent away. He was afraid those who were too close of supporters and followers may begin to pray to him after he died, and he knew he had enemies who wanted nothing more than to ruin him even after death. He wanted no one to know where he was buried to give neither side the satisfaction of "winning".

Just curious though, do you not find that women are treated unfairly in Islam? Is it not right that men have so many more freedoms and liberties than women? Why does it seem to many people that Islam is much slower than any other religion to adapt to the times? Do you feel this is harmful to Islam that they do not adapt to the changing times as well?
How though - what freedoms in Islam in it's pure form do women not have? Please be specific here as I can't address such a broad question. I find Islam protects women and gives them more rights than most other religions - just people in the Gulf skew it and make rulings that are in reality against Islam. What has changed to make something in Islam obsolete? Again be specific


Not sure if you ever heard about this. But, there was a Muslim woman who was getting her picture taken for a driver's license. She said because of her faith, she could not remove her burqa which covered 100% of her face and head. So, they denied her a license. Do you find this proper here in America? Do you think it was justified for her to sue the state DMV? Should they have allowed her to have the license with her face fully covered?

She chose to wear the buraq - she refused to remove it. I see no mention of someone forcing it upon her. I find that more than 100% acceptable because she is practicing what she believes is right. If it was forced upon her than no I would not agree - but without knowing that than it seems she made her own decison here. If the DMV has a rule she must show her face - she has to if she wants a license. One of the rules in Islam is when you live in a foreign land - you must respect the laws of that land. Therefore if the DMV has that requirement - and she wants to wear the burqa - then she doesn't get a license.
No I do not think she should have sued.

I view the burqa as optional - I have found no citation of it being required in the religion - but again I am no scholar by any means.

How though - what freedoms in Islam in it's pure form do women not have? Please be specific here as I can't address such a broad question. I find Islam protects women and gives them more rights than most other religions - just people in the Gulf skew it and make rulings that are in reality against Islam. What has changed to make something in Islam obsolete? Again be specific


I don't exactly know how to define the "pure form" of Islam. So, I'm not going to know fully what is accepted in this pure form and what is not. But, in some countries, women are not allowed to drive, get a job, or go to school. Then, you have some who are only allowed to get the education in separate classrooms. Are these all skewed versions of Islam? In the "real" Islam are women allowed these things? Why is it altered so easily in some countries? Is the Koran very vague in it's interpretation of what Muhammed taught?

Thanks for answering the driver's license question. Many Muslims in Florida felt that she should have been able to have her picture taken with the burqa on. But, that's a huge security violation. Anyone could then use her license. A driver's license is a privilege, not a right.

Mr Iran's post stating the Sunnis "stole" the leadership is how the Shiite claim rights to what happened is really not true. While Ali was an excellent canidate - most felt Abu Bakr was better suited - thus Abu Bakr was made leader - many people cite he was of the Prophet's family was reason for him to be leader - I find that a strange way of deciding who should take leadership - based on family name (isn't that what kings do?).


:)
*steps up to the podium with a breifcase of important papers*

first I shall bring forth some sahih hadiths then I will start with my argument

Sahih al Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 157 Bab ul Nikah: "Fatima is a part of my body, and I hate what she hates to see, and what hurts her, hurts me."

Self explanatory

Sahih al Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 61, Bab Fadail Fatima: Allah's Apostle said, "Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry."

Self explanatory


We read in Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325:

Page 29 of 237
Narrated 'Ayesha: (mother of the believers) After the death of Allah's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqah (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle.

note above that fatima "a.s." anger is that of the prophets anger, and the prophets anger is that of allahs anger.

about allahs anger please ask and I will give hadith on that.

We read in Sahih Muslim: Narrated Ayesha: One day the Prophet (PBUH&HF) came out afternoon wearing a black cloak (upper garment or gown; long coat), then al-Hasan Ibn Ali came and the Prophet

Page 53 of 237
accommodated him under the cloak, then al-Hussain came and entered the cloak, then Fatimah came and the Prophet entered her under the cloak, then Ali came and the Prophet entered him to the cloak as well. Then the Prophet recited: "Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O' People of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you with a perfect purification (the last sentence of Verse 33:33)."

Shows the purity and status of our noble lady fatima ta zahra bint mohammad (p.b.u.h)


Fatima made a claim that Rasulullah (s) left Fadak for her and she presented the testimonies of Umm Ayman and 'Ali in her favour, yet the criteria for witness numbers was not met. There are differences amongst the scholars as to whether a husband can testify in favour of a claim made by his wife. It can also be said that Fatima did not ask her witnesses to make a claim on oath. People have also said that Hassan, Husayn and Umm Kalthum testified in support of Fatima's claim, this is Batil, the testimony of offspring or underage children in favour of their parents is unacceptable. Sawaiq al-Muhriqa, Page 138 & 139

Now, When abu bakr said that prophets leave no inheritence, fatima (a.s.) brought forth quran ayats and hadith that proved him wrong but he did not budge.

the land of fadak which was givin to her as a gift was taken away, abu bakr asked for witnesses.

she brought forth um ayman and imam ali, he said that is not enough.

so she brought imam hassan and imam hussain, but he said that they were too young.

the sunni like to attack this and say that oh they are young and not baliq.

BUT, *brings ayat*

Allah (swt) made Hassan (as) and Husayn (as) witnesses to the Prophethood whilst they were still infants
Allah (swt) declares in Surah Aal-e-Imran verse 061: If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge Hath come to thee, say: "Come! let us gather together,- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!" Al-Qur'an Surah Al-e-Imran, Ayah 61, translated by Yusufali

our women is fatima, our sons is hassan and hussain, and ourselves is prophet mohammad and imam ali.

any sunni tafsir book would say that, unless its the NEWEST VERSION of a tafsir, cuz it is very against them ;)



"This is my brother,Ali, Wasi (agent) and successor among you. Listen to him and obey him". This can be located in the following esteemed Sunni works:
1. Tareekh Tabari, (English translation) , Vol 6 pp 90-91


Now that the prophet said this, Who is abu bakr to come and say "OH, I am the wasi of the prophet and I can divide the shares AND claim imamate?"

ma salama

How do you explain the New Testament documents and how do you view them? They make specific claims that Jesus is in fact God as recorded by his disciples which you've said followers of Islam do not believe.
Where do you get the teachings of Jesus from if you don't use the New Testament?
How do you view the 12 apostles?
Is there a "Holy Spirit" in Islam? A spirit of God among us?
Do you believe that Christians and Jews are condemned to Hell if they do not convert to Islam and believe in the teaching of the Quran? God is the final judge of course, but what do you believe based on what you've been taught?


I'm sure I'll think of more :)

I don't exactly know how to define the "pure form" of Islam. So, I'm not going to know fully what is accepted in this pure form and what is not. But, in some countries, women are not allowed to drive, get a job, or go to school. Then, you have some who are only allowed to get the education in separate classrooms. Are these all skewed versions of Islam? In the "real" Islam are women allowed these things? Why is it altered so easily in some countries? Is the Koran very vague in it's interpretation of what Muhammed taught?

Thanks for answering the driver's license question. Many Muslims in Florida felt that she should have been able to have her picture taken with the burqa on. But, that's a huge security violation. Anyone could then use her license. A driver's license is a privilege, not a right.

Yes - banning women to drive is wrong - banning women to work is wrong. Banning women from education is wrong. Forcing women into sub-par education systems is wrong. It's not that it the Quran is vague - it's there were no cars back then and no BIG cities like we have today - thus with the issue of driving - the Saudi's released a fatwa banning women from driving. Now they repealed it - yet it's still illegal for women to drive.

From the edu point of view - remember many of those countries are still in the early stages of development - many times people will cite religious reasons for not allowing women to become educated - but think about it. If there is barely enough resources to cover the men to get educated and try and bring their families out of the gutters - would you think there's room to support the women? Women have only had full edu rights in this country for about 60-80 years - while we have been an established country for over 200. Some of those places haven't had 100 years to develop themselves. I believe much of this will improve with time.

In "real" Islam - yes women have rights. Women can work, women can become educated. The Prophet's first wife Khadhija, was a trader who was in today's standards a millionaire - and she met him because he was the person who handeled her business out of the city - and married him because of his honesty in his business with her.

Let me know if there is anything else

How do you explain the New Testament documents and how do you view them? They make specific claims that Jesus is in fact God as recorded by his disciples which you've said followers of Islam do not believe.
Where do you get the teachings of Jesus from if you don't use the New Testament?
How do you view the 12 apostles?
Is there a "Holy Spirit" in Islam? A spirit of God among us?
Do you believe that Christians and Jews are condemned to Hell if they do not convert to Islam and believe in the teaching of the Quran? God is the final judge of course, but what do you believe based on what you've been taught?


I'm sure I'll think of more :)

1.The first quesion will require investigating - I will get back to you on this
2. There is a chapter in the Quran about Mary - and gives most of the story of Jesus. There is also other parts about Jesus and how he was betrayed by one of his followers. In Islam - we believe that Jesus was not crucified - but ascended to heaven - and someone (I think who betrayed him) was made to resemble him and was then crucified. One of the last signs of the day of judgement is that the anti christ will come - and many people who are weak of faith will follow him. After he has amassed the lost followers - Jesus will come back and slay him - sending those who followed the anti-christ into fear. Jesus will then die - because he has not yet died (since he ascended to heaven).
3. Will follow up wih #1 hopefully
4.Yes (sort of)- the "holy spirit" figure we believe is the one who delivered the prophecy to all the prophets. While we do not believe this to be a part of god - we believe it to be a servent of god - an angel. The concept of a higher being in Islam is that there is only one - indivisible and without partners.
5.Yes and no at the same time. While we believe that even being Muslim is not a ticket to heaven - there are those who have been Christian/Jew who may enter Paradise. Ignorance in Islam can be an excuse if someone was never able to find the "stright" path (ie someone cut off from the outside and never learned anything except Judaism - but lived a good life). More than one of the people who foretold Prophet Muhammad he was going to be a Prophet were Christian Monks - who knew the signs of Prophecy. Also the Jews of that time in Yethrib (now the city of Medinah) were WAITING for the Prophet to come - as it had been told to them a Prophet would appear in Arabia at that time. So again - here it is yes and no.

I'm interested in what you come up regarding the New Testament and the 12 apostles mohater, mainly because followers of Islam claim that Jesus was a prophet- meaning that he had important teachings and things that believers of Islam should follow. That means his words were very important- the 12 apostles were the primary students of Jesus- he taught them and they followed him for three years. One would think that what they recorded of Jesus's teachings and his life would be very very important to followers of Islam- nearly as important as the teachings of Muhammad as they were both prophets- Muhammad just happend to be the final prophet according to Islam.

If Jesus is supposed to come back (after ascention) according to Islam- it seems like he's a very important figure. By the way Christianity believes that Jesus ascended into Heaven as well- but we also believe that he died a mortal death and that God resurrected him- he then spent more time with the apostles- brought the Holy Spirit- and ascended.

Dowry is not a requirment - it is up the the two parties to decide if they want one. The point of the dowry is IN case of a divorce - the wife will have something to use until she situates herself with work, back with family, or remarry. Dowry is also SET before the parties agree to marry - when she recieves it is up to them again.
The dowry is not to prevent divorce. If they decide - she gets here money no matter what. Divorce is the most hated thing in Islam that is religously permissible - why? Because it ruins households but hey sometimes it just doesn't work out and it's better to seperate (now it is an epidemic)

AlhamdulAllah! Yes brother, dowry is not a requirement it is to protect the woman so she is not stuck in a marriage b/c of money. Islam has a lot of respect for women. I know it is hard to believe to some but it is true.
The prophet (pbuh) I dont want to put it in qoutes b/c is wrong to qoute something you are not 100% sure about but he said something along the lines of: Heaven is at the feet of mothers.....- I cant understand why anyone would continue to think that Islam is a women- opressing religion after hearing how priceless women are.

I am a Muslim woman and I do not feel opressed at all- I feel safe, treasured and HONORED. Remember- God devoted an entire surah (chapter) in the Quran entitled "Women" and it wasnt to tell men how to cover or beat them.
:) :) :) :) :) :)

1.The first quesion will require investigating - I will get back to you on this
2. There is a chapter in the Quran about Mary - and gives most of the story of Jesus. There is also other parts about Jesus and how he was betrayed by one of his followers. In Islam - we believe that Jesus was not crucified - but ascended to heaven - and someone (I think who betrayed him) was made to resemble him and was then crucified. One of the last signs of the day of judgement is that the anti christ will come - and many people who are weak of faith will follow him. After he has amassed the lost followers - Jesus will come back and slay him - sending those who followed the anti-christ into fear. Jesus will then die - because he has not yet died (since he ascended to heaven).
3. Will follow up wih #1 hopefully
4.Yes (sort of)- the "holy spirit" figure we believe is the one who delivered the prophecy to all the prophets. While we do not believe this to be a part of god - we believe it to be a servent of god - an angel. The concept of a higher being in Islam is that there is only one - indivisible and without partners.
5.Yes and no at the same time. While we believe that even being Muslim is not a ticket to heaven - there are those who have been Christian/Jew who may enter Paradise. Ignorance in Islam can be an excuse if someone was never able to find the "stright" path (ie someone cut off from the outside and never learned anything except Judaism - but lived a good life). More than one of the people who foretold Prophet Muhammad he was going to be a Prophet were Christian Monks - who knew the signs of Prophecy. Also the Jews of that time in Yethrib (now the city of Medinah) were WAITING for the Prophet to come - as it had been told to them a Prophet would appear in Arabia at that time. So again - here it is yes and no.


Please allow me to jump in on this -
This was a VERY important concept to me growing up as an American Muslim in Idaho- do Jews and Christans go to heaven? How are they judged?
The prophet Muhammad said "You are judged by the intentions of your actions" This applies to all religions, for if we think about it it would be strange to have a checklist labeled "Baptist," or "Jew"- - we are judged NOT on what a religion sets as criteria but on the inner battle we face every day. Did we do something we knew was wrong? Did we do something to hurt another? To make another look bad?? Or did we do something right? It is OUR INTENTIONS and our intentions alone that will dictate our judgement.
You may now ask- if you are judged by your actions where does religion come in??
That is a good question- you see, religion helps us keep on track... it is what we look to help us fight the good fight (and by that I simply mean be a good person ;-) ) As you know it is hard to be good at times with the way the whole world is right now. Religion is our spiritual pillar.

Here is a beautifull way to think about it- when I was in Idaho I had sooo many dear friends of other faiths and I was hoping that when I went home my mom would tell me they would have the same chance to get to heaven as me and I was so happy when she said the following:
On judgement day we will all walk down a hallway and find our door we will pass doors that say: "Christians Only," "Jews Only," etc until each of us find our own door, then we turn the knob and if we have been more good than bad the door will open. If not, it will remain shut. But you see the beautifull thing about the hallway is that it is a circle, FOR ALL THE DOORS OPEN TO THE SAME HEAVEN!

I hope that helped you- its a simple take but for me I am still moved when I think of it.
:)
:)

How do you explain the New Testament documents and how do you view them? They make specific claims that Jesus is in fact God as recorded by his disciples which you've said followers of Islam do not believe.
Where do you get the teachings of Jesus from if you don't use the New Testament?
How do you view the 12 apostles?
Is there a "Holy Spirit" in Islam? A spirit of God among us?
Do you believe that Christians and Jews are condemned to Hell if they do not convert to Islam and believe in the teaching of the Quran? God is the final judge of course, but what do you believe based on what you've been taught?


I'm sure I'll think of more :)


Okay I can answer number 1
This is a VERY GOOD question so I would just like to aplaud you on asking this.
Please allow me to explain this the right way so that you can not only understand but feel.
First of all Islam believes in many portions of both Judaism and Christianity. The reason for this is very simple- Judaism came first chronologically with Moses. The holy book for Jews was written. Then Christianity with Jesus. Christians of course now believe in Moses b/c he came before them. Then Mohammad (peace be upon him) came- and the Quran was revealed.
So with Judaism and Moses 1st, Christianity and Jesus 2nd, and Islam with Mohammad(pbuh) 3rd we can explain WHY Muslims believe in portions of the Bible (I capitalize The Bible not just b/c it is a proper noun but b/c it is a holy book and contains things Muslims believe in).
God made numerous attempts to reach man kind. After the flood with Noah, God decided to reach man kind through messangers. The first was Moses and the Torah was written. The second was Jesus and the Bible was written. So why was a third prophet required? B/c the Bible is written in over 200 literary styles so which one is ACTUALLY God? Well God didnt physically write it - man did. Man recorded the turn of events during the time of Jesus. His apostles recorded the events. Now we must ask as humans- what does every man have? - think of this not as the follower of ANY religion but as a member of the human race. I will tell you- Flaws, bias, opinions, perceptions, ideas, interpretations. we cannot as HUMANS escape this. Please do not think that I am paying ANY disrespect to your faith.
One main portion of the Bible we believe that had drifted from what truly occured - and by that facts we not transferred properly- is that Jesus is God.
Your question is not only a question to me about why we dont believe Jesus IS God but to me speaks why Islam is the final religion and that is b/c chronologically it IS the last religion. The last attempt by God to reach man-kind. So how is the Quran the TRUE word of God? Well we all know that God himself cannot write- something that creates the universe doesnt possess human characterists right? So there has to be a way that the Quran is REVEALED.
Mohammad (pbuh) was illeterate- he could read nor could he write- God wrote the Quran through him- Gabriel the angel came to Mohammad and say "read" and Mohammad (pbuh) said "I can't" and there his hand began to move as he wrote - God did truly write the whole book himself, Mohammad (pbuh) was just his vechicle and it was b/c he was illiterate that no one could say that he wrote the book not God.
That is why so much of the Bible is like the Torah and why soo much of the Koran is like the Bible and Torah. It was the final message - pure and untouched.

Another important note is that we must think about our questions and we will recieve our answers b/c God gave us minds.
If you think of a being who could create a universe man is not the image that comes to mind. How could man create the universe? How could he create us in such detail with our unique DNA and intricate details like molecules and atoms. Indeed no man I could fathom could create such a universe only a higher being with no other identity with no other name but one- GOD.
Jesus was a messager as Moses was a messanger, as Mohammad was one.

With all my heart I TRULY hope that that helped you.
:)

Why do you automatically believe he is lying? If someone believes what they are saying is true, but they are misinformed (I don’t know if he is or he isn't), is this considered a lie to you? If so, you better be damn careful because according to your previous post lying is a "greater sin".

I hope when that day come when you are faced with judgment, that you never repeated misinformation in your lifetime, b/c according to your logic, you will be going to hell... :reaper:

Sister- TO EACH HIS OWN.
When someone acts petty why dont you leave the judging to God. That is what he does in every religion- Judge! We undermine him everytime we judge someone- every time we gossip.
It is something that I am SURE we ALL have to answer for at one time or another- I ask you as a person and NOT as a member of a specific relgion: don't be judgemental even if it is of someone who is judging another- 2 wrongs dont make a right.

:hug:

From PM


We believe that god spoke directly to only 2 men (I will double check this tonight after work) - Moses and Muhammad. The rest were given signs through revelation, dreams, or powers (Jesus brought back the dead, etc)

We believe that if you ask for guidance from god he may guide you - but do not look for signs so quickly - or turn everything into a sign. We believe somewhat into the concept of "fate" - or that certain things may be pre-determined for some people - but who knows what is and what isn't. God responds in a multitude of ways to people - in dreams, fortune, misfortune, etc. People (lots of them people) claim god or something commanded them to do something, or had a dream or blah blah blah. I would say some of those stories may be true - but I feel most of them are false where people are looking to benifit themselves financially from their "visions"

With respect to direct communication - no. I feel this is how the Church controlls the power - claiming they have/had direct contact with the lord and requests had to be filtered through them. In Islam people who make such asserations should be discredited - as it seems that would mainly lead to a power grab.

Brother- I MUST correct you- NO men spoke DIRECTLY to God. They spoke through the angel Gabreil. I can find the qoutes if you need more proof.

Incorrect my friend - there are the extreme shiite - who say the angel Gabrial made a mistake and gave prophecy to the wrong person - and there are those who say that he was the rightful leader after the Prophet because he was "of the house". There are also Sufi, Durzi, Alloyite, etc etc.

About death again wrong. We are taught not to fear death (natural or whatever) because there is life after death. While it is on the day of judgement there is great fear and worrying - it is said those who are true believers (note in the Quran it uses the word "believers", not muslims) are content because they have given their lives to god, through charity, being good to neighbors/family, etc - and for them the day of judgement passes painlessly - while those who know they are in dispair are scared.

Just want to note that Islam frowns about building a heiarchy(sp) of muslims. we are ALL brothers and sisters.

Why do women have to cover themselves from head to toe in Muslim countries? I would think that with the ridiculous heat over there that it would be unbearable. I have always wondered that. Thanks.

Okay- no one should take this one but me! LOL! LOL! :lmao: I am an American Muslim WOMAN.
Okay- yes it is modesty but let me explain this one mainly with my American side! ;)
You want to find the person you are meant to be with right?? Like every woman in this country and on this Earth. What is the one thing we always complain, wish for, and talk about? A GUY WHO LIKES US FOR WHO WE ARE NOT OUR IMAGE- Amen! :woot:
How do you ensure that? You cover up. You keep the ones who want to talk to you for your body away and the ones who want you for you near.
Of course, finding a husband is not the only reason. So why do women cover up more than men? Well it is b/c of how God made us.
The nature of a man is a more permiscious one than that of most women. - Now when I say that I dont mean that men are pigs (LOL) I mean that it is OKAY for them to be that way and honestly we all know that they were created that way. So if men stare more at women than women stare at men does that make it the womens fault? No - they cover up more b/c they can prevent it and it is of course up to them if they want to or to what extent.
As an American Muslim it is hard to find cute things that are long enough or to wear long sleeve in the middle of summer. I will admit it is hard.
Let me paint a picture of myself for you- it is 90 degrees outside with way to much humidity and I am wearing a long sleeve Coldplay shirt and one of those Indian style Bohemian skirts that are in fashion now and are long to the floor- I am really hot and am sweating hard BUT I dont even think twice about wearing anything shorter or more open b/c I like what I am wearing. I dont do it b/c its what my parents tell me to do- I am 21 and in college and there isnt much they can say anymore. I do it b/c I understand why I do it - I believe why I do it is good for me.

Now my coldplay shirt and long Indian-boho skirt is what a berka is in Afghanistan- it is what they wear- it is "in." Most women will tell you they choose to wear it. Now, some of course dont and it is true that we tend to hear the ones that dont want to louder than those who do- I am not defending any womens ill treatment b/c I am quite the Muslim femminist but each country's women wears what accomidates to Islamic rules with their own traditions. Iranian muslims wear different clothes than Saudi Arabian Muslims and that is okay. :)
So why do we see some women in this country who are muslims covering everything but their eyes- b/c those women are wearing THEIR homelands traditional Islamic clothing.

I hope that helped. It is important to note that Muslim women can wear what they wish in front of other women and in front of their father, brothers, husband, and husband's father.

:hug:

Brother- I MUST correct you- NO men spoke DIRECTLY to God. They spoke through the angel Gabreil. I can find the qoutes if you need more proof.

sister there was one prophet, prophet musa "moses" it says so in the quran ;)

mashallah for all the answers your giving.

Thanks for doing this thread Mohater.

1). How do Muslims decide which parts of the Torah and Bible they will believe are true? (how much do they believe is true?)

2). Both the Jews and the Christians believe in a Messiah, do the Muslims expect one? Do they know who it will be or what he will do? If they don't why has this been passed over?

3). How do Muslims believe they "tip the scales" in their favor with Allah? How do they make sure they make it to heaven?

Thanks for doing this thread Mohater.

1). How do Muslims decide which parts of the Torah and Bible they will believe are true? (how much do they believe is true?)

2). Both the Jews and the Christians believe in a Messiah, do the Muslims expect one? Do they know who it will be or what he will do? If they don't why has this been passed over?

3). How do Muslims believe they "tip the scales" in their favor with Allah? How do they achieve redemption?


question 1: we believe that so much has changed that we dont know which is true and which is not, king james version...and so on.

but sometimes the shia use the prophet stories from your books to prove to the sunni that prophets inherit*spelling* from each other ;)

question 2: our messiah is Mohammad Mahdi(a,s,), but Isa (a,s,) will also be with him, the reason for isa (jesus) to be there is to be a proof that christianity and the other religions have changed.

question 3, I dont really know what you mean by tip the scales?

thank you

Thanks for doing this thread Mohater.

1). How do Muslims decide which parts of the Torah and Bible they will believe are true? (how much do they believe is true?)

The parts that agree with the Quran. Like the story of Haggar and Abraham's son in the desert, the miracle of Jesus speaking as a new born, the story of Moses crossing the Red Sea, following the good and forbidding the evil. We believe there was deviation after that messanger's time - (ie the Jews slightly defected after Moses - so then came Jesus - the Christians starting to defect after Jesus and made him more than he was - so then came Muhammad)

2). Both the Jews and the Christians believe in a Messiah, do the Muslims expect one? Do they know who it will be or what he will do? If they don't why has this been passed over?
Yes - we expect Jesus as the Messiah - since we believe he ascended to heaven and was not crucified. That is one of the signs last signs of the day of resurrection - Jesus will come back - fulfill the Prophecy by killing the anti-Christ, and then die since he has not yet died. There are other signs of that day - but that is one of the final ones (ie Gog and Magog, oceans drying up, etc)

3). How do Muslims believe they "tip the scales" in their favor with Allah? How do they make sure they make it to heaven?
We believe that we only are able to tip the scales with God's (Allah's) mercy. There is a story of a man who did nothing but good deeds his entire life. Questioned by God he was asked if he thought he should enter heaven with his good deeds or God's mercy - he said his deeds. When the scale was weighed against just the gift of sight - sight outweighed his deeds. He then said then it is only by your mercy any human shall enter Paradise.

Islam teaches more than anything - modesty and humbleness. We don't believe being Muslim alone will grant anyone access to Heaven, or that not "confessing" smaller sins will leave someone condemned. Life is a trial - to which God is testing man - will we succumb to the pleasures of this life, or will we abstain from that which the harmful effects outweight the positive - and hopefully be granted with Paradise in the afterlife.

Let me paint a picture of myself for you- it is 90 degrees outside with way to much humidity and I am wearing a long sleeve Coldplay shirt and one of those Indian style Bohemian skirts that are in fashion now and are long to the floor- I am really hot and am sweating hard BUT I dont even think twice about wearing anything shorter or more open b/c I like what I am wearing. I dont do it b/c its what my parents tell me to do- I am 21 and in college and there isnt much they can say anymore. I do it b/c I understand why I do it - I believe why I do it is good for me.
What if you go to the beach? Are you allowed to go swimming or do you have to get like a wet suit type bathing suit?

What about sports?

...we are judged NOT on what a religion sets as criteria but on the inner battle we face every day. ...It is OUR INTENTIONS and our intentions alone that will dictate our judgement.
...you are judged by your actions...

:worship: :worship:

mohater, thanks for this thread. It has cleared up a LOT of questions and misunderstandings.

Just because a man does not see a woman's body somewhat revealed by skimpy clothing does not guarantee that he wants her for who she "really is."

Also, what we look like tells other people a lot about who we are. We communicate our inners selves not only through words but through how we move and carry ourselves, our body language, physical gestures, etc., - even through our wrinkles.

Often that non-verbal communication is more honest than our words.

Just because a man does not see a woman's body somewhat revealed by skimpy clothing does not guarantee that he wants her for who she "really is."

Xnarg - you of all people should be able to figure out that nothing is guaranteed. These things are set as safeguards to protect society from itself. Yes there will be those who would chose not to follow it. People will seek what they feel IS best for THEM - we're still human



Also, what we look like tells people a lot about who we are. How we move and carry ourselves, our body language, etc., communicate our inner selves. Sometimes that non-verbal communication is more honest than our words.

Very true - but what others say about you creating a distorted image has nothing to actually do with how you look or how you carry yourself - but how someone has labeled you.

First off, thank you for taking the time to answer all of these questions and bring in a female perspective rhawk- I really appreciate it.

First of all Islam believes in many portions of both Judaism and Christianity. The reason for this is very simple- Judaism came first chronologically with Moses. The holy book for Jews was written. Then Christianity with Jesus. Christians of course now believe in Moses b/c he came before them. Then Mohammad (peace be upon him) came- and the Quran was revealed. So with Judaism and Moses 1st, Christianity and Jesus 2nd, and Islam with Mohammad(pbuh) 3rd we can explain WHY Muslims believe in portions of the Bible (I capitalize The Bible not just b/c it is a proper noun but b/c it is a holy book and contains things Muslims believe in).So what portions of Judaism and Christianity do you believe in? All of the old testament? Only the Torah? Parts of the New Testament? It doesn't sound like many Muslims have read much of the Bible- there is a wealth of knowledge there about their history that they are missing.

