http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/digitaljoystick/archives/129866.asp

This past week I met and interviewed an individual who has worked on the Xbox 360 project for many years and they had some things that they wanted to get out into the public. I have the fullest confined in the integrity of my confidential source. While respecting and protecting his rights we were able to have an in-depth interview of working in the Xbox project and just how things progressed ot this point. Just keep in mind that a while back i broke the story that Bungie was leaving Microsoft and had all the details a full week before the official PR announcement Once again I have a confidential source from inside Redmond and I't all checks out to me.

I think the most interesting aspect of this is the explanation on why there's RROD. No one really goes in depth on why, it's just accepted that it happens.

This probably explains why people get RROD after sending their consoles in for service.

Q: How many times does an Xbox 360 unit have to be sent in and repaired before they will replace it with a completely new unit?
That's not how it works. You send in a broken box, you get back a working box (hopefully). So there is a rotating stock of the original units that get repaired and returned to service. Plus, they keep finding these cashes of launch units here and there and using them too. Didn't you hear during the holidays that bundles were found with units made in 06? Those were pulled back from the retail channel last spring when the new heatsink was done, and had the new heatsink placed on them and then put into the shipping flow like any other box.

Back to the rotating inventory of launch units. You risk getting one of those back until the last one is out of the system. I imagine the next big outrage will be when some of the folks who waited till Falcon to buy a console for reliability reasons, and has to send it in for service, gets a Xenon back! Even when all of the Xenons are gone, you will likely get a newer gen repaired one back rather than new. Unless the fail rate gets so low there are none available. I'm holding my breath...

interesting read

Q: So what do you think the real failure rate of the Xbox 360 is? Some have estimated it as high as 30%. I got my Xbox in early 2007 and so far so good but what do you think the chance is that it's going to die on me one day.

It's around 30%, and all will probably fail early. This quarter they are expecting 1 M failures, most of those Xenons. Some of those are repeat failures. Life expectancy is all over the map because the design has very little margin for most of the important parameters. That means it's not a fault tolerant design. So a good unit may last a couple of years, while a bad unit can fail in hours. I have a launch unit and have not had a single problem with it. And it's used a lot. But I don't know anyone else with a 360 that hasn't broken, except you now. There's no way to tell when yours might die. But the cooler you can keep it, the longer it will probably last. So stand it up, keep it in free air, etc. :Note : Xenon was the code name for the first Xbox 360 mother board.

Oh, golly!

hmmm....

"Q: In your opinion what do you think the main cause of the Red Ring of Death failures have been?
RROD is caused by anything that fails in the "digital backbone" on the mother board. Also known as a core digital error. CPU, GPU, memory, etc. Bad parts, incompatible parts (timing problems) bad manufacturing process (like solder joints), misapplied heat sinks or thermal interface material, missing parts, broken parts, parts of the wrong value, missed test coverage. Any one or more, on any chip, or many other discrete components, would cause this. And many of the failures were obviously infant mortality, where they work when they leave the factory and fail early in use. The main design flaw was the excessive heat on the GPU warping the mother board around it. This would stress the solder joints on the GPU and any bad joints would then fail in early life.

There are also other significantly high failure rates in other areas, like the DVD."



that sounds like deja vu for me

I wish someone would ask how reliable the newer manufactured 360's are. It doesn't seem like the falcon reiteration definitively solve RROD.

I wish someone would ask how reliable the newer manufactured 360's are. It doesn't seem like the falcon reiteration definitively solve RROD.

i dont think ms put many on the shelves

Good read. Have to finish reading the rest later.

I wish someone would ask how reliable the newer manufactured 360's are. It doesn't seem like the falcon reiteration definitively solve RROD.

It said less than 10%

Aside from some major grammatical mistakes by the interviewer, the interviewee sounded like the real thing. Not many people would know about metal fatigue stress in solder joints much less half of the other info. Interesting read, thanks OP!

Cool read. Very long read. :lol: Interesting.

It said less than 10%

Aside from some major grammatical mistakes by the interviewer, the interviewee sounded like the real thing. Not many people would know about metal fatigue stress in solder joints much less half of the other info. Interesting read, thanks OP!

As someone in the comments wrote:
What a total load of trash. Anyone with an internet connection and a limited knowledge of elelctronics manufacture could have written this half baked effort. At least go to the periodic table before publishing and learn how to write chemistry symbols correctly... might as well learn how to spell at the same time...

Also, I've found that the interviewee's responses were quite odd. I've no doubt that the guy works in MS if he's the same source as who leaked the Bungie split. I just doubt that what he's saying is based on anything particularly trustworthy. It's, more or less, paying lip-service to all of the theories that already existed "confirming" that all the theories are, in fact, true.

Also, the interviewer has an obnoxiously low understanding of English.

Deny till you die!

If it's a fake, it's the best fake ever... despite a grammatical error here and there.

Deny till you die!

If it's a fake, it's the best fake ever... despite a grammatical error here and there.



The comments by Xbots following that article are even funnier than the stuff you see around here. Master spin-doctors, lol.

The comments by Xbots following that article are even funnier than the stuff you see around here. Master spin-doctors, lol.

I especially liked the part about the manufacturing process being "immature" all the way up and down the line, and how there was zero time invested in fault tolerance.

Also, net yields under 40%? That's horrifying.

This story is everywhere now. Maxconsole put it up yesterday too.

You have to give props to MS for realizing that console build quality wouldn't significantly affect console sales so long as they delivered games.

You have to give props to MS for realizing that console build quality wouldn't significantly affect console sales so long as they delivered games.

Maybe up until recently, but I don't think they appreciate having too much of a spotlight put on it now.

You have to give props to MS for realizing that console build quality wouldn't significantly affect console sales so long as they delivered games.

So you are excusing MS for putting out a crappy build because they have a lot of games to play on it??? What good does your games matter if the machine is being repaired?:crazy:

I've had my 360 for over a year, luckily no RROD. I get the occasional freeze, but I don't think this has anything to do with the RROD issues.

English in the article is a little poor, not entirely journalistic. Then again, I don't read many blogs so maybe this is normal.

Either way, nothing new or groundbreaking here. Pro-360'ers will question the unnamed source and anti-360'ers will celebrate another citing of the 30% number

Even if you were to believe that this guy was paying lip service to existing rumors, you'd also still have to believe he invented quite a number of his own details to go along with it... quite a tour-de-force of fiction, if you are so inclined to believe.

I don't see why M$ was in such a hurry. Sony's PS3 wasn't ready, and I doubt Sony would have released if M$ didn't (if that was the case, they would have rushed the PS3 out before the 360 hit).

What would it have hurt if they postponed to a february release and worked on the kinks a little more? Whether a console is released around the holidays or not doesn't effect sales too much. A new console is going to sell out either way. Plus with the early supply constraints, I'm sure it would have lasted into late october-november, where sales would jump for the holidays anyway.

I don't see why M$ was in such a hurry. Sony's PS3 wasn't ready, and I doubt Sony would have released if M$ didn't (if that was the case, they would have rushed the PS3 out before the 360 hit).

What would it have hurt if they postponed to a february release and worked on the kinks a little more? Whether a console is released around the holidays or not doesn't effect sales too much. A new console is going to sell out either way. Plus with the early supply constraints, I'm sure it would have lasted into late october-november, where sales would jump for the holidays anyway.

Look at it from the other direction though. Given it's been out for so long, would a february release really have helped that much?

Q: So what do you think the real failure rate of the Xbox 360 is? Some have estimated it as high as 30%. I got my Xbox in early 2007 and so far so good but what do you think the chance is that it's going to die on me one day.

Wow, I love how he just spoon feeds the answer right in the question.

Wow, I love how he just spoon feeds the answer right in the question.

Right, because he needed to hear that to answer?

Right, because he needed to hear that to answer?

Well journalism is supposed to be about facts, but I guess since this guy is a "blogger", he doesn't count.

Back to the 30%, you'll notice the MS inside man says, 'it's around 30%..."

Would he have given that answer without being led in the question? Maybe, maybe not? He might of responded with 25% or 38%, but since the blogger already suggested a 30% return rate, the MS guy responds with a roundabout figure tailored around the question.

To qoute Lionel Hutz, "We've plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence."

Why in the world do people still deny there is a serious problem with the reliability of 360s (at least the earlier models)? 30% sounds unfathomable, I agree.. but based on anecdotal evidence not completely impossible. Let's say the real failure rate is more like 10% -- still horrible and still inexcusable.

Well journalism is supposed to be about facts, but I guess since this guy is a "blogger", he doesn't count.

Back to the 30%, you'll notice the MS inside man says, 'it's around 30%..."

Would he have given that answer without being led in the question? Maybe, maybe not? He might of responded with 25% or 38%, but since the blogger already suggested a 30% return rate, the MS guy responds with a roundabout figure tailored around the question.

To qoute Lionel Hutz, "We've plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence."

I'd be more than willing to bet that this was an email interview, not a telephone interview. I would think that the 30% in writing would be less likely to alter his response, although it is still inexcusable, just as his piss poor grasp on the english language is inexcusable.

As an electrical engineer who works closely with manufacturing to fix product issues, what this guy is saying rings true. The only inaccurate thing I saw was the melting point of Pb-free solder, which is usually 260 degC. I suppose they could use a different type of solder or that reflow temperatures are different than actual melting point, but 260 degC is what I've always understood, not over 300 degC. That is sort of nit picking anyway.

Many of the issues he talks about are isolated failures or prototype failures my own company has seen. However, since we have a failure rate below 1% in the field, we obviously step and handle them much, much better. Different industry though, so no real comparison.

Basically, this guy wrote exactly what I would have conjectured myself, except with a lot more damning details.

As an electrical engineer who works closely with manufacturing to fix product issues, what this guy is saying rings true. The only inaccurate thing I saw was the melting point of Pb-free solder, which is usually 260 degC. I suppose they could use a different type of solder or that reflow temperatures are different than actual melting point, but 260 degC is what I've always understood, not over 300 degC. That is sort of nit picking anyway.

Many of the issues he talks about are isolated failures or prototype failures my own company has seen. However, since we have a failure rate below 1% in the field, we obviously step and handle them much, much better. Different industry though, so no real comparison.

Basically, this guy wrote exactly what I would have conjectured myself, except with a lot more damning details.


I was suspicious of the 300 C number also but I figured he meant for a reflow of the joints instead of initial melting point. Either way, that hurt his credibility in my eyes but his words still were strikingly familiar to the words of the electrical techs which took a look at my dead 360.

Well journalism is supposed to be about facts, but I guess since this guy is a "blogger", he doesn't count.

Back to the 30%, you'll notice the MS inside man says, 'it's around 30%..."

Would he have given that answer without being led in the question? Maybe, maybe not? He might of responded with 25% or 38%, but since the blogger already suggested a 30% return rate, the MS guy responds with a roundabout figure tailored around the question.

To qoute Lionel Hutz, "We've plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence."


Starting the question with "Some have estimated it as high as 30%" doesn't make it manipulative when that number is well known and it is 100% certain that the interviewee has heard it before. You think with all the information he had, that he would have been influenced one bit by the question, and that he would not have responded "around 30%" regardless?

It said less than 10%

Aside from some major grammatical mistakes by the interviewer, the interviewee sounded like the real thing. Not many people would know about metal fatigue stress in solder joints much less half of the other info. Interesting read, thanks OP!

Not many people other than any EE major or weekend electronics hobbyist.

This article reads like it was written by a high school student and is from a source I've never heard of before (seattlepi.com? wtf?), so I have a difficult time lending it any of the credibility it so desperately needs.

PSthreetards, of course, love it to death.

Why in the world do people still deny there is a serious problem with the reliability of 360s (at least the earlier models)? 30% sounds unfathomable, I agree.. but based on anecdotal evidence not completely impossible. Let's say the real failure rate is more like 10% -- still horrible and still inexcusable.

Who denies that there was a serious reliability with the early 360 units? :dontknow:
The only thing I notice is that Sony fanboys scream 30%! 30%! 30%! every time someone criticizes the PS3, while 360 fanboys tend to focus on the fact that newer units seem more reliable and MS will fix your console for free if you happen to get the RRoD problem.

Not many people other than any EE major or weekend electronics hobbyist.

This article reads like it was written by a high school student and is from a source I've never heard of before (seattlepi.com? wtf?), so I have a difficult time lending it any of the credibility it so desperately needs.

PSthreetards, of course, love it to death.

The only reason this source has any credibility is because the same guy broke the story of Bungie and MS breaking up first.

For those that question why MS would release the 360 when it did, consider this: Nvidia stopped producing the GPU that the original Xbox was using in August 2005. This necessitated the release of a new console or a gap when no new Xboxes would be made or sold.

I have a question that has been driving me insane:

To all of the MS apologists, why get so fired up when people say the return rate could very well be around 30%? Why defend a major company who obviously made a quality vs. time-to-market decision the screwed you, their own fans?

As someone else already pointed out, even if the return rate is in the 10% range, that is completely unacceptable for a high volume consumer product. 5% would be bad for a consumer product. In consumer electronics, <1% warranty failures is a common goal and is usually met by successful companies. I bet MS themselves deeply regrets sending a poorly designed, marginally tested product into the market, because it is costing them a ton of money and bad PR.

So seriously, why the rabid defense? It's like you are defending them for slapping you across the mouth.

Posting disclaimer: I do not own a PS3 or XB360. I do plan to buy one or both of them.

I have a question that has been driving me insane:

To all of the MS apologists, why get so fired up when people say the return rate could very well be around 30%? Why defend a major company who obviously made a quality vs. time-to-market decision the screwed you, their own fans?

As someone else already pointed out, even if the return rate is in the 10% range, that is completely unacceptable for a high volume consumer product. 5% would be bad for a consumer product. In consumer electronics, <1% warranty failures is a common goal and is usually met by successful companies. I bet MS themselves deeply regrets sending a poorly designed, marginally tested product into the market, because it is costing them a ton of money and bad PR.

So seriously, why the rabid defense? It's like you are defending them for slapping you across the mouth.

Posting disclaimer: I do not own a PS3 or XB360. I do plan to buy one or both of them.

Personally I get annoyed because people who quote the 30% number fail to acknowledge the fact that MS has revised the console several times since then, leading to significant improvements in reliability. The first PS3 was $599 US DOLLARS but you don't see people hauling out the $599! $599! $599! the way you see people use the 30% number.

I think some other folks, however, are just enraptured with MS and hate to hear folks speak evil of their favorite company.

For those that question why MS would release the 360 when it did, consider this: Nvidia stopped producing the GPU that the original Xbox was using in August 2005. This necessitated the release of a new console or a gap when no new Xboxes would be made or sold.

That means little, when a company stops making a chip their customers have the option for a final buy. MS could have easily purchased a years worth of chips, or if MS would have continued the Xbox for another year Nvidia most likely would not have stopped producing it so early.

There really is no reason for xbox fanboys to get defensive. The fact of the matter is that RROD is covered by a warranty. The 360 currently has the larger user base, game library and better online infrastructure despite of whatever hardware issues it has. MS sacrificed hardware quality in order to bring those features to the table. Now if MS didn't cover RROD, then there would be a problem.

I think the real issues that you should be worried about is that even if you get a falcon or Jasper or Xephyr machine, if that thing RROD's, chances are you're going to get a Xenon back. If I were a 360 owner that would be the thing that bothers me the most.

Since for some reason my posts were deleted, I'll post again.

Just when I thought we could go a week without this borderline trolling BS, we get this thread. :rolleyes:

:woot: Hooray for fanboys and mudslingers alike :woot:

There really is no reason for xbox fanboys to get defensive.
And there is no reason to continue to beat the horse and post this BS and continue to harp on it like so many around here do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll).

I think some other folks, however, are just enraptured with MS and hate to hear folks speak evil of their favorite company.

Like who?

Not necessarily anyone on this board, but one of the other boards I go to has some MS fanboys who just hate anything Sony and love anything MS no matter how good or bad each product is.

If people think the fanboy wars are bad here they aren't visiting enough video game discussion boards.

Who denies that there was a serious reliability with the early 360 units? :dontknow:

Good joke. Answer: EVERYONE. Look back in the thread, you'll find one early response trying to discredit the author.

If people think the fanboy wars are bad here they aren't visiting enough video game discussion boards.

I stopped participating on boards like Penny-Arcade and Cheap Ass Gamer because of the video game nerd personalities.

Good joke. Answer: EVERYONE. Look back in the thread, you'll find one early response trying to discredit the author.

Discrediting author =/= denying problems with the launch 360s

I stopped participating on boards like Penny-Arcade and Cheap Ass Gamer because of the video game nerd personalities.

Yeah.
I think it's amusing though.
Trolling trolls is surprisingly fun. :D

to be honest... i REALLY wanted to purchase a 360. I'm a huge fan of Gears and the Halo series, but after waiting for so long (for a reliable 360 that wouldn't RROD on me) i decided just to purchase a PS3.

And this is coming from a guy who owned about 5 times the amount of Xbox games compared to PS2 games. (i had like 4 PS2 games...) If they ever do fix the RROD issue though... believe me, I'm going to throw some cash for it, cause I need some of that Halo and Gears fixens...

to be honest... i REALLY wanted to purchase a 360. I'm a huge fan of Gears and the Halo series, but after waiting for so long (for a reliable 360 that wouldn't RROD on me) i decided just to purchase a PS3.

And this is coming from a guy who owned about 5 times the amount of Xbox games compared to PS2 games. (i had like 4 PS2 games...) If they ever do fix the RROD issue though... believe me, I'm going to throw some cash for it, cause I need some of that Halo and Gears fixens...

If they don't fix the hardware problems, you could always just shell out for a decent computer since they're coming to PC.

to be honest... i REALLY wanted to purchase a 360. I'm a huge fan of Gears and the Halo series, but after waiting for so long (for a reliable 360 that wouldn't RROD on me) i decided just to purchase a PS3.

And this is coming from a guy who owned about 5 times the amount of Xbox games compared to PS2 games. (i had like 4 PS2 games...) If they ever do fix the RROD issue though... believe me, I'm going to throw some cash for it, cause I need some of that Halo and Gears fixens...

I am in the same boat as you but for me, its the new splinter cell that is grabbing my attention. For now, I'm very happy with my PS3 but if SC: Conviction is just as good as Double Agent was, then I may have to re-visit my thoughts on buying another 360. Until then, Uncharted/Ratchet and Clank, and Blu-Ray movies are more than enough to keep me occupied.

Inside source responds to comments on initial article

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/digitaljoystick/archives/129931.asp

Hi everyone. I understand the questions you all have. I hope you understand that it's a bit overwhelming to try and answer everything in real time. After tonight, I'm going to ask Jake (or Jacob?) to field your questions and funnel them to me for answers. Then we can do that in an organized way. But for now, I'm going to try and answer some that I thought were most important.

First, why the secrecy?

MS knows who I am. That's why I'm not concerned about self identifying to them in these postings with details only they would know, as some here have pointed out. The people who founded Xbox hw number 10. 1 left to go be the VP of manufacturing at Qualcomm, 1 left to go be the GM of engineering at Zune, 1 left after only 2 months in '99 due to conflicts with toddhol. He works on Surface now. The rest still work on Xbox. I am the only one who left the company entirely.

I am not concerned about MS knowing who I am. They are worried about me revealing their problems. Not the other way around. Plus, I have contacted every single attorney who has filed a lawsuit against MS and offered to help. Some have accepted, and that work is in progress. We'll talk about that in another post. It's very interesting, I just don't want a bunch of fan boys trying to hack my home PC (that I use for work). Harass my kids, call my house, etc.

Second, why now?

Well, it's not just now. I've been reaching out since before the product went into manufacturing. I left before launch. But many employees continued to contact me about the problems with the product and its launch. I did my best to help them figure out how to mitigate the problems caused my bad management decisions, and test the boxes right. Sometimes my ideas worked, sometimes they didn't. I then started to contact reporters. Sometimes it went no where. Sometimes, it resulted in a spectacular thing, like the ambush interview with toddhol just before MS admitted guilt. But still, it happened too slowly for me. That's one reason I'm doing this now.

When those articles were posted last July, I chimed in as a commentator. That's when Jake invited me for an interview. But I didn't see it then. It was only recently when I goog'ed "xboxfounder" on a whim that I found that old invite. So I contacted him to see if he was still interested. I sent him a current resume from my current work email account, and he believed me. If you guys don't, then tell me what you need to see as proof. And I will provide that.

Last: My motivation.

I have always been in a position to stand up for the customer. MS stopped me from doing that. They need to pay the price now. If you guys won't get together and make that happen, you have no hope for the future with them. It's not my fight, but I am here fighting. You decide what you want to do. And then do it!

Lol, the whole thing just SCREAMS "fake" to me. :nod:

Last: My motivation.

I have always been in a position to stand up for the customer. MS stopped me from doing that. They need to pay the price now. If you guys won't get together and make that happen, you have no hope for the future with them. It's not my fight, but I am here fighting. You decide what you want to do. And then do it!



My heart bleeds for him. Such the martyr.

/golfclap

If true, I'm sure his bitterness is the driving force and motivation and not his care for the "customer." Although, a disgruntled employee still has reason to expose his former employer's wrongdoings and mistakes. I'll take it at face value for now but everything he says seems very plausable and holds water from a scientific point of view. I'll say this, if it is a hoax, it's an elaborate one from a guy who has done his research and has a good foundation of knowledge on electronic devices.