God made numerous attempts to reach man kind. After the flood with Noah, God decided to reach man kind through messangers. The first was Moses and the Torah was written. The second was Jesus and the Bible was written. So why was a third prophet required? B/c the Bible is written in over 200 literary styles so which one is ACTUALLY God? Well God didnt physically write it - man did. Man recorded the turn of events during the time of Jesus. His apostles recorded the events. Now we must ask as humans- what does every man have? - think of this not as the follower of ANY religion but as a member of the human race. I will tell you- Flaws, bias, opinions, perceptions, ideas, interpretations. we cannot as HUMANS escape this. Please do not think that I am paying ANY disrespect to your faith. I take no disrespect at all- it's actually one of my main areas of Biblical study right now- figuring out why the New Testament is considered the word of God when it was written by man. I have faith that the Old Testament is the word of God because it was confirmed to be by Jesus- but the Old Testament was written by man as well. Do you believe in any parts of the Torah/Old Testament (the Torah, I believe, is only the first 5 books of the Old Testament). Why does it matter that the New Testament is written in different literary styles? It was written by a lot of different people at different times and places- of course there will be different styles. Why can't they ALL be God's word? God doesn't have to have one literary style- all of the writers could have been God's tools through which he wrote. Like I said I'm studying this right now and I agree with you- man is flawed- so how could the Bible not be flawed? On the other side of the argument is if God is all-powerful and can do anything- who are we to question Him? Isn't he capable of writing his Word through human hosts? Isn't he capable of exerting his influence so that the correct books were grouped together to form the Bible?

One main portion of the Bible we believe that had drifted from what truly occured - and by that facts we not transferred properly- is that Jesus is God. Your question is not only a question to me about why we dont believe Jesus IS God but to me speaks why Islam is the final religion and that is b/c chronologically it IS the last religion. The last attempt by God to reach man-kind. Yet the apostles recorded that Jesus himself said that he was one with God. There is so much evidence throughout the Bible that points towards Jesus being divine- I can provide scripture upon scripture that shows Jesus had a relationship with God that no one else had, had knowledge of the future, allowed people to worship him (when he himself said we should worship only God), told people that he was the only way TO God, considered himself one with God, etc. Do Muslims consider these direct writings of the Apostles of Christ- the people who followed and learned from him for three years- to be complete ramblings?

So how is the Quran the TRUE word of God? Well we all know that God himself cannot write- something that creates the universe doesnt possess human characterists right? So there has to be a way that the Quran is REVEALED.
Mohammad (pbuh) was illeterate- he could read nor could he write- God wrote the Quran through him- Gabriel the angel came to Mohammad and say "read" and Mohammad (pbuh) said "I can't" and there his hand began to move as he wrote - God did truly write the whole book himself, Mohammad (pbuh) was just his vechicle and it was b/c he was illiterate that no one could say that he wrote the book not God.
That is why so much of the Bible is like the Torah and why soo much of the Koran is like the Bible and Torah. It was the final message - pure and untouched. God himself cannot write? There is nothing God cannot do- heck He could just drop books from Heaven if He wanted- but it's not his style as faith is such a crucial component to our relationship with Him. We will never be able to fully prove that God exists because it would displace faith(although I, like many, look around at the wonders of the world and ponder how anyone could believe God did not create everything). Here it sounds like God used Muhammad as a host to write the Quran- why couldn't have God done the same thing with the writers of the Bible? Why do you believe that He didn't?

Another important note is that we must think about our questions and we will recieve our answers b/c God gave us minds.
If you think of a being who could create a universe man is not the image that comes to mind. How could man create the universe? How could he create us in such detail with our unique DNA and intricate details like molecules and atoms. Indeed no man I could fathom could create such a universe only a higher being with no other identity with no other name but one- GOD.
Jesus was a messager as Moses was a messanger, as Mohammad was one. And here is where we will differ- I see God in all of us- I see his creativity, his intelligence, his drive to create wonderful things. We were all created in His image and it makes sense to me. Jesus was not just a messenger to me- he was God come down in the flesh to be the perfect offering for all the sins of mankind. How could anything flawed and imperfect that we offer ever pay for the sins we commit? Jesus was the only being ever to exist on this planet that was perfect- even though he was fully human and fully God. If I do not have faith that this man Jesus came to save me so that I could have a close relationship with God, then how can I ever? How can we ever come close to be in God's presense when we are so impure? Only by the blood of Jesus- he is my redeemer, my savior and my friend. I cannot think of him only as a messenger carrying God's word- for he sits at God's right hand and interceeds for us ceaselessly and cares about each of us like no human messenger can.

With all my heart I TRULY hope that that helped you. :) Sure did- thanks :) I hope you didn't take any of my ramblings as offensive- they are my beliefs and I am trying to be open so that we can better understand each other.

I have another question as well- I noticed that you (and others) interchange Koran and Quran as well as Mohammad and Muhammad- is there any reason for that?

In Islam:

1) How does one go to heaven (what does one have to do) - 5 pillars?
2) If most muslims don't believe in hierachies, why do clerics have so much power (at least in the ME)?
3) Why hasn't there been an extreme response to the way terrorists have been dragging the Islam's name throught the mud? I feel like the terrorists do much more damage to Islam than any Western Society ever! Why no Jihad's against them?

I have a few more questions, but I'll stop here for now

t doesn't sound like many Muslims have read much of the Bible- there is a wealth of knowledge there about their history that they are missing

I have read the whole Bible twice. You see if you want others to understand yuor religion it helps to understand what the person you are discussing with believes. I have read the Bible and when I have I see the similarities and the further clarification my book gives.
I read the book with an open heart b/c we cant be soo stubborn (not you in particular :) )- we have to be able to read another faiths book and not just blindly boast that our relgion is the best- we have to allow ourselves to either be moved or not moved by the words.

.....
I have another question as well- I noticed that you (and others) interchange Koran and Quran as well as Mohammad and Muhammad- is there any reason for that?

It doesn't really matter when you think about it - since we are phonetically translating words from Arabic to English - how they are spelled in Arabic is what matters. English you could spell it many ways - and have it sound the same.

In Islam:

1) How does one go to heaven (what does one have to do) - 5 pillars?

People are able to enter Paradise by - following God's orders (being "good"). In a nut shell that's it. The five pillars are 1- Proclaimation of Faith 2- Praying 3-Giving Chairty 4-Fasting 5- Doing the Pilgirmage. So you see there is many things left out here that people if they did not do would probably not enter heaven (being good to parents, neighbors, etc etc)

2) If most muslims don't believe in hierachies, why do clerics have so much power (at least in the ME)?
The "clerics" don't have much power except where people use their knowledge to exploit people. The people with the power are the dictators and their families. I may follow up on this later

3) Why hasn't there been an extreme response to the way terrorists have been dragging the Islam's name throught the mud? I feel like the terrorists do much more damage to Islam than any Western Society ever! Why no Jihad's against them?
There have been - just no one cares to cover it in the news. There are statments released, lectures held, conventions, etc - but the mainstream media doesn't cover it. They are busy covering the wackos who are doing those things. Those "terrorists" don't associate with the public - they look for small groups to approach - where they can stay low and go unwatched. They may go to a certain Mosque - but don't associate with the masses there - just a small group of people that they may try to sway to their cause.

And here is where we will differ- I see God in all of us- I see his creativity, his intelligence, his drive to create wonderful things. We were all created in His image and it makes sense to me. Jesus was not just a messenger to me- he was God come down in the flesh to be the perfect offering for all the sins of mankind. How could anything flawed and imperfect that we offer ever pay for the sins we commit? Jesus was the only being ever to exist on this planet that was perfect- even though he was fully human and fully God. If I do not have faith that this man Jesus came to save me so that I could have a close relationship with God, then how can I ever? How can we ever come close to be in God's presense when we are so impure? Only by the blood of Jesus- he is my redeemer, my savior and my friend. I cannot think of him only as a messenger carrying God's word- for he sits at God's right hand and interceeds for us ceaselessly and cares about each of us like no human messenger can.



Let me just answer some of this first- we too see Gods work in everything around us and in each other that is why we say "MashAllah" which means God has blessed you.
But in your own words you are painting 2 seperate pictures so I would like to ask a question of you- Of course this with all the due respect to someone who is engaging in this dialoge to being with :woot: -
Which one is God, you mentionthat Jesus is God, then that Jesus sits at the right hand of God. If Jesus is half God havi human than he is a demiGod and Christianity is therefore polytheism (not that there is anything wrong with it- I just think it should be called what it is).
This isnt a bad thing- look at Buddahism- the basic belief is that their is one higher being and he has a few spirits who assist him.
So Christians believe in what? I ask b/c I dont put words in peoples mouths so I'd like to know which one is God.

In addition we didnt believe that any relationship between God and people had to be forged (like through the Jesus that Christians belive is the son). The reason God even accepts prayer from us who are sooo impure(just as you said) is because he is the MOST merciful being. The most generous. He doesnt have to but he does b/c he is God.

In Islam we dont believe you are saved either. Why b/c you wouldnt have the 10 commandments if you were saved- you must work for your good deeds, you are weighed on your goods vs your bads by the most just being and you are not exempt because you are a certain faith.
We know that God cannot create anything evil only free will which yields the oppurtunity for bad doings- so if one is truly "saved" it is b/c they were either born into a christian family or a convert- right?
But what about children born in Tibet? God put them into that family and they have a 99% chance of becoming a Buddhist- so does that mean they are not saved?? Would God intentionally put them in a position to NOT be saved.
God created ALL of us with an equal oppurtunity to reach him. No one people have leverage over the other.

I think if you try with your heart and not your mind you will see many similarities and many good things in Islam

Do Muslims consider these direct writings of the Apostles of Christ- the people who followed and learned from him for three years- to be complete ramblings?



Of course always with you Captal I'm going to make sure that you dont think I'm dirsrepecting your faith. :hug:

Ramplings is a harsh word. :) Okay so we believe that all we need to know is what is in the Quran (Koran- its all about how you transliterate Arabic to English). The Quran does say that you should respect the people of the book (Chrisitans). But for us I am sorry to disappoint but we really believe that what God put in the Quran is the true religion. By God revealing the direct word of God through Mohammad (pbuh) we can rely on what we belive to be a more accurate source of the prophets lives through the direct source- not the Apostles. Okay- so you believe that Jesus was part God so the apostles were recording the word of God. But you are leavin out 1 person- the Apostles themselves could have misinterpreted, etc. They are the ones who wrote. Muhammad (pbuh) was illerate and could not infiltrate any of his opinions into the word even if he wanted to.

Also, what we look like tells other people a lot about who we are. We communicate our inners selves not only through words but through how we move and carry ourselves, our body language, physical gestures, etc., - even through our wrinkles.

Often that non-verbal communication is more honest than our words.

Yes - but that non verbal communication can ALL take place while wearing covered up clothes. The way we carry ourselves is an important part of who we are and we can carry ourselves as we wish wearing what ever we need to.
:)

What if you go to the beach? Are you allowed to go swimming or do you have to get like a wet suit type bathing suit?

What about sports?

Okay- I dont really go to the beach (GASP!) - LOL- its true. When I go, I go with my pants rolled up just enough that they dont get soaking wet and I usually go when it is empty.- which is how I like it anyway b/c I have some tranquility.

Sports - okay- in high school I was a point guard on the basketball team for a year before I couldnt play anymore b/c of injury.
I pretty much wore their warm up pants and the regular jersey everyone wore but with one of the long sleeve micro fiber shirts that breathe well underneath. It was not that bad but the looks and rumors I got were. remeber, as long as we are human beings when we have a will we will find a way- I wanted to play ball so I wore what was Islamically ok and lost a few friends. Actually- I think its fair to say that they were never friends to begin with. :P

Please let me know if you have ANY more questions. :hug:

Which one is God, you mentionthat Jesus is God, then that Jesus sits at the right hand of God. If Jesus is half God havi human than he is a demiGod and Christianity is therefore polytheism (not that there is anything wrong with it- I just think it should be called what it is).
This isnt a bad thing- look at Buddahism- the basic belief is that their is one higher being and he has a few spirits who assist him.
So Christians believe in what? I ask b/c I dont put words in peoples mouths so I'd like to know which one is God.This is a question I get often- basically how can Christianity be a monotheistic religion when there are three distinct entities- God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Christians believe that these three beings are all one in the same- Jesus was not half God half human- he was fully God and fully human. Then you could ask the question if Jesus was fully human- who was reigning in Heaven for his time on Earth? God was (and is, and always will be) because although Jesus was God coming to Earth in a human body, God in Heaven still existed. Explaining the Trinity is very complicated and I'm sorry I'm doing a poor job- I wish I could remember a better analogy. Basically God is composed of three distinct parts- God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit- but they are all part of who God is. I think we will never fully comprehend that relationship while we're here on Earth.

In addition we didnt believe that any relationship between God and people had to be forged (like through the Jesus that Christians belive is the son). The reason God even accepts prayer from us who are sooo impure(just as you said) is because he is the MOST merciful being. The most generous. He doesnt have to but he does b/c he is God.Christians believe that it was his mercy and grace that caused Him to send Jesus to die for us- so that we could be closer to Him.

In Islam we dont believe you are saved either. Why b/c you wouldnt have the 10 commandments if you were saved- you must work for your good deeds, you are weighed on your goods vs your bads by the most just being and you are not exempt because you are a certain faith.
We know that God cannot create anything evil only free will which yields the oppurtunity for bad doings- so if one is truly "saved" it is b/c they were either born into a christian family or a convert- right? This is definitely a big difference betweeen Christianity and Islam then. Actually I have to step back a little because Catholics have similar beliefs to this- that we need good deeds in order to enter Heaven. Protestants (a major branch of Christianity) believe that it is through our faith in Jesus that we are saved and that our good works follow that faith but are not why we are saved. We believe that because we could never do enough good deeds in order to enter Heaven- it is only by God's grace- affirmed through our faith- that we are allowed into Heaven. You are not "saved" by being a Christian, being born into a Christian family or converting to Christianity. You are saved by faith alone- faith that Christ came and died for you personally.

But what about children born in Tibet? God put them into that family and they have a 99% chance of becoming a Buddhist- so does that mean they are not saved?? Would God intentionally put them in a position to NOT be saved.
God created ALL of us with an equal oppurtunity to reach him. No one people have leverage over the other.

I think if you try with your heart and not your mind you will see many similarities and many good things in Islam Which is why Christians are always trying to reach people and send out missionaries- we want everyone to hear the good news about Jesus Christ and the importance of a relationship with God. If people never hear the news of Jesus then I think God will judge them on another standard- in the end, like you've mentioned, it is God that is the judge. We can only go off of what he has given us in scripture- the rest is up to Him.

I do see many good things in the Islam, Jewish and Christian religions- and part of me thinks that all of those people- and perhaps people of other religions- have the opportunity to enter Heaven and have a close relationship with God. But on the other hand I think of this scenario- what if God came down to Earth and told everyone how they should live their lives and what they needed to spend eternity with Him, but then the people didn't listen? Should they still go to Heaven? That's what I think Jesus was- it was God coming down to Earth to tell us how we should live and how to spend eternity with Him- and then we choose to follow what He said or not.

...... But on the other hand I think of this scenario- what if God came down to Earth and told everyone how they should live their lives and what they needed to spend eternity with Him, but then the people didn't listen? Should they still go to Heaven? That's what I think Jesus was- it was God coming down to Earth to tell us how we should live and how to spend eternity with Him- and then we choose to follow what He said or not.

Ah my young padawan, but what if he didn't?
This very issue is discussed in the Quran about how after Jesus left - his people turned him into more than what he was.

Here is one part where it is in the Quran to address this very issue

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.072

People are able to enter Paradise by - following God's orders (being "good"). In a nut shell that's it. The five pillars are 1- Proclaimation of Faith 2- Praying 3-Giving Chairty 4-Fasting 5- Doing the Pilgirmage. So you see there is many things left out here that people if they did not do would probably not enter heaven (being good to parents, neighbors, etc etc)


What if you are good but never bother doing the pilgrimage because it is just too far?


The "clerics" don't have much power except where people use their knowledge to exploit people. The people with the power are the dictators and their families. I may follow up on this later


I don't know if I believe this. In Iraq, people follow what Sistani says regardless of the dictator. I think he has a lot of power.


There have been - just no one cares to cover it in the news. There are statments released, lectures held, conventions, etc - but the mainstream media doesn't cover it. They are busy covering the wackos who are doing those things. Those "terrorists" don't associate with the public - they look for small groups to approach - where they can stay low and go unwatched. They may go to a certain Mosque - but don't associate with the masses there - just a small group of people that they may try to sway to their cause.

Again, I'm not sure if I totally buy in to this (although I am sure that this bias does occur). my original question was "why hasn't there been an extreme response". Statements released, lectures, conventions are NOT extreme. Most statements/lectures/conventions I have seen are about Muslim awareness in that not all Muslims believe in terrorism. This type of statements aren't directed to the terrorists, but rather the American public. "Don't attack/hate me, I do not believe in terrorism" which I can see as being necessary.

I see articles of suicide bombers parents saying they are proud. Aren't Muslim's mad at the suicide bombers for dragging their religion through the mud? How can society permit a proud parent for their kid killing a bunch of people? I feel like the only answer is that the majority of people in that Muslim society agree with the intention enough that they are willing to overlook the means (notice I am not saying they actively support terrorism). Just my take on it. I am interested in hearing your take since you are muslim.

What if you are good but never bother doing the pilgrimage because it is just too far?
Well that's up to God to judge - the criteria for the going to the pligrimage is that you are physcially and financially able to. After that there is no real excuse.



I don't know if I believe this. In Iraq, people follow what Sistani says regardless of the dictator. I think he has a lot of power.

People look to him for guideance - as he is a learned man. While Saddam was there did Sistani do much - no because had the monger over him. Now the people turn to him - and it does not seem he uses it to only benifit himself - he told his people to vote, to try and bring about peace in his country.
People who support Bush unconditionally don't even care what he says - it's truth to them - and even when it comes false (Saddam helped with 9/11) they still believe it. It's the same thing there.



Again, I'm not sure if I totally buy in to this (although I am sure that this bias does occur). my original question was "why hasn't there been an extreme response". Statements released, lectures, conventions are NOT extreme. Most statements/lectures/conventions I have seen are about Muslim awareness in that not all Muslims believe in terrorism. This type of statements aren't directed to the terrorists, but rather the American public. "Don't attack/hate me, I do not believe in terrorism" which I can see as being necessary.
What do you want for a response? Ignorant people are busy committing hate crimes on innocent Muslims - but that doesn't get any attention - and no cry of foul there. A mosque in IN was burned to the ground - what did they have to do with anything? Muslims don't have a chance to come together to do these things - you are asking for us to come to step D while we are stuck at step A. How do you expect us to stop those people? I am in the USA, a US citizen - born and raised - the ones who commit there atrocities are not here - do I have some red phone I just pick up and it connects me - the terror hotline? We do nothing to improve our (the USA) image in the countries that breed these hardliners - and then expect the people of the US to implement the change. You're asking to make edible bread with mud and water.


I see articles of suicide bombers parents saying they are proud. Aren't Muslim's mad at the suicide bombers for dragging their religion through the mud? How can society permit a proud parent for their kid killing a bunch of people? I feel like the only answer is that the majority of people in that Muslim society agree with the intention enough that they are willing to overlook the means (notice I am not saying they actively support terrorism). Just my take on it. I am interested in hearing your take since you are muslim.
Are you not mad at GW for dragging us through things (or any crooked politican for that matter) Or mad at your neighbor for letting his dog shat on your lawn? People make their own decisions and here people tie their religion to it. What do you do to that parent, take them to jail? They committed no crime - you can't change what's in their heart by force. Would you take Israeli's approach - go destory the house of the family of the suicide bomber and put them all out on the streets for that person's action? We are attacking people without looking at their views. The issue here is those who attack us (the USA) or inspire people to attack us take examples from our mistakes - yes we're not perfect - but no we're not trying to avoid making huge mistakes - and then these hardliners use it for their fuel. We're trying to put out the fire with gas, and then blaming the person who gave you the gas to put it out with.

What if you are good but never bother doing the pilgrimage because it is just too far?

.

Okay- Pillars are just that -pillars: a foundation thats all. Yes they are imporant but the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said that you are judged by the intentions of your actions. This applies to every religion and all rules are incorporated in this concept including the 5 pillars.

Okay- so what happens if you are poor and cant make your haj (pilgrimage). God knows your intentions- that you wanted to but were poor or ill, too old to make the trip, or other roadblocks that Muslims face. What matters is does your soul and heart yern to go- as it says throughout the entire Koran, God is most merciful and understanding- he knows all you conceal and all you disclose.
You are just judged on your intentions.
What about another pillar- fasting.
My sister has a bleeding ulcer and she is not allowed to fast. No-not prohibited by her doctor- prohibited by God. Why? B/c even though God says that you should fast he also says that you cannot harm yourself in the name of God: suicide bombing is one extreme but fasting with a bleeding ulcer is also one. What matters is that she cries sometimes during Ramadam b/c she cant- she wants too and God knows that.
What about praying 5 times a day-
We all have sooo much going on especially if you are a student or working. Can you just pray at work- maybe if you really want to but you cant pray somewhere that isnt clean so I myslef often mis a mid-day prayer when I am at school. That doesnt mean I am going to hell - God know that I feel bad missing it and when I get home I make it up. God understands us well that is why he gives us the blessing of asking for forgiveness, doing a makeup prayer or simply asking him to help us.

Another pillar- Zagat (Zakat to some)- charity. This is important but God also says that you cannot help others until you help yourself. By that I dont mean that you should purchase a boat (LOL) it means that if you barely have enough money to feed your children or pay rent so you have somewhere to live you cannot ive zagat. When and if you are in a better position you can make it up.

Bottom line- Human beings always face hurdles with faith; some you should conquer and some you can ask for Gods assistance with. You are judged soley on your intentions- the pillars are your spiritual fondation what you can fall back on to keep yourself on the strait path.
I hope that helped

Just curious:

To mohater, redhawk, or IranWarrior: Why over the last 30 years or so has the number of extremist Muslims been on the rise? Is it not true that even though there are millions of good Muslims (like you perhaps), that the religion is easily perverted? I mean, there are violent groups that have thousands and thousands of members. How do they so easily use Islam to justify the violence? Why do they use Islam to justify the violence? Why don't they just kill people instead of using a religion to justify it and in the meantime painting a bad picture of Muslims as a whole? Why don't they see that they are making it more difficult for Muslims around the world to live in countries that are not primarily Muslim? If they consider you their brothers and sisters, then why do they continue to harm the people they say they are trying to protect?

This is a serious question. I am in no way trying to disrespect Islam. I'm simply conveying the feelings that many people like me get from it. This is possibly due to the fact that I don't have regular interaction with good Muslims. As I said, these killers are painting a bad picture of Muslims as a whole. People like you have to live with this. It's not my fault. It's their fault. But, people like me get blamed for it.

Just curious:

To mohater, redhawk, or IranWarrior: Why over the last 30 years or so has the number of extremist Muslims been on the rise? Is it not true that even though there are millions of good Muslims (like you perhaps), that the religion is easily perverted? I mean, there are violent groups that have thousands and thousands of members. How do they so easily use Islam to justify the violence? Why do they use Islam to justify the violence? Why don't they just kill people instead of using a religion to justify it and in the meantime painting a bad picture of Muslims as a whole? Why don't they see that they are making it more difficult for Muslims around the world to live in countries that are not primarily Muslim? If they consider you their brothers and sisters, then why do they continue to harm the people they say they are trying to protect?

This is a serious question. I am in no way trying to disrespect Islam. I'm simply conveying the feelings that many people like me get from it. This is possibly due to the fact that I don't have regular interaction with good Muslims. As I said, these killers are painting a bad picture of Muslims as a whole. People like you have to live with this. It's not my fault. It's their fault. But, people like me get blamed for it.
Because Mav - it seems like Islam is under attack. Look at the major right wing Bush supporters - Falwell, Graham, Pipes - they do nothing but paint the WORST picture of Islam and attack Muslims in general, and no one admonishes them. Name once when you heard someone on Foxnews defend Islam, or even CNN or any news agency that relies on advertising for its revenue. Then the second anyone speaks out against the USA's actions or Israel - people are up in arms, it's on the news that so and so said this, and blah blah blah - as if they are perfect and unable to make mistakes.
To them there are defending Islam (in their own psychotic way - and it's almost all wrong yes) - and their supporters think they are defending Islam as well. How they justify killing innocents or kids - I couldn't answer and don't think anyone can. Look how the US has taken influence in some area's - and then used it power sometimes in the wrong way. We unconditionally defend Israel regardless of what happened, and then unconditionally accuse the Syrians or the Palis with no evidence. Or we back the "free" elections in Afganistan and look over the Northern Alliances old ties with warlords and the opium trade. Think how this looks to them

Again, I'm not sure if I totally buy in to this (although I am sure that this bias does occur). my original question was "why hasn't there been an extreme response". Statements released, lectures, conventions are NOT extreme. Most statements/lectures/conventions I have seen are about Muslim awareness in that not all Muslims believe in terrorism. This type of statements aren't directed to the terrorists, but rather the American public. "Don't attack/hate me, I do not believe in terrorism" which I can see as being necessary.

I see articles of suicide bombers parents saying they are proud. Aren't Muslim's mad at the suicide bombers for dragging their religion through the mud? How can society permit a proud parent for their kid killing a bunch of people? I feel like the only answer is that the majority of people in that Muslim society agree with the intention enough that they are willing to overlook the means (notice I am not saying they actively support terrorism). Just my take on it. I am interested in hearing your take since you are muslim.


I can give you one reason- FEAR. Muslims are also afraid of extremists. Extremists are CRAZY people- how can I be so sure: look at the 9-11 suicide bombers- they went to a strip club the night before the attack. A strip club??!!! A Muslim in a strip club- I still havent been able to wrap my brain around that one. This is against Islam big time. But then again they enforce that women should cover up. So you see the contradiction and so do Muslims.
Just like there are some extremists who go to strip clubs and are therefore not religious, there are some who rape, who torture, and kill even another Muslim b/c they are crazy. People live in fear and cannot always speak out.

Another reason is that a lot of the Muslim countries are war torn right now and cant even unite nationally let alone all of them uniting to denouce this.
Afghanistan, Palestine, Iraq, and more are facing other issues like rebuilding, freedom, riots, looting and more. They must first be allowed time to pull themselves together and then expect them to speak out.

I am an American Muslim and I can tell you this- since 9-11 my life has been hell. I now not only hate Osma Bin Laden like every other American but MORE b/c he has messed up my harmony in life and he has set this country back 10 years on being open towards Muslims by causing such pain and instilling fear.

Speaking out is also easier said than done- when I do it in a college class I am critized, I am yelled at, I am asked to pick a side- it raises my blood pressure b/c I cant get through to an angry mob BUT I still care sooo much of how they view Islam. I dont want to say "screw you" I want to say "I'll show you the Islam I know and love"

As much as people have to be brave to speak out people have to be brave to listen- really listen, not just ask "why do you hate us?" or use a cliche like "our way of life" You have to be able to speak with your own heart and not use someone else's phrase.

It has been hard for me as a girl- people ask me if I feel like a second class citizen- I dont. I see second class citizen all around me with girls in those micro mini skirts that are flared so when the lightest breeze comes everything shows. I see second class citizen when girls allow themselves to be called a "B" and act like they deserved it or apologize for being one.

I hope that cleared things up for you
:)

Just curious:

Is it not true that even though there are millions of good Muslims (like you perhaps), that the religion is easily perverted?

Christianity is too but in a subtle way- being a homosexual is on the way become an acceptable lifestyle choice but it is condemmed in the Bible.

Having sexual relations prior to marriage is also something that is implied as unexceptable but I dont know ANYONE that is not a Muslim who hasnt had them.

Abortion is another we can talk about- sure people debate whether or not we should do it BUT as far as religion it is NOT acceptable

Of course I dont mean this in any disrepectful way but in my entire life I have only known a dozen good christians- this is what you may see with Islam.
It is the way the world is now not the way a belief is.

Violence in Islam is not acceptable so why do you see it? B/c the state of affairs in middle eastern countries is a poor state- war, dictatorship, famine, etc.
The US is not- if it was you would see more christians rising up. I promise you and like I said this is NOT b/c you are a Christian, Muslim, or Jew it is because the world has changed and it has gotten harder to be a GOOD person of any faith as a citizen of it.

I don't really have a question for mohater but just wanted to share a site with you guys, since the threat seems to be about Islam and whatnot.

If you've heard of this site don't bite my slickdeal head off. (http://maniacmuslim.com/)

Here's a direct link to articles (http://maniacmuslim.com/Articles.html)

Because Mav - it seems like Islam is under attack. Look at the major right wing Bush supporters - Falwell, Graham, Pipes - they do nothing but paint the WORST picture of Islam and attack Muslims in general, and no one admonishes them. Name once when you heard someone on Foxnews defend Islam, or even CNN or any news agency that relies on advertising for its revenue. Then the second anyone speaks out against the USA's actions or Israel - people are up in arms, it's on the news that so and so said this, and blah blah blah - as if they are perfect and unable to make mistakes.
To them there are defending Islam (in their own psychotic way - and it's almost all wrong yes) - and their supporters think they are defending Islam as well. How they justify killing innocents or kids - I couldn't answer and don't think anyone can. Look how the US has taken influence in some area's - and then used it power sometimes in the wrong way. We unconditionally defend Israel regardless of what happened, and then unconditionally accuse the Syrians or the Palis with no evidence. Or we back the "free" elections in Afganistan and look over the Northern Alliances old ties with warlords and the opium trade. Think how this looks to them

Thanks for answering.