Some more stuff this guy posted last year, before the blogger had discovered and interviewed him (some bolding by me):

It also ends up that my source for this story posted some comments on Dean Takahashi's interview with Xbox's Todd Holmdahl

# xboxfounder Says:
June 19th, 2007 at 3:18 pm

MS has admited to the problem with actions that cost them tons of money. Those actions speak much louder than any words of denial can. They never would have done these things if they did not have to.

MS has told the world they have a significant quality problem in two very important ways. 1) They increased the length of their warranty and made it retroactive. 2) They redesigned their mobo and replaced a 50 cent extruded aluminum heatsink on the GPU with a $5 one, with phase change heat tube and high efficiency copper base. Just like on the CPU. They even found it necessary to pipe the heat over in front of the fan. I haven't seen that trick since the first release of Dreamcast. No one adds cost like that to a yr 2 console redesign unless they need to fix a large quality problem.

The warranty move alone will cost them many millions of dollars, and I can guarantee you this was only done to stave off lawsuits for quality issues. If MS puts out low quality HW, but repairs it at their cost for a reasonable amount of time, then the consumer has not been harmed legally. Even if they bear costs and inconvenience due to MS induced and known about problems.

The ironic thing for MS is that most (if not all) of the 12 to 13 million of the original design will probably fail significantly early. Well before the 8000 operational hours in the spec (4 years of 40 hours per week of use). MS is just trying to delay the inevitable recall, or "free service for life" that they will be forced into for those units as they continue to fail at an accelerated rate throughout years 2 and 3 of their service life.

MS had many choices that they blew which led them to this point. They decided to ship a low quality product without proper testing. They chose to continue to ship at a very high rate when all indications told them that there were way too many infant and teenage mortality defects in the population. They chose not slow down or stop and fix the problems when they were channel stuffing last year just so they could claim success on their goal of first to 10 million. And all along, they have chosen not to tell the truth to their customers and shareholders about not only what the failure rate is, but how much money this poor quality has cost Xbox in this product cycle. Total lack of integrity, backbone, customer and shareholder focus. All to save their own hides.

I wouldn't be surprised if this issue ended up in some kind of anti trust legal situation, or if Peter, Todd and gang get called to the carpet under Sabanes Oxley laws. After all, they made decisions that had disaterous effects for MS' bottom line, and they did hide significant details from share holders, while ignoring all responsibility and opportunity to really do the right thing. I would hate to be in their shoes when the details come out. They always do…

and

# xboxfounder Says:
June 19th, 2007 at 10:56 pm

Reading these posts is fun for me. As a long time MS employee, and founding Xbox member (no longer there), I shake my head at some of the crap I read. And just have to wonder who it is making these posts. I remember on XB1, we had team members whose job it was to constantly surf these kinds of sites and try to diffuse any critisism.

So I want everyone who reads these posts to know that some of the "fan boys" are xbox team members who are charged with monitoring and re-directing the talk on these sites. We used to laugh about it at meetings, how dumb you all are. I'm sure they still do. You can tell them by the turn of phrase they use, the TLAs they use, the posts they object to, the posts they make, etc. Its a many headed dragon…

Now that I've broken radio silence, I'll try to point those kind folks out to you. How to spot them, questions to ask, syntax to look for, etc. So that you aren't fooled by some high powered MS butt hole with a sheet of talking points in front of him, with a report they have to produce daily.

My info is neither conjecture nor anecdote. I can tell you more about what happened there than anyone I've seen in my xbox posts surfing career. If you only knew what I know about 360 quality and reliability problems, your head would explode.

Virtually no one there is happy, except Todd's inner circle, and the problems are far larger than reported on any share so far. I've seen the data, heard the wails, and it ain't good. Every few months, I see someone from the team. They never fail to complain about what's going on, regarding the subjects on these posts. So MS knows, they just will not speak.

So for all of you idiots who say its not a big deal: just shut up. You don't know a gd thing. I've lived my life as an engineer standing up for quality, as the customer's rep. MS has completely biffed it.

And for only one reason. To beat Sony. In '98, Kutaragi said that game consoles would make windows irrelevant in the home, and that Sony PS would be the venue to do that. Bill got really pissed, and decided to do Xbox to stop him, at any cost. We're seeing that now. "Any cost" is pretty high, but MS can afford it with monopolist's profits.

That's why your consoles don't work. They don't have to. MS just needs to protect the Windows monopoly into the home space. They have an integration strategy, where a Windows PC is central. And all MS hw works together. Xbox is just a Trojan Horse.

Man up, and do what's right.

:sleepy:
:sleepy:
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:sleepy:


I thought of you and Paperboy05 when I read this part:

So I want everyone who reads these posts to know that some of the "fan boys" are xbox team members who are charged with monitoring and re-directing the talk on these sites. We used to laugh about it at meetings, how dumb you all are. I'm sure they still do. You can tell them by the turn of phrase they use, the TLAs they use, the posts they object to, the posts they make, etc. Its a many headed dragon…

But then I thought, nah, they're probably smarter than that.

It sure sounds like this guy is legit, especially after being the one who broke the Bungie-split news (lotsa people, especially Gamespot, with egg on their face after that one). If he wasn't telling the truth, Microsoft would have put the legal kibosh on him by now, but you can't sue someone for telling the truth and win.

It sure sounds like this guy is legit, especially after being the one who broke the Bungie-split news (lotsa people, especially Gamespot, with egg on their face after that one). If he wasn't telling the truth, Microsoft would have put the legal kibosh on him by now, but you can't sue someone for telling the truth and win.

Still, it's no surprise he announced more or less that he was lawyering up, in case they try to invoke some kind of non-disclosure clause in his employment/termination agreement.

I thought of you and Paperboy05 when I read this part:

But then I thought, nah, they're probably smarter than that.

I think of you a lot when I hear news about Sony making fake blogs and message board accounts to promote the PS3 and Blu-Ray formats. :D

It sure sounds like this guy is legit, especially after being the one who broke the Bungie-split news (lotsa people, especially Gamespot, with egg on their face after that one). If he wasn't telling the truth, Microsoft would have put the legal kibosh on him by now, but you can't sue someone for telling the truth and win.

I'm surprised anyone thought Bungie wouldn't split when their contract was up.
They're popular enough to do whatever they want, and MS was just holding them back by forcing them to work on Halo games.

As far as MS not suing him, how can you sue someone who's anonymous? :dontknow:

I think of you a lot when I hear news about Sony making fake blogs and message board accounts to promote the PS3 and Blu-Ray formats. :D



I'm surprised anyone thought Bungie wouldn't split when their contract was up.
They're popular enough to do whatever they want, and MS was just holding them back by forcing them to work on Halo games.

As far as MS not suing him, how can you sue someone who's anonymous? :dontknow:

Think the article (if true) said that MS knows who he is

Think the article (if true) said that MS knows who he is

Sure, but he's making all these accusations as an "anonymous source."

In order to sue this anonymous source they'd have to be able to prove it was a specific person, which can be remarkably hard.

I think of you a lot when I hear news about Sony making fake blogs and message board accounts to promote the PS3 and Blu-Ray formats. :D

I'm sure that when you counter-google-stalked me you probably noticed I keep all these discussions limited to this board only, at least 99% of it.



I'm surprised anyone thought Bungie wouldn't split when their contract was up.
They're popular enough to do whatever they want, and MS was just holding them back by forcing them to work on Halo games.

As far as MS not suing him, how can you sue someone who's anonymous? :dontknow:

Well, *most* in the industry *were* surprised.

Sure, but he's making all these accusations as an "anonymous source."

In order to sue this anonymous source they'd have to be able to prove it was a specific person, which can be remarkably hard.

He said he's only hiding his identity to protect himself from people like you, not MS. He said he is the only one out of ten team members that left the company entirely. I'm pretty sure that makes it quite easy for MS to figure out who he is.

Microsoft issues a "no comment" on the allegations regarding the hardware issues in this story. Calls report "unhelpful". However, the word they never used in describing it is "wrong". http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=157748

Microsoft issues a "no comment" on the allegations regarding the hardware issues in this story. Calls report "unhelpful". However, the word they never used in describing it is "wrong". http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=157748

My favorite quote, "The article contains anonymous speculation about hardware issues, and speculating on top of speculation is unhelpful."

I didn't realize you could have two levels of speculation! Holy crap, that blows my mind.

Why can't this thread die?

Fark, doesn't posting this BS get old?

Can't you guys just enjoy the console you have?

Why can't this thread die?

Fark, doesn't posting this BS get old?

Can't you guys just enjoy the console you have?

For me it doesn't get old since this blog had technical information which was similar to what I had gathered from electrical techs I had spoken to in person. Is it crazy to want to be knowledgable on a product's shortcomings before purchasing it? Or how about if it had been a product I previously owned and decided to defect to the competitor due to this shortcoming(s).

I do consider the thought of purchasing a new 360 some day but will hold off on doing so until I feel the issues of the failures on the original models have been fleshed out. If MS fully admitted to the problems and were specific on the issues and occurances, none of these articles would garner any attention. But for obvious reasons, MS won't do that and so the spotlight will remain on the original failures and their causes/rate of occurances. How else does MS regain my trust as a consumer, until I am fully aware of the initial problem so that I can know for sure that the fixes in place are sufficient?

This article has been posted on almost every single site I visit and many of those are non-gaming sites. Why is it so crazy to think it would be discussed in the SD gaming forum???

This article has been posted on almost every single site I visit and many of those are non-gaming sites. Why is it so crazy to think it would be discussed in the SD gaming forum???

Because nobody is discussing anything. This is just another bullshit article used to tr*ll here.

Because nobody is discussing anything. This is just another bullshit article used to tr*ll here.

What exactly is there to discuss at this point? Most 360 Fans will never admidt that any source's info like this is credible because it's not "official" from MS. And since we all know MS will never release any official statement there is always an iron-clad argument already built-in for them. And PS3 Fans will always bring this stuff up because it gets the 360 fans all riled up.

I would say that starting another "360 sucks because of RROD" thread is totally pointless at this point...but this article is newsworthy, whether you agree w/ the content of the article or not.

What exactly is there to discuss at this point? Most 360 Fans will never admidt that any source's info like this is credible because it's not "official" from MS. And since we all know MS will never release any official statement there is always an iron-clad argument already built-in for them. And PS3 Fans will always bring this stuff up because it gets the 360 fans all riled up.
Exactly, which is basically the definition of tr*lling here.

I would say that starting another "360 sucks because of RROD" thread is totally pointless at this point...but this article is newsworthy, whether you agree w/ the content of the article or not.
No this isn't an article. People here give way too much credit towards anonymous sources and blogs.