But, one of my biggest questions is: Why is it so easily and so often perverted? I know that Christianity is used for violent acts as well. But, do you agree that the majority of terrorist acts in the world are performed by these so called Muslims? Why is Islam so easliy used to justify violence when it is meant to be a religion of peace, love, and tolerance? How do they do this and gain so much support around the world? I mean, I have never been one to hate someone before I meet them. But, all this makes me wonder when I see a Muslim what they are thinking. I feel guilty for that. I should actually be automatically assuming they are nothing but as peaceful as me. But, I admit that it makes people think more. That should not be.

I don't really have a question for mohater but just wanted to share a site with you guys, since the threat seems to be about Islam and whatnot.

If you've heard of this site don't bite my slickdeal head off. (http://maniacmuslim.com/)

Here's a direct link to articles (http://maniacmuslim.com/Articles.html)

This is kinda weird. Look- religion is religion and it doesnt need to be cool it just needs to be what we believe in.
I love my faith cool or not and I can vouch that a few Christians think their faith is beautiful and think its silly when people try to make it seem "cool"

Thanks for answering.

But, one of my biggest questions is: Why is it so easily and so often perverted? I know that Christianity is used for violent acts as well. But, do you agree that the majority of terrorist acts in the world are performed by these so called Muslims? Why is Islam so easliy used to justify violence when it is meant to be a religion of peace, love, and tolerance? How do they do this and gain so much support around the world? I mean, I have never been one to hate someone before I meet them. But, all this makes me wonder when I see a Muslim what they are thinking. I feel guilty for that. I should actually be automatically assuming they are nothing but as peaceful as me. But, I admit that it makes people think more. That should not be.

Maybe today many are - but you can't just take a snapshot of 50 years and extreploate it for all time. Keep that in mind....

I'm guessing here - because I do not know for sure - but it would seem they use the same verses in the Quran that the people like Graham and Pipes use when they attack Islam - taking them out of context to show that they need to "fight where ever they find them". So I'm guessing those who they use are probably ignorant on their own religion - thus they eat it up and go out to fight.

Christianity is too but in a subtle way- being a homosexual is on the way become an acceptable lifestyle choice but it is condemmed in the Bible.

Having sexual relations prior to marriage is also something that is implied as unexceptable but I dont know ANYONE that is not a Muslim who hasnt had them.

Abortion is another we can talk about- sure people debate whether or not we should do it BUT as far as religion it is NOT acceptable

Of course I dont mean this in any disrepectful way but in my entire life I have only known a dozen good christians- this is what you may see with Islam.
It is the way the world is now not the way a belief is.

Violence in Islam is not acceptable so why do you see it? B/c the state of affairs in middle eastern countries is a poor state- war, dictatorship, famine, etc.
The US is not- if it was you would see more christians rising up. I promise you and like I said this is NOT b/c you are a Christian, Muslim, or Jew it is because the world has changed and it has gotten harder to be a GOOD person of any faith as a citizen of it.

I agree with pretty much all of what you said here. Funny how you assume I'm Christian. :lmao:

You may find you like people like me. A true Christian as well as most anyone who is deeply involved in a religion is very one sided and lacks an open mind. I'm agnostic. I don't claim whether or not there is a God. This is because there has never been any proof either way. I don't believe something just because someone tells me to believe it. I believe this is what gives me an open mind. I believe that organized religion has been the bane of societies since the beginning of time. And yes, I have had plenty of experience with religion. I graduated from a Methodist college too.

I don't really have a question for mohater but just wanted to share a site with you guys, since the threat seems to be about Islam and whatnot.

If you've heard of this site don't bite my slickdeal head off. (http://maniacmuslim.com/)

Here's a direct link to articles (http://maniacmuslim.com/Articles.html)

This site is commonly know as "entertainment" and they have lots of "jokes" that Muslims laugh at -
most non-muslims wouldn't get most of the humor there

A true Christian as well as most anyone who is deeply involved in a religion is very one sided and lacks an open mind.

I get my prayer on 5 times a day and without even meeting anyone you know I can promise you that I am one of the most open minded people you'll meet.
And not one of those fake, self-proclaimed "open-minded" people - you know the kind I'm talking about.
I love literally every culture and every religion. And I believe we can all come up with things we love from others that we couldnt imagine.
TRUE faith is using your mind.
God gave you 3 things- a mind, heart, soul. He wants you to use ALL- that means ASK QUESTIONS. My mom always told me "even angels ask" and I believe that. Relgion REQUIRES our participation- not just memorize and belief but rationalize and discuss.

I get why you want proof- I have many friends like you since I am a chemistry major/math minor. Proof can come to your mind, heart or soul. Science is what I live by but I believe that God created science so we could not only help ourselves and better society but see what a intricate world he created.

So I am not close minded and I wont say I'm religious b/c I think that is a compliment and anyone who truly believes wont wear a badge announcing they do.

This site is commonly know as "entertainment" and they have lots of "jokes" that Muslims laugh at -
most non-muslims wouldn't get most of the humor there

I guess I'm old school. :lmao: If you want to really here what a Muslim thinks listen to some music from Sami Yusif- he is a British Muslim who sings in mixed Arabic and English.
I dont really care for the way some make up religious music- guess thats my american side b/c I think its usually lame and doesnt speak to me or just doesnt sound good. But Sami Yusif is REALLY GOOD.

A true Christian as well as most anyone who is deeply involved in a religion is very one sided and lacks an open mind. Awww don't judge us all Mav! I consider myself a "true Christian" and I think there are several people on this site who would say that I'm open minded and that I try to look at multiple sides to a situation.

TRUE faith is using your mind.
God gave you 3 things- a mind, heart, soul. He wants you to use ALL- that means ASK QUESTIONS. My mom always told me "even angels ask" and I believe that. Relgion REQUIRES our participation- not just memorize and belief but rationalize and discuss.

I get why you want proof- I have many friends like you since I am a chemistry major/math minor. Proof can come to your mind, heart or soul. Science is what I live by but I believe that God created science so we could not only help ourselves and better society but see what a intricate world he created. Beautifully put! :woot:

Ah my young padawan, but what if he didn't?
This very issue is discussed in the Quran about how after Jesus left - his people turned him into more than what he was.

Here is one part where it is in the Quran to address this very issue

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.072

From the site you provided:

005.075
The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

Huh? That's completely unclear to me- because Mary and Jesus both had to eat Jesus could not have been divine? I disagree- in order for Jesus to live a perfect life and be a perfect sacrifice he had to be human and experience what we experience.

What about this?

005.046
And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

It makes a reference to the Gospel- commonly held to be the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John- what does the reference mean here?

Awww don't judge us all Mav! I consider myself a "true Christian" and I think there are several people on this site who would say that I'm open minded and that I try to look at multiple sides to a situation.

I just said "most anyone". I purposely did not say "all" because I don't believe all Christians are closed minded.

From the site you provided:

005.075
The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!


Huh? That's completely unclear to me- because Mary and Jesus both had to eat Jesus could not have been divine? I disagree- in order for Jesus to live a perfect life and be a perfect sacrifice he had to be human and experience what we experience.


That's saying the he was human - nothing more than flesh and blood like those who were divinly inspired before him (Noah, Moses, Isaac, etc) - that he was not God.


What about this?

005.046
And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

It makes a reference to the Gospel- commonly held to be the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John- what does the reference mean here?

Don't quote me here - I will need to look this up to be sure. What I take from it is that Jesus was sent as a continuation of a previous message (here Moses) - to guide the people to the stright path.

*EDIT - don't forget though - you can't really take one verse and take too much meaning from it - you usually have to look around at the other verses and see what else was being said. The same goes for the Bible or Torrah.

rhark137 is driving me crazy. I wanna get her to slip outta her Burqa (scarf) IMMEDIATELY :lol: Darling, yer mind is a treasure. I get the picture the Islamic equivalence of stripping to your underthings in Western Culture is removing the head gear and slipping into a comfortable pair of cargo shorts to the knees and a blousy shirt with short sleeves. As a child of the 50's & 60's, this is so far from MY understanding of modesty as to be almost incomprehensible, but I can understand the motivations. Thank you!

Also, from your description os the WAY Muslims believe things, it seems they would be most favorable to forming Unions or joining them. Are Unions held in a favorable light by Muslims?
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mohater:
My next question surrounds the divisions of Bahá'í from Islam. My fraternal aunt is very active in the Bahá'í faith. (She's been trying to convert me for years. :lol: ) She has served in some capacity for many years. Each member of the family has gone on Pilgrimage & to The Mount and served their two years of duty to the faith. I find this strangely like Mormans. She is not Arabic, her husband is Italian, she is Swiss. The entire family is pretty good about following the tenents. My couzin was 29 when she married, is very pretty, and was a virgin, her husband, another pure Italian, was as well.

(The North American Bahá'í House of Worship is one of the most beautiful buildings I have ever seen in the entire world, it is located 2 hours from me in Wilmette, IL)

A nice explanation of the Bahá'í Faith (http://hometown.aol.com/gracewatcher/bahai.html)Bahá'ís believe that there is only one God who is the source of all creation.
God is transcendent and unknowable. However, He has sent, and will continue to send, great prophets to humanity, through which the Holy Spirit has revealed the "Word of God." The Great Manifestations of God up to this time have been:

Adam (? BCE)
Abraham (? BCE)
Moses (1456 BCE)
Krishna (1249 BCE)
Zoroaster (1000 BCE)
Buddha (757 BCE)
Jesus Christ (34 CE)
Mohammed (613 CE)
The Bab (1844 CE)
Baha'u'llah (1863 CE)

> (Dates shown are common estimates from historical and Christian sources; BCE dates are very approximate) A new prophet is not expected for many centuries. My question is this:
a) Given that the Muslims of the Bab's day executed him as a heretic and dangerous to Islam, and;
b) given that many believe Bahá'í to be a unique and individual religion similar to Isalm the way Islam is similar to Cristianity, but arising as a totally NEW religion entirely, and;
c) given that the Bahá'í claim more prophets to come;

Why do you claim it to be a sect of Islam and how is it viewed by each of the 3 great houses of Islam?

Next question:
Levity here, no answer required... Have you called TDS metrocom and asked if they have a "Red "Terrorists are Us" Hotline Phone" model available for an added fee? :lol:

Next and final question today:
If good acts and the Mercy of Allah are required to enter heaven, but it matters not if you are Jew, Christian, or Muslim, then does it not follow that the man who carries NO RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION, in fact, may not even BELIEVE in Allah/GOd/Yehway or any other Supreme Deity has every bit of a chance of entering heaven, if he lives a good life, as any of the others who ARE professing religious affiliations? An aethiest who steadfastly refuses to believe in whatever name is assigned, but does good because he believes in the essential goodness and duty of humanity is perfectly acceptable as anyone who believes. Is this not true in the tenets of Islam? Or is belief a requirement?

Final note of the day:
rhawk137:
From what I could see on the Maniac Muslim site, the fella was making a pretty good stab at lightening up what is almost taboo, discussing Muslim foibles and strange contradictions of faith and practice. You make pains to not make snap judgements & warn us not to, as a good Muslim should, yet you assumed Mavtech was Christian, because he is American. He & I are BOTH agnostic, his a little different than mine. You are influenced by the world you live in, and we are as well. I point this out to highlight how easy it is to inadvertantly judge. I fight the impulse every day, but am never successful.

If, each day we rise, look around and realize how special the ordinary is precisely BECAUSE it is so dang ordinary and runs so effortless, and make this promise to ourselves, (I have faced death. I do it EVERY morning, it is MY "prayer", I say it quietly aloud under my breath and my wife laffs at me sometimes for doing it. She used to think it was silly, but since she came to near death from kidney failure, she now says it occasionally with me),

"I awake today having defeated death one more time.
I will NOT take anything I see for granted as it may be the last time I see it.
I will not turn away knowledge today as it may be the last knowledge I acquire.
I will seek to refrain from making judgements on others because it may be the last judgement I make and irreversible.
I will seek to serve my fellow man because it may be the last time I am allowed to do so.
I will seek to amend any offense I may have given immediately as I may never have a later opportunity to do so."

I say these things but believe in no Supreme Power, yet I am not an aetheist who absolutely denies the POSSIBILITY of a Supreme Power, reject all religions, and believe man is responsible for the deeds he does. I have no desire or belief in Heaven, a soul, the afterlife, or salvation... and no idea why my life would be any better there than here if all these people are headed there anyway, experience has taught me to believe in one thing, the likelyhood of a person proclaiming to be a "good" (insert brand of religion here) decreases the louder they proclaim their "goodness".

Xnarg - you of all people should be able to figure out that nothing is guaranteed. These things are set as safeguards to protect society from itself. Yes there will be those who would chose not to follow it. People will seek what they feel IS best for THEM - we're still human




Very true - but what others say about you creating a distorted image has nothing to actually do with how you look or how you carry yourself - but how someone has labeled you.It's a lot easier to see through a distorted image when that distorted image is not also veiled.

rhark137 is driving me crazy. I wanna get her to slip outta her Burqa (scarf) IMMEDIATELY :lol: Darling, yer mind is a treasure. I get the picture the Islamic equivalence of stripping to your underthings in Western Culture is removing the head gear and slipping into a comfortable pair of cargo shorts to the knees and a blousy shirt with short sleeves. As a child of the 50's & 60's, this is so far from MY understanding of modesty as to be almost incomprehensible, but I can understand the motivations. Thank you!



Final note of the day:
rhawk137:
You make pains to not make snap judgements & warn us not to, as a good Muslim should, yet you assumed Mavtech was Christian, because he is American. He & I are BOTH agnostic, his a little different than mine. You are influenced by the world you live in, and we are as well. I point this out to highlight how easy it is to inadvertantly judge. I fight the impulse every day, but am never successful.





REALLY I'm judgemental????!!! I never said that Mavtech was Christian! I was saying how Christianity could be preservesed too- why did I speak of Christianity? Because it is the most wide spread faith in this Country - that is why.

And why do you want me out of my "berka"? You really sound like a TRUE BIGOT!!!!
If you dont agree with my faith than Fine- dont criticize it! Who are you to criticize anothers beliefs? huh?
EVERYONE on this forum has been just WONDERFUL with how they ask questions- what is the hostility for? Where is your agression coming from? Why are you sick of me?
Why do you call me judgemental when YOU ARE THE ONE JUDGING!!- YOU ASSUMED I WEAR A SCARF- I DONT WEAR A SCARF AND YOU ARE A BIGOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND I AM AMERICAN- NO NOT BY BEING BORN HERE- MY BLOOD, MY GENES!
SHAME ON YOU.
Why dont you leave this space for people who want to ask questions not criticize.

Also, from your description os the WAY Muslims believe things, it seems they would be most favorable to forming Unions or joining them. Are Unions held in a favorable light by Muslims?
Technically in Islam - a union is not necessary because of the rules that involve having employees. When you eat, they eat, when you rest (unless for some reason the place can run without you) they rest. It's all about being just. Should people need to assemble because their rights are being taken - then yes in Islam there is no problem with Unions

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mohater:
My next question surrounds the divisions of Bahá'í from Islam. My fraternal aunt is very active in the Bahá'í faith. (She's been trying to convert me for years. :lol: ) She has served in some capacity for many years. Each member of the family has gone on Pilgrimage & to The Mount and served their two years of duty to the faith. I find this strangely like Mormans. She is not Arabic, her husband is Italian, she is Swiss. The entire family is pretty good about following the tenents. My couzin was 29 when she married, is very pretty, and was a virgin, her husband, another pure Italian, was as well.

(The North American Bahá'í House of Worship is one of the most beautiful buildings I have ever seen in the entire world, it is located 2 hours from me in Wilmette, IL)

A nice explanation of the Bahá'í Faith (http://hometown.aol.com/gracewatcher/bahai.html)My question is this:
a) Given that the Muslims of the Bab's day executed him as a heretic and dangerous to Islam, and;
b) given that many believe Bahá'í to be a unique and individual religion similar to Isalm the way Islam is similar to Cristianity, but arising as a totally NEW religion entirely, and;
c) given that the Bahá'í claim more prophets to come;

Why do you claim it to be a sect of Islam and how is it viewed by each of the 3 great houses of Islam?
They claim it to be sect - personally I feel they do a great many things that contradict Islam (as do Ismalis) but all you can do is tell them what you think - give them your proof and then they are on their own. Bahai is based off of Islam - but then they got some idea somewhere - they didn't get a new book (so not like Judaism to Christianity to Islam) and they really didn't bring a new message - so that logic I find flawed. Once I found out of the transfer of Prophet thing I decided to stop reading into it - that was enough for me.

Next question:
Levity here, no answer required... Have you called TDS metrocom and asked if they have a "Red "Terrorists are Us" Hotline Phone" model available for an added fee? :lol:

Next and final question today:
If good acts and the Mercy of Allah are required to enter heaven, but it matters not if you are Jew, Christian, or Muslim, then does it not follow that the man who carries NO RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION, in fact, may not even BELIEVE in Allah/GOd/Yehway or any other Supreme Deity has every bit of a chance of entering heaven, if he lives a good life, as any of the others who ARE professing religious affiliations? An aethiest who steadfastly refuses to believe in whatever name is assigned, but does good because he believes in the essential goodness and duty of humanity is perfectly acceptable as anyone who believes. Is this not true in the tenets of Islam? Or is belief a requirement?


TDS has yet to return my call.
In Islam - we believe that those who are searching for the truth will find it. I have had many a great debates with people on religion and have found that when people want to discuss religion with you - it means discuss their religion and convert you. I have spoken to many Jews on their faith, and many Christians - and even gone to Chritsian events just to see what it was like. I found most of them very closed minded and unaccepting of those who were not like them. They were very nice people - just unwilling to enagage in a deabte over their religion. I used to watch the Church channels on sunday morning to see what it was like to attend mass - listen to the message the preacher was conveying. Even with all that soul searching - I found myself more and more connected to Islam.

Belief is a requirement in Islam - yes. To say who goes where in the afterlife - in Islam we are actually forbidden to tell someone they are going somewhere as if we were sure of it. We can say 'well this crime is said to condemn someone to hell' - but stop there because no one is in a position to actually judge someone.

REALLY I'm judgemental????!!! I never said that Mavtech was Christian! I was saying how Christianity could be preservesed too- why did I speak of Christianity? Because it is the most wide spread faith in this Country - that is why.

Whoa!! Settle down a bit. No harm done about me. I was just messing with you a bit about me being Christian. It's pretty normal for anyone to assume that anyway based on my questions. It's actually been nice to ask a few dedicated Muslims about their faith without them getting all ticked off. Let's keep it that way. Not all the posts are going to be to your liking.

It's a lot easier to see through a distorted image when that distorted image is not also veiled.

Really? So if someone distorts your image - you should give up part of your identity to allow people to "see" through it? That seems really shallow Xnarg

I see less "distortion" in an open minded person in a scarf over a close minded person who is willing to expose more skin to the public. The open minded person is willing to break down the walls of steroytypes and misconceptions - while the close minded person is not.

Fearing the unknown is ok - fearing what you refuse to accept/understand is wrong espiaclly if resources exist to overcome that fear.

Whoa!! Settle down a bit. No harm done about me. I was just messing with you a bit about me being Christian. It's pretty normal for anyone to assume that anyway based on my questions. It's actually been nice to ask a few dedicated Muslims about their faith without them getting all ticked off. Let's keep it that way. Not all the posts are going to be to your liking.

I have nothing against you nor the person who wrote that post- You know I can relate to you as I said in other post :hug: You are sweet and I got your tease.

Dont deny the rudeness of the last post - telling me to take off my berka is wrong and assuming that I wear a scarf and telling me your sick or annoyed with me or whatever he/she said is rude.
I assumed no one was Christian b/c they are american - I'm american so that assumption is kinda silly

Your cool in my mind- I am just tired of people treating me like a woman that needs to be liberated. Its frustrating- leave me be.

REALLY I'm judgemental????!!! I never said that Mavtech was Christian! I was saying how Christianity could be preservesed too- why did I speak of Christianity? Because it is the most wide spread faith in this Country - that is why.

And why do you want me out of my "berka"? You really sound like a TRUE BIGOT!!!!
If you dont agree with my faith than Fine- dont criticize it! Who are you to criticize anothers beliefs? huh?
EVERYONE on this forum has been just WONDERFUL with how they ask questions- what is the hostility for? Where is your agression coming from? Why are you sick of me?
Why do you call me judgemental when YOU ARE THE ONE JUDGING!!- YOU ASSUMED I WEAR A SCARF- I DONT WEAR A SCARF AND YOU ARE A BIGOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND I AM AMERICAN- NO NOT BY BEING BORN HERE- MY BLOOD, MY GENES!
SHAME ON YOU.
Why dont you leave this space for people who want to ask questions not criticize.
Oh dear, rhawk137, please calm down and re-read my post as it was meant, with the laffing smiley evident, It was very lighthearted. I am so sorry you mistook my comments for critisizm instead of levity. I not once, even in the comment about assumptions, critisized you or your faith in any way whatsoever. In fact, I THOUGHT I was paying you homage for your explanations and service in helping us understand Islam....I said this is NOT b/c you are a Christian, Muslim, or Jew.......I agree with pretty much all of what you said here. Funny how you assume I'm Christian. :lmao: ....As you can see, I am not the ONLY one who read your statement as "assuming" Christianity on the part of Mavtech, he too thought you had. My comment was in the way of making a point about the fallability of us all, no matter how pure our motives. Please continue as though we had not had this miscommunication and rid yourself of the "assumption" that I, in any way, disapprove of, am adverse to, or find your beliefs untenable. Since I subscribe to no religion but rather a set of moral values that I determined for myself to be just and proper, and because in my youth I studied Comparative Religion for 2 years as a possible vocational choice, I believe I can say with sincerity, that SHOULD I chose to follow a particular religion, I would most LIKELY chose either Islam or Bahá'í, it is not in MY nature to follow on faith alone, I seek PROOF. I have PROOF that my values produce good results, that is why I continue to practice them.

mohater has made this mistake in judgement about me once as well, I clarified my statements and he now understands I simply intend to understand, not critisize or ascribe values to anyone. Sometimes I fail, but I try my best. I believe he and I understand one another better for the misunderstanding and that is good, perhaps we shall as well.

I think, if you look over every single one of my questions, you will find, not the BIGOT, you claim, but one who is open-minded and questing in the extreme. I have NEVER "pushed" MY religion, I have none to push. Since I have no agenda, how can I possiblly disapprove of or refuse to listen to someone who HAS information about a subject I ask for it on? In this exchange we have witnessed the heart of why Americans and Muslims from Arabic countries do not understand each other, misinterpretations based on perception. Next time, please ASK me if I intended any insult before lighting me up like a 4th of July rocket if you could.Now my coldplay shirt and long Indian-boho skirt is what a berka is in Afghanistan- it is what they wear- it is "in." Most women will tell you they choose to wear it.rhark137 is driving me crazy. I wanna get her to slip outta her Burqa (scarf) IMMEDIATELY :lol: Darling, yer mind is a treasure. I get the picture the Islamic equivalence of stripping to your underthings in Western Culture is removing the head gear and slipping into a comfortable pair of cargo shorts to the knees and a blousy shirt with short sleeves. As a child of the 50's & 60's, this is so far from MY understanding of modesty as to be almost incomprehensible, but I can understand the motivations. Thank you!This is where I sort of got the notion you might occasionally wear a scarf or hair covering. Do you never wear one? IF you read that quote, with a preformed idea it is going to be bigoted and demeaning to you, well, I certainly did not mean it that way. I believe if you re-read it NOW, in light of what I have explained, you MIGHT slap my face for being a little forward perhaps, but to ascribe BIGOTRY?? to my statements? Nothing could be further from the truth as my folllowing sentence explains how MY definitions of modesty would differ from yours under Islam. The blue and orange highlighted parts being an "ANALOGY". For me to make a joke about your garments is perhaps mildly loaded with innuendo, but was never meant to be disrespectful, nor was it intended as a staement about you "needing liberation", THAT thought NEVER even crossed my mind.. It is sad that sex and attraction is so uncomfortably touchy of a subject that you cannot enjoy some levity about the subject at your own expense, which, I believe, was the whole point of that Maniac Muslim guy's web site. (And here is where the "attraction" part comes in), In America, joking about sex, without actually meaning to "hit on" or demean anyone is a great source of amusement for many, and improves the attraction between co-equals. If a Muslim woman wishes to attract a man and wants that attraction to be based on her being, her "mind", her personality, then you have succeded with your intelligent posts of explanation. I felt a mild attraction to a woman who demonstrated intelligence. If Islam is so strict as to forbid the enjoyment of sexually charged banter for the sake of humour, that is a revelation to me and makes me sad as well. For my heart was pure and Islam looks at the intent as well as the deed, if I understand correctly. I believe the world needs MORE laughter, not less.

I hope, in my own humble way, to wish you good health,
In the name of Allah the Beneficent the Merciful, "Allah Beli"
(Gees, I hope I didn't slaughter that one too badly)

Oh dear, rhawk137, please calm down and re-read my post as it was meant, with the laffing smiley evident, It was very lighthearted. I am so sorry you mistook my comments for critisizm instead of levity. I not once, even in the comment about assumptions, critisized you or your faith in any way whatsoever. In fact, I THOUGHT I was paying you homage for your explanations and service in helping us understand Islam.As you can see, I am not the ONLY one who read your statement as "assuming" Christianity on the part of Mavtech, he too thought you had. My comment was in the way of making a point about the fallability of us all, no matter how pure our motives. Please continue as though we had not had this miscommunication and rid yourself of the "assumption" that I, in any way, disapprove of, am adverse to, or find your beliefs untenable. Since I subscribe to no religion but rather a set of moral values that I determined for myself to be just and proper, and because in my youth I studied Comparative Religion for 2 years as a possible vocational choice, I believe I can say with sincerity, that SHOULD I chose to follow a particular religion, I would most LIKELY chose either Islam or Bahá'í, it is not in MY nature to follow on faith alone, I seek PROOF. I have PROOF that my values produce good results, that is why I continue to practice them.

mohater has made this mistake in judgement about me once as well, I clarified my statements and he now understands I simply intend to understand, not critisize or ascribe values to anyone. Sometimes I fail, but I try my best. I believe he and I understand one another better for the misunderstanding and that is good, perhaps we shall as well.

I think, if you look over every single one of my questions, you will find, not the BIGOT, you claim, but one who is open-minded and questing in the extreme. I have NEVER "pushed" MY religion, I have none to push. Since I have no agenda, how can I possiblly disapprove of or refuse to listen to someone who HAS information about a subject I ask for it on? In this exchange we have witnessed the heart of why Americans and Muslims from Arabic countries do not understand each other, misinterpretations based on perception. Next time, please ASK me if I intended any insult before lighting me up like a 4th of July rocket if you could.This is where I sort of got the notion you might occasionally wear a scarf or hair covering. Do you never wear one? IF you read that quote, with a preformed idea it is going to be bigoted and demeaning to you, well, I certainly did not mean it that way. I believe if you re-read it NOW, in light of what I have explained, you MIGHT slap my face for being a little forward perhaps, but to ascribe BIGOTRY?? to my statements? Nothing could be further from the truth as my folllowing sentence explains how MY definitions of modesty would differ from yours under Islam. The blue and orange highlighted parts being an "ANALOGY". For me to make a joke about your garments is perhaps mildly loaded with innuendo, but was never meant to be disrespectful, nor was it intended as a staement about you "needing liberation", THAT thought NEVER even crossed my mind.. It is sad that sex and attraction is so uncomfortably touchy of a subject that you cannot enjoy some levity about the subject at your own expense, which, I believe, was the whole point of that Maniac Muslim guy's web site. (And here is where the "attraction" part comes in), In America, joking about sex, without actually meaning to "hit on" or demean anyone is a great source of amusement for many, and improves the attraction between co-equals. If a Muslim woman wishes to attract a man and wants that attraction to be based on her being, her "mind", her personality, then you have succeded with your intelligent posts of explanation. I felt a mild attraction to a woman who demonstrated intelligence. If Islam is so strict as to forbid the enjoyment of sexually charged banter for the sake of humour, that is a revelation to me and makes me sad as well. For my heart was pure and Islam looks at the intent as well as the deed, if I understand correctly. I believe the world needs MORE laughter, not less.

I hope, in my own humble way, to wish you good health,
In the name of Allah the Beneficent the Merciful, "Allah Beli"
(Gees, I hope I didn't slaughter that one too badly)

I read your last post a couple times before thinking you making a bigoted comment. I was confused. As a muslim you are forced to always talk about your sex life even more than other faiths b/c people always inquire and are curious. I dont want to turn them down or say nothing becuase they might think I dont even know the answer. In Islam sex is not bad- just sinfull before marriage. All my life people have been telling me to pretty much take my clothes off when I in reality I dress like any other American and have actually been complimented on my style. - its only when people find out that I'm Muslim and they pick on my clothes.
I do not always cover my hair- I do for prayer and I do to go to religious functions or places but I lost that luxury when the skin heads in Idaho harrassed my family- we were the only Muslim in the county and my mom feared for us so none wore the scarf. I value the scarf but I know that not nearly half of the people who like to talk about Islam with me would even find me approachable if I did wear it.