Because nobody is discussing anything. This is just another bullshit article used to tr*ll here.

I see plenty of "discussion" regarding the article. Perhaps you don't find it useful so you may choose to ignore it, but for some of us who care to explore the issues, we are active in "discussion". If the thread doesn't appeal to you, why bother to post in it? There are many threads on SD about deals which don't pertain to me or my tastes. I don't go posting in threads which "discuss" deals on powertools so how is that any different?

If it'll help keep companies honest or get bad companies to improve themselves, I'm all for it.

I see plenty of "discussion" regarding the article. Perhaps you don't find it useful so you may choose to ignore it, but for some of us who care to explore the issues, we are active in "discussion".
Out of the roughly 65 posts, there are maybe at most 10 that are "discussing" something.

If the thread doesn't appeal to you, why bother to post in it? There are many threads on SD about deals which don't pertain to me or my tastes. I don't go posting in threads which "discuss" deals on powertools so how is that any different?
If you don't see the difference between a deal you don't like and a boderling tr*lling thread, I'm sorry.

Guys, let the truth come out itself. Ofcousre, 360 fanboys will deny it to death, even if they got RROD, or network outage during holidays. Hey, atleast customer service is great and they got a free "crappy" gmae out of it.

Yes godfather927, great discussion going on here. :rolleyes:

Because nobody is discussing anything. This is just another bullshit article used to tr*ll here.

Out of the roughly 65 posts, there are maybe at most 10 that are "discussing" something.

Contradict yourself much?

The last dictionary I checked did not state the term "nobody" equaled 10 people out of 65.

I'll repeat myself again, there is purposeful discussion contained in this thread. Very specific technical details were mentioned in the blog and this was of particular interest to me and a few others who posted in this thread. That alone is enough to be considered useful discussion. If you don't find the information contained in that blog/this thread useful to you, why do you continue to post in it?

Contradict yourself much?

The last dictionary I checked did not state the term "nobody" equaled 10 people out of 65.
Since we are playing semantics and contradictions, "plenty" is roughly <15% to you?

I'll repeat myself again, there is purposeful discussion contained in this thread. Very specific technical details were mentioned in the blog and this was of particular interest to me and a few others who posted in this thread. That alone is enough to be considered useful discussion. If you don't find the information contained in that blog/this thread useful to you, why do you continue to post in it?
Why do people need to tr*ll in this thread? I'm all for purposeful discussion, but the majority of the posts here would hardly qualify as such.

Why do people need to tr*ll in this thread? I'm all for purposeful discussion, but the majority of the posts here would hardly qualify as such.


Probably true, but that would also account for all of your posts in this thread now, too. What's worse, the trolls that bump a thread w/o adding any purposeful discussion or the person that comes in to chastise the trolls and adds nothing to thread, either? Same thing to me.

Probably true, but that would also account for all of your posts in this thread now, too. What's worse, the trolls that bump a thread w/o adding any purposeful discussion or the person that comes in to chastise the trolls and adds nothing to thread, either? Same thing to me.

Probably. With that, let's let this thread die, and if others want to have a meaningful discussion, they should start a new thread.

Probably. With that, let's let this thread die, and if others want to have a meaningful discussion, they should start a new thread.

Why have to start a new thread and have to requote the blog and post links again? As if you don't think some 360 proponents would say "Oh man, ANOTHER thread about the same crappy blog."

This blog is what some of us want to discuss. The bantering about the credibility of the source is what caused this thread to drag on, and who is to blame for that? The trolling/fanboy wars will always overshadow meaningful discussion, so if you feel this thread has degraded into such and is no longer meaningful discussion, why keep bumping it? If you truly wanted to let it die, you wouldn't reiterate how the source is anonymous and has no credibility and his claims are unfounded and blah blah blah. If you want it to die, don't post in it.

Why have to start a new thread and have to requote the blog and post links again?
There are two links that pertain to this topic, the response by the blogger and Microsoft's response. I didn't know 3 links were that hard to post. :rolleyes:

As if you don't think some 360 proponents would say "Oh man, ANOTHER thread about the same crappy blog."
I pretty sure tr*ll posts would come before any post remotely close to that.

This blog is what some of us want to discuss. The bantering about the credibility of the source is what caused this thread to drag on, and who is to blame for that?
The tr*lls.

The trolling/fanboy wars will always overshadow meaningful discussion, so if you feel this thread has degraded into such and is no longer meaningful discussion, why keep bumping it? If you truly wanted to let it die, you wouldn't reiterate how the source is anonymous and has no credibility and his claims are unfounded and blah blah blah. If you want it to die, don't post in it.
Because me not posting will not cause this thread to die.

There are two links that pertain to this topic, the response by the blogger and Microsoft's response. I didn't know 3 links were that hard to post. :rolleyes:


I pretty sure tr*ll posts would come before any post remotely close to that.


The tr*lls.


Because me not posting will not cause this thread to die.


Ohhh ok, so since you initially said you wanted the thread to die, but then say you are powerless to stop it so you then just keep on posting and keeping it alive... nice logic chief.

If you want to have meaningful and insightful discussion regarding the blog, then do so.

Ohhh ok, so since you initially said you wanted the thread to die, but then say you are powerless to stop it so you then just keep on posting and keeping it alive... nice logic chief.
What are you talking about? I do want this thread to die, but I will reply to posts when posted. There is nothing flawed there. I can still want the thread to die and post.

And do you seriously believe that if I stop posting it will die? Sounds like someone's logic is flawed. :rolleyes:

But, hey, if you don't post and no one else does also, then I won't post and this thread will die. :woot:

If you want to have meaningful and insightful discussion regarding the blog, then do so.
I never said I wanted to. If you want to, I suggest you tell the tr*lls to stop.

What are you talking about? I do want this thread to die, but I will reply to posts when posted. There is nothing flawed there. I can still want the thread to die and post.

And do you seriously believe that if I stop posting it will die? Sounds like someone's logic is flawed. :rolleyes:

But, hey, if you don't post and no one else does also, then I won't post and this thread will die. :woot:


I never said I wanted to. If you want to, I suggest you tell the tr*lls to stop.

I'm all for purposeful discussion, but the majority of the posts here would hardly qualify as such.

Hmm, first you say you're all for purposeful discussion yet you then say you never wanted to have it. Yeah that makes sense.

And you suggested that I tell the trolls to stop, so I will.... Stop trolling paperboy05

Well again, I think you've made a fool of yourself for far too long now and I can't stand to witness anymore so this will be my last post in this thread directed towards you, good day. :wave:

Hmm, first you say you're all for purposeful discussion yet you then say you never wanted to have it. Yeah that makes sense.
So I can't agree with purposeful discussion even if I don't want to personally participate? Yeah that makes sense. :rolleyes:

And you suggested that I tell the trolls to stop, so I will.... Stop trolling paperboy05
How am I trolling?

Well again, I think you've made a fool of yourself for far too long now and I can't stand to witness anymore so this will be my last post in this thread directed towards you, good day. :wave:
:lol: You have mistakenly claimed at least three things against me and then you are calling me a fool. Wow, you are too much. I guess I shouldn't have expected much more from you.

So I can't agree with purposeful discussion even if I don't want to personally participate? Yeah that makes sense. :rolleyes:


How am I trolling?


:lol: You have mistakenly claimed at least three things against me and then you are calling me a fool. Wow, you are too much. I guess I shouldn't have expected much more from you.

10 bucks to the first guy to count the number of times troll was said in the last two pages! :woot:

10 bucks to the first guy to count the number of times troll was said in the last two pages! :woot:

Including quotes: 25. Now where's my money? :lol:

I'm sure that when you counter-google-stalked me you probably noticed I keep all these discussions limited to this board only, at least 99% of it.

You GoogleStalk me, I GoogleStalk you.
Would you expect any less, sir?


And as I've said before,
IF THIS INFORMATION IS ACCURATE WHY HASN'T ANYONE DONE ANY ACTUAL RESEARCH INTO THE NUMBERS BEHIND 360 FAILURE RATES?

New anonymous source = not news.

Someone doing a thorough poll of 360 owners = news.

Sorry to butt in here with a totally n00bish question, but the Xbox 360 Elite I got my son for Christmas from buy.com has experienced the RROD a couple of times, which went away by unplugging it. I remember reading in other threads that there was a way to determine what type of problematic [processor? part? whatever] inside of the 360...can someone tell me how to do that? I'm curious as to what kind we got.

Thanks!

EDIT: NVM, 3 flat copper-wrapped doughnuts indicate it's a Zephyr....whatever that means.

You GoogleStalk me, I GoogleStalk you.
Would you expect any less, sir?

Well you can stop flattering yourself, because I have not googled your name once. And that's a fact.

And as I've said before,
IF THIS INFORMATION IS ACCURATE WHY HASN'T ANYONE DONE ANY ACTUAL RESEARCH INTO THE NUMBERS BEHIND 360 FAILURE RATES?

New anonymous source = not news.

Someone doing a thorough poll of 360 owners = news.

Because only Microsoft has the ability to cull a significant enough amount of data, and you know it. Any other sources, like people from major retailers who at least see a more significant sample than the "me and everyone I know" crowd, are immediately denounced by you clowns as random, biased, and unreliable.

And with Paperboy05 finally flaring up like a maniac over this with more 100% flat denial, I'm really starting to wonder if he isn't one of these MS moles on a viral campaign. If not, I'm sure they appreciate his free, unpaid support.

And with Paperboy05 finally flaring up like a maniac over this with more 100% flat denial, I'm really starting to wonder if he isn't one of these MS moles on a viral campaign. If not, I'm sure they appreciate his free, unpaid support.
And Phreaker with more of his 100% misrepresentation/misposting. Great to see he hasn't stopped his BS posting. :woot:

Even then you might get RROD, it is very likely that you will.

You were doing so good until you posted this BS.

Because only Microsoft has the ability to cull a significant enough amount of data, and you know it. Any other sources, like people from major retailers who at least see a more significant sample than the "me and everyone I know" crowd, are immediately denounced by you clowns as random, biased, and unreliable.

Really?
It would be impossible for, say, EGM, to obtain a list of people who have bought the Xbox 360 and then call up 500 of them to ask what their experiences with RRoD were and publish an article about their findings?

Why would that be impossible to do when polls like that are done about different subjects every day?

My favorite quote, "The article contains anonymous speculation about hardware issues, and speculating on top of speculation is unhelpful."

I didn't realize you could have two levels of speculation! Holy crap, that blows my mind.

More interesting is that MS themselves don't want to engage in speculation about themselves? As if they themselves don't know? Oh sure. Hey, that reminds me, I was wondering if I took a shit this morning. I'm not sure, so I can only speculate!

There's three things they can do: tell the truth, "no comment", or lie. There is no speculation.

Really?
It would be impossible for, say, EGM, to obtain a list of people who have bought the Xbox 360 and then call up 500 of them to ask what their experiences with RRoD were and publish an article about their findings?

Why would that be impossible to do when polls like that are done about different subjects every day?

You guys would pick that apart in a heartbeat.

"Where did they get their 'list'?"
"Oh great, more random anonymous people"
"Only people that had problems gave them their phone number / email"

and so on.

YOU GUYS HAVE SAID THESE KINDS OF THINGS YOURSELVES COUNTLESS TIMES, including "only MS knows".

"Only people that had problems gave them their phone number / email"

YOU GUYS HAVE SAID THESE KINDS OF THINGS YOURSELVES COUNTLESS TIMES, including "only MS knows".

Who said that line?

What reason would someone want to put the financial resources and manpower into doing a scientific study to identify failure rate? I just don't see what the gain would be for anyone, other than to put to rest this issue. And I doubt EGM would be interested in undertaking a study that could potentially devastate the system that produces a good portion of their advertising and reviews.

:lol: You have mistakenly claimed at least three things against me and then you are calling me a fool. Wow, you are too much. I guess I shouldn't have expected much more from you.

Because he's the type to derive some sort of conclusion, state as though it were fact and stop talking when asked to verify such claim with logic and/or facts. Or, maybe because he's an EE (and feels it's necessary to tell everyone).

Because he's the type to derive some sort of conclusion, state as though it were fact and stop talking when asked to verify such claim with logic and/or facts. Or, maybe because he's an EE (and feels it's necessary to tell everyone).

:teehee:

And with Paperboy05 finally flaring up like a maniac over this with more 100% flat denial, I'm really starting to wonder if he isn't one of these MS moles on a viral campaign. If not, I'm sure they appreciate his free, unpaid support.

Seriously, has he ever once, just once, posted something other than petty arguments or rabid MS defense? Not that I've seen, so I present to you:

How to be paperboy05 in 4 easy steps
1) Break posts down to one line at a time so as to more easily nitpick.
2) If other user's post makes too much sense, resort to grammar flames and circular logic.
3) Talk down to the other poster so as to look smart, even if my posts make no sense, aren't in context or contradict my previous posts.
4) File report to MS letting them know how many threads were successfully redirected into a nitpicking flame war.

He was the reason I found the ignore function, but I still have to see his threadcrapping posts in replies, so it doesn't really do much good. It would really be better if no one acknowledged his posts since he's never added a reply with his own detailed, helpful thoughts or brought up a topic for discussion that I've seen. While JP gets all riled up and overzealous, at least he will usually write out a detailed opinion and concede the occasional point in the course of a discussion.

I'm with Phreaker47, paperboy05 looks very suspicious.

You guys would pick that apart in a heartbeat.

"Where did they get their 'list'?"
"Oh great, more random anonymous people"
"Only people that had problems gave them their phone number / email"

and so on.

YOU GUYS HAVE SAID THESE KINDS OF THINGS YOURSELVES COUNTLESS TIMES, including "only MS knows".



This is total bullshit, and you know it.

You're not an idiot, and I know you don't have short-term memory loss problems.
I have stated repeatedly and emphatically that I want some group outside of Microsoft to do an investigation into the matter by calling people from a list of registered 360 owners, the same as is done when pollsters get data about elections and the like.

On top of that EGM is an incredibly reputable source.
They'd be the perfect people to have do something like this, and I don't think anyone would seriously argue with whatever results they got.


Why do you insist on repeating things you know aren't true?

Who said that line?

"these kinds of things" is what I said. You should know better than anyone, as you are the primary source around here.

This story is spreading everywhere and I don't think this guy is going away quietly, with all his talk about contacting legal firms and offering his assistance as well as seeking theirs.

Although I sympathize with his wish to keep his identity hidden from the public (not MS), I kind of hope he does go public anyway, voluntarily or not... at least it would shut up the people that are convinced he is an out-and-out fraud. Of course, they could just move on to other scenarios attacking his motives and such. Deny till you die.

What reason would someone want to put the financial resources and manpower into doing a scientific study to identify failure rate? I just don't see what the gain would be for anyone, other than to put to rest this issue. And I doubt EGM would be interested in undertaking a study that could potentially devastate the system that produces a good portion of their advertising and reviews.


What reason would someone want to do any kind of polling at all?
What reason would someone want to do political polling?
What reason would someone want to do investigative journalism about anything?

It's a story that a lot of people are interested in, and that would generate a lot of publicity for whoever did it. You'd sell more magazines/papers, get more people to visit your website, etc etc.

Removed, post was not necessary.

What reason would someone want to do any kind of polling at all?
What reason would someone want to do political polling?
What reason would someone want to do investigative journalism about anything?

It's a story that a lot of people are interested in, and that would generate a lot of publicity for whoever did it. You'd sell more magazines/papers, get more people to visit your website, etc etc.

Polling to possibly damage the reputation of a system you cover and, essentially support, is a conflict of interest, in my opinion. You think they'd want to risk alienating the 360 and then having advertising pulled, like what has happened in another thread after giving a bad review to a game?

And how are you going to compare the polling system for electing government officials to the manufacturing defects, or lack thereof, of a consumer electronics product?

Polling to possibly damage the reputation of a system you cover and, essentially support, is a conflict of interest, in my opinion. You think they'd want to risk alienating the 360 and then having advertising pulled, like what has happened in another thread after giving a bad review to a game?

And how are you going to compare the polling system for electing government officials to the manufacturing defects, or lack thereof, of a consumer electronics product?

So not EGM.
Why not Consumer Reports, or Popular Science, or some other rag that lots of gamers read or could pick up off the newsstands or check out on the web? EGM is just an example, one of thousands of publications that easily have the resources to poll a few hundred people. There's no need to fixate on EGM in particular.

And how are you going to not compare the polling?
All polling works through a representative sample group being questioned and then extrapolating the data.

You're not an idiot, and I know you don't have short-term memory loss problems.


Nice to see you being a little more sly about the pot-use references now.


I have stated repeatedly and emphatically that I want some group outside of Microsoft to do an investigation into the matter by calling people from a list of registered 360 owners, the same as is done when pollsters get data about elections and the like.


As much as it pains me to agree w/ you on anything, I do recall you going on record w/ this multiple times.


On top of that EGM is an incredibly reputable source.
They'd be the perfect people to have do something like this, and I don't think anyone would seriously argue with whatever results they got.


I do agree that EGM is a legit source and your sample size mentioned earlier of ~500 is actually very accurate to what you would need based on the total install base of 16mil+. At this point, however, I don't see why EGM or any other major source would want to do it. Everyone who follows gaming already knows that it was a huge problem. Does it really matter if we are able to put an "exact" % to it at this point? I don't think so. Something for fanboys on both sides to argue about some more, but not much beyond that. If we haven't seen anything done by now, I doubt we ever will.

Seriously, has he ever once, just once, posted something other than petty arguments or rabid MS defense?
Yes
Not that I've seen,
Must be tough not being able to see.

so I present to you:

How to be paperboy05 in 4 easy steps
1) Break posts down to one line at a time so as to more easily nitpick.
So it is petty to break apart posts point by point?

2) If other user's post makes too much sense, resort to grammar flames and circular logic.
Ha. I only do this when others resort to it first. Such as godfather trying to point out a contradiction.

3) Talk down to the other poster so as to look smart, even if my posts make no sense, aren't in context or contradict my previous posts.
Again, only do this when others talk down on me.

4) File report to MS letting them know how many threads were successfully redirected into a nitpicking flame war.
:woot: I wish I would get paid by Microsoft.

But anyways, how's the SDF (http://www.sonydefenseforce.com/) treating you?

He was the reason I found the ignore function, but I still have to see his threadcrapping posts in replies, so it doesn't really do much good.
Christ, threadcrapping? You really don't know how to read/comprehend do you? But I guess posting a dissenting opinion in the multiple Anti-360 e-orgies around here could technically be considered "threadcrapping".

It would really be better if no one acknowledged his posts since he's never added a reply with his own detailed, helpful thoughts or brought up a topic for discussion that I've seen.
:rofl2:

While JP gets all riled up and overzealous, at least he will usually write out a detailed opinion and concede the occasional point in the course of a discussion.
How does it feel being blind?

I'm with Phreaker47, paperboy05 looks very suspicious.
There's a surpise. :rolleyes:

Everyone who follows gaming already knows that it was a huge problem.

Compared to other problems, sure. Overall, probably not.

Polling to possibly damage the reputation of a system you cover and, essentially support, is a conflict of interest, in my opinion. You think they'd want to risk alienating the 360 and then having advertising pulled, like what has happened in another thread after giving a bad review to a game?

And how are you going to compare the polling system for electing government officials to the manufacturing defects, or lack thereof, of a consumer electronics product?

Exactly right. Asking for this is pie in the sky. The answer to all the "Why would anyone" questions ultimately involve more publicity and/or profit, not the certain loss of it, which would be the case here.

Not to make myself sound prophetic as it was more of a happy coincidence, but I recently stated my hope that a Microsoft insider would eventually reveal the true information and fully establish the credibility of that information, as that would be the only real-world way we would find out. And yes, I do realize that this person has not fully met all of that criteria yet.

So not EGM.
Why not Consumer Reports, or Popular Science, or some other rag that lots of gamers read or could pick up off the newsstands or check out on the web? EGM is just an example, one of thousands of publications that easily have the resources to poll a few hundred people. There's no need to fixate on EGM in particular.

And how are you going to not compare the polling?
All polling works through a representative sample group being questioned and then extrapolating the data.

Hey, I know, how about a Microsoft insider? Oh wait, we got one.

I do agree that EGM is a legit source and your sample size mentioned earlier of ~500 is actually very accurate to what you would need based on the total install base of 16mil+. At this point, however, I don't see why EGM or any other major source would want to do it. Everyone who follows gaming already knows that it was a huge problem. Does it really matter if we are able to put an "exact" % to it at this point? I don't think so. Something for fanboys on both sides to argue about some more, but not much beyond that. If we haven't seen anything done by now, I doubt we ever will.

It wouldn't "matter" but people would be interested.
I mean, honestly, if a real poll was done every console fanboy on earth would be linking to that website. There'd be weeks, if not months, of dramatically increased web traffic for the publisher, which would lead to better visitation statistics which would lead to more advertising dollars.

As I've said before the only reason I can figure why this hasn't been done is that the results aren't very interesting.
If they were 30% or higher it'd be a huge story about the failure of a gigantic American corporation and totally interesting.
If they were around 5% or less it'd be a great story about how online trolling resulted in widespread misinformation reported by multiple media outlets.
If it was around 15% it would be right in the middle, totally boring, and not much of a story.