I didnt mean to assume the worst I guess I was totally confused by your statements- you said I was driving you crazy and other things about berkas etc that I didnt get- and I wasnt criticizing the site I was saying that for someone who's 21 I guess I'm old school cuz I dont get some of the Arab-targeted jokes. If was suppossed to be funny.

I am very sensitive about my faith. People are always looking at with me with pity like I need to be liberated or something. I am happy with who I am- most girls I know cant say that- I get that confidence from Islam and that should show you something about the faith.
Yes I do dress conservatively- I wear long sleeve, etc but I am by no means "out of it"

I am just confused on wear you stand- you dont have to pick a side (I hate it when people ask you to do that) I just want to know what you think.
I guess sarcasm is hard to interpret via text but as I mentioned in another post- I dont have any problem with you I just want to find my voice like any other woman and stand up for the things I value- and yes my faith in God is one of them

Peace be upon you- you might want to be careful saying things like berkas, etc to someone you dont know at first- BOTH sides need to be open-minded and sensitive.

Even in my message where I was upset I never called you any names or attacked you personally. That is what I ask you in return. Just respect.

God be with you and let you find your footing in what ever faith you choose. A believer is a believer no matter what religion or just spiritual. God looks upon us all as children....

Isn't there a saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"? To me that basic human response to decisions contradicts the belief that 'living a good life' or 'good intentions' get you to heaven.

Also in understanding the evolving history of religion, we are all served well to remember the history of other major religions. For example, the Inquisition, torture and murder of heretics, use of Christianity to justify imperialism, the massacres in India, the emperor-worship of Japan, using the Bible to justify slavery, etc.

Just because violence is carried out in the name of religion does not an evil religion make. :)

Now for a question: How do muslims view involvement in government, running for office, and military service?

-WhyBother?

I read your last post a couple times before thinking you making a bigoted comment. I was confused. As a muslim you are forced to always talk about your sex life even more than other faiths b/c people always inquire and are curious. I dont want to turn them down or say nothing becuase they might think I dont even know the answer. In Islam sex is not bad- just sinfull before marriage. All my life people have been telling me to pretty much take my clothes off when I in reality I dress like any other American and have actually been complimented on my style. - its only when people find out that I'm Muslim and they pick on my clothes.
I do not always cover my hair- I do for prayer and I do to go to religious functions or places but I lost that luxury when the skin heads in Idaho harrassed my family- we were the only Muslim in the county and my mom feared for us so none wore the scarf. I value the scarf but I know that not nearly half of the people who like to talk about Islam with me would even find me approachable if I did wear it.Believe it or not, I MORE than understood all that without you having to explain it. I am a fair student of human psychology. I understood your anger. I could have gotten indignant right back but what would that solve? That is why I took the time to address your comments, in furtherance of understanding. Your defensiveness over the persecution you have suffered in good ol' redneck country doesn't surprise me at all. Montana & Idaho are not noted for being some of our more progressive and forward thinking states. Again, I invite you to look at any and all of my questions. I take great care in my posts and I believe my person is expressed quite clearly in the way I ask, and the way I comment. I looked over the Maniac Muslim's site for a while, I "get it". I see why and what the man is doing. I think it is both healthy and informative to see yourself as others see you. That young man seems to handle that chore very well, with humour and insightfulness.I didnt mean to assume the worst I guess I was totally confused by your statements- you said I was driving you crazy and other things about berkas etc that I didnt get- and I wasnt criticizing the site I was saying that for someone who's 21 I guess I'm old school cuz I dont get some of the Arab-targeted jokes. If was suppossed to be funny.This is WHY it is always important to reflect BEFORE lashing out in quick response to perceived offense. Many times the person is just ineptly stating something that COULD have been said better upon reflection. Could I have made my post MORE intelligible as to it's intended humour? I suppose, but humour relies on timing and word play. Making the assumption Americans understand American English, one has to rely on the context words bring & hope a joke IS a joke. In the future, if you should have questions about my intent, simply "assume" I was trying to make someone laugh, (my little joke about the TDS Metrocom "Red "Terrorists are US" Hotline Phone, mohater understood it was a joke and made one back. Perhaps because we have a new understanding as a result of a previous MIS-understanding). It is my #1 goal in life, even and ESPECIALLY in political and religious discussions, to inject humour whenever possible. We all get too serious all too often. It is my DUTY to make others laugh when ever I can. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. It's why I keep my day job :lmao:I am very sensitive about my faith. People are always looking at with me with pity like I need to be liberated or something. I am happy with who I am- most girls I know cant say that- I get that confidence from Islam and that should show you something about the faith.
Yes I do dress conservatively- I wear long sleeve, etc but I am by no means "out of it"

I am just confused on wear you stand- you dont have to pick a side (I hate it when people ask you to do that) I just want to know what you think.
I guess sarcasm is hard to interpret via text but as I mentioned in another post- I dont have any problem with you I just want to find my voice like any other woman and stand up for the things I value- and yes my faith in God is one of themHmmm, I guess I didn't really state where I stand, although my specific non-religious "prayer", (that word has it's own connotations doesn't it?), sums it up nicely....for me.

"I awake today having defeated death one more time.
I will NOT take anything I see for granted as it may be the last time I see it.
I will not turn away knowledge today as it may be the last knowledge I acquire.
I will seek to refrain from making judgements on others because it may be the last judgement I make and irreversible.
I will seek to serve my fellow man because it may be the last time I am allowed to do so.
I will seek to amend any offense I may have given immediately as I may never have a later opportunity to do so."Peace be upon you- you might want to be careful saying things like berkas, etc to someone you dont know at first- BOTH sides need to be open-minded and sensitive.

Even in my message where I was upset I never called you any names or attacked you personally. That is what I ask you in return. Just respect.Respect is yours to lose not gain. I respect every person at first... until they show themselves unworthy of respect. I ask you, do not my actions here, show that I am a man who lives by principle? I sought to amend a percieved offense as soon as possible. I sought wisdom and rejected none even though some of it was couched in anger. I may NOT be humble, I have never subscribed to that particular tenent of Islam :lol: but neither am I unkind or insensitive, unless inadvertantly so.... unless someone REALLY deserves it. I am as human as you, I have just learned to be very careful about taking offense at the things people say in text because SO MUCH MEANING is lost without human interactions and body language. I try to use colors and case and smileys to convey emotions and levels of emphasis. I had hoped I did a better job, but see there is always room for improvement. You have taught me that today and I thank you for the reminder.God be with you and let you find your footing in what ever faith you choose. A believer is a believer no matter what religion or just spiritual. God looks upon us all as children....As a man of faith, faith in myself and the essential goodness in all of us, I thank you for those kind words. While I cannot bring myself to worship, I live life as best I can. I find it ironic that Religions have some of the same beliefs that I do as a non-believer.

As an incorrigible rascal though.... (here comes a JOKE)....
now, about getting you drunk and slipping you out of that Berqa........... :lust: (runzzzzzzzzz away before you can slap me) :lmao: :lol: :P

Isn't there a saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"? To me that basic human response to decisions contradicts the belief that 'living a good life' or 'good intentions' get you to heaven.

That's one of those quotes you don't take at face value. If your friend says he s**t faced - you don't tell him to go wash his face because that's just nasty. Here this says while people may think they are doing something with good intentions - but the action that follows may actually be bad (ie the leader of Iran issuing the order to kill Rushdie. His intention to defend Islam - good, his action based on that intention = bad).

I use that statment a lot - it's very powerful and true. People use the excuse of good intentions sometimes when they do bad things.




Also in understanding the evolving history of religion, we are all served well to remember the history of other major religions. For example, the Inquisition, torture and murder of heretics, use of Christianity to justify imperialism, the massacres in India, the emperor-worship of Japan, using the Bible to justify slavery, etc.

Just because violence is carried out in the name of religion does not an evil religion make. :)

Now for a question: How do muslims view involvement in government, running for office, and military service?

-WhyBother?
You have to have a government - Islam opposes dictatorships, monarchs, or any for of one group having unilateral power. People can run for office - you have to have municipal governments especially when dealing with large cities

Military is a requirment - to defend a people. It is pretty much a volunteer army -

An interesting point here is that if you have parents that are living - there is more blessing in taking care of your parents than going to fight in Islam.

This question is very vague and open ended. Please be more specific if you follow up

........As a man of faith, faith in myself and the essential goodness in all of us, I thank you for those kind words. While I cannot bring myself to worship, I live life as best I can. I find it ironic that Religions have some of the same beliefs that I do as a non-believer.


That's the bridge that I've seen bring people to Islam - while I have met many a good people who didn't align themselves to religion, many times I've found that they have expierenced some bad things in life (bad relationships with the other gender, alcoholism, doing things for the wrong reasons) without moderation who then find solace in the concept of "essential goodness" - to live to better themselves and those around them.

Islam comes in when you have these urges to succumb to these desires and says "oh hell naw - oh no you dint!!!"....

wait no that was a joke - Islam just teachs if something negative aspects outweigh its positive - then avoid it - it's better for you to avoid such things for it may lead down a dark and twisted road(alcohol, gambling, etc)...

As an incorrigible rascal though.... (here comes a JOKE)....
now, about getting you drunk and slipping you out of that Berqa........... :lust: (runzzzzzzzzz away before you can slap me) :lmao: :lol: :P


Ok I understand where you stand but as a LADY I'm still slapping you for that one! Still not funny. Cant change what people get offended by.
If you changed the word berka to "dress" every girl I have every known in my life would slap you too.

Saying things that are offensive (no not sensitive) to others is not my definition of granting them respect until they loose it.

Yes now I understand some of what you meant throughout your text but the berka was a lewd way to make a point. Its not about being open-minded or close-minded - ANY man of principle I know wouldnt make that kind of joke to a woman he has just met. Not funny
In additon you keep refrencing Mohater- yes, we are both Muslim but that is all we have in common, just like you have your antagonistic beliefs in common with other antagonists until you get to know who they are that is ALL you have in common. He is also a man so I dont see the parallel you keep refrencing.

I think it is strange for you to not apologive for your inappropriate comment and instead say I lashed out and still at the very end of your speach about assuming that it was a joke you come back and say the same lewd joke again.
You should treat a woman with a little more respect and not tell someone uou dont know that they are assuming the wrong thing when you speak of getting you drunk and slipping you out of your berkal

Stop. I am asking you to stop. I am a lady and your joke may have won over with the guys but not me so you must stop the defaming joke. Phsycoanalyze me if you wish this is who I am- I too and studying phsycology since I am a phsycology/chemistry major and math minor.
You were out of line.
Chill out about the site- I was just making chit chat about it to the person who posted it- if I think its weird let me think its weird- that doesnt mean that I dont think Islam has room for comedy - just b/c someone doesnt like dave chapell doesnt mean they dont enjoy humor.
I have NO problems with anything else youve said but cut the explicit jokes out- I have honor and I dont appreciate them. By the way Muslims are not supposed to drink.

Peace by upon you

Why are Muslims not allowed to drink alcohol?

Also,

Do you never ever eat a Bacon, Egg, and Cheese Sandwhich?

Why are Muslims not allowed to drink alcohol?

Also,

Do you never ever eat a Bacon, Egg, and Cheese Sandwhich?

Muslims are not allowed to drink alcohol for 2 main reasons:
1. It is bad for you- liver, pancreas, etc
2. B/c when you drink you are not aware of your own actions and that leads you to doing things or saying things that you will regret.
Even saying something mean to someone when you are drunk is a lower-end example of this.

No, I have never had a bacon, egg, and cheese sandwhich before- I usually eat the the number 9 fish sandwhich at McDonalds or the BK Fish at Burger King! :lol:

I have never had either.
On a seperate note I have seen that people sometimes feel bad for you b/c they love bacon, or ham during the holidays, or even just enjoy their sausage at breakfast. They feel bad for me b/c they know they would miss it. But we havent ever had it so we dont miss it.- You know what I mean? :look:

I hope that answered your question

Muslims are not allowed to drink alcohol for 2 main reasons:
1. It is bad for you- liver, pancreas, etc
2. B/c when you drink you are not aware of your own actions and that leads you to doing things or saying things that you will regret.
Even saying something mean to someone when you are drunk is a lower-end example of this.

1) This is one of my questions from earlier about Islam not changing at all with the times. It is scientifically and clinically proven that 1-2 servings of alcohol per day is beneficial to your health. Did you know that? Why does it seem that Islam doesn't adapt to these discoveries?

2) I'm just talking about a casual drink. Not getting drunk. I have a beer after work sometimes. Not to get drunk. But, because I like the taste of beer.

No, I have never had a bacon, egg, and cheese sandwhich before- I usually eat the the number 9 fish sandwhich at McDonalds or the BK Fish at Burger King! :lol:

I have never had either.
On a seperate note I have seen that people sometimes feel bad for you b/c they love bacon, or ham during the holidays, or even just enjoy their sausage at breakfast. They feel bad for me b/c they know they would miss it. But we havent ever had it so we dont miss it.- You know what I mean? :look:

I hope that answered your question

Bacon, egg, and cheese Bagel is my favorite breakfast item. I can understand why Bacon is evil. I can eat a whole darn pound of it in one sitting it tastes so good. So good I say it's evil. And it goes straight to my ass. :lmao:

1) This is one of my questions from earlier about Islam not changing at all with the times. It is scientifically and clinically proven that 1-2 servings of alcohol per day is beneficial to your health. Did you know that? Why does it seem that Islam doesn't adapt to these discoveries?

2) I'm just talking about a casual drink. Not getting drunk. I have a beer after work sometimes. Not to get drunk. But, because I like the taste of beer.



Bacon, egg, and cheese Bagel is my favorite breakfast item. I can understand why Bacon is evil. I can eat a whole darn pound of it in one sitting it tastes so good. So good I say it's evil. And it goes straight to my ass. :lmao:

First of all- :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: That is funny!

It is hard for someone to know whattheir limits are- often you have to go beyond your limits to define them (like accidently get drunk and then know next time to limit it to # of beers).
You dont have to get drunk to let alcohol alter your behavior.

Yes some scientists say the a glass of red wine is good a day. But it isnt going to save your life and (going to joke here...) since we dont eat all that bacon I think we are already healthier! LOL! I'm joking- dont mean to offend anyone. :lmao: :lmao:

If something is saving your life you have to do it BUT I would hardly put a glass of red wine a day to increase the circulation of red blood cells and liver enzyme production a do or die- so you see what I mean. :)

let me know if you have anymore!

1) This is one of my questions from earlier about Islam not changing at all with the times. It is scientifically and clinically proven that 1-2 servings of alcohol per day is beneficial to your health. Did you know that? Why does it seem that Islam doesn't adapt to these discoveries?

2) I'm just talking about a casual drink. Not getting drunk. I have a beer after work sometimes. Not to get drunk. But, because I like the taste of beer.



Bacon, egg, and cheese Bagel is my favorite breakfast item. I can understand why Bacon is evil. I can eat a whole darn pound of it in one sitting it tastes so good. So good I say it's evil. And it goes straight to my ass. :lmao:


:lmao: :lmao:

There are some people that say alchohol is allowed enough that your not drunk

which I dont follow.

bro mav, if its OK to drink, why does wisconsin say you have to have 0.00 to be on road ;)

ma salama

No, I have never had a bacon, egg, and cheese sandwhich before- I usually eat the the number 9 fish sandwhich at McDonalds or the BK Fish at Burger King! :lol:




I hope I dont burst your bubble sister but,

did you know that the cheese used in Mcdonalds and BK fish have Whey in it?

and the whey has something from the 4th stomack of the cow ;)

without saying bismillah unless your in iran or someplace lol

there is a whole list of stuffs you can or cant eat.

I was at a quran session, and I should it to them, now they are all like, NOOO no more mac and cheese, no more ice cream "the vinilla they but in the ice cream also has 35 percent alchohol O-O"

number 1 tip, dont eat 2 packages of ice cream and drive :lmao: :lmao:
ill find the website if ya need it ;)

now, about getting you drunk and slipping you out of that Berqa........... :lust: (runzzzzzzzzz away before you can slap me) :lmao: :lol: :P

Comon Anonymouse - that's down right insulting, vulgar and even harassing to aim such comments at anyone (Muslim or not). I find it offensive when guys - even in groups of guys - make such comments.

People who are able to make such loose comments finding them funny I feel shows how we have degraded as a society and turned women into objects instead of humans. You see it as an opportunity of a trophey of sorts - that can be cast away at any time and easily replaced.

In SE Asia giving someone a clock as a gift is a sign of death - when crossing cultural and religious lines be wary of what you say/do - you never know who you're going to greatly offend.

Why are Muslims not allowed to drink alcohol?

You are correct Mav - a little alcohol can be benifical for one's health - but in Islam - when something's negative aspects outweigh the positive - then you avoid it all togather. Another example is gambling - a little never hurt anyone - but can lead to excessive gambling - thus it is forbidden as well.



Also,

Do you never ever eat a Bacon, Egg, and Cheese Sandwhich?

Yes never had regular bacon. I have HOWEVER had lots of turkey bacon and beef bacon, as well as turkey and beef sasuage links.

At fast food places - I just get the egg and cheese.

Comon Anonymouse - that's down right insulting, vulgar and even harassing to aim such comments at anyone (Muslim or not). I find it offensive when guys - even in groups of guys - make such comments.

People who are able to make such loose comments finding them funny I feel shows how we have degraded as a society and turned women into objects instead of humans. You see it as an opportunity of a trophey of sorts - that can be cast away at any time and easily replaced.

In SE Asia giving someone a clock as a gift is a sign of death - when crossing cultural and religious lines be wary of what you say/do - you never know who you're going to greatly offend.OK, I apologise AGAIN!!! I am getting the idea that NOT laughing at your own self and taking yourself too serious is a fundamental issue, apparently, to those in Islam. Not only does rhark137 not like the humour, but you think it's vulgar as well.

I think I just may have discovered something VERY different about Americans in general and those of the Islamic faith. MOST Americans, not all, would have responded by slapping me, (not very hard I admit), that's what the INTENDED reaction was. But MOST American women would also have LAUGHED, after slapping me.

Not because the act of making the joke wasn't a bit on the vulgar side, but BECAUSE I PREFACED IT with an explanation that it was NOT intended to be taken as a SERIOUS matter. The laughter would have been at how foolishly I act, in light of the chewing out I just got from Ms. rhawk137. The JOKE is on myself, not at rhawk137's expense. As such, since it COULD NOT be taken as a SERIOUS attempt to either get her drunk, OR remove an article of clothing, it could NOT demean her. She has taken the statement as a personal assault on her honor where none was intended, she has NOT been able to laugh AT MY FOOLISHNESS, and she is STILL mad at me, even though I KNOW getting drunk is something she wouldn't do, even though I KNOW she is not of loose moral fiber and would not undress just because I pretend to attempt to get her to take off a SCARF, (google "burqa", all you see are scarves), and even though I now can see she feels persecuted out there in Idaho, probably with very good cause, in America, Muslim or not, to display the HAIR, isn't considered all THAT provocative except perhaps to another Muslim. In fact, women with shaved heads are seen as EXTREMELY erotic. NOW, none of this is by way of making ANY defense for my actions, what it is is a way to open the exchange of ideas and see if we can more completely understand cultural differences. If HAIR is off-limits, then I am at a loss. For an American, discussing something is quite different than DOING something. Am I to assume that talking and doing are one and the same in Islam?

But I am NOT in Idaho, I am NOT challenging her beliefs, and most of all, I am taking the TIME to try and understand BOTH of your's Religion so I may better interact with those of the Islamic faith should I have occasion to. All of which makes me the kind of person who SHOULD be allowed some slack and not have everything I say presumed to be offensive.

Let me turn the tables a bit so to better illustrate WHY Muslims and American culture are ending up at such odds....just like you have your antagonistic beliefs in common with other antagonists until you get to know who they are that is ALL you have in common. He is also a man so I dont see the parallel you keep refrencing....Now, I believe I "KNOW" that she was refering to the fact that Mavtech and I are both of the AGNOSTIC persuasion. We have BOTH explained the premis of AGNOSTICISM as a total lack of faith in ANY organized Religion for the reason that we require PROOF, above all else, to believe. This pretty much precludes following along in ANY Religion. Were I SERIOUS about my "religion", one could construe Agnosticism as a sort of religion....as it IS a defined set of beliefs, I COULD take offense at her lack of understanding and her lack of RESPECT in mis-spelling the name of my "religion", AND your agreement with her opinion. Mavtech & I also COULD be homosexuals, and Mavtech's "also being a man" would have SEVERELY different aspects under those conditions. Neither Mavtech or I EVER stated our sexual preferences. MY ONLY STATEMENT ON SEXUALITY wasI felt a mild attraction to a woman who demonstrated intelligenceUnder ordinary and customary conditions rhark137 "assumed" we were both heterosexual in making that statement. This could be considered both discriminatory AND offensive. Since none of the modesty required by Islam is a tenent of MY "religion" and Islam says, "When in a foreign land, observe the customs & laws of that land", I COULD assume you are being BAD Muslims for objecting to my humour as it is a very typical and customary form of American humour, and widely practised here. AND for "assuming" an offensive connotation in my joke because, as a "homosexual" I would not be the LEAST interested in her sexuality. I stated earlier that I found her MIND attractive, not her physical body.

Many Americans WOULD do EXACTLY that, tell you and your "ISLAMIC SENSIBILITIES" to take a flying leap and if you don't like America, go back where you came from". I believe BOTH of your may have encountered such attitudes. It TOTALY disregards the fact that rhark137 is as American as I am. And probably, because she at least HAS a religion and I do not, a BETTER American than I, in the eyes of many.

Hypothetically, you have offended me, you are now both amazed at how I could be so upset at this unintended breech of some etiquette you were not aware of, or if you WERE aware of, did not heed because YOUR beliefs are such that my actions are incorrect in the eyes of YOUR religion. Furthermore, you think I am being unreasonable for objecting to what was an unintentional mis-spelling of the name of my religion. ANTAGONIST means one who tries to make trouble, a person who disrupts things in order to effect change. AGNOSTIC is very different in meaning and ANTAGONIST could easily be construed as a slur against my "religion". (I use an example here, what if I refered to Islam as UGLAM, definately NOT a complimentary word, yet I only hit two wrong keys, the "I" key and teh "G" key becuase I am a loussy typoist?)

I stated earlier, that I believe I have hit on a significant difference. I think, perhaps, you will understand by the previous example, why I made that statement. I did not feel insulted by rhawk137's strong rejection of my lame attempts at humour. I think a better response would have been along the lines of "That was a LAME joke, Anonymouse", but that is my OPINION, you have a right to your own. I did not take offense at the "assumption" I was heterosexual, (even though it WAS correct), and I did not take issue with the mis-spelling of my creed. This does not make me a better person. It makes me one who understands the possibility of mis-communication.

If I say; "I want to KILL mohater" because he persists in an action I disagree with, I have made a statement that could be taken as VERY SERIOUS. Does everyone then assume I mean to kill mohater? Of course not. Americans say that phrase every day all day long. It is also vugar and offensive. We let it slide, because, American culture has made it acceptible as a form of expression, without any actual connotation that the speaker is actually going to go out and kill mohater. If an Afghani says; "I am going to KILL mohater", would we take that as a statement of intention? More likely since Afghanis live with and by the oath of blood feud.

This is an example of why I am Agnostic. Religious patterns form preconceived associations on the words and actions of others and leave out the ability to make a non discriminatory distinction about the INTENT of the speaker/do-er. Under shared national and cultural conditions, because both sides have the same heritage and an understanding of the possible associations, it rarely causes major problems. When two parties to a communication have UNEQUAL value sets and life experiences, the probability of misunderstanding increases. It is MY belief, THIS is EXACTLY what is currently happening between Americans and Muslims, Muslims here, and Muslims in the Middle East.

I can see I have already violated my oath to not debate mohater on this thread. If both rhark137 and mohater can see my point here, and completely disregard any perceived breach of etiquette, I will continue to ask and learn. If my offense was one of such an unforgettable nature, I will politely withdraw and only monitor the posts, taking no more part in the discussions.

How say you both?

So if I went up to a black guy and said "hey man this is a joke, there's two ni***rs in a bar" - or a chinese and said "hey listen to this one - two ch**ks are driving expensive cars and...." - even if they laugh it's still offensive. Even if everyone laughs - you're still either using terms that are deragatory or putting people on an uncomfortable level.

You're fine annoymouse - just the humor that is commonly used to women I find very wrong and abusive - and others may find no problems with it. Even if you have your intentions on the joke - someone else may percieve it completely different (just like before on the debate on Islam - I didn't understand your post - I responded - you then cleared it up and I said no apology necessary becuase I misunderstood you). Like I said before - it's all relative with the audience. I never joke anything sexual with females or laugh with males in a group when they try to humor themselves - I find it wrong to intrude on their closed door life - even if they want to mention it I usually avoid it in conversation (it's not my business).

You have not "violated" your oath - you've offended someone here who took their time to respond to your requests (twice now) and they've responded to you harshly in a way where you could have taken offense. We are all human and entitled to make mistakes - but it seems in life the only mistakes we seem to take note of the ones people point out.

Just like the Irish man said the Brit in the jail in the move In the name of the Father "live and let live"

MY mom says I'm a #2 :P

And I liked that movie.. a lot.

There is a lot in the Quran that contradicts Biblical and historical facts about the life of Jesus. There are secular or Jewish historians from that era that confirm the authenticity of the Scriptural account of Jesus (take for example Flavius Josephus). How can one believe the Quran on these points?

You may answer that the Quran is divine and thus correct, but if multiple sources confirm a particular historical account and a book written 700 years later disagrees it seems logical that one should question that book.

Secondly, the Bible and other texts were written in a time period when many people had witnessed the events concerning Jesus. Why do we lack records of people discrediting those accounts? Rome and Jerusalem at that time were both hostile to the Christians and thus any form of legitimate critique would have been listened to with great interest and noted by historians of the time.

Finally, it seems reasonable to me that Muhammad, living in a time when many people were out to get him would not want to set a precident for prophets being martyred or killed. Having a Jesus that never died probably helped his cause.


Sorry that is long. I hope my question is clear. If the historical record on an event is clear and cited from multiple sources, including some that would have perferred a different interpretation of the event, how can something hundreds of years later that 'disproves' that record be taken as authoritative?

There is a lot in the Quran that contradicts Biblical and historical facts about the life of Jesus. There are secular or Jewish historians from that era that confirm the authenticity of the Scriptural account of Jesus (take for example Flavius Josephus). How can one believe the Quran on these points?

You may answer that the Quran is divine and thus correct, but if multiple sources confirm a particular historical account and a book written 700 years later disagrees it seems logical that one should question that book.

If the Quran was very vague here - I would almost want to agree with you - but it states in the Quran that after Jesus left peope began to take him for more than what he was - even speaking about his when he ascended to heaven. The Quran also goes into detail about the people of Lot, Sodom, Cane and Abel, Abraham, etc. So with the differences in Jesus, Eve, and a few others - we see many with common ground.

Another thing to consider is if these accounts were by men - and then the Quran is divine - where the the "likelyhood" that one could have been tainted?
Finally I ask you - what do you think about all the speculation of Jesus having a "brother"?


Secondly, the Bible and other texts were written in a time period when many people had witnessed the events concerning Jesus. Why do we lack records of people discrediting those accounts? Rome and Jerusalem at that time were both hostile to the Christians and thus any form of legitimate critique would have been listened to with great interest and noted by historians of the time.

Finally, it seems reasonable to me that Muhammad, living in a time when many people were out to get him would not want to set a precident for prophets being martyred or killed. Having a Jesus that never died probably helped his cause.

I don't have an answer for the top one - as I am not a historian. Who could discredit it though - if they were not there and only sought to discredit this one fact?
As for the last question-
Again if Jesus was the only example of the miracle of the Quran - I would be tempted to agree with you - but the Quran has many other things in it. It explains the development of the fetus - about 1400 years before it was actually seen. It speaks about the battle of Rome and Persia at the time and forshadowed who would win. It's not the issue of Jesus that's the driving force - but the combination of everything that drives me to believe (even after questioning it for time only to verify my faith) that it can lead me to live a good fruitful life (along with some other things).

We believe that all the Prophets were protected by God - which is why they were not murdered even when the odds were stacked against them (Noah, Moses, etc.) Another point is that Muhammad was illiterate, nor was he a poet, so he was not in a position to come up with the Quran on his own. Also it seems this was probably the first time someone had said Jesus didn't die - it doesn't seem logical for someone to come out with that fact on their own - especially an unlearned person - who then came out with all these other facts and revelations.

what do you think about all the speculation of Jesus having a "brother"?Speculation? I think the Bible is pretty clear that Jesus had a brother, Catholics think otherwise though. I won't go too deep into Catholic beliefs- but they believe that Mary was sinless and died a virgin- things that I believe to be untrue. For Mary to have remained sinless she would have had to either have no mind of her own- basically be a puppet of God or have been divine. If she was human then she could think, if she could think then she sinned. I don't believe that a human being can go through their life without sinning, and that Jesus was the only being ever to step foot on this Earth who was able to do so because he was fully divine as well.

Catholics also believe that Jesus had no brothers or sisters because that would prove that Mary did not die a virgin.

Mark 3:31 says: Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him.

I admit this is ambigious and could refer to "brother" in the sense that Christians are all brothers and sisters in Christ, I believe there are other scriptures as well, but I don't have time to look them up right now.

Speculation? I think the Bible is pretty clear that Jesus had a brother, Catholics think otherwise though. I won't go too deep into Catholic beliefs- but they believe that Mary was sinless and died a virgin- things that I believe to be untrue. For Mary to have remained sinless she would have had to either have no mind of her own- basically be a puppet of God or have been divine. If she was human then she could think, if she could think then she sinned. I don't believe that a human being can go through their life without sinning, and that Jesus was the only being ever to step foot on this Earth who was able to do so because he was fully divine as well.


See I don't think it matters - we only believe the prophets were sinless - and Mary was not a Prophet. She was a part of the Prophecy since she bore a child with no father - but if she got married later and had kids so what - she dropped of the story after Jesus - and yes I totally agree - she was human.

As for the other Prophets though - I think they made mistakes - but did not sin - (ie Jonah ran away after his people rejected his message - that was not a sin - it was a mistake). For example a story of the Prophet Muhammad when he was calling people of Mecca to Islam - a blind man came to him and asked about Islam - the Prophet didn't give this man too much attention because he was concentrating on the big wigs of Mecca. Thereafter - there was a revelation of the chapter of the Quran about this very story to teach the Prophet a lesson.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/080.qmt.html

Yes as humans we all sin, but not all mistakes are sins.

I just think it's great what a heated issue it was for a bit between the Christians - and it really made no difference whether Jesus had a brother or not.

*Edit change Noah to Jonah -

As for the other Prophets though - I think they made mistakes - but did not sin - (ie Noah ran away after his people rejected his message - that was not a sin - it was a mistake



As a question, can you please tell me what you mean, I dont seem to understand by run away?

are you talking about when god commanded him to build the ark, or am I lost

thank you in advanced

As a question, can you please tell me what you mean, I dont seem to understand by run away?

are you talking about when god commanded him to build the ark, or am I lost

thank you in advanced

My error - it was Jonah who ran away after the people rejected his message (and was subsequently swallowed by the whale not Noah)

why do muslims want to push the jews into the sea?

and why not eat bacon. it tastes so good. i also had some really nice pork loin medalions with a peach salsa last weekend. it went great with the cab/shiraz i got from california 3 years ago.

why do muslims want to push the jews into the sea?

and why not eat bacon. it tastes so good. i also had some really nice pork loin medalions with a peach salsa last weekend. it went great with the cab/shiraz i got from california 3 years ago.


Name 1 square foot of land stolen from a Jew by a Muslim. Name one house, a backyard, a tool shed...you will not find it. Now, ask yourself the reverse. How much land have Jews taken from the Palestinians? It is an easy question to answer and there are no lies about it...just find a map of Israel dated 1960 and find one representative of the Israeli settlements today. They stole A LOT of land.


So I find it ironic that the question you pose is the reverse of reality.

why do muslims want to push the jews into the sea?

and why not eat bacon. it tastes so good. i also had some really nice pork loin medalions with a peach salsa last weekend. it went great with the cab/shiraz i got from california 3 years ago.

While hardliners do exist on the Muslim side (and the media just LOOOVES plasetering them on the news again and again) who say these things - most you find will do not take part in these sentiments. On the Israeli side - you find the hardliners saying "it's cheaper to kill them", or some Russian who just moved from Russia saying "Well I feel all this land should be for us" (what happened to the concept of Mother Russia?) - so here what you have is mainly a skewed view because of the media and lobbying groups.

The Israel/Palestine issue it probably the most misunderstood problem right now - so if you wish to ask more questions about it feel free to do so. I answered your question (without touching on other aspects of the conflict)- so follow up here if you like.

The simple answer here is because it is forbidden. Alcohol can be benficial in small quantities to one's health - yet in Islam alcohol is forbidden. The justification is when something's negative aspects outweigh it's positive - tis better to avoid such things.
Pig products are forbidden - some reasons I have heard are the following
1) In Islam it is required when slaughtering an animal that it's jugular vein be cut - this is to allow the blood to be revmoed before getting gutting it. Pigs really don't have necks - so you can't really do it that way
2) The pig is know to carry a wide host of parasites and bacteria - more than other animals
3) In the Holy Books (all of them) people who defied God were punished in different ways (Sodom, Lot) - some were destoryed by storms, some had the earth turned on them, some were turned to monkeys, and some were turned to pigs.

Again I am no scholar but this is the way I have percieved and learned it. So please if you wish more answers I may be able to investigate into the matter more.

The simple answer here is because it is forbidden. Alcohol can be benficial in small quantities to one's health - yet in Islam alcohol is forbidden. The justification is when something's negative aspects outweigh it's positive - tis better to avoid such things.


mohater, You asked me earlier to find an example of Islam not adapting to the times. The alcohol example is just that. Why are other religions ok with alcohol in moderation but not Islam? You say that if the negatives outweight the positives, than it is forbidden. But, it is scientifically and clinically proven that 1-2 servings of alcohol per day has absolutely no negative effects. So, after this discovery, why would Islam not accept a scientific/clinical finding and adapt to the times to allow alcohol in moderation?

Not to bash religion in general. But, isn't it difficult to have your whole life dictated by religion? I mean, for some, they have to check with their religion or as some would say "confer with God/Allah". People dictate their lives on something that is nothing but faith. Nothing is proven. No one hears literally directly from God. I don't believe that religion is meant to be like that anymore. I believe that back hundreds and hundreds of years ago, it was created to keep people in line and to somewhat control them. Most religions have adapted throughout history to allow more "trust" in the followers and to allow things that were formerly forbidden to be consumed in moderation. But, in my experience, Islam has not done that. It still dictates a person's whole life and you are pretty much controlled by your faith. I know that this isn't the case with every Muslim. I'm just making an observation for the sake of discussion so maybe I can learn more.

Another example would be the gambling thing. Let's speak hypothetically here. Let's say you and I are best friends IRL (which would be possible due to the fact that I don't give a $hit what religion someone is). We have about 6-10 guys who get together once every few weeks for a friendly poker game. Nothing serious. Just $10 per person per game. Because of your faith, you are forbidden to ever take part in something like that? It is accepted to turn down commeraderie with your friends and peers for your faith? I know this may be just me, but my friends and family come before my faith. (hey, I said I'm agnostic, not Godless).

Thanks.

You say that if the negatives outweight the positives, than it is forbidden. But, it is scientifically and clinically proven that 1-2 servings of alcohol per day has absolutely no negative effects. So, after this discovery, why would Islam not accept a scientific/clinical finding and adapt to the times to allow alcohol in moderation?
It was known back in the day before anesthesia that peopel would get intoxicated when they had to have a limb amputated - some scholars in Islam said at that it it could be permissible to induce intoxication if they felt the pain unbearable. I'm not sure I buy into the absolutely no negative effects - if you want to take that route of assisting in circulation of blood for the health benifits of alcohol - there are many foods that can do the same things (apples, dietary supplements, meds). To put it simply - think how many problems in society would be avoided if alcohol was never consumed like it is today - drunk driving, abuse, inhibition to committ crimes would all be avoided. I'm not preaching a world peace issue here - but most people I talk to see that alcohol does more harm to society than provides benifits overall - they still get drunk as they please but they see my point. Hence the concept of the negative aspects outweight the positive - not only on the person but on society as well.


Not to bash religion in general. But, isn't it difficult to have your whole life dictated by religion? I mean, for some, they have to check with their religion or as some would say "confer with God/Allah". People dictate their lives on something that is nothing but faith. Nothing is proven.
As usualy no offense taken. No it is not. Everything is Islam is justified to WHY something is forbidden. Things follow very logically when you study the reasoning behind many of the rules. Dalok's idea of "well kids are gonna screw so who cares" in the other thread is bothersome -yes people will defect - we're all still human. Islam is not a faith - more than anything it encompasses everything. For example - in Islamic state - if people are suffering (or even cattle for that matter) the leader is accountable if there is the possibility of providing for his people. One of the leaders aftee the Prophet Muhammad (Omar) used to roam the streets at night because he was afraid if ONE person under his jurisdiction was hungry or needed assistance he could provide. There was a story of him walking and hearing a women cursing at the leader - so he knocks and ask why she is cursing. She replies my children have nothing to eat and I have no way to provide for them - and the leader does nothing to help us. So he went back - got some food and prepared it for her family and some other things to make things a bit easier. He then asked her to write a release that she forgives the leader for his shortcomings. Some of the his friends walk by and say to him "Oh leader of the Muslims, why do you venture out at night" - it is then the lady realizes who he was. When he was assassinated later - wounded he asked to be buried with that note - for he needed all the help he could get when asked by God why he didn't provide more for the people whom he led.

Like I said - I've done soul searching (even into agnostic belief) and never found somewhere where I was happy like I am with Islam.

Another example would be the gambling thing. Let's speak hypothetically here. Let's say you and I are best friends IRL (which would be possible due to the fact that I don't give a $hit what religion someone is). We have about 6-10 guys who get together once every few weeks for a friendly poker game. Nothing serious. Just $10 per person per game. Because of your faith, you are forbidden to ever take part in something like that? It is accepted to turn down commeraderie with your friends and peers for your faith? I know this may be just me, but my friends and family come before my faith. (hey, I said I'm agnostic, not Godless).

Thanks.
We play poker all the time (just chips - no money) - even in HS and stuff I would play - just I couldn't take part in any of the winnings or losings. People have been very receptive to me - as I tell them things about my faith with the justifications. At school - I would go out to the "bars" sometimes with some friends. If they were just going to get drunk - I would usually abstain because it's no fun being the only sober one there. If they're going to eat, or watch a game, or just chill I would follow through. They sometimes would ask why I don't drink - I would tell them everything I've said above.

Edit - In Islam - Family comes before everything else in life.

Name 1 square foot of land stolen from a Jew by a Muslim. Name one house, a backyard, a tool shed...you will not find it. Now, ask yourself the reverse. How much land have Jews taken from the Palestinians? It is an easy question to answer and there are no lies about it...just find a map of Israel dated 1960 and find one representative of the Israeli settlements today. They stole A LOT of land.


So I find it ironic that the question you pose is the reverse of reality.

i said nothing about stealing land. i just asked why muslims wanted jews to be pushed into the sea. read much?

As for the other Prophets though - I think they made mistakes - but did not sin - (ie Jonah ran away after his people rejected his message - that was not a sin - it was a mistake). The reason Jonah got swalloed by a whale was because he was disobeying God- God told him to go one way and Johan went the other. Jonah was onboard a ship heading in the opposite direction he should have been and a huge storm came upon the ship. The sailors were terrified and didn't know what to do so Jonah told them to throw him overboard, because once they did the storm would stop. So they threw him overboard and the storm stopped, then a whale swalloed him, carried him for a few days and spit him out by the town God wanted him to go to.

Disobeying God is a sin in my book, and Jonah repented of his mistake, but it was a sin none the less.

The reason Jonah got swalloed by a whale was because he was disobeying God- God told him to go one way and Johan went the other. Jonah was onboard a ship heading in the opposite direction he should have been and a huge storm came upon the ship. The sailors were terrified and didn't know what to do so Jonah told them to throw him overboard, because once they did the storm would stop. So they threw him overboard and the storm stopped, then a whale swalloed him, carried him for a few days and spit him out by the town God wanted him to go to.

Disobeying God is a sin in my book, and Jonah repented of his mistake, but it was a sin none the less.

See here's the thing though - he was made an example of - it's in the scripture about him disobying God - his people would not listen to him after he tried and tried - and then he ran. They drew straws and his came up short everytime on the ship. Here it's not considered sinning because it was sent as a message to everyone else. If you or I disobey God - I don't think the scriptures will be updated to include our tale.

Thus his "sin" was a blessing to man kind - for it shows our weakness as human beings - and God's mercy. That's why I don't look upon it as a sin.

*Edit - I guess the main for me argument is that Jonah is a Prophet - thus I don't look at his actions as sins - even when they could be classified as such (disobying God is a sin). Since his story was transcribed into the Holy Books - it was a lesson to man kind - thus the concept of sinning (even though he did repent for disobeying God) here does not fit for me.

Whether or not it's a blessing, it's still a sin. Even though we learn the most when we fall the hardest, that doesn't mean that the initial mistake we made wasn't a sin. Yes we were able to learn from Jonah, but that doesn't justify or rectify his sin.

i said nothing about stealing land. i just asked why muslims wanted jews to be pushed into the sea. read much?


Ok lets say I come, kill your wife or husband, kill your children, and break down your house and land and gardens so I can build a "wall"

what are you going to do dear brother?

as mohater said, its just the extremes BUT, because some jews dislike what the governement and the army is doing.

so you could kind of say, push the army in the sea:)

EDIT: actually I have some jews as friends too,

you see every religion has its bad and good people.

like iran for example, a rose is beuitiful but it still has thorns :)

Whether or not it's a blessing, it's still a sin. Even though we learn the most when we fall the hardest, that doesn't mean that the initial mistake we made wasn't a sin. Yes we were able to learn from Jonah, but that doesn't justify or rectify his sin.


Its the reasons that these things happen to the prophets.

if these things didnt happen to the prophets , then what would we have as an example.

another example is prophet adam. when he and his wife eve ate from the forbidden tree.

we were destined to be on this earth :) as a test :)

I deleted because I was taken off topic. Sorry mohater.

Guys STOP - this is not a time to hijack this thread
I am going to request all the posts off topic be hidden

Mav - you're playing the game of extremes just like Iran is - while the hardliner Zionist started this problem back in the late 19th centruy - many have suffered on both sides. This isn't a look what they did us but not what we did to them problem.

*Edit - it's fine if people ask politically motivated questions - I just didn't want them to dominate the thread

Guys STOP - this is not a time to hijack this thread
I am going to request all the posts off topic be hidden

Mav - you're playing the game of extremes just like Iran is - while the hardliner Zionist started this problem back in the late 19th centruy - many have suffered on both sides. This isn't a look what they did us but not what we did to them problem.


I agree,

I thought it was if you dont have any questions then stay away.

and also, you said in the begining that you dont want questions about politics and that kind of stuff

Not that I mind at all...if hiding posts is what is necessary to generate informative discussions, I am all for it. Actually, learned a lot from Captal...thanks! Just want to hear the criteria as to what posts get pulled and which ones go forward.

Thanks

In this thread they were thought to be off topic. Being a sticky thread devoted to one discussion ... it gets a little more policing than the regular threads.

On hold, since I haven't officially received permission from rhawk137 to return, but a question occured to me 2 days ago when the subject of what to make of the Qu'an being the final word written by the hand of Allah through Muhammed.

What, if anything, did the Qu'an say about the prophet himself.
Does Allah give words about Muhammed as he dictates the word or does Muhammed have any further writings that tell us how he perceived himself and his place in history?

On hold, since I haven't officially received permission from rhawk137 to return, but a question occured to me 2 days ago when the subject of what to make of the Qu'an being the final word written by the hand of Allah through Muhammed.

What, if anything, did the Qu'an say about the prophet himself.
Does Allah give words about Muhammed as he dictates the word or does Muhammed have any further writings that tell us how he perceived himself and his place in history?

Chances are you won't get a reply from her - I think she was angry enough to stay away all together (she didn't even reply to my PM)

2 things -
1) The Quran was not written by the Prophet Muhammad during his life - it was memorized by him (per revelation) and he taught his companions as it was reveled chapter by chapter. It was only after the Prophet's death and during the 'Rida' (defection) battles that the leader of the Muslims (Abu Bakr) (probably 2-6 months tops after his death) that they began to write copies out for many of the people who had memorized it were dying in battles.
2) As for the life of the Prophet - many parts of it are in the Quran - but there is also a book which gives a detailed account his life as it went through The Sealed Nectar (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1591440718/qid=1122747548/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-8501202-1821706?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). In the Quran there is also a number of mentions of the various Prophets and seen here (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/quranindex.html#P). As well as under each of their respective names.

NOTE - Remember not to take the verses individually out of context.

The Prophet personally had no writings - he was illiterate through his death. All accounts of his sayings and life were collected after his death.

I am now confused, it was my understanding earlier, that Muhammed had written the Qu'an although he was illiterate. This was advanced as a confirmation of the revelation as coming directly from Allah as Muhammed could not have actually written it unless Allah acted through him to git-er-dun.So how is the Quran the TRUE word of God? Well we all know that God himself cannot write- something that creates the universe doesnt possess human characterists right? So there has to be a way that the Quran is REVEALED.
Mohammad (pbuh) was illeterate- he could read nor could he write- God wrote the Quran through him- Gabriel the angel came to Mohammad and say "read" and Mohammad (pbuh) said "I can't" and there his hand began to move as he wrote - God did truly write the whole book himself, Mohammad (pbuh) was just his vechicle and it was b/c he was illiterate that no one could say that he wrote the book not God.
That is why so much of the Bible is like the Torah and why soo much of the Koran is like the Bible and Torah. It was the final message - pure and untouched.
Memorizing it and relating it orally, as great Arab tradition has done for centuries, is a far cry from "proof" of the miracle. I was ready to accept the writing BY Muhammed as a "proof" but accepting an oral rendition can be easily explained away as Muhammed said; "blah blah blah". This is hard for an Agnostic, we require hard proofs, even if they are testimonials that the person actually witnessed the occurance and no remnant proofs are remaining, the first person acccount of the "writing" would be a significant "proof", even if Muhammed appeared from a closed room with the Qu'an in hand and no scholar was present with him to transcribe it at the time of revelation. BUMMER!
:rolleyes: I coulda got behind that one. It's always been a quibble of mine that the Bible was written LONG after Christ's time.

I drove by Mosque yesterday, (Friday), and saw everyone all dressed up. Mo goes to Mosque every Friday. (He's the only Muslim I know right now.)

1.) Is Friday an equivalent to Christian "Sunday Mass or Service" or Jewish Saturday "Sabbath" or is one day the same as the next with respect to the BEST or favored day of the week to go to Mosque?

2.) Many people were wearing traditional garb. Many were very colorful. I saw mostly African decent Muslims wearing colorful aparell and more traditional Arab appearing people wearing mostly white or very subdued hues of muslin or cotton.

Is this a constant throughout the Middle East and Africa or American in nature?

Are there any writings on proper apparell in Mosque?
Wearing brightly colored clothing could be considered as "showy" or less humble.

3.) Are there any eating guidelines in Islam regarding Mosque?

Is it better to eat prior to worship services or after?

Are there generally "coffee times" or a similar tradition for Isalmic services or their aftermath?
Protestants have long had a coffee/brunch between early and late services, I have not witnesses the same in Catholic Mass although I understand recent changes have made a "between Mass" refreshment period acceptable in some Catholic churches. Southern Baptist and Church of God services have always been big on mixing eating with Worship in many locations with a "get to know your brethren" pot luck after service.

Is gluttony, eating to excess, a sin?

4.) Is Mosque generally the only group worship or do individuals meet in homes for communal worship services in lieu of Mosque?

Enough for today's session. I have more questions, some major, some minor, but Mosque peaked my interest yesterday.

....
Memorizing it and relating it orally, as great Arab tradition has done for centuries, is a far cry from "proof" of the miracle. I was ready to accept the writing BY Muhammed as a "proof" but accepting an oral rendition can be easily explained away as Muhammed said; "blah blah blah". This is hard for an Agnostic, we require hard proofs, even if they are testimonials that the person actually witnessed the occurance and no remnant proofs are remaining, the first person acccount of the "writing" would be a significant "proof", even if Muhammed appeared from a closed room with the Qu'an in hand and no scholar was present with him to transcribe it at the time of revelation. BUMMER!
:rolleyes: I coulda got behind that one. It's always been a quibble of mine that the Bible was written LONG after Christ's time.
The miracle is the words that are in the Quran - the meaning and the stories. I just wanted to set it right about when it was first written. The person who ordered it to be written (Abu Bakr) was one of the first people to have memorized it along side of the Prophet. I believe if you read some of the chapters I noted in other posts you would probably be surprised (fetus development, foreshadowing the Roman victory over Persia, etc)

1.) Is Friday an equivalent to Christian "Sunday Mass or Service" or Jewish Saturday "Sabbath" or is one day the same as the next with respect to the BEST or favored day of the week to go to Mosque?
Yes BUT it is the day Muslims are REQUIRED to go to the Mosque - now it doesn't mean if you don't go you're condemned to hell or lightning will strike you where you stand. 5 prayers a day - I usually do 2-3 a day in the Mosque (until I move for work where I'll probably be going once or twice a week considering the distance)

2.) Many people were wearing traditional garb. Many were very colorful. I saw mostly African decent Muslims wearing colorful aparell and more traditional Arab appearing people wearing mostly white or very subdued hues of muslin or cotton.
They're only traditional to their respective cultural backgroups - there is no such thing as "Islamic" clothing. Some people wear the traditional Middle Eastern garb (seen here (http://adeela.industradegroup.com/400/male_st_400.jpg))
I have like 4-5 - sometimes if I just run out quick to catch prayer at the Mosque and I'm wearing dusty pants from yardwork, or shorts because I just woke up - I just throw it on and go. The main rule in Islam is dress modestly - without going into the details of the rules.

Is this a constant throughout the Middle East and Africa or American in nature?
Yes and no - you find many people wear the traditional for their culture - but you also see them wearing just shirt and jeans. Other places have their own "traditional" clothing, Pakistan, India, the rest of SE Asia. It's most the area's history.

Are there any writings on proper apparell in Mosque?
Wearing brightly colored clothing could be considered as "showy" or less humble.
No not really - it's just discourged from having pictures of people on clothing or area of prayer - you don't want to give the impression you're praying to that person.

3.) Are there any eating guidelines in Islam regarding Mosque?
The same for eating outside of a Mosque. Generally a Mosque is an all in one, prayer, congregation, lecture, food hall. Some communities (like mine) started off small with a small structure - that just had one big room so it was our all in one. Recently we've built a new one and now have a gym - that is used to lecures, food, events, etc. Then the prayer hall is mainly for prayer or lectures/session.

Is it better to eat prior to worship services or after?

Are there generally "coffee times" or a similar tradition for Isalmic services or their aftermath?

Protestants have long had a coffee/brunch between early and late services, I have not witnesses the same in Catholic Mass although I understand recent changes have made a "between Mass" refreshment period acceptable in some Catholic churches. Southern Baptist and Church of God services have always been big on mixing eating with Worship in many locations with a "get to know your brethren" pot luck after service.
The only religious rule here is you don't go to the Mosque with stinky breath (to not bother those around you) - and to go not full and not hungry - don't want to be full and uncomfortable in prayer - and not be hungry so that you can't concentrate on prayer.

We have community potlucks and picnic's and such - even a yearly bbq at the mosque. Is Islam - there is blessing in congregation of Muslims if for the right intentions.

Is gluttony, eating to excess, a sin?
Yes - Islam teaches moderation in everything -


4.) Is Mosque generally the only group worship or do individuals meet in homes for communal worship services in lieu of Mosque?

No we do group prayer at homes - say you're invited over for dinner and it's a large group - we could do a prayer as a group in that persons's home. Or it's time for the mid-day prayer and they don't do a congregation in the Mosque (not practical on a daily basis since most people are at work) - we do a group prayer with the family, or if I am at work I just pray there. Prayer in the Mosque, however, is said to have the greatest blessing. So not in "lieu" - but it happens and sometimes is more practical.

What reaction, and what is the proper way for me to attend Mosque, should I decide to "first hand" it? I think it would be educational to watch, perhaps be instructed as to mannerisms and etiquette, but have no real wish to convert. Would attending as an observer be disrespectful?
Who or how would one do this in a proper manner, assuming a non-beliver could ever be allowed into Mosque.

What reaction, and what is the proper way for me to attend Mosque, should I decide to "first hand" it? I think it would be educational to watch, perhaps be instructed as to mannerisms and etiquette, but have no real wish to convert. Would attending as an observer be disrespectful?
Who or how would one do this in a proper manner, assuming a non-beliver could ever be allowed into Mosque.

For a Muslim who knows his religion - it shouldn't be a big deal. If you knew someone there it would make things a lot easier (not as akward). Also about disrespect - depends on the person. In reality - no it's not disrecpectful - and they should be receptive to you as for having a desire to learn. As usually there are morons in the world - and some of them are Muslim. So it could go either way.

Another thing is the rhetoric people use in the sermons varies from Mosque to Mosque. Some give good informative sermons, some give the same dry boring, and sometimes you get a psycho (like all other religions).

If you want to blend in they key is to be there on time for prayer (like 10-15 mins before the Friday sermon starts, sit in the back and just listen. You could participate in the prayer - probably be kinda akward (since you don't know what to do)- but if you were looking to see the complete thing there you go. Usually after prayer everyone says hi to everyone (very common and even if it's people you don't know) and it's by shaking hands. How Muslims greet is person who speaks first (doesnt matter who) says "As-salamu Alaikum" (Peace be Upon You) - the reply is "Wa-Alaikum As-salam" (And peace be upon you). Other than that you can get by completely with English at almost all Mosques.

Well guys, looks like the week is over - and this thread will be unsticky'd shortly here today so without further adieu here are my closing remarks -

Everything I replied to here - it was my purest intention to only post the truth - any good that came from this came only by the grace of God - any bad must have come from my own ignorance. Any answers I have given that seem vague or ambiguous please ask for clarification - I am human and have my limitations and mistakes.

For anyone I have offended or verbally oppressed - I ask for your forgiveness for my mistakes and shortcomings. We are all human - and thus weak by nature. It is only when we collaborate as individuals with common goals we are able to over come many of these weaknesses and strive to better ourselves as a people.

This thread was made primarily for an education standpoint where I stood on the podium and hoped to be addressed by the masses - and not the other way around. I hope we have been able to break down some of the stereotypes and misconceptions (there were many I’m surprised did not come up) which many of you have done for me on other threads and topics.

Thank You for your time and patience,

Wa'Salamu Alaikum
(And Peace be Upon You)

mohater

mohater, thanks for the effort you put into this thread. Obviously, I don't know you IRL. But, if you are in real life like you have been in this thread, you are an asset to the world and your religion. I only wish all Muslims were like you and rhawk. It's unfortunate that the idiots of your religion (or claim to be) make it harder for people like you and rhawk to live in our country and others. I'm not a huge fan of religion as a whole. But, it was definitely interesting to have the Q and A session on Islam.

mohater, as Mavtech said, thank you for your effort. The thread will remain open so hopefully people will continue to ask questions.

My thanks as well- it's always interesting to talk religion, especially people of other religions :)

Thanks Mohater, don't stray to far, this thread shouldn't die this soon.

My thanks as well- it's always interesting to talk religion, especially people of other religions :)

Like my religion? :rolleyes:

Like my religion? :rolleyes:
Worship of one's self is not a religion.

I'm still around

That closing was for the sticky part of the thread

you never fail to please and entertain do you ray?

Thanks for the thread Mohater. You are an asset to the Podium. How old are you, and are you married? I know a girl in your area and I might hook you up. :cool:

Thanks for the thread Mohater. You are an asset to the Podium. How old are you, and are you married? I know a girl in your area and I might hook you up. :cool:

What is this - this matrimonial section (you're on naseeb aren't you?)

Not married - in the market though, but also not looking for the you know someone who knows someone who has a cousin, who's friend, who blah blah blah...

The miracle is the words that are in the Quran - the meaning and the stories. I just wanted to set it right about when it was first written. The person who ordered it to be written (Abu Bakr) was one of the first people to have memorized it along side of the Prophet. I believe if you read some of the chapters I noted in other posts you would probably be surprised (fetus development, foreshadowing the Roman victory over Persia, etc)


So what does the Quran say exactly of fetus development? Can you post excerpt? Also the forshadowing of the Roman Victory over Persia.

The Christian Bible foreshadows the dispersion of Jews and then the reunification into Israel. If Muslims believe that Jesus was a Prophet, why wouldn't the nation of Israel just be a fulfillment of the prophecy?

So what does the Quran say exactly of fetus development? Can you post excerpt? Also the forshadowing of the Roman Victory over Persia.

The Christian Bible foreshadows the dispersion of Jews and then the reunification into Israel. If Muslims believe that Jesus was a Prophet, why wouldn't the nation of Israel just be a fulfillment of the prophecy?

Fetus development

http://www.islamset.com/bioethics/obstet/fetdvp.html

The Roman (Byzantian) defeat by the Persians but later Romans came back to win. The jist of the story is the

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/030.qmt.html


Israel - was established by force. Intially everything was "kosher" in the early 1900's - when Jews were buying land from the Palestinians (the area was 10-14% Jewish at that time). Then with the rise of Zionism in the area - many of the Arabs felt attacked and intimidated and attacked some of the Jews (1919 was one big incident) - Post WWII - the British mandate - the area had hordes of Jewish people shipped there - and that was to be there new home. With no say from the locals, who then also had no government to present their case to the world because of the mandate.

Say you're at home and happy in your neighborhood. Predominatly one type of people there, and a mix and match of others. Say there is a MASSIVE forced move of one of the monirties of the area. They then begin to excersie force on some issues, even land grabbing, and you have no say because you have no government to represent you, and they are now the superior power due to the mandate that got them moved there.

Yes the re-establishment of Israel is one of the Prophecy's of the day of Judgement - I don't think FORCING it to be established is really how it works though. That and those who support the notion of Israel in that way are only looking at the text at face value. I think there is more meaning to it then the establishment of the almost Jewish only country - Israel. If it was just that - shouldn't we already be there?