The real number for launch Xbox 360s is probably around 10-16%, with the number for the new units probably being between 3-5%. Slightly higher than normal, but not high enough to warrant a recall or to be a very interesting story.

Do I have any proof? Of course not. But the lack of serious reporting about this is a better indication of the truth than a couple of disgruntled ex-employees.

Hey, I know, how about a Microsoft insider? Oh wait, we got one.

How do you know? Do you know the blogger? If I told you I was a Microsoft insider (which seems to be the assumption around here), would you beleive me? Or do you just believe this anonymous source because he is saying what you want to hear? (why you want to hear it so bad? I have no idea)

Hey, I know, how about a Microsoft insider? Oh wait, we got one.

Stop playing dumb.
1 disgruntled ex-employee =/= poll of several hundred registered users

You know this.
Stop the bullshit.

It wouldn't "matter" but people would be interested.
I mean, honestly, if a real poll was done every console fanboy on earth would be linking to that website. There'd be weeks, if not months, of dramatically increased web traffic for the publisher, which would lead to better visitation statistics which would lead to more advertising dollars.

As I've said before the only reason I can figure why this hasn't been done is that the results aren't very interesting.
If they were 30% or higher it'd be a huge story about the failure of a gigantic American corporation and totally interesting.
If they were around 5% or less it'd be a great story about how online trolling resulted in widespread misinformation reported by multiple media outlets.
If it was around 15% it would be right in the middle, totally boring, and not much of a story.

The real number for launch Xbox 360s is probably around 10-16%, with the number for the new units probably being between 3-5%. Slightly higher than normal, but not high enough to warrant a recall or to be a very interesting story.

Do I have any proof? Of course not. But the lack of serious reporting about this is a better indication of the truth than a couple of disgruntled ex-employees.

You're nothing but a Microsoft insider paid to spread misinformation and troll SlickDeals. :crazylaf:

Stop playing dumb.
1 disgruntled ex-employee =/= poll of several hundred registered users

You know this.
Stop the bullshit.

What you're asking for is bullshit.

Are you suggesting that somebody like Consumer Reports go out and buy 500 or more consoles, making sure they are Zephyrs, and then test all of these units over at least one full year to come up with a number? That's not a "poll", that's a major undertaking, both in time and money. And it's not at all typical of the kinds of things they do.

Or the true "poll" route: would they gather 500 existing 360 owners and just ask them if they've had RROD(s)? That opens up all the cans of worms already covered. You can pick it apart with simple questions like, "how were these people chosen", "how do you know they aren't sony fanboys just lying", and so on. And you guys would be leading the charge.

phreaker, man don't waste your energy fighting xbots... you know machines can't reason! it's either 1 or 0

Wow. You are farking joking right? If there was anything remotely close to reason on the PSuckers (I love pointless name calling) side, I will buy you all a PS3. :rolleyes:

What you're asking for is bullshit.

No it isn't.
Polls of this kind are done every day.


Are you suggesting that somebody like Consumer Reports go out and buy 500 or more consoles, making sure they are Zephyrs, and then test all of these units over at least one full year to come up with a number? That's not a "poll", that's a major undertaking, both in time and money. And it's not at all typical of the kinds of things they do.

You're read this thread, you know that isn't what I'm asking for.
Is it really this difficult for you to stop posting things you know are false?
I asked for a poll of around 500 registered Xbox 360 owners, a number that's roughly the same as the number of registered voters that are called in political polls.



Or the true "poll" route: would they gather 500 existing 360 owners and just ask them if they've had RROD(s)? That opens up all the cans of worms already covered. You can pick it apart with simple questions like, "how were these people chosen", "how do you know they aren't sony fanboys just lying", and so on. And you guys would be leading the charge.

If I was planning on picking it apart, why would I be asking for it?
Can you stop trying to use your crystal ball for a minute and take the time to notice that it's pretty weird that no consumer group or investigative journal has done a serious story about this yet, two years after the 360 was launched?
Sure, some people would argue with it. Some people will argue with anything, and even go so far as to repeatedly and knowingly make false statements. But a serious poll from a reputable source would go a long way towards ending these moronic arguments once and for all.

I asked for a poll of around 500 registered Xbox 360 owners, a number that's roughly the same as the number of registered voters that are called in political polls.

I would say 1000 or more would be more scientific and useful.

I would say 1000 or more would be more scientific and useful.

Well, the larger the sample group the more accurate the data, but if you suggest a number above 500 you're going to get certain people saying that it's IMPOSSIBLE and that it CAN'T POSSIBLY BE DONE.

500 is large enough that it would be significant, but small enough that it wouldn't be a huge undertaking.

Who are these "registered Xbox 360 users" out there? I'm a 360 owner and I never filled out my official 360 owner registration card. The only thing I can think of would be people registered on XBL, but even then, how would a third party get that information? And then, how can you verify hardware version, whether or not they had the error, whether or not the error was caused by overheating, what caused the overheating (user error or manufacturer error?), etc.

Basically, a semi-formal poll of who you're voting for is not the same as an in depth scientific analysis of electronics QC. And I still stick to my story that I don't believe it's in any third party organization's interest to devote resources and funding towards this. It might be of great interest to the rabid people that post on internet forums, but I don't see the financial interest in it. I think the most you're going to see is an informal, anecdotal, non-scientific website poll. I liked to a couple of these sites a week or so ago but was immediately blasted for not being good enough.

:woot: I wish I would get paid by Microsoft.

Glad you responded. Thanks for proving everything I said about your posting style. And thanks for continuing to contribute nothing besides baiting people into arguments and defending MS like it was your mother.

Glad you responded.
Glad to see I'm not longer on ignore. :woot:

Thanks for proving everything I said about your posting style. And thanks for continuing to contribute nothing besides baiting people into arguments
Are you talking about your post? :nod: Or are you just trying to show your lack of contribution and bait tactics?

and defending MS like it was your mother.
Would you prefer I insulted Microsoft like it was mother? :crazylaf:

Who are these "registered Xbox 360 users" out there? I'm a 360 owner and I never filled out my official 360 owner registration card.

That would be the toughest aspect of it.

Who are these "registered Xbox 360 users" out there? I'm a 360 owner and I never filled out my official 360 owner registration card. The only thing I can think of would be people registered on XBL, but even then, how would a third party get that information? And then, how can you verify hardware version, whether or not they had the error, whether or not the error was caused by overheating, what caused the overheating (user error or manufacturer error?), etc.

Basically, a semi-formal poll of who you're voting for is not the same as an in depth scientific analysis of electronics QC. And I still stick to my story that I don't believe it's in any third party organization's interest to devote resources and funding towards this. It might be of great interest to the rabid people that post on internet forums, but I don't see the financial interest in it. I think the most you're going to see is an informal, anecdotal, non-scientific website poll. I liked to a couple of these sites a week or so ago but was immediately blasted for not being good enough.


1) Not registering your console in this case would be analogous to not being a registered voter, so unfortunately you wouldn't count. Political polls question registered voters, not just average Joes on the street.

2) Who cares if it's the same as an in-depth scientific analysis? :dontknow:
An in-depth scientific analysis would never be done by an outside source because that IS an outrageous demand and would cost a hell of a lot of money. Asking for something like that is absurd at best.

3) Did you read my post about the financial reasons to do a poll like this?
The financial benefit in this is the same as the financial benefit of any investigative journalism. The cost of getting a list of registered Xbox 360 owners and randomly polling 500 people would be much lower than the benefit of the tremendous increase in web traffic and linkage that the site publishing the report would get. Increased traffic means they can get more advertisers and ask those advertisers for more money.

Wow. You are farking joking right? If there was anything remotely close to reason on the PSuckers (I love pointless name calling) side, I will buy you all a PS3. :rolleyes:



We actually prefer "PSthreetards," as JP put it the other day.

I would say 1000 or more would be more scientific and useful.


No, actually 500 or less would be more accurate based on the 16mil+ 360 install base.

We actually prefer "PSthreetards," as JP put it the other day.

Apologies, :hug:



No, actually 500 or less would be more accurate based on the 16mil+ 360 install base.
:huh: How would less people polled be more accurate when extrapolated towards ~16 million?

We actually prefer "PSthreetards," as JP put it the other day.

There are a lot of better names for console fanboys of all systems out there, but unfortunately most of them would result in warnings from the mods. :lol:

Sad that apparently which video game system you purchase defines who you are as a person.

Apologies, :hug:




:huh: How would less people polled be more accurate when extrapolated towards ~16 million?



Actually, the larger your population (and the 16mil is very large by pop standards) the less people you actually need to sample to make them representative of the total pop. So, technically, I misspoke...1000 would not be less accurate but it would not be any more accurate than the 500 when you are speaking about a pop base as large as 16mil.

Actually, the larger your population (and the 16mil is very large by pop standards) the less people you actually need to sample to make them representative of the total pop. So, technically, I misspoke...1000 would not be less accurate but it would not be any more accurate than the 500 when you are speaking about a pop base as large as 16mil.

It would have to be more accurate, otherwise national polls would just stick to 500 people instead of the >1000 that is usually used. Otherwise do you have a link to show otherwise. I'm truly curious, because I might have been told wrong.

Sad that apparently which video game system you purchase defines who you are as a person.

Only when it comes to the 360 and PS3 apparently.
Nintendo fanboys keep their noses relatively clean.

It would have to be more accurate, otherwise national polls would just stick to 500 people instead of the >1000 that is usually used. Otherwise do you have a link to show otherwise. I'm truly curious, because I might have been told wrong.


This will explain it better than I could:

If your population consists of just a few hundred people, you might find that you need to survey almost all of them in order to achieve the level of accuracy that you desire. As the population size increases, the percentage of people needed to achieve a high level of accuracy decreases rapidly.
In other words, to achieve the same level of accuracy:
Larger population = Smaller percentage of people surveyed
Smaller population = Larger percentage of people surveyed

http://www.custominsight.com/articles/random-sampling.asp



And this is a link I use periodically to determine proper sample sizes (I work in Market Research).

http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm

It would have to be more accurate, otherwise national polls would just stick to 500 people instead of the >1000 that is usually used. Otherwise do you have a link to show otherwise. I'm truly curious, because I might have been told wrong.

It depends on how accurate you want your percentage to be. If it was b/t say 40% and 39%, then 1000 would be necessary, but seeing as how most people are arguing that it's either 30% or 15%, then 500 should suffice. Unless of course you want to know the exact failure rate down to the .00000000001%, then a bigger sample would be necessary.

This will explain it better than I could:

If your population consists of just a few hundred people, you might find that you need to survey almost all of them in order to achieve the level of accuracy that you desire. As the population size increases, the percentage of people needed to achieve a high level of accuracy decreases rapidly.
In other words, to achieve the same level of accuracy:
Larger population = Smaller percentage of people surveyed
Smaller population = Larger percentage of people surveyed

http://www.custominsight.com/articles/random-sampling.asp
I guess I was assuming a ~3% margin of error. And using the calculator from the link:

Error: 3%
Population: 10,000,000 (conservative estimate for registered users)
90% Confidence: 756
95% Confidence: 1067
99% Confidence: 1843

Thanks for the links BTW.