It's funny if you think about it - the evangelicals want Israel to be established to bring about the day of judgement - when supposdly all the Jews (and every other non-christian) they are supporting will burn in hell for all eternity because they didn't believe in their faith.

quick bump since Ramadan is coming and some people in the lounge said they would like to ask some questions - so post away should you like to ask something.

:bump:

Since there are so many Islamophobes out in the United States, here is an opportunity to for you to learn the correct teachings.

Personally, I know there are two types of people, one who wish to gain knowledge and others who are bent on hating something. First there was the evil Red Army, now its the "Islamofacists", "extremists", "Jihadists" and all the other terms coined up.

Regardless, feel free to ask, and I will do my best to give you the correct information based off the Quran and the traditions of the Prophet(sa). All questions can then be merged into the Wikipost.

Edit: Please limit your questions about *Islam*, not of actions of certain individual people. I can explain the actions of some, but that is not the purpose of this thread.

Too bad most of the Islamophobes aren't on Slickdeals :)

My biggest question / concern, which is more rhetorical and ?maybe outside the scope of this thread, is why there isn't more global condemnation of muslim extremists, especially by other muslims. I get concerned when I read things like "40% of muslims in England think that terrorist tactics are OK" and the like (I can't remember the exact number so I apologize if that is incorrect).

We have islamic relation groups like C.A.I.R. in the USA here, and they spend most of their time fighting, not unlike the NAACP, for civil rights issues, and defending Islamic people who commit crimes, instead of trying to work to better the name of Muslims everywhere.

I'm perplexed by the relative quiet by the majority of Muslims in teh US and abroad. The silence leads me to feel (even if it is untrue) that the majority of Muslims, while not condoning or encouragin the terror acts, also don't necessarily discourage them either or disagree with what happens. And I do have a problem if the majority of non-extremist Muslims have quiet support for what goes on, even if they themselves would never partake in the "jihad".

Why is it important in the Muslim faith to identify Mohammad as being a prophet placing him second to Allah as in: ašhadu 'al-lā ilāha illā-llāhu wa 'ašhadu 'anna muħammadan rasūlu-llāh. Why not just mention Allah without Mohammad, as in: I testify there is no god but Allah (and leave it at that?) By placing Mohammad in the same sentence with Allah, it takes away all that belongs to Allah, forcing him to share the glory, yes? If Allah is the almighty of all, why would a lesser being, a human, be given any type of mention in that creed?

Peachyum, perhaps mohater can give a better, more well-informed answer but here's my quick take on an interesting question (that, strangely enough, I've been asked before).

Why is it important in the Muslim faith to identify Mohammad as being a prophet placing him second to Allah as in: ašhadu 'al-lā ilāha illā-llāhu wa 'ašhadu 'anna muħammadan rasūlu-llāh. Why not just mention Allah without Mohammad, as in: I testify there is no god but Allah (and leave it at that?) By placing Mohammad in the same sentence with Allah, it takes away all that belongs to Allah, forcing him to share the glory, yes? If Allah is the almighty of all, why would a lesser being, a human, be given any type of mention in that creed?

Actually, while I can understand why this misunderstanding would arise from the statement of declaration of Islamic creed (that you quoted), Muhammad is not 'second to Allah' in any respect, shape or form ... And, you're right that Muhammad is a human and not separate from other Prophets of God - Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, etc. (There rae many references to this in the Quran. E.g., Chapter 2, verse 285 "...We make no difference between any of His messengers").

The rationale for mentioning Muhammad as the prophet in Islamic creed appears to be quite simple actually. Acknowledging Muhammad as the prophet is what distinguishes a Muslim from Christians (and, further, from Jews). Only stating that Allah alone is the deity worthy of worship leaves open the question of which "version" of the diving Law is applicable or, put another way, teachings of which prophet does one follow.

By the way, as with any efforts to rationalize or explain the "why" behind an aspects of Islam, I do not claim to "know" that I'm correct. I am only stating what TO ME appears to be the reason. And, only Allah knows the true reason ...

Peachyum, perhaps mohater can give a better, more well-informed answer but here's my quick take on an interesting question (that, strangely enough, I've been asked before).



Actually, while I can understand why this misunderstanding would arise from the statement of declaration of Islamic creed (that you quoted), Muhammad is not 'second to Allah' in any respect, shape or form ... And, you're right that Muhammad is a human and not separate from other Prophets of God - Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, etc. (There rae many references to this in the Quran. E.g., Chapter 2, verse 285 "...We make no difference between any of His messengers").

The rationale for mentioning Muhammad as the prophet in Islamic creed appears to be quite simple actually. Acknowledging Muhammad as the prophet is what distinguishes a Muslim from Christians (and, further, from Jews). Only stating that Allah alone is the deity worthy of worship leaves open the question of which "version" of the diving Law is applicable or, put another way, teachings of which prophet does one follow.

By the way, as with any efforts to rationalize or explain the "why" behind an aspects of Islam, I do not claim to "know" that I'm correct. I am only stating what TO ME appears to be the reason. And, only Allah knows the true reason ...

Why do I always get the feeling I'm being replied to by the Wizard with you? :lol:

The reason I asked about the Creed is because to be honest, it comes across that in order to believe in the one, you must believe in the other rather than taking the basic tenets to heart.
It's kinda creepy, to tell ya the truth. It would be like (in a roundabout way) saying the Pledge of Allegiance and inserting "I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the President of the United States." We can see clearly in this perspective that a person might feel they want to pledge allegiance to a flag and the U.S., but not the President who oversees it. The Creed seems all-inclusive. While Mohammad may have recounted his path and the things said to him to be scribed, he himself didn't conjure these things of his own volition. He was simply a vessel of communication and therefore, no extra prominence should be given him over any other Prophet. Even Jesus tried (and failed) to get men to give glory to God alone. What I don't know is if the Creed is something that Mohammad directed be said or if this was something that men (imams) decided should be said to newly indoctrinated.

Parafly:

My first response is what are your resources that show protests against extremists?

Protest in Jordan:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,175150,00.html
Protests in Morocco
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2007/04/moroccans-protest-islamic-terrorism-in.html

There have also been similar forums/protests in other countries. While these probably are not to the scale you are looking for - in your eyes there are none. One can go on for days on this - but Dnish Dsouza said something very profound in an interview once (I'm paraphrasing):

The USA has forced people to either choose to be with the US or with whom the USA has dubbed terrorists. These people know the terrorists, it's normal to them. The USA is a foreign to them, and they, like everyone else, prefer what they know for certain.

On to CAIR - you're simply wrong there. Your source of information for CAIR is the media, which does nothing but play CAIR in the worst possible ways. I know many directors of CAIR (each state has one where they have an office) and have attended lectures by the National Comm. Director of CAIR national (Ibrahim Hooper). They mostly take legit cases, but everyone now and then get a sour grape. They actually turn down a lot of cases (I know people who interned there and I can tell you stories you will laugh at when you hear what people tried to pass off as prejudicial). If you follow all the high profile cases that CAIR was attacked for (Charity cases, Samia Al-Arian, etc.) you'll see the vast majority of these people were either found not guilty, charges dismissed, or a hung jury. The problem is they are put under the spot light when the trial starts, but when nothing pans out, no one bothers saying "ok, we were wrong, sorry" (see Holy Land trial in Richardson TX that ended today). The admin took a firefight when arrests were made on a lot of these cases, and in the end they ended up being mostly bogus charges.

Peachyum - you're comparison there is a bit weak. No one ever says the president is one who is divinely inspired by God to take certain actions, or say certain things. While in a religious contexts, this is accepted for all those who were sent by God to guide the people (Noah, Moses, John, Jesus, Aaron, etc.).

The acceptance of Muhammed (PBUH) in the declaration of the faith is attributing him as final messenger, the seal of the Prophets per say. In doing so, Muslims accept his message as the final one, superseding previous rules from different prophets if noted. Hence it is at the root of the faith.

Another thing is the glory is not shared. Muslims accept God as containing all attributed of infinity, and in the Quran in more than one place God is given the attribute of "nothing being like him." Finally, the complete declaration includes that he, Muhammed (PBUH) is a slave of God.

The same concept exists in Christianity, proclaiming when they are recognized in the Church (converting) or are given last rites (repent for sins, accept God and Jesus as the savior).

Not really sure if I answered your question, please follow up if that's the case.

Peachyum - you're comparison there is a bit weak. No one ever says the president is one who is divinely inspired by God to take certain actions, or say certain things. While in a religious contexts, this is accepted for all those who were sent by God to guide the people (Noah, Moses, John, Jesus, Aaron, etc.).

The acceptance of Muhammed (PBUH) in the declaration of the faith is attributing him as final messenger, the seal of the Prophets per say. In doing so, Muslims accept his message as the final one, superseding previous rules from different prophets if noted. Hence it is at the root of the faith.

Another thing is the glory is not shared. Muslims accept God as containing all attributed of infinity, and in the Quran in more than one place God is given the attribute of "nothing being like him." Finally, the complete declaration includes that he, Muhammed (PBUH) is a slave of God.

The same concept exists in Christianity, proclaiming when they are recognized in the Church (converting) or are given last rites (repent for sins, accept God and Jesus as the savior).

Not really sure if I answered your question, please follow up if that's the case.

You answered it as well as you could, I guess. What I mean by that is that if it is to be suggested that the person believes there will be no further Prophets after Mohammad, then it too should be added to the Creed so that a person knows exactly what it is they are agreeing to. As they say, it's what comes out of the mouth that will get a person into trouble, not what they put into it.

And I'll add my thanks for having this thread, Mohater. I've many questions that may take time to get around to asking, but hopefully this thread will still be around to do so. Hugs to you and Neo. ;)

damnit - you quoted me so I can't fix it...

per se...

(and thanks for Neo for beginning the answer).

I'm sure I'm one of those "Islamophobes" Sultan is referencing, with my comments concerning the links between Islam and Fascism on other threads. However, something good comes out of being relegated to an Islamophobe; I found out about this thread! I think this thread is a great idea, and thank those who have taught all of us in it.

And of course Mohater's comments concerning Islamic hatred of pride contrast well with Sultan's comments here.

None of the answers will be *my* opinion. Hence my credentials dont need to be disclosed.

Anywho, on to business.

[random musings]I am not an expert on Islam. I would like to learn more, but I am worried. How does one approach Islamic faith? Mosque seems like a place with many rules, wear this, do that, bow now, repeat that; there seems to be a high barrier to entry. The Koran in English is of the devil, or something, because it is only to be read in Persian. Supposedly the Koran has changed considerably during it's life on earth, but such things cannot be studied in Islamic countries, because it detracts from the argument that the Bible was changed but the Koran has not, perhaps.[/random musings]

I think one fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity is that of relationship to God. Christianity is in it's core about relationship; the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God. Relationship is a function of God's character, and we are built to relate to one another because we are built in the likeness of God. This seems to be contrasted with Islamic theory, which pushes God so high into heaven that he is unapproachable. If God wants, he sends Gabriel to chilax with Muhummad (pbuh), and if he doesn't like what's going on with your heart, well it's curtains for the human. It seems very authoritarian, as compared to Christianity where God sends Jesus to rebuild the relationship between God and man; to allow man to be part of the community intrinsic in God. Do I understand Islam correctly in that it has a very authoritarian view of God? Is there any community focus within heaven according to it's teachings, or is it a more tiered approach, with angels being with angels, man being with man, and God alone as monarch in inapproachable light?

Is good this had a rebirth, I learned much and even managed to be misunderstood by a woman of the faith a long time ago in this thread - I think she stormed off totally disgusted with me and I still never completely understood why.

Dunt understand why it's now a general thread and not a sticky though. It deserved sticky-dom.

....

Anywho, on to business.

[random musings]I am not an expert on Islam. I would like to learn more, but I am worried. How does one approach Islamic faith? Mosque seems like a place with many rules, wear this, do that, bow now, repeat that; there seems to be a high barrier to entry. The Koran in English is of the devil, or something, because it is only to be read in Persian. Supposedly the Koran has changed considerably during it's life on earth, but such things cannot be studied in Islamic countries, because it detracts from the argument that the Bible was changed but the Koran has not, perhaps.[/random musings]

Quran is in Arabic, and there are many institutions that exist to ensure the Quran they have used is the same as it was over 1400 years ago. Such things are EXTENSIVELY studied in Islamic countries (note: Not every Islamic country is like Saudi, but believe it or not, they have an institution dedicated to the preservation of the Quran in Saudi).

The Quran in English is not the "Devil" - it is a translation and only that. You're being silly with all your ramblings about visiting a Mosque having such barriers to enter. Many have open houses, outreach offices, etc. Do you dress immodestly to your religious institution? Do you behave in an improper way when there? The movements you describe are attributed to the formal prayer - which you (as a visitor) would not be obliged to partake in since you're not Muslim.



I think one fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity is that of relationship to God. Christianity is in it's core about relationship; the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God. Relationship is a function of God's character, and we are built to relate to one another because we are built in the likeness of God. This seems to be contrasted with Islamic theory, which pushes God so high into heaven that he is unapproachable. If God wants, he sends Gabriel to chilax with Muhummad (pbuh), and if he doesn't like what's going on with your heart, well it's curtains for the human. It seems very authoritarian, as compared to Christianity where God sends Jesus to rebuild the relationship between God and man; to allow man to be part of the community intrinsic in God. Do I understand Islam correctly in that it has a very authoritarian view of God? Is there any community focus within heaven according to it's teachings, or is it a more tiered approach, with angels being with angels, man being with man, and God alone as monarch in inapproachable light?

What is your source of this information on Islam? Have you read the Old Testament and related stories in the new Testament? There's plenty to connect that God punished those who rejected him. This is not something unique to Islam. How does Christianity NOT teach an authoritarian view of God? That God has prescribed what is "good" and forbidden what is "evil" (and in all this said his mercy is endless).

In any case, you're view is not universal in Christianity. Unitarians and Jehovah Witness' (among a few other Christan groups) do not attribute Jesus as the son of God (but accept him as the Messiah). They believe God is given the attribute of infinity, is unique and nothing is like him (this is also shared in Judaism and Islam).

A common prayer in Arabic is May God make our most blessed day the day we see him (Day of Reckoning). The goal is always to become "close" to God.

Is good this had a rebirth, I learned much and even managed to be misunderstood by a woman of the faith a long time ago in this thread - I think she stormed off totally disgusted with me and I still never completely understood why.

Dunt understand why it's now a general thread and not a sticky though. It deserved sticky-dom.

Not every female is open to flirting. Along those lines, expanding a joke after initially being told off is usually not a good idea.

In any case, you're view is not universal in Christianity. Unitarians and Jehovah Witness' (among a few other Christan groups) do not attribute Jesus as the son of God (but accept him as the Messiah). They believe God is given the attribute of infinity, is unique and nothing is like him (this is also shared in Judaism and Islam).

Mohater,

Unitarians, Jehovah Witness', and Mormons are not Christians. They are not sects of Christianity. Actually, they are considered to be cults. To make the comparison: Your statement would be like me saying a group that denied Mohammad was a prophet and reject the Quran could be Muslim. Or perhaps claiming that I can make a pizza with just sauce and cheese (no bread/crust). :-)

A belief in Jesus' claims of deity is essential to Christianity.

This belief also makes His sacrifice on a cross to restore man's ability to have a relationship with God all the more amazing.
God in His amazing infinite love sent His son to a world that He knew would reject him so that they would at least have the opportunity to renew their relationship with Him!

Mohater,

Unitarians, Jehovah Witness', and Mormons are not Christians. They are not sects of Christianity. Actually, they are considered to be cults. To make the comparison: Your statement would be like me saying a group that denied Mohammad was a prophet and reject the Quran could be Muslim. Or perhaps claiming that I can make a pizza with just sauce and cheese (no bread/crust). :-)

A belief in Jesus' claims of deity is essential to Christianity.

This belief also makes His sacrifice on a cross to restore man's ability to have a relationship with God all the more amazing.
God in His amazing infinite love sent His son to a world that He knew would reject him so that they would at least have the opportunity to renew their relationship with Him!

I'm not Christian, thus I'm not in a position to dictate what is Christianity and what is not. I'm just spelling out reality as it is today for people who identify as Christians.

There are offshoots of Muslims who deviate sufficiently from the faith (B'hai, Ahmedi, Druze, etc) - but they do not typically refer to themselves as Muslims - they refer to themselves as the things I listed above.

I'm not Christian, thus I'm not in a position to dictate what is Christianity and what is not. I'm just spelling out reality as it is today for people who identify as Christians.

There are offshoots of Muslims who deviate sufficiently from the faith (B'hai, Ahmedi, Druze, etc) - but they do not typically refer to themselves as Muslims - they refer to themselves as the things I listed above.

No problem. I just wanted to point out the difference. Many of these groups claim to be Christian in an attempt to legitimize themselves. However, a claim does not, by itself, create a reality.

To steal from the Bard, "A cultist by any other name...."

Parafly:

I'm not saying CAIR is without sin, but on anti-cair's website - they refer to themselves and other blogs with similar interests. There's very little referenced outside of that (for sourcing information).

That doesn't raise red flags?

Parafly:

My first response is what are your resources that show protests against extremists?

Protest in Jordan:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,175150,00.html
Protests in Morocco
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2007/04/moroccans-protest-islamic-terrorism-in.html

There have also been similar forums/protests in other countries. While these probably are not to the scale you are looking for - in your eyes there are none. One can go on for days on this - but Dnish Dsouza said something very profound in an interview once (I'm paraphrasing):

I appreciate that. I'm not doubting that there are protests. But what bugs me is that it isn't broader, there isn't more condemnation. I'll grant you I'm viewing it through the prism of US journalism, and of course it makes better TV to show screaming muslims banging swords on their heads than to show them solemnly praying to the victims of 9/11.

My general impression though, and I would be incredibly glad to be wrong, is that the average muslim doesn't condemn the attacks. Here are some good polls done by Pew, http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=248

There is a lot of intersting facts in there, but I'll just point out a couple:

In Turkey, Pakistan, and Morocco, an average of 60% of people have an unfavorable view of Christians and an average of 80% have an unfavorable view of Jews.

In the United States, 22% have an unfavorable view of Muslims.

That says something to me right there about acceptance. We are three times more accepting of Muslims in the US, than vice versa.

Support for Suicide Bombings
In Jordan, 89% say it is at least rarely justified. Only 11% say it is isn't justified.
In Lebanon, 58%, and in Pakistan, 44% say it is at least rarely justified.

All of those are way too high, in my opinion.

Support for Osama Bin Laden
At least some:
Jordan, 80%, Pakistan, 62%

While generally the Pew survey indicated a reduction of support for terrorism among Muslims, it showed majorities or near majorities in several Muslim countries believing suicide bombings against Americans or other Westerners in Iraq to be justified.


The USA has forced people to either choose to be with the US or with whom the USA has dubbed terrorists. These people know the terrorists, it's normal to them. The USA is a foreign to them, and they, like everyone else, prefer what they know for certain.

Are you talking about within the United States? If so, I don't think that's true. I think that is your perception. Sure, there are some rednecks who say if you aren't for the war you are for the terrorists, but that's the low % outlier.

On to CAIR - you're simply wrong there. Your source of information for CAIR is the media, which does nothing but play CAIR in the worst possible ways. I know many directors of CAIR (each state has one where they have an office) and have attended lectures by the National Comm. Director of CAIR national (Ibrahim Hooper). They mostly take legit cases, but everyone now and then get a sour grape. They actually turn down a lot of cases (I know people who interned there and I can tell you stories you will laugh at when you hear what people tried to pass off as prejudicial). If you follow all the high profile cases that CAIR was attacked for (Charity cases, Samia Al-Arian, etc.) you'll see the vast majority of these people were either found not guilty, charges dismissed, or a hung jury. The problem is they are put under the spot light when the trial starts, but when nothing pans out, no one bothers saying "ok, we were wrong, sorry" (see Holy Land trial in Richardson TX that ended today). The admin took a firefight when arrests were made on a lot of these cases, and in the end they ended up being mostly bogus charges.

I'm not gonna say CAIR hasn't done any good. I'm sure they HAVE done some good things. But guess what, even a little bit of a scandel ruins your reputation and influence. If an anti-abortion group finds out their leader had an abortion, it takes the whole organization down.

If CAIR was truly concerned about improving American / Muslim relations (not that those should be seperated out anyways), then they should focus on denouncing Islam and lobbying in Washington with new ways to fight the media battle in the middle east for peace.

One of CAIR's goals is to enhance the American understanding of Muslims. Where has that happened? How are they pursuing this goal? They should be out there pushing for understanding, explaining text of the Koran and how it advocates peace.

I understand they want "fair trials", however, for example, defending Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman by saying he had an unfair trial was probably a bad PR move for CAIR to make, considering the ridiculous amount of evidence and facts surrounding him and his involvement in Al Quaeda. What they should have done is condemned him and made an example of him to other people who want to support terrorism.

I can understand they want to avoid a "witch hunt" but in the terrorist "witch hunt" they are losing sight of the fact that there are actual witches out there.

Parafly:

I'm not saying CAIR is without sin, but on anti-cair's website - they refer to themselves and other blogs with similar interests. There's very little referenced outside of that (for sourcing information).

That doesn't raise red flags?

Of coursre, I'll be the first to say that if you look for dirt you'll find it. But my point is there is just too much dirt.

I just think if CAIR wants to be taken seriously they need to re-analyze their point of view and do some better PR and marketing work. They need to do what they say they will do - inform Americans about Islam. They should be working to IMPROVE THE IMAGE of Muslims in America, and that they are not doing, to all honest American Muslims' disservice, I might add.

Of coursre, I'll be the first to say that if you look for dirt you'll find it. But my point is there is just too much dirt.

I just think if CAIR wants to be taken seriously they need to re-analyze their point of view and do some better PR and marketing work. They need to do what they say they will do - inform Americans about Islam. They should be working to IMPROVE THE IMAGE of Muslims in America, and that they are not doing, to all honest American Muslims' disservice, I might add.

Aside from anti-cair (and all their related sources) - what do you know about CAIR? Have you ever visited a CAIR office? Attended their seminars? Read their press releases and publications?

...

Are you talking about within the United States? If so, I don't think that's true. I think that is your perception. Sure, there are some rednecks who say if you aren't for the war you are for the terrorists, but that's the low % outlier.



I said my quote was from an interview - and it was about people outside of the USA.

Anyway Para - you're deviating from the topic. The thread is about Islam, not Muslims.

I said my quote was from an interview - and it was about people outside of the USA.

Anyway Para - you're deviating from the topic. The thread is about Islam, not Muslims.

That's a fine distinction, like saying a topic is about Christianity, not Christians.

Didn't mean to :threadj: if I was. My questions are more about the sociology of Muslims and less about the history / ideas of Islam. Although both are interesting to me.

Aside from anti-cair (and all their related sources) - what do you know about CAIR? Have you ever visited a CAIR office? Attended their seminars? Read their press releases and publications?

Admittedly not much else beyond what I have read in the media and also what I have read on the CAIR website.

mammothwolly, in you random musings I think you posed a very significant and timely question that deserves some serious consideration. You asked: How does one approach Islamic faith? Please allow me to re-define this question a bit more precisely so that we can try to address it with some clarity.

How does an average Westerner approach Islam? Not as a scholarly undertaking, nor as a skeptic, but simply as a curious individual interested in understanding the teachings of Islam.
Have I captured the essential spirit of your question? If so, I submit to you the follow premise:


An average Westerner does not understand Arabic -- the language of the original text -- and must, therefore, rely on secondary source such as translations and commentary that are readily available. The vast vast majority of Islamic literature is not in English language and even less of it is on the WWW. So we're probably looking at one-book-per-million ratio between what is available to us and the totality of literature on Islam.
Since this is not a scholarly endeavor, we accept the authority of sources on face value. That is to say, for example, we do not question whether or not Quran has been preserved word-for-word since the time of Muhammad. We accept the Muslim's claim that it has been and treat it as such. Of course, we can ask on what basis Muslims make this claim but we do not dig into those details because the point is to understand Islam, and not research the authority of individual sources. That's a topic which requires a scholarly rigor which we do not have (no one can research a topic in any field if only a millionth of the previous literature is available to him).
We go in a "breadth-first" fashion. That is to say that we focus our attention on the totality of teachings of Islam first, and after grasping the "big picture" we dig into the details of individual matters of jurisprudence and such.


Does this sound like a fair premise for discussion? I'm sorry if I'm formalizing this a bit too much but I want to be sure we're on the same page.

[LIST]
An average Westerner does not understand Arabic -- the language of the original text -- and must, therefore, rely on secondary source such as translations and commentary that are readily available.

I would add that the original language that Christian and Jewish sacred texts were written in also require translation, which is itself a significant source of debate

Quran is in Arabic, and there are many institutions that exist to ensure the Quran they have used is the same as it was over 1400 years ago. Such things are EXTENSIVELY studied in Islamic countries (note: Not every Islamic country is like Saudi, but believe it or not, they have an institution dedicated to the preservation of the Quran in Saudi).Note to sleepy self: Koran is in Arabic, not Persian, mofo! II thought it was generally accepted in academic circles that the Koran has been corrupted. I've heard the numbers like 18% changed. I just pulled up a wikipedia article about it

A minority on people who study the material note that something is wrong with the Koran:

In 1972, during the restoration of the Great Mosque of San'a, in Yemen, laborers stumbled upon a "paper grave" containing tens of thousands of fragments of parchment on which verses of the Qur'an were written. Some of these fragments were believed to be the oldest Qur'anic texts yet found.

The European scholar Gerd R. Puin has studied these fragments and published some preliminary findings:

"My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants. The Qur’an claims for itself that it is ‘mubeen,’ or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn’t make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur’anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur’an is not comprehensible, if it can’t even be understood in Arabic, then it’s not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur’an claims repeatedly to be clear but is not—there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on.”
The variations from the received text that he found seemed to match minor variations in sequence reported by some Islamic scholars, in their descriptions of the variant Qur'ans once held by Abdallah Ibn Masud, Ubay Ibn Ka'b, and Ali, and suppressed by Uthman's order.

Rejecting this, the majority believe

Such an approach to the Qur'an is generally not accepted as true by western scholars. Professor A. Jones (from Oxford) asserts that such views are a product of prejudice and speculation.

But the traditionalists believe:

These scholars point to many characteristics of the Qur'an — the repetitions, the scientific mentions, the arbitrary order, the mixture of styles and genres — as indicative of a human collection process that was extremely respectful of a miscellaneous collection of original texts.
This seems to suggest to me that humans had a large part of the formation of the Koran, and that it might even have been altered by them as time went along. This contrasts with how I interpreted your characterization of the process of the creation of the Koran. Am I missing something?


----------------------

The Quran in English is not the "Devil" - it is a translation and only that. You're being silly with all your ramblings about visiting a Mosque having such barriers to enter. Many have open houses, outreach offices, etc. Do you dress immodestly to your religious institution? Do you behave in an improper way when there? The movements you describe are attributed to the formal prayer - which you (as a visitor) would not be obliged to partake in since you're not Muslim.Neo asked the question I was asking, only more clearly. Answer his question, and you'll have answered mine here, what a slickdeal, eh? Sorry to post while sleepy. :)




What is your source of this information on Islam?I thought that this was what this thread was about. I am reflecting on things I have learned from non-Muslims in my past, books I have read, etc...Have you read the Old Testament and related stories in the new Testament?Yes.There's plenty to connect that God punished those who rejected him. This is not something unique to Islam. How does Christianity NOT teach an authoritarian view of God? That God has prescribed what is "good" and forbidden what is "evil" (and in all this said his mercy is endless).That doesn't exactly answer my question, you're taking my premise that God is not authoritarian, and inverting it to question Christian teachings. I certainly wasn't trying to ask you about Christian teachings.

Let me try to ask this question a different way. What I want to know is whether Islam has the concept of God as being solely a distant, authoritarian, rule setting monarch/judge. In order for me to frame this question, I am comparing it to Christian belief which sees this as one aspect to His persona (if I can use that word), as you have noted from your references to the old/new testaments. However Christianity is different from Judaism and Islam (or so I think, help a brother out!) in that it sees another aspect of God which is his existing in perpetual community (the Trinity), and therefore a different aspect of God is his relational nature. In Christianity, God is not merely a distant monarch, but is also constantly striving to build relationship, as His nature is relational. He exists in a 3 Person (triune) relationship, and wants us to join in relationship. Again, my question is whether Islam has such a teaching; am I correct that Islam does not focus on the fact that the perfection of God includes the aspect of His relationality? Also, does anything in the Koran speak against such a concept of God?

[QUOTE=mohater;8417523]A common prayer in Arabic is May God make our most blessed day the day we see him (Day of Reckoning). The goal is always to become "close" to God.
I think you're using a different aspect of the word "close" here. I'm taking about God having in His nature a relationship building aspect, in Himself, in human's life here, in human's afterlife, etc., constantly trying to build and rebuild relationship(="being close"). You're talking about becoming "like" (="close to") God's just, righteous nature. I think....

Please allow me to re-define this question a bit more precisely so that we can try to address it with some clarity.