Only when it comes to the 360 and PS3 apparently.
Nintendo fanboys keep their noses relatively clean.


They know better than to try to enter the fray w/ their souped-up Game Cubes.

They know better than to try to enter the fray w/ their souped-up Game Cubes.

But... but... the innovation! :lmao:

Only when it comes to the 360 and PS3 apparently.
Nintendo fanboys keep their noses relatively clean.

What if you've owned both a 360 and a PS3?

Is that enough to be considered an unbiased perspective?

What if you've owned both a 360 and a PS3?

Is that enough to be considered an unbiased perspective?

Of course not.

If someone used to work for Nike and then started working for Adidas and told you that Adidas was the best company in the world and that Nike shoes were deadly and made by pregnant children in the Taliban would you believe them?

Of course not.

If someone used to work for Nike and then started working for Adidas and told you that Adidas was the best company in the world and that Nike shoes were deadly and made by pregnant children in the Taliban would you believe them?


I think your analogy is laughable but I won't bother to get into why because I'd be falling for your bait so I'll go another route.

Ok... so would it make a difference if someone currently owns both consoles?

Would that then make them an unbiased perspective?

I think your analogy is laughable but I won't bother to get into why because I'd be falling for your bait so I'll go another route.

Ok... so would it make a difference if someone currently owns both consoles?

Would that then make them an unbiased perspective?


Of course the analogy is laughable.
It's a joke. Lighten up! :lol:


It depends on the person, and what you consider to be "biased."
I own a 360 and a Wii, and I don't like the Wii very much. Most people say I'm biased against it, and they're probably right.

If I was planning on picking it apart, why would I be asking for it?
Can you stop trying to use your crystal ball for a minute and take the time to notice that it's pretty weird that no consumer group or investigative journal has done a serious story about this yet, two years after the 360 was launched?
Sure, some people would argue with it. Some people will argue with anything, and even go so far as to repeatedly and knowingly make false statements. But a serious poll from a reputable source would go a long way towards ending these moronic arguments once and for all.

Let's just say I don't have great confidence that, considering your history, you'd suddenly embrace this like you claim, especially if the result happened to corroborate 30% claims. Call me untrusting if you must.

They know better than to try to enter the fray w/ their souped-up Game Cubes.

Since we're hardware bashing, those with XB360s and PS3s are cowed by anyone with a decent gaming PC in terms of rendering capability/graphics quality. Not to mention KB/M controls are better for FPS than dual analog; it's much, much faster and more precise, so there's no debate. So gaming PCs have them on both fronts.

Or, you know, we could just play games an not worry about who's e-peen is bigger. But I don't think we'll do that. :)

Let's just say I don't have great confidence that, considering your history, you'd suddenly embrace this like you claim, especially if the result happened to corroborate 30% claims. Call me untrusting if you must.

Even if the results corroborated a 10% return rate (which is extremely realistic and probably too low), it's incredibly unacceptable for a consumer electronics product.

The whole crux of this argument is kind of silly. "How shitty is XB360 quality? Very shitty or ridiculously shitty?". Pick your side and fight to the death!

How do you know? Do you know the blogger? If I told you I was a Microsoft insider (which seems to be the assumption around here), would you beleive me? Or do you just believe this anonymous source because he is saying what you want to hear? (why you want to hear it so bad? I have no idea)

Couldn't resist replying to this one.

I'd believe you, but then again I'm the one came up with the idea that you were a MS employee.

=p

Even if the results corroborated a 10% return rate (which is extremely realistic and probably too low), it's incredibly unacceptable for a consumer electronics product.

The whole crux of this argument is kind of silly. "How shitty is XB360 quality? Very shitty or ridiculously shitty?". Pick your side and fight to the death!

:worship:

Even if the results corroborated a 10% return rate (which is extremely realistic and probably too low), it's incredibly unacceptable for a consumer electronics product.

The whole crux of this argument is kind of silly. "How shitty is XB360 quality? Very shitty or ridiculously shitty?". Pick your side and fight to the death!

:lmao::lmao:

Another thing about this 'credible source' doing the survey is that... how many truly credible sources out there care about online gamers arguing about their e-peen's on the internet?

I saw one on G4 the other day about RRoD, but I think that or a gaming magazine would be the best it gets. And even then there would be holes in the survey

Fanboys = People with no lives, who care for a company who only cares about your money and get all defensive when threatened. 3/4 of the posts in this thread is utter garbage and kinda sad. I dont understand when people get so defensive when it comes to a particular company. It really goes with all things and not just consoles. Ford vs Chevy, Mitsubishi vs Subaru, Coke vs Pepsi etc...THESES COMPANIES ONLY CARE ABOUT YOUR MONEY. STOP DOING PR WORK FOR SOMEONE WHO CAN CARELESS ABOUT YOU.

On topic. I think when people said MS would be the only legit source to actually disprove/prove the failure rate is at 30% is true. Any other company couldnt and wouldnt be legit. There really is too much to nit pick at when doing a poll like this. The only real way to find out is through the system MS is using to control all the RROD warranty replacements. At this point any poll done by any other company isnt reliable in the "consumers/fanboys eyes". I myself would find if EGM did a poll it would be incorrect because theres no way to get in hold of every single xbox360 owner. Picking only 500 people would not work considering I know some people who gotten the RROD multiple times and having couple of those kind of people would already mess it up. The 1 thing that i dont understand is, if the failure rate isnt really and wasnt anywhere near 30% why wouldnt MS flat out deny it and just say what it really is, be it 5% 10% 20% or whatever. Wouldnt that be the simple way to squash this debate considering MS is already hit with the bad PR why doesnt MS not want to kill it?

Let's just say I don't have great confidence that, considering your history, you'd suddenly embrace this like you claim, especially if the result happened to corroborate 30% claims. Call me untrusting if you must.

Considering my history of what?
My history of asking for this study to be done?
My history of saying that the number is definitely higher than MS reports but probably not a high as 30%?

What about your history of lying? Should I just reference that every time you make a post?

:lmao::lmao:

Another thing about this 'credible source' doing the survey is that... how many truly credible sources out there care about online gamers arguing about their e-peen's on the internet?


How many truly credible sources out there care about a giant company like Microsoft or the multi-billion dollar video game industry?

I'd wager to say that the majority of credible sources do.

How many truly credible sources out there care about a giant company like Microsoft or the multi-billion dollar video game industry?

I'd wager to say that the majority of credible sources do.

Which is why they would report on the $1billion move and share some personal anecdotes, maybe reflect on it's effect on the market.

I don't see much motivation to go beyond that to a bulletproof survey

Even if the results corroborated a 10% return rate (which is extremely realistic and probably too low), it's incredibly unacceptable for a consumer electronics product.

The whole crux of this argument is kind of silly. "How shitty is XB360 quality? Very shitty or ridiculously shitty?". Pick your side and fight to the death!
:rofl2:

that was awesome

Considering my history of what?
My history of asking for this study to be done?
Your history of shouting "anecdotal evidence!" to previous testimonial, which could also easily be applied to what you are asking for now because the legitimacy of 500 respondents could all be shot down by similar criteria. I fail to see how a certain magazine or other entity collecting these answers would lend any more legitimacy to somebody that could possibly lie to them just as easily as they could possibly be lying on a message board.

My history of saying that the number is definitely higher than MS reports but probably not a high as 30%?

"Probably" not? So there's a chance you say...

What about your history of lying? Should I just reference that every time you make a post?

I'm assuming you are referring to how you believe I am mis-characterizing you. I respectfully disagree.

YOU WILL REJECT ANYTHING ANYONE SAYS NO MATTER WHAT!

I AM NOT BASING THIS ON ANYTHING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED IN THE PAST HOWEVER I AM GOING TO PRETEND THAT I AM.
AT THE SAME TIME I WILL GROSSLY MISCHARACTERIZE ANYONE WHO HAS AN OPINION DIFFERENT THAN MY OWN AND CONSTANTLY MISQUOTE THEM AND ATTRIBUTE IDEAS TO THEM THAT THEY HAVE NEVER ESPOUSED.

Go right ahead.
The only person you actually make look bad with your lies and misrepresentations is yourself.

The whole crux of this argument is kind of silly. "How shitty is XB360 quality? Very shitty or ridiculously shitty?". Pick your side and fight to the death!

+1 :worship:

I'm on my 3rd 360. But would I trade it for a PS3? Hell no! The main reason is the PS3's online option is rather lacking. The Xbox Live is the number one reason I will probably never buy a PS3 (that and I think its ridiculous to take it from behind from Sony with their completely unnecessary built in Blu-Ray drive just to push their format).

Hell, I thought the reliability on the original Xbox sucked with flashing red rings and I had to replace 2 DVD drives and one hard drive. Ugh!

I'm on my 3rd 360.

I think its ridiculous to take it from behind from Sony with their completely unnecessary built in Blu-Ray drive just to push their format).

I really should resist... but I can't.

So you don't want to "take it from behind" from Sony by buying a competitively priced console that offers built in wi-fi (an extra $90 from your pals @ MS), a built in HD drive (extra capacity for games + HD movies), 1080P resolution capability and motion control, none of which are standard 360 features. But you're happy to take it from behind from MS and be without your $350 console for weeks at a time, so you can pay them to play online. And something tells me they don't credit your XBL subscription for the time your 360 is under repair.

Man, I need to find a business where I can screw over my customers and they fight for my right to do it, despite the competition offering a better featured product and better reliability. MS is looking pretty genius for building up XBL, huh?

I really should resist... but I can't.

So you don't want to "take it from behind" from Sony by buying a competitively priced console that offers built in wi-fi (an extra $90 from your pals @ MS), a built in HD drive (extra capacity for games + HD movies), 1080P resolution capability and motion control, none of which are standard 360 features. But you're happy to take it from behind from MS and be without your $350 console for weeks at a time, so you can pay them to play online. And something tells me they don't credit your XBL subscription for the time your 360 is under repair.

Man, I need to find a business where I can screw over my customers and they fight for my right to do it, despite the competition offering a better featured product and better reliability. MS is looking pretty genius for building up XBL, huh?

It's getting to the scariness of the WoW addicts. Blizzard could sell them an expansion pack in which all the execs would defecate into a box then toss in the game disc and all the WoWers would gladly lick the feces off the disc to be able to play their newest worlds or levels or whatever their called.

It's getting to the scariness of the WoW addicts. Blizzard could sell them an expansion pack in which all the execs would defecate into a box then toss in the game disc and all the WoWers would gladly lick the feces off the disc to be able to play their newest worlds or levels or whatever their called.