There were many things wrong with that post; I think I was just too sleepy when I posted it. Sigh. Thank you for clarifying what I was asking.

Neo asked the question I was asking, only more clearly. Answer his question, and you'll have answered mine here, what a slickdeal, eh? Sorry to post while sleepy. :)I thought that this was what this thread was about. I am reflecting on things I have learned from non-Muslims in my past, books I have read, etc...Yes.That doesn't exactly answer my question, you're taking my premise that God is not authoritarian, and inverting it to question Christian teachings. I certainly wasn't trying to ask you about Christian teachings.

Let me try to ask this question a different way. What I want to know is whether Islam has the concept of God as being solely a distant, authoritarian, rule setting monarch/judge. In order for me to frame this question, I am comparing it to Christian belief which sees this as one aspect to His persona (if I can use that word), as you have noted from your references to the old/new testaments. However Christianity is different from Judaism and Islam (or so I think, help a brother out!) in that it sees another aspect of God which is his existing in perpetual community (the Trinity), and therefore a different aspect of God is his relational nature. In Christianity, God is not merely a distant monarch, but is also constantly striving to build relationship, as His nature is relational. He exists in a 3 Person (triune) relationship, and wants us to join in relationship. Again, my question is whether Islam has such a teaching; am I correct that Islam does not focus on the fact that the perfection of God includes the aspect of His relationality? Also, does anything in the Koran speak against such a concept of God?


The Quran does not declare a "concept" of God. However, Quran indicates 99 characteristics of God, including Just, Merciful, Beneficient. Here is a good source of the explanation of the meanings of Allah's names/characteristics: Link (http://www.godnames.org/godnames.php?f=godnames_01_08).

I do not follow your question regarding relationship. We request God for assistance, bow down to Him, pray to Him, fast for Him, a lot of things done to feel close to Him.

By the way, can you please PM a reply to a quick question of mine: Which part of the triune god wants us to join in a relationship, the father, the son, or the holy spirit?

I think you're using a different aspect of the word "close" here. I'm taking about God having in His nature a relationship building aspect, in Himself, in human's life here, in human's afterlife, etc., constantly trying to build and rebuild relationship(="being close"). You're talking about becoming "like" (="close to") God's just, righteous nature. I think....


I believe you didnt get the correct impression. Mohater meant being "close" to God in the literal sense, in the afterlife. Acts of Muslims such as Salaah, Fasting, Hajj apart from having a practical purpose also serves to bring one close to God in this life.

The Quran does not declare a "concept" of God.I hope you'll excuse my English. I'm looking for the idea of God as portrayed in the Koran, the worldview portrayed in the religion, whatever you want to call it. However, Quran indicates 99 characteristics of God, including Just, Merciful, Beneficient. Sure, "characteristics" will do.

I do not follow your question regarding relationship. We request God for assistance, bow down to Him, pray to Him, fast for Him, a lot of things done to feel close to Him.


Sigh, I'm not getting my question across apparently. Let me try again.

Christian God = family; divine attribute (in view) = relationship.
Christian and Islamic God = monarch; divine attribute (in view) = judge

Christian God wants people to come over to his house, eat dinner with Him, stop attacking Him, and sacrifices of Himself for us.

By the way, can you please PM a reply to a quick question of mine: Which part of the triune god wants us to join in a relationship, the father, the son, or the holy spirit?

I don't need to PM, the entire triune God wants this to happen, all 3, because they all have the same will. They're only one God, but God is intrinsically relational.

Both religions (I think, trying to get clarification) teach people to sacrifice for God, suffer for Him, worship Him, fast for Him, etc. Does Islam teach that God wants to invite us over to His house, eat with us, sacrifice for us, spend time alone with us, and build relationship with us? Or is that aspect missing? Or is that aspect denounced?

IOW, Is God in a galaxy far far away or is He more personable and available? Does one go to the movies with God? Does one mow the lawn with God? Does one plead to God only as a judge, or also speak to God as a homie?

Is it advised, recommended, or sinful to say "Yo yo yo God, whassup, yo dawg I gots me a big ole mofo trying to slap myse back side to the side, what a mofo. Hey dawg, tkx for the memories, hey yo this food is hot, like that fine creature whose servin' me. Hey God, whaddya you think, should I chilax wit' 'er? She looks mighty fine." (Relational)

Or is it only appropriate to say "Oh far away God, I've been trying to be good, help me to become more good, and please forgive me for any mistakes. I've been fasting to remind myself of your divine attributes and rules. Thanks for sending Mohammed (pbuh) as your messenger, so I would know about your demands and rules, so I could live a life conforming to your nature." (Far away monarch)

Not every female is open to flirting. Along those lines, expanding a joke after initially being told off is usually not a good idea.Flirting huh?
I went back and reviewed the incident, and while there may have been an off-color remark, I still find it mostly inoffensive considering I prefaced it with a disclaimer to ward off any misunderstanding.
The analogy between stripping to your skivies in western culture being comparable to removing a Burka in Islamic culture appeared to have been dead on - especially in light of her reaction.

rhark137 is driving me crazy. I wanna get her to slip outta her Burqa (scarf) IMMEDIATELY Darling, yer mind is a treasure. I get the picture the Islamic equivalence of stripping to your underthings in Western Culture is removing the head gear and slipping into a comfortable pair of cargo shorts to the knees and a blousy shirt with short sleeves. As a child of the 50's & 60's, this is so far from MY understanding of modesty as to be almost incomprehensible, but I can understand the motivations. Thank you!I MEANT it, her exposition really made me see the Burka in a vastly different way than I had seen it before. I had no idea it was any more important than a scarf or headcover in western culture - well, maybe a bit more important - but I never had any idea, until rhark317's response, that is was so VERY different.
I still feel, after re-reading the exchange, she both over-reacted and took offense where none was intended.
And why do you want me out of my "berka"? You really sound like a TRUE BIGOT!!!!
If you dont agree with my faith than Fine- dont criticize it! Who are you to criticize anothers beliefs? huh?
EVERYONE on this forum has been just WONDERFUL with how they ask questions- what is the hostility for? Where is your agression coming from? Why are you sick of me?
Why do you call me judgemental when YOU ARE THE ONE JUDGING!!- YOU ASSUMED I WEAR A SCARF- I DONT WEAR A SCARF AND YOU ARE A BIGOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND I AM AMERICAN- NO NOT BY BEING BORN HERE- MY BLOOD, MY GENES!
SHAME ON YOU.
Why dont you leave this space for people who want to ask questions not criticize.Perhaps I just "don't get it", but it appears to me I DO "get it" and maintained throughout I understood her position AND thanked her for opening my horizons a bit.

A real shame she ended up leaving and not continuing to help clarify many of these issues from a woman's perspective.
Perhaps, if you still maintain contact with rhawk317, you could invite her back into this thread to contribute even more of her unique perspective.

Mammoth - you're mixing concepts.

One aspect of Christianity (not universally accepted) is that God is EVERYWHERE, and in EVERYTHING. While under Islam, it is understood God encompasses the attributes of infinity, and is omnipresent not bound by *living* limitations (time, space, mass, speed, etc.).

You're also bringing up another "pop" culture type issue: God doesn't care how you speak to him or how you dress. While it's widely accepted (among the "big" three religions) that one can pray to God in any language - there *should* be some type of humble approach to prayer. If you want to take examples from anyone in the Bible, Torah, or Quran - when the people (Prophets and otherwise mentioned) asked God for help, they would come in a humble fashion, in a state of purity (mentally and physically), and ask for things in a proper manner. These are our examples that we are supposed to follow. It's not sinful to get ghetto fabulous when praying, but is being humble and showing humility? (AY GOD, WHAT YOU THINK YO, SHOULD I HIT THAT!?!?!?!??)

All three religions accept the relationship with God as personal to the individual, where the relationship must be maintained (how do you maintain the relationship? By following God's order, it's really that simple).

Do Muslims see "God" and "Allah" as being interchangeable and the same thing?

Do Muslims see "God" and "Allah" as being interchangeable and the same thing?

In a nut shell - yes.

"I'm Allah In a Nutshell!" :lol:

Thanks for the info, I realized I was just assuming this was the case.

The nutshell part was because if you ask a Jew is God = YAHWEH they'd say the same thing. There are definitions intrinsic to Yahweh (or Allah) that do not exist in the English language.

Sultan, why does Islam call to treat women like 2nd class citizens?

Thanks for this thread, mohater. It's been a great read.

I was wondering if you, or anyone, could explain the concept of sin to me in Islam. Specifically, what constitutes a sin, and can anyone live a life without sin? If a sinful life is unavoidable, how and when does God forgive?

Thanks for this thread, mohater. It's been a great read.

I was wondering if you, or anyone, could explain the concept of sin to me in Islam. Specifically, what constitutes a sin, and can anyone live a life without sin? If a sinful life is unavoidable, how and when does God forgive?

It's the same concept as Christianity - stop sinning and repent. No one can live without sin (only those with divine inspririation can be w/o mistakes), but as mentioned in another post there are lesser sins and greater sins. There are many verses in the Quran that all sins are forgivable except disbelief, also that God is pleased with his servants who repent.

Also what constitutes a sin is the same, what God has forbidden.

Sultan, why does Islam call to treat women like 2nd class citizens?

Please be specific here - where does Islam call to treat women like 2nd class citizens?

Please be specific here - where does Islam call to treat women like 2nd class citizens?

Stop playing dumb, you damn well know women are 2nd class citizens in Islam, but since you want proof, here are some fun facts from Wikipedia.



Financial matters

Islam gives women the right to own, which entitles them to have personal possessions. While women have fewer financial obligations than men, some of their financial rights are limited. Women's share of inheritance, as outlined in the Qur'an, is typically less than that of men. Women's right to work is also disputed.

[edit] Financial obligations

A woman, when compared with her husband, is far less burdened with any claims on her possessions. Her possessions before marriage do not transfer to her husband and she is encouraged to keep her maiden name. She has no obligation to spend on her family out of such properties or out of her income after marriage. A woman also receives a mahr (dowry), which is given to her by her husband at the time of marriage.[14] Women, unlike men, also have the right to be supported financially.[2][15]

[edit] Inheritance

Main article: Islamic inheritance jurisprudence#Women and inheritance

In Islam, women are entitled the right of inheritance,[Qur'an 4:7] but often a woman's share of inheritance is less than that of a man's. In general circumstances, Islam allows females half the inheritance share available to males who have the same degree of relation to the deceased.[16] Some argue that this difference derives from men's obligation to support their wives financially, while the women's share would be entirely at her own disposal.[1]

In most Muslim nations, the law of the state concerning inheritance is in accordance with this law.[citation needed]

The Qur'an guarantees women the right to inherit a proportion of their father's estate. A widowed woman inherits a portion of her husband's estate.

[edit] Employment

Women are allowed to work in Islam, subject to certain conditions, and even recommended to do so should they be in financial need.[17] This is supported by the Quranic example of two female shepherds ([Qur'an 28:23]).[17] Islam recognizes that the society needs women to work for the sake of development. In general, women's right to work is subject to certain conditions:[17]

* The work should not require the woman to violate Islamic law (eg. serving alcohol), and be mindful of the woman's safety.
* If the work requires the woman to leave her home, she must maintain her modesty.
* Her work should not affect more important commitments, such as those towards her family.

Furthermore, it is the responsibility of the Muslim community to organize work for women, so that can do so in a Muslim atmosphere, where her rights are respected.[17]

However, the employment of women varies over fields in Islamic law. Whereas women may seek medical treatment from men it is preferred that they do so from female physicians. It is also preferred that female schools, colleges, sports centers and ministries be staffed by women rather than men. On the contrary, there are disagreements between Islamic schools of thought about whether women should be able to hold the position of judge in a court. Shafi`ites claim that women may hold no judicial office, while Hanafites allow women to act as judges in civil cases only, not criminal ones. These interpretations are based on the above quoted Medinan sura (verse) [Qur'an 4:34].[18]

Even when women have the right to work and are educated, women's job opportunities may in practice be unequal to those of men, like they are in any modern society. In Egypt for example, women have limited opportunities to work in the private sector because women are still expected to put their role in the family first, which causes men to be seen as more reliable in the long term.[19] Patterns of women's employment vary throughout the Muslim world: as of 2005, 16% of Pakistani women were "economically active" (either employed, or unemployed but available to furnish labor), whereas 52% of Indonesian women were.[20].

[edit] Legal and criminal matters

The status of women's testimony in Islam is disputed. Some jurists have held that certain types testimony by women will not be accepted.[21]. In other cases, the testimony of two women can equal that of one man.[21][Qur'an 2:282][22] The reason for this disparity has been explained in various manners, including women's lack of intelligence,[23] women's temperament and sphere of interest,[24] and sparing women from the burden of testifying.[25] In other areas, women's testimony may be accepted on an equal basis with men's.[21][26]

Commentators on the status of women in Islam have often focused on disparities in diyyat, the fines paid by killers to victims' next of kin after either intentional or unintentional homicide,[27] between men and women. Diyya has existed in Arabia since pre-Islamic times.[28][29] While the practice of diyya was affirmed by Muhammed,[29] Islam does not prescribe any specific amount for diyyat nor does it require discrimination between men and women;[27] the Qur'an has left open its quantity, nature, and other related affairs to be defined by social custom and tradition.[27] Traditionally, however, diyya for a women is half that of a man;[30][31] this is currently codified in the laws of Muslim-majority countries such as Saudi Arabia,[32] Iran,[33] and Pakistan.[34]

Islamic criminal jurisprudence does not discriminate between genders in punishments for crimes.[citation needed] In case of sexual crimes such as zina (fornication), however, women may be found guilty more easily than men, because of the visible evidence of pregnancy; without a pregancy, four witnesses are required to file a zina case.[35]

The difficulty of prosecuting rapists and the possibility of prosecution for women who allege rape has been of special interest to activists for Muslim women's rights.[36] The overwhelming majority of Muslim scholars believe that there is no punishment for a woman coerced into having sex.[37] According to a Sunni hadith, the punishment for committing rape is death, there is no sin on the victim, nor is there any worldly punishment ascribed to her.[38] However, the stringent requirements for proof of rape under some interpretations of Islamic law, combined with cultural attitudes regarding rape in some parts of the Muslim world, result in few rape cases being reported; even the cases brought forward typically result in minimal punishment for offenders or severe punishment for victims.[39] It can be difficult to seek punishment against rapists, because a zina case cannot be brought without four witnesses, even for rape cases. Some scholars, however, treat rape instead as hiraba (disorder in the land),[40], which does not require four witnesses. The form of punishment and interpretation of Islamic law in this case is highly dependent on the legislation of the nation in question, and/or of the judge.

So-called honor killings (murders, nearly exclusively of women, of persons who are perceived as having brought dishonor to their families) are often identified with Islam, though they predate the introduction of Islam into Arabia and are non-Quranic.[41] However, honor killings are sanctioned in sharia texts, which have influenced modern penal codes in which honor killing is legal or lightly punished.[41] Honor killing is forbidden in mainstream modern interpretations of Islam,[citation needed] and many Muslim scholars and commentators say that honor killings are a cultural practice which is neither exclusive to, nor universal within, the Islamic world.[42][43] However, the practice is strongly associated with the Arabic-, Turkish-, and Urdu-speaking parts of the Muslim world, being most common within Muslim communities around the Mediterranean.[citation needed] Furthermore, most cases involving the practice in non-Muslim areas involve people from Muslim-majority countries.[44][45]

The Quran condemns infanticide,[Qur'an 17:31] including female infanticide.[13]


Quite frankly I should highlight the entire article as there are MANY examples of women being treated as second class citizens... But Mohater, dont play dumb and pretend women are equal in the world of Islam, because that is a flat out LIE, and you know it, and it only makes you look like a liar when you pretend not to...

It's the same concept as Christianity - stop sinning and repent. No one can live without sin (only those with divine inspririation can be w/o mistakes), but as mentioned in another post there are lesser sins and greater sins. There are many verses in the Quran that all sins are forgivable except disbelief, also that God is pleased with his servants who repent.

Also what constitutes a sin is the same, what God has forbidden.



Thanks. What about salvation? Is it something that can be lost, or is it a "once saved, always saved" idea found in some denominations of Christianity?

Please be specific here - where does Islam call to treat women like 2nd class citizens?

Caliph 'Amru Bin al-'Aas said:

"Women are toys, so choose." (Kanz-el-'Ummal, Vol. 21, Hadith No. 919)

"One woman, of 99 women, is in heaven, and the rest of them are in Fire." Kanzu al-`ummal, 22:10.

"But for the woman, man could have entered paradise." Kanzu al-`ummal

"A believing woman is the same among women as a white-footed raven among the ravens. Fire has been created for the senseless, and women are the most senseless of all." Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Musnad (Cairo, n.d.), 4:197,205. Kanzu al-`ummal, 22:11.

There are so many others too....

If Allah is all powerful, can he make a rock so large that he himself can't lift it?


I always wondered about that.......

Stop playing dumb, you damn well know women are 2nd class citizens in Islam, but since you want proof, here are some fun facts from Wikipedia.



Quite frankly I should highlight the entire article as there are MANY examples of women being treated as second class citizens... But Mohater, dont play dumb and pretend women are equal in the world of Islam, because that is a flat out LIE, and you know it, and it only makes you look like a liar when you pretend not to...


Hmm interesting rmagiera..It seems to me like you are confusing radical laws of some countries based on their interpretation of Islam with the generally accepted values of Islam.

Woman in Islam is treated equally as the men, yes there are some men made laws that claim their origin is from Quran, but most disagree with their interpretation of it.

Also do not forget that, tribal mentality is very well established in the 3rd World countries and these things takes a looooooooooong time to catch up with modern age. And usually they are kept alive under the false pretence that "it is part of the religion".

For example, most honor killings in Turkey is done in SE, where Kurdish tribal mentality dictates them. I have to agree in the past the penal system usually gave lighter sentences but this has changed dramatically along the lines of EU accession reforms.

Here is an example of womans rights to vote and stand for election is Muslims counties (see the link for the whole list)

A World Chronology of the Recognition of Women's Rights to Vote and to Stand for Election

1918 Kyrgyzstan
1920 Albania
1921 Azerbaijan
1924 Kazakhstan, Tajikistan
1927 Turkmenistan
1930 Turkey

And an example of a "very" European country

1971 - Switzerland

Here is the link (http://www.ipu.org/wmn-e/suffrage.htm)

Off topic but why are you so angry?

If Allah is all powerful, can he make a rock so large that he himself can't lift it?

I always wondered about that.......

classic logical fopaw, but hope this explanation helps.

In short, the answer is no. Not because there is a flaw in Him, but because he is the embodiment of perfection. There are many things that God "can't" do, but they are all expressions of his perfection and Holiness, not flaws in his omnipotency. For instance, God cannot lie. He is the perfect embodiment of Truth. If he could lie, then his perfection would be flawed. However, in reality God is much more than our minds can contain or grasp so I'm sure my feeble attempt doesn't even begin to explain Him....

Hmm interesting rmagiera..It seems to me like you are confusing radical laws of some countries based on their interpretation of Islam with the generally accepted values of Islam.

Woman in Islam is treated equally as the men, yes there are some men made laws that claim their origin is from Quran, but most disagree with their interpretation of it.

Also do not forget that, tribal mentality is very well established in the 3rd World countries and these things takes a looooooooooong time to catch up with modern age. And usually they are kept alive under the false pretence that "it is part of the religion".

For example, most honor killings in Turkey is done in SE, where Kurdish tribal mentality dictates them. I have to agree in the past the penal system usually gave lighter sentences but this has changed dramatically along the lines of EU accession reforms.

Here is an example of womans rights to vote and stand for election is Muslims counties (see the link for the whole list)

A World Chronology of the Recognition of Women's Rights to Vote and to Stand for Election

1918 Kyrgyzstan
1920 Albania
1921 Azerbaijan
1924 Kazakhstan, Tajikistan
1927 Turkmenistan
1930 Turkey

And an example of a "very" European country

1971 - Switzerland

Here is the link (http://www.ipu.org/wmn-e/suffrage.htm)

Off topic but why are you so angry?

hmmmmm how about Saudi Arabia, the true Muslim capital? Oh wait, they still can't...nevermind :sadwalk:

Thanks. What about salvation? Is it something that can be lost, or is it a "once saved, always saved" idea found in some denominations of Christianity?

Hi Jhaan
In my learnings from my readings, salvation can always be achieved even if you are a non-believer. There is no once saved always saved idea, you actually have to work for salvation by doing good deeds on Earth. God "basicall" dictates us that we have a reference guide in Quran but it is up to the human to walk the path to salvation using the brain God gave us.

So yes just because you say you are a Muslim does not mean you wont go to hell. Also declaring that you are a Christian does not mean you will go to hell as well. Eveyone gets judged by their own merits.

And about sin, yes I believe all you have to do for erasing your sin is to ask for it. God can read us much better then anything else and will know the truth.

And no nobody is above Sin, everyone one of us is a human and thus prone to sin even the prophets.

hmmmmm how about Saudi Arabia, the true Muslim capital? Oh wait, they still can't...nevermind :sadwalk:

True Muslim capital. Wov I need to really start watching the news more closely :lmao:

Who died and made them the KING? :confused:

And no nobody is above Sin, everyone one of us is a human and thus prone to sin even the prophets.


Thanks vangolu.

This sounds like an Original Sin concept. What's Islam's take (interpretation) of The Fall? Is the Adam & Eve story pretty identical?

Who died and made them the KING? :confused:

Mohammed? :dontknow:

Mohammed? :dontknow:

Yeah I dont think so...Maybe reading about the Saud tribe is in order?

However I will agree that if I was a Muslim woman, I wouldnt wanna be near Saudi Arabia. But then does person know any different then what has been thought to him\her? So maybe if I was born there, I wouldnt know any better therefore I would say this is great.

Stop playing dumb, you damn well know women are 2nd class citizens in Islam, but since you want proof, here are some fun facts from Wikipedia.



Quite frankly I should highlight the entire article as there are MANY examples of women being treated as second class citizens... But Mohater, dont play dumb and pretend women are equal in the world of Islam, because that is a flat out LIE, and you know it, and it only makes you look like a liar when you pretend not to...

Vangolu partially answered you but I'll expand specifically on the points you highlight:

Inheritence (already covered earlier): Under Islamic rules, women do not bear financial burden like their male counterparts (brother, spouse, etc.). The men have an obligation to take care of their women - hence that rule. The same concept exists in Judaic law, but the difference is it simply says that if there's a man in the relationship, he gets inheritance (nothing specific as to amount/share).

As for work, can you please cite any resource in any religious text that says you can break the rules of your faith to work? I don't recall such exceptions that exist anywhere. Next, it is up to the couple to decide work/school for their relationship. Islam (like traditional Judaism/Christianity) specify that a wife's first duty it to her husband (no - not necessarily cooking, cleaning, etc. - namely to be his mate and partner). The couple needs to work out how they will manage their relationship. As to the respective laws in specific country - most of these have nothing to do with Islam (i.e. restricting women from certain normal positions) and more to do with the respective groups in power. The same wiki cites more than half of Indonesian women working (fairly high number for any modern country).

Finally - the testimony of women is not disputed. The only time two women are needed as 1 witness is from a contract/tort stand point. If something is to be agreed upon in a public setting - the Quran stipulates two women make the place of one witness. With respect to witness of crime - a women's testimony is considered the same as a man. The thing about four witnesses is unique only to allegations about adultery/forniacation. If a women cites rape, four witnesses are not needed. What goes on in the Indian sub-continent is more of a tribal thing than a religious one (they still burn widows in tribal India). It also occur in Africa, regardless of which religion people attribute themselves to.

I'll ignore your personal attack and calling me out on lying before I even replied.

If Allah is all powerful, can he make a rock so large that he himself can't lift it?


I always wondered about that.......

God is not contained by the limitations of man - not bound of time, space, mass, strength, etc.

The argument is flawed.

Thanks vangolu.

This sounds like an Original Sin concept. What's Islam's take (interpretation) of The Fall? Is the Adam & Eve story pretty identical?

No - original sin does not exist in Islam. Eve is not blamed for causing the downfall from the "Garden".

Caliph 'Amru Bin al-'Aas said:

"Women are toys, so choose." (Kanz-el-'Ummal, Vol. 21, Hadith No. 919)

"One woman, of 99 women, is in heaven, and the rest of them are in Fire." Kanzu al-`ummal, 22:10.

"But for the woman, man could have entered paradise." Kanzu al-`ummal

"A believing woman is the same among women as a white-footed raven among the ravens. Fire has been created for the senseless, and women are the most senseless of all." Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Musnad (Cairo, n.d.), 4:197,205. Kanzu al-`ummal, 22:11.

There are so many others too....

What is your source for these - I have never seen them before.

Mohammed? :dontknow:

Islam began in the area of Saudi Arabia - but aside from the site of the Holy Cities, the connection to the land there is otherwise non-existent. I can mention plenty of asinine laws that exist in Europe, Russia, India, etc. that are backwards and ensure for a closed society. Many Saudis oppose how the ruler of their country runs things, and many say they are unIslamic. I really don't understand your logic there...

Caliph 'Amru Bin al-'Aas said:

"Women are toys, so choose." (Kanz-el-'Ummal, Vol. 21, Hadith No. 919)

"One woman, of 99 women, is in heaven, and the rest of them are in Fire." Kanzu al-`ummal, 22:10.

"But for the woman, man could have entered paradise." Kanzu al-`ummal

"A believing woman is the same among women as a white-footed raven among the ravens. Fire has been created for the senseless, and women are the most senseless of all." Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Musnad (Cairo, n.d.), 4:197,205. Kanzu al-`ummal, 22:11.

There are so many others too....

Who the heck are these people and why would I want to believe them when I can listen to the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh)

According to the traditions of the Prophet Mohammed:

"Heaven is under the feet of mothers" (3).
"The good among you are those that are most useful to their families, and amongst you I am the most useful to my family. Those who are magnanimous hold women high, treat them with respect. Only those who are lowly treat them harshly and belittle them" (4).
"The world is material, but the most useful of worldly material is a pure and good woman" (5).
"It is just that, "Women are half of men." (6)

Cami' S: Vol.1, P: 122
Cami' S: Vol.2, P: 9
Cami' S: Vol.2, P: 14
Cami' S: Vol.1, P: 85


I would strongly suggest you to read this link (http://www.mevlana.net/celebi/views_on_women.htm)

Or this (http://www.mevlana.net/index.htm)one for more general world views

No - original sin does not exist in Islam. Eve is not blamed for causing the downfall from the "Garden".



Eve is not blamed in Christianity, either. Perhaps I need your definition of Original Sin. It sounds like yours and mine are different.

Who the heck are these people and why would I want to believe them when I can listen to the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh)

Some of them (such as Amru Bin Al-As) were disciples of Mohammed.

But as for Mohammed, he did say similar things, for example:

"The woman is a toy, whoever takes her let him care for her (or do not lose her)." (Ahmad Zaky Tuffaha, Al-Mar'ah wal- Islam [Dar al-Kitab al-Lubnani, Beirut, first edition, 1985], p. 180)

Here's another:

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." (Book #6, Hadith #301)

And Finally my personal favorite:

The Prophet said, "If a man Invites his wife to sleep with him and she refuses to come to him, then the angels send their curses on her till morning." :evillaf: :slap: [reference] (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.121)

However, I will say that I have come across some positive things Mohammed said regarding women (such as from your links), and true we must always take the culture of the time into context. However, there are also many instances where women are lumped in with worldly possessions such as cattle, gold & horses (Sura 3:14 for example).

In addition, it doesn't look like Mohammed practiced what he preached. Not only was he given special permissions (Sura 33:50) to marry as many wives as he wanted, but he also encouraged and had intimacy with many of his captive slaves. Most alarming of all, it is recorded that he beat his 9-year old child bride, Aisha.

"He [Muhammad] struck me [Aisha] on the chest which caused me pain." [Here's the reference from the Hadith] (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/004.smt.html#004.2127)

Also check out:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/women.htm

Towards the bottom of this following link, there is some VERY disturbing stuff from the Hadith regarding Mohammed.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/women_top_ten.htm

Seems kinda strict........


Mohammed, along with Buraq and Gabriel, visit Hell, and see a demon punishing "shameless women" who had exposed their hair to strangers. For this crime of inciting lust in men, the women are strung up by their hair and burned for eternity.


http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/burning.jpg





And why does Mohammed's steed Buraq, have a human face?



http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/hb_1974.294.2.jpg

Really strict.........



Next, Mohammed sees women strung up by hooks thrust through their tongues by a green demon. Their crimes were to "mock" their husbands and to leave their homes without permission. Persian, 15th century



http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/tongues.jpg


Further on, Mohammed sees a red demon that is torturing women by hanging them up by hooks through their breasts, as they are engulfed in flames. The women are being punished for giving birth to illegitimate children whom they falsely claimed were fathered by their husbands. Persian, 15th century.

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/hooked.jpg

And why does Mohammed's steed Buraq, have a human face?


Maybe this is why???

'Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, said, "Nothing was more beloved to the Messenger of Allah than women, except horses,"

http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=3&tid=7855

Did anyone else notice the prescence of blonde women in those paintings. Where in the heck did they come from?

Elmer: Those pictures your posting not universally accepted as acceptable in Islam. Often groups who became Muslim incorporated their culture into Islam, and those things were not always compilable with teachings of Islam.

Aside from that - most of these paintings come from places where Islam entered well after Muhammad's (PBUH) death. They are not from the people who were around during his life.

If you have a specific question - do ask. Otherwise please refrain from posting here, I tried very hard to keep this thread clean.

Superdan:

A lot of the sources you are citing are narrations that are considered weak in Islam and/or you are using translations that are not accepted. It's not worldly possession, it's desires of this life. Given the nature of the Hadith (if they explained specific things about the religion or it was just to cite another story of the Prophet (PBUH) dictated the amount of authentication given to it). Not all hadith are given the same weight in application to life. They have an entire field to the study of Hadith and narration - and simply finding one does not authenticate it as valid.

I'm not going to bother responding to the answering Islam site. Someone already does that with (http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm) and often answers 1:1 for things posed in your source. If YOU have a question please ask. It's of no benefit if you just copy and paste things that you found online as a means to ask questions.

Just to add on to Mohater,

Superdan do not forget that people (no matter where or which religion) always used religion as a means to control people and do their will.

I will give you a simple story.

When I was a kid people always as said it was a hadith that if you pee under a fig tree, genies would hit you while you are asleep.

Later on I learned from a news columnist who was also a historian, find out the root of this "Hadith"

It turns out, once (in 14th Century) there was a Hodja who was very popular and had a large audidence. He was also wealthy and owned plantations. And yes he was growing figs.The problem was that the road to the farms passed through these plantations. And people would stop by in the forest and did their "natural" business on the way to or back from work. So the word spread that Hodja's figs were tainted.

So of course the shrewd merchant, the Hodja, decided to make up a Hadith to stop people from doing their "natural" business and hence Hodja can continue making money.


Hope you can see my perspective when I see so called "Haddiths" like these

I have a great amount of respect for the Islamic religion. And for people can worship (any religion) while remaining respectful to those who oppose them.

Superdan:

A lot of the sources you are citing are narrations that are considered weak in Islam and/or you are using translations that are not accepted. It's not worldly possession, it's desires of this life. Given the nature of the Hadith (if they explained specific things about the religion or it was just to cite another story of the Prophet (PBUH) dictated the amount of authentication given to it). Not all hadith are given the same weight in application to life. They have an entire field to the study of Hadith and narration - and simply finding one does not authenticate it as valid.

I'm not going to bother responding to the answering Islam site. Someone already does that with (http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm) and often answers 1:1 for things posed in your source. If YOU have a question please ask. It's of no benefit if you just copy and paste things that you found online as a means to ask questions.

I understand your position, but I would like to point out

1. I was also presented with links from your fellow Muslim vangolu. I was addressing comments he presented to me regarding only needing to accept what Muhammed himself said. So in this light, I understand what you are saying, but I think it was ok to post what I did in response to vangolu.

2. I'm aware of Mr. Abdullah's site, but I have a HARD time giving any credence to a site that boldly emblazons "9/11: The biggest lie in history!" on its front page.

Just to add on to Mohater,

Superdan do not forget that people (no matter where or which religion) always used religion as a means to control people and do their will.

I will give you a simple story.

When I was a kid people always as said it was a hadith that if you pee under a fig tree, genies would hit you while you are asleep.

Later on I learned from a news columnist who was also a historian, find out the root of this "Hadith"

It turns out, once (in 14th Century) there was a Hodja who was very popular and had a large audidence. He was also wealthy and owned plantations. And yes he was growing figs.The problem was that the road to the farms passed through these plantations. And people would stop by in the forest and did their "natural" business on the way to or back from work. So the word spread that Hodja's figs were tainted.

So of course the shrewd merchant, the Hodja, decided to make up a Hadith to stop people from doing their "natural" business and hence Hodja can continue making money.

Hope you can see my perspective when I see so called "Haddiths" like these

Sure I can understand what you are saying. We Christians have to answer for all kinds of false doctrine and Gospels. There are false Gospels that talk about a boy Jesus taking lumps of clay, rolling them up in to balls, and tossing them in the air where they became doves. It doesn't take a scholar to see how radically different that is than anything written in scripture.

Likewise, there is a huge gap between obvious superstitions and recorded histories. The stuff regarding 'Aisha seems to be well documented and very realistic, not to mention backed up by teachings in the Qu'ran and such. Unless you can provide certain evidence that refutes the Hadiths I presented, I think they are very damning as to the true character of your prophet, and something to be considered.

Likewise, there is a huge gap between obvious superstitions and recorded histories. The stuff regarding 'Aisha seems to be well documented and very realistic, not to mention backed up by teachings in the Qu'ran and such. Unless you can provide certain evidence that refutes the Hadiths I presented, I think they are very damning as to the true character of your prophet, and something to be considered.

I have to disagree Dan. There is not even a consenseus on Aisha's age as much as I know.

And about refuting them, I will leave it upto someone coming from an Arabic background about the sources of those false hadiths. However I will talk about what I do know and indirectly try to refute them based on what I said earlier (people use religion for personal gains)

During Hz. Muhammed's (pbuh) time, the tribe Kureys did not value woman at all before they converted to Islam. Female children were usually buried in sand and left to die. Eradication of a culture takes time and during the conversion many false hadith or even verses will come into play by people trying to adapt to a new religion with their old customs. Hence it may be the reason why these false hadiths and verses are attributed to our Prophet.

Here is some more information on Islam and women

Women in Islam. For the most part, the Quran treats men and women equally, applies the same injunctions and prohibitions to men and women, and grants many of the same privileges and benefits, such as divorce, property ownership, or inheritance. But women are treated separately in certain instances. For example, women are required to "... draw their outer garments around them ... that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not annoyed (by men)." (Quran 33:59) Covering the head and body in public (hijab) is viewed by many Muslim women as a protection of their modesty, a way to discourage men's covetous eyes. The principle of hijab is applied in different ways: a small scarf around the head and regular "street clothes" may be voluntary and acceptable in Cairo or Damascus but a full length opaque "Burqa" was enforced in Taliban Afghanistan. The treatment of women may depend upon rural or urban settings, educational level, society norms, tradition, or other factors.

Muslim women's status is controversial. Some critics claim that Muslim men oppress Muslim women by compelling them to remain hidden behind the veil, sequestered in the home, and ignorant of the world by denying them access to education and worldly opportunities. Defenders of some practices suggest that many of them, such as the veil, are cultural traditions that pre-date Islam and are intended to protect, not constrict, women, or that many Muslim women adopt the life style of the veil voluntarily. There are Muslim women who agree and disagree with the critics.


And here is the link to where this article is based.
http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/islam.htm

This might be a question about Arab culture, rather than Muslim theology, but do the various tribes consider themselves to be the sons of Ishmael? Are there some sects that do, and some that don't?

Also, was it Ishmael instead of Isaac that was blessed by Abraham?

...
Likewise, there is a huge gap between obvious superstitions and recorded histories. The stuff regarding 'Aisha seems to be well documented and very realistic, not to mention backed up by teachings in the Qu'ran and such. Unless you can provide certain evidence that refutes the Hadiths I presented, I think they are very damning as to the true character of your prophet, and something to be considered.

Please explain "well documented"? Since you found it on some online resource, that makes it reputable?

There are hadith the place the age of 'Aisha at the time of her marriage to be between 16 and 18, but you don't know about them because the sources you are referring to for information seem to exist to do nothing but attempt to defame Islam. They were in the wiki on her - but someone deleted it (I know because I added that to the wiki and included all the reference material).

Just as with taking things out of the Bible word for word does not always bode well
"Suppose a man has a stubborn, rebellious son who will not obey his father or mother, even though they discipline him. In such cases, the father and mother must take the son before the leaders of the town. They must declare: 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious and refuses to obey. He is a worthless drunkard.' Then all the men of the town must stone him to death. In this way, you will cleanse this evil from among you, and all Israel will hear about it and be afraid." (Deuteronomy 21:18-21 NLT)

The same exists in Islam. Verses/chapters typically have specific application and rules that exist behind the revelation, and one must ask someone who has studied the science to understand it.

This might be a question about Arab culture, rather than Muslim theology, but do the various tribes consider themselves to be the sons of Ishmael? Are there some sects that do, and some that don't?

Also, was it Ishmael instead of Isaac that was blessed by Abraham?

I don't really know the answer to your first question. Some people still hold specific familial and tribal mindsets, and it can be good and bad. Some people do hold very firm to their tribal ancestry and some do not.

(When you say blessed - you are referring as to the order of sacrifice, correct?)
To your second question, I personally don't take a stance. There's evidence to go either way depending what text you read in all three faiths.

Mammoth - you're mixing concepts.

One aspect of Christianity (not universally accepted) is that God is EVERYWHERE, and in EVERYTHING. While under Islam, it is understood God encompasses the attributes of infinity, and is omnipresent not bound by *living* limitations (time, space, mass, speed, etc.).
That is not a Christian teaching; that's more of a Buddhist/Hindu concept. I don't know my Islam, but I know my Christianity. :)

You're also bringing up another "pop" culture type issue: God doesn't care how you speak to him or how you dress.
I'm really failing to explain this apparently.
While it's widely accepted (among the "big" three religions) that one can pray to God in any language - there *should* be some type of humble approach to prayer. If you want to take examples from anyone in the Bible, Torah, or Quran - when the people (Prophets and otherwise mentioned) asked God for help, they would come in a humble fashion, in a state of purity (mentally and physically), and ask for things in a proper manner. These are our examples that we are supposed to follow. It's not sinful to get ghetto fabulous when praying, but is being humble and showing humility? (AY GOD, WHAT YOU THINK YO, SHOULD I HIT THAT!?!?!?!??)
You mean ghetto fantabulous. :)
All three religions accept the relationship with God as personal to the individual, where the relationship must be maintained (how do you maintain the relationship? By following God's order, it's really that simple).
I'm going to try to explain what I'm saying using a word picture. Hopefully that will work.

OK, so in the Old Testament, God is one cluster of grapes far away, shielded in a temple, or something, proclaiming to the world that He is the true God.

In the New Testament, the cluster of grapes which was far away before has been brought close, left the temple, etc, so we can see the interrelationship of God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit in the single cluster of grapes which is God. And Christians are called to join into the cluster of grapes.

What I want to know is how Islam sees God, and man's interrelationship with God. Is the Christian viewpoint heresy, possible, or promoted by Islam. That kind of thing.

I'm sorry to keep having to explain this different ways; I'm not really sure what I'm doing wrong, but it must be something. I also prefer not to use word pictures because they are imprecise. I'm just trying to do what I can to 'git 'er 'done.

Mammoth - if you look at the Jesus Christ God/Son thread you will see that was one big point of separation between Jhaan and JayVee (omnipresence of God)

http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?t=211931

If you're referring to relating to God as if God is part of creation - yes that incorrect. If you're referring man joining in attributes of God, still incorrect.

God is viewed as singularly unique - nothing is like God. When I mentioned being "close" to God - it contains both the righteous/spiritual aspect (this life) and then being blessed to "see" God in the next life.

Caliph 'Amru Bin al-'Aas said:

"Women are toys, so choose." (Kanz-el-'Ummal, Vol. 21, Hadith No. 919)

"One woman, of 99 women, is in heaven, and the rest of them are in Fire." Kanzu al-`ummal, 22:10.

"But for the woman, man could have entered paradise." Kanzu al-`ummal

"A believing woman is the same among women as a white-footed raven among the ravens. Fire has been created for the senseless, and women are the most senseless of all." Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Musnad (Cairo, n.d.), 4:197,205. Kanzu al-`ummal, 22:11.

There are so many others too....

In defense, the bible (particularly the old testament) also treats women like 2nd class citizens.

Although I haven't really seen any examples of women actually being treated like less than a man anywhere except for the fact they can't become priests. I can't say the same for many middle eastern countries where women are in fact treated as 2nd class citizens.

Vangolu partially answered you but I'll expand specifically on the points you highlight:

Inheritence (already covered earlier): Under Islamic rules, women do not bear financial burden like their male counterparts (brother, spouse, etc.). The men have an obligation to take care of their women - hence that rule. The same concept exists in Judaic law, but the difference is it simply says that if there's a man in the relationship, he gets inheritance (nothing specific as to amount/share).

As for work, can you please cite any resource in any religious text that says you can break the rules of your faith to work? I don't recall such exceptions that exist anywhere. Next, it is up to the couple to decide work/school for their relationship. Islam (like traditional Judaism/Christianity) specify that a wife's first duty it to her husband (no - not necessarily cooking, cleaning, etc. - namely to be his mate and partner). The couple needs to work out how they will manage their relationship. As to the respective laws in specific country - most of these have nothing to do with Islam (i.e. restricting women from certain normal positions) and more to do with the respective groups in power. The same wiki cites more than half of Indonesian women working (fairly high number for any modern country).

Finally - the testimony of women is not disputed. The only time two women are needed as 1 witness is from a contract/tort stand point. If something is to be agreed upon in a public setting - the Quran stipulates two women make the place of one witness. With respect to witness of crime - a women's testimony is considered the same as a man. The thing about four witnesses is unique only to allegations about adultery/forniacation. If a women cites rape, four witnesses are not needed. What goes on in the Indian sub-continent is more of a tribal thing than a religious one (they still burn widows in tribal India). It also occur in Africa, regardless of which religion people attribute themselves to.

I'll ignore your personal attack and calling me out on lying before I even replied.





Thats great and all, but you still never answered my question, WHY ARE WOMEN TREATED AS 2ND CLASS CITIZENS IN ISLAM? You even admit they are not equal, as they do not inherit a full inheritance, but you simply try and justify it saying well they dont need it all. And as well with the testimony that 2 women are needed for contracts/torts, hmm, those 2 things pretty much seem to make them 2nd class citizens.. Plus there are many more things I can get into, but this is good for now. So are you going to answer my question as to why Islam treats women as 2nd class citizens or ignore it because you have no answer?

Thats great and all, but you still never answered my question, WHY ARE WOMEN TREATED AS 2ND CLASS CITIZENS IN ISLAM? You even admit they are not equal, as they do not inherit a full inheritance, but you simply try and justify it saying well they dont need it all. And as well with the testimony that 2 women are needed for contracts/torts, hmm, those 2 things pretty much seem to make them 2nd class citizens.. Plus there are many more things I can get into, but this is good for now. So are you going to answer my question as to why Islam treats women as 2nd class citizens or ignore it because you have no answer?

Women, by and large, are treated as second class citizens in most all undeveloped countries, regardless of religion. Tribal Hinduism has some of the most atrocious crimes against women.

Thats great and all, but you still never answered my question, WHY ARE WOMEN TREATED AS 2ND CLASS CITIZENS IN ISLAM? You even admit they are not equal, as they do not inherit a full inheritance, but you simply try and justify it saying well they dont need it all. And as well with the testimony that 2 women are needed for contracts/torts, hmm, those 2 things pretty much seem to make them 2nd class citizens.. Plus there are many more things I can get into, but this is good for now. So are you going to answer my question as to why Islam treats women as 2nd class citizens or ignore it because you have no answer?

I would assume it's the same reason we treated women and blacks as second class citizens in the United States for so many decades untill not-that-long-ago. A combination of culture, habit, "business-as-usual".

Do they have "progressive" Muslims :D

OT to Magiera: I'm curious how you "know" what slickdeals was created for? I'm pretty sure it was created for profit of the guy who owns slickdeals.

In defense, the bible (particularly the old testament) also treats women like 2nd class citizens.

Although I haven't really seen any examples of women actually being treated like less than a man anywhere except for the fact they can't become priests. I can't say the same for many middle eastern countries where women are in fact treated as 2nd class citizens.

I guess I haven't seen evidence of that in regards to the children of Israel. Heck, even one of the rulers of Israel was a woman (Deborah).

Ok mohater,

I've got a true scenario that I would like for you to answer me.

We know a Muslim woman who migrated from India many years ago. She had an arranged marriage to a heartless, jerk of a man. He would constantly take money from her (she makes most of the money) and would even rape her from time to time. Finally, she left him. When the divorce proceedings came, she got custody of their child, but instead of getting child support, her husband demanded that she pay him money instead.

Eventually she met a Mormon, and is now going to an LDS church.

My question to you is this: does not the Qu'ran condemn the actions of the woman to death, but validate the actions of the man? There are a few scriptures I have to back my statement up, but as one who is versed in the Qu'ran, I thought you could surely answer it better.

Do Muslims see "God" and "Allah" as being interchangeable and the same thing?

This is a very interesting question. Allah means God in Arabic. Allah is not a unique "Islamic" term. Mohammad (SA) uncle was called Abdallah. In Arabic, the word Allah is quite interesting. It is neither masculine, nor feminine. Nor can it be pluralised.

That being said, my knowledge of Arabic is limited. Perhaps an Arab can better clarify.

Sultan, why does Islam call to treat women like 2nd class citizens?

Islam makes no such calls. Can you please point to any relevant examples of where you find Islam calling to treat women like 2nd class citizens? I believe Mohater responded to a number of claims about how treatment is different for the two genders.

In defense, the bible (particularly the old testament) also treats women like 2nd class citizens.

Although I haven't really seen any examples of women actually being treated like less than a man anywhere except for the fact they can't become priests. I can't say the same for many middle eastern countries where women are in fact treated as 2nd class citizens.

The USA is over 200 HUNDRED years old and women's rights are LESS than 30-70 years old (depending on what aspect of them you're referring to). Many of the countries you are referring to are LESS than 50-60 years old all together, and many are run by previous tribal leaders - lacking constitutional/formal rights and institutions known to the western world. Places that have constitutions and formal institutions (Morocco, Malaysia, Oman, aspects of Qatar/UAE, etc.) are fine. Just because Saudi has asinine policies does not make them universals.

Have you ever been the the Middle East?

Please explain "well documented"? Since you found it on some online resource, that makes it reputable?

There are hadith the place the age of 'Aisha at the time of her marriage to be between 16 and 18, but you don't know about them because the sources you are referring to for information seem to exist to do nothing but attempt to defame Islam.

From Wiki: "Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad. She stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, when the marriage was consummated"

The references for this Wiki quote are:

Sahih Bakari
Sahih Muslim
Sunan Abu Da'ud

According to Wiki, these three Hadiths are among the "Sunni Six Major Hadith collections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_major_Hadith_collections)".

For all I know, many other Hadiths agree with these three, but these are the three referenced on Wiki.

Doesn't this constitute a "well documented" argument that Aisha's age was 6 or 7 at the time of marriage, and 9 at the time of consummation? Are Bakari, Muslim, and Abu Da'ud unreliable Hadiths? To me, it seems like you're picking and choosing which Hadiths are unreliable based on what best ignores the unsavory documentation of Mohammed.

I believe you when you say that there are other Hadith(s) which place Aisha's age around 16-18. But why are you placing a greater trust in these Hadiths? Is it because they are considered more accurate than Bukari, Muslim, and Abu Da'ud or because you personally feel that the Mohammed you know and respect wouldn't consummate a marriage with a 9 year old girl?


***edit***
PS. Is "Hadiths" the plural for Hadith? Should Hadith always be capitalized? Why do Bakari and Muslim refered to as Sahih and Abu Da'ud refered to as Sunan? I'm not trying to quiz you, just working on proper grammar.

Ok mohater,

I've got a true scenario that I would like for you to answer me.

We know a Muslim woman who migrated from India many years ago. She had an arranged marriage to a heartless, jerk of a man. He would constantly take money from her (she makes most of the money) and would even rape her from time to time. Finally, she left him. When the divorce proceedings came, she got custody of their child, but instead of getting child support, her husband demanded that she pay him money instead.

Eventually she met a Mormon, and is now going to an LDS church.

My question to you is this: does not the Qu'ran condemn the actions of the woman to death, but validate the actions of the man? There are a few scriptures I have to back my statement up, but as one who is versed in the Qu'ran, I thought you could surely answer it better.

You're really serious about this? I've already asked you for your sources once and you've ignored my request. If you're going to keep quoting something and not cite it's source I have nothing to respond to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_Islam#Financial_matters

Where does the Quran validate rape of someone's wife? Where does it validate a man may take money from the earnings of his wife? Where in the Quran does it claim a women is to be put to death for leaving her abusive husband?

I've already answered earlier in this thread under Islamic rules the earnings of the wife are untouchable by the husband. It is the husbands responsibility to provide for his family (it is up to the couple to decide how they would function as a dual income).

For Goalie:

I personally updated that wiki and someone deleted it and deleted all my sources. It's the same authors of Hadith who have narrations that put the age at 16-18. The reason they both exist is hadith that did not pertain to specific aspects of the faith were less scrutinized as they did not have ramifications of things that were considered contained within the faith (there are many other hadith about walking on paths, fear of certain behaviors, etc.).

I'm not placing greater trust. I'm simply stating the issue is not conclusive and there are indications to give both angles. There are many learned people who say the hadith that state she was 16-18 are stronger because they give direct connection to her age as it related to other events of their time (also connecting with the age of Aisha's sister), instead of simply stating an age.

http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

If you have a question ask, if you come to instigate a hit and run fight as you have been recently, please stop.

Ok mohater,

I've got a true scenario that I would like for you to answer me.

We know a Muslim woman who migrated from India many years ago. She had an arranged marriage to a heartless, jerk of a man. He would constantly take money from her (she makes most of the money) and would even rape her from time to time. Finally, she left him. When the divorce proceedings came, she got custody of their child, but instead of getting child support, her husband demanded that she pay him money instead.

Eventually she met a Mormon, and is now going to an LDS church.

My question to you is this: does not the Qu'ran condemn the actions of the woman to death, but validate the actions of the man? There are a few scriptures I have to back my statement up, but as one who is versed in the Qu'ran, I thought you could surely answer it better.

If you are asking for a legal Islamic viewpoint on the actions of the woman and the man in this *specific* case, it'd best be answered in an Islamic court.

What is evidently wrong in the above example according to the teaching of the Quran is that the husband is financially responsible for his wife. He is not allowed to beat her. Rape is forbidden. So in those cases, the husband is to blame.

On the other hand, the wife cannot refuse to have marital relationship with her husband without cause. Furthermore, the aforementioned reasons are not cause to turn your back on Islam. So in those cases, she is at fault.

Regardless, one can cite numerous examples of many cases amongst Jews/Christians/Mormons/Hindus/Buddhists/"Insert Religion here" where individuals have done horrible things.

I guess I haven't seen evidence of that in regards to the children of Israel. Heck, even one of the rulers of Israel was a woman (Deborah).

I'm differentiating between the bible and actual practices by followers. The bible is very disparaging of women, particularly the old testament, but most of the people who are of faiths that are bible-based do not treat and / or see women as 2nd class citizens.

A diss to intice me to respond? You do realize this is a forum Mr. Internet Macho Man. Grow up.

If you want to debate about views, make a new thread. This is a thread for knowledge about Islam, not about your views or mine.

As an addendum to this, do you disagree with the fact within Islam knowledge is debatable? It seems to me that's the major reason you have violent strife within muslim sects in the middle east to begin with.

The USA is over 200 HUNDRED years old and women's rights are LESS than 30-70 years old (depending on what aspect of them you're referring to). Many of the countries you are referring to are LESS than 50-60 years old all together, and many are run by previous tribal leaders - lacking constitutional/formal rights and institutions known to the western world. Places that have constitutions and formal institutions (Morocco, Malaysia, Oman, aspects of Qatar/UAE, etc.) are fine. Just because Saudi has asinine policies does not make them universals.

Have you ever been the the Middle East?

I'm not sure where you are going with this. I was giving a reason as to why some Muslim nations are disparaging towards women and bringing up the fact that here in the USA it wasn't that long ago that we were ourselves disparaging to women (and minorities).

And yes, I have been to Saudi with the national guard.

Ok, I just watched these little tidbits and I do have a few questions regarding them. The man is allowed to beat the woman yet if he bruises her or causes bleeding, she doesn't have to put up with it. What is her recourse? Does she have any recourse other than to wait until Judgment Day before something is done about it and in the meantime, she must spend her life with an abuser? Secondly, if a woman were not a second class citizen, she would be able to beat her husband if he disobeys (going by the law that he can beat her). Apparently the woman cannot even get the police involved, so what can she do about a man that beats her for stupid reasons?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58 (http://slickdeals.net/?sduid=139894&t=119846&u2=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58)

This guys' take on beatings seems skewed. It's ok to beat women in some cultures but not in others. It appears through his eyes as though concessions are made for differing cultures rather than the Quran being a blanket statement to rule all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hcQTmcgkKA (http://slickdeals.net/?sduid=139894&t=119846&u2=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hcQTmcgkKA)

Whereas the first video claims that beatings shouldn't hurt the woman, this guy seems to feel that if the rod isn't big enough, what's the point of beating her? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh7qiO3Ygnk (http://slickdeals.net/?sduid=139894&t=119846&u2=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh7qiO3Ygnk)

This guy comes across as if he wants to beat pell mell out of all women just because it would boost his own ego to do so. Does it not cross any man's mind that if a woman were abused by her father who had angry outbursts (loss of his own self-control) that maybe she shouldn't be beat at all ever again? Just because she was brought up with beatings does not mean she should have to endure them the rest of her life. How stupid is the thinking that she must need to be beat because she was raised with beatings?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWGA8i6scYY

These videos seem to try to justify hitting women because men can't control themselves and aren't expected to control themselves. Beating a woman is nothing more than a mans inability to temper the beast that resides within him and only makes him come across as less than masculine. If a woman were given the opportunity to waylay her husband, how quickly would his mindset on beatings change? It doesn't matter that the Quran offers a tidbit of permission to beat a woman. It does not cover recourse for the woman when her husband is out of line. If the only option given to her is to wait until Judgment Day, so to should his angst against his wife wait until that day.

I'm not sure where you are going with this. I was giving a reason as to why some Muslim nations are disparaging towards women and bringing up the fact that here in the USA it wasn't that long ago that we were ourselves disparaging to women (and minorities).

And yes, I have been to Saudi with the national guard.

Ok Saudi - What about Lebanon? UAE? Oman? Kuwait?

It's simply that the rights of women in countries established long ago are a RECENT phenamon, and here people tout them as being as the very nations themselves. Change came with time here, as it did with every other DEVELOPED nation. If things take time with DEVELOPED nations, won't they also take time in DEVELOPING or UNDER-DEVELOPED countries?

Things don't change overnight. They don't change in Iraq overnight, they don't change in our policies that quickly, and they don't change abroad that quickly either.

Peachyum - I can't watch youtube at work - will reply with a complete reply later.

A women is allowed recourse from an abusive husband - both legally and through obtaining a divorce. Much like the martial process in the early 20th century - under Islam a marriage is typically through more of a courtship setting and there is a "marriage contract" which can be made. Aside from all the rules, certain conditions can be made in the contract (lifestyle, education, etc. - whatever you want to cover that is not something specific in the religion). Breaking the rules contained in Islam is, always, grounds for divorce. A women is allowed to have her marriage nullified under Islamic law (assuming something in the contract is broken).

From Wiki: "Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad. She stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, when the marriage was consummated"

The references for this Wiki quote are:

Sahih Bakari
Sahih Muslim
Sunan Abu Da'ud

According to Wiki, these three Hadiths are among the "Sunni Six Major Hadith collections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_major_Hadith_collections)".

For all I know, many other Hadiths agree with these three, but these are the three referenced on Wiki.

Doesn't this constitute a "well documented" argument that Aisha's age was 6 or 7 at the time of marriage, and 9 at the time of consummation? Are Bakari, Muslim, and Abu Da'ud unreliable Hadiths? To me, it seems like you're picking and choosing which Hadiths are unreliable based on what best ignores the unsavory documentation of Mohammed.

I believe you when you say that there are other Hadith(s) which place Aisha's age around 16-18. But why are you placing a greater trust in these Hadiths? Is it because they are considered more accurate than Bukari, Muslim, and Abu Da'ud or because you personally feel that the Mohammed you know and respect wouldn't consummate a marriage with a 9 year old girl?


***edit***
PS. Is "Hadiths" the plural for Hadith? Should Hadith always be capitalized? Why do Bakari and Muslim refered to as Sahih and Abu Da'ud refered to as Sunan? I'm not trying to quiz you, just working on proper grammar.

I would like to respond to the issue regarding Aisha's (ra) marriage.

I for one do believe in the hadiths that give her age of marriage to be 6 and age of consummation to be 9.

By contemporary thought, the age is considered to be extremely young. However, none of us are aware of her maturity at that age. The fact is Aisha (ra) was regarded as the favorite wife of Mohammad (sa). She had extremely good acumen. A huge number of hadiths/traditions come from her.

Mohammad (sa) married Khadijah (ra), over a decade his senior. And he married Aisha (ra), decades younger. So what? Such marriages are not unheard of in the East in the present times, and we are discussing cultural norms of 1400 years ago.

As an addendum to this, do you disagree with the fact within Islam knowledge is debatable? It seems to me that's the major reason you have violent strife within muslim sects in the middle east to begin with.

In terms of Islamic laws, you have the two main sources: Quran and the Sunnah. If the answer is not found therein, such as modern affairs, Muslims are to refer to those who are incharge of their affairs, that is the leader of the Muslim nation, who will make a ruling not contradictory to the Quran and Sunnah.

I am not sure what you mean by knowledge within Islam? Certain laws are held true for all times, others are open to interpretation as advances in technology/times, etc occur.