The funny thing is that WoW addicts would probably complain about the taste on the community boards while licking the feces off the disc.

I'm on my 3rd 360. But would I trade it for a PS3? Hell no! The main reason is the PS3's online option is rather lacking. The Xbox Live is the number one reason I will probably never buy a PS3 (that and I think its ridiculous to take it from behind from Sony with their completely unnecessary built in Blu-Ray drive just to push their format).

Hell, I thought the reliability on the original Xbox sucked with flashing red rings and I had to replace 2 DVD drives and one hard drive. Ugh!

Things like this boggles me. MS already gave it to you from the behind, so might as well buy a PS3 and get DPed with that logic since you seem to like that.

Go right ahead.
The only person you actually make look bad with your lies and misrepresentations is yourself.

You just think you put up a good front and don't believe anyone can see through it.

I have not been involved in a lot of the "fanboy v. fanboy" arguments, but several post in here make me worry for the future of the world. I own a PS3 and will readily admit that the online portion is lacking, but hopefully be updated soon. That is my only complaint. Now, if I can be honest about a product that I own, what stops a 360 owner from doing the same. You have people readily admitting that they are on 2-3 360, yet Sony is screwing people??? Are we as a society that gullible or just that stupid. Some of you need to step away from the computer and spend some time enjoying a system that you paid $299-499 for. At least that is what I do.

The funny thing is that WoW addicts would probably complain about the taste on the community boards while licking the feces off the disc.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh man, it's so funny because it's so true. The WoW boards are so whiny it's painful. I hope they pay those mods decently (which I doubt).

Couldn't resist replying to this one.

I'd believe you, but then again I'm the one came up with the idea that you were a MS employee.

=p

FTW!! :woot:

Since we're hardware bashing, those with XB360s and PS3s are cowed by anyone with a decent gaming PC in terms of rendering capability/graphics quality. Not to mention KB/M controls are better for FPS than dual analog; it's much, much faster and more precise, so there's no debate. So gaming PCs have them on both fronts.

Or, you know, we could just play games an not worry about who's e-peen is bigger. But I don't think we'll do that. :)


That's great (and true), but they call it the "console war" for a reason. I may not drive a Ferrari but it doesn't stop me from ragging on someone w/ a rusted out Cavalier if you get my drift.

I'm on my 3rd 360. But would I trade it for a PS3? Hell no! The main reason is the PS3's online option is rather lacking. The Xbox Live is the number one reason I will probably never buy a PS3 (that and I think its ridiculous to take it from behind from Sony with their completely unnecessary built in Blu-Ray drive just to push their format).

Hell, I thought the reliability on the original Xbox sucked with flashing red rings and I had to replace 2 DVD drives and one hard drive. Ugh!



LMAO. You need help, man. If you prefer MS to Sony, that's great, many do...but the fact that you don't want to "take it from behind" from Sony while MS has used you up like a $2 Tijuana Hooker is soooooo ridiculously rich.

What's "googlestalk"?

What's "googlestalk"?

I believe it means to google the username of a forum user to see their postings on other boards.

Steve_McKenz pulled off the best googlestalk I've seen when this kid kept posting annoying messages a while back. SM found that the kid had posted a YouTube video of him and his friend dancing to "Crank That" shirtless. Then the kid wrote a bunch of replies under the video trying to convince people how cool he was. It was rich.

So for all of you idiots who say its not a big deal: just shut up. You don't know a gd thing. I've lived my life as an engineer standing up for quality, as the customer's rep. MS has completely biffed it.

Hmm... that's not exactly the type of language I'd expect out of a mature individual, much less former "management" of an incredibly popular development section of a major company.

That and, I find it funny that he admits to being out of the company for awhile now, but he can comment on things as if he was still there... all the way down to the morale of the employees...


I'm not necessarily discrediting the article.. but even putting aside the fact that it has the grammatical accuracy of a 5th grader, there are several fairly questionable sections to this "interview."

Hmm... that's not exactly the type of language I'd expect out of a mature individual, much less former "management" of an incredibly popular development section of a major company.

That and, I find it funny that he admits to being out of the company for awhile now, but he can comment on things as if he was still there... all the way down to the morale of the employees...


I'm not necessarily discrediting the article.. but even putting aside the fact that it has the grammatical accuracy of a 5th grader, there are several fairly questionable sections to this "interview."

While I agree that the tone of the respone and language were not very indicative of someone with his purported career status, the issue of him being out of the company and still knowing what's going on seems plausable to me. Many times engineers here will leave to join another company or some have come from competitors and they will keep tabs on former co-workers and projects they were apart of before leaving. If he really was involved with the 360 development and knew about such issues, I think its very possible that he would be curious to see how things were going and talk to his former colleagues about what was happening. Just because a Non-disclosure agreement is in place, does not mean that would deter some of the small talk between him and his former friends/co-workers. I've heard alot of things said around here to people that shouldn't be hearing them, but most of it is harmless in most cases.

While I'm sure he's been very frustrated with the whole ordeal, his retaliation and apparent need for people to believe him seem more like a response of an employee far down on the "food chain", than anyone with actual responsibility or decision making duties. Managers or Supervisors don't go own forums or blogs to vent or give interviews, engineers or lesser employees who were let go or have resentment towards their company might.

My first instinct was not to trust the interview but his technical details seemed like they could hold water and are plausable from a scientific standpoint so I am still unsure of what to think of the article. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say its about 75% accurate.

Hmm... that's not exactly the type of language I'd expect out of a mature individual, much less former "management" of an incredibly popular development section of a major company.

That and, I find it funny that he admits to being out of the company for awhile now, but he can comment on things as if he was still there... all the way down to the morale of the employees...


I'm not necessarily discrediting the article.. but even putting aside the fact that it has the grammatical accuracy of a 5th grader, there are several fairly questionable sections to this "interview."


It seems apparent that his beef with the company extends beyond the issue at hand, I'd agree. But that alone doesn't lessen the impact or potential credibility of his story; it just hints at his motivations for coming out with it. Isn't that how it normally goes... terrible company secrets revealed by "former disgruntled employee"? I've seen plenty of that coming out of the Bush Administration.

Also, don't assume that "distinguished professionals" are above such antics, or that they should always have perfect grammar... I think that's giving the human race in general too much credit.

It seems apparent that his beef with the company extends beyond the issue at hand, I'd agree. But that alone doesn't lessen the impact or potential credibility of his story;

I'm not attacking the credibility of his story, I'm attacking the credibility of his existence. Someone who was purported to have his status in the company should not act like that. He makes a lot of claims (like talking to various law agencies about cases concerning xboxes) but can never support any of these claims because he's anonymous... Then at the same time, acts like a 16-18 year old board troll.

Just a little suspicious IMO.

And godfather; think of his situation. If he *is* keeping tabs on his old co-workers, who do you think he'd talk to? His friends or people who were probably happy to see him go? He admits that most of MS probably wants to keep his mouth shut.. so if he DOES keep in contact w/people, it's probably only a select few, and they probably already think like him, or they wouldn't talk to him in the first place (for a variety of reasons).

so... even if he is a real person and this is a real report... it's still obviously very biased, and any "internal communication" that he is receiving would have to be just as biased, given the only plausible context from which he could receive it (a friend, who thinks just like he does).

I'm not attacking the credibility of his story, I'm attacking the credibility of his existence. Someone who was purported to have his status in the company should not act like that. He makes a lot of claims (like talking to various law agencies about cases concerning xboxes) but can never support any of these claims because he's anonymous... Then at the same time, acts like a 16-18 year old board troll.

I wouldn't put that behavior past anyone. People are still people. Look at George Dubya. He's a petulant fool and yet he's the president. I've personally worked with "distinguished professionals" who don't fit the perceived stereotype in every way. But at the same time, I really don't think any typical "16-18 year old board troll" could easily provide the kind of detail this guy has.

Of course I'm not proclaiming all of this is 100% true either. I hope it can be proven one way or the other. Microsoft's "speculation on top of speculation" statement was no help either, as they didn't specifically deny anything. (again, I think it's highly suspect that Microsoft would characterize their own potential comments as speculation. Aren't they the source? Don't they know the facts?)

And godfather; think of his situation. If he *is* keeping tabs on his old co-workers, who do you think he'd talk to? His friends or people who were probably happy to see him go? He admits that most of MS probably wants to keep his mouth shut.. so if he DOES keep in contact w/people, it's probably only a select few, and they probably already think like him, or they wouldn't talk to him in the first place (for a variety of reasons).

so... even if he is a real person and this is a real report... it's still obviously very biased, and any "internal communication" that he is receiving would have to be just as biased, given the only plausible context from which he could receive it (a friend, who thinks just like he does).

Biased doesn't mean false. He may have other undisclosed motivations. In addition, it appears he was there in person long enough to have been able to observe a majority of the conditions he spoke of. What he was saying was they knew before the launch that there were already several potentially devastating issues.

Biased *can* mean false though. Take, for instance his claim that everyone at the company hates it there. Does that really seem reasonable? It's probably that he and his one buddy that he still talks to hated it there, and his buddy is stuck there, so he hates it even more. You really think all the people banking off xbox hate their lives? That's just one example of how "bias" could easily lead to false claims.

As for the expertise, I knew several individuals in my own hometown high school who had amazing technical knowledge in various fields. Some in A/V, some in electronics, some in servers, some in web development (like me). High school is the place where often times it's a lot easier to identify and really go places with your professional hobbies.... but you don't necessarily have to take all the responsibilities of being an adult.

Take your local high school mechanics class. Generally it features kids who are AMAZING with cars but have a lot of social troubles, which is why they are often encouraged to spend their time learning a trade sill that they are good at.

Point being, the level of expertise that this individual displayed in this article may be quite sophisticated for some, and quite trivial for others. I don't think it's a good indication as to the validity of who he claims to be.

I just hope we get to find out for sure. My main point was that a certain demeanor isn't necessarily exclusive to blue collar people.

I just hope we get to find out for sure. My main point was that a certain demeanor isn't necessarily exclusive to blue collar people.

Conversation goes mature and the thread dies :lmao:

Now I have nothing left to read...

Conversation goes mature and the thread dies :lmao:

Now I have nothing left to read...

And when it does, you can see who sticks around and who doesn't. :D

And when it does, you can see who sticks around and who doesn't. :D


Well, when people admit that the numbers could be false there isn't much to get upset about. :dontknow:

Well, when people admit that the numbers could be false there isn't much to get upset about. :dontknow:

I admit that the numbers could be as low as 1% but I don't believe that is very likely. I'd be willing to bet that its about 20 times that at least. Just my opinion.

Oh lord, anyone who actually thinks it's 5% or less is either the worst kind of MS fanboy or a complete moron.

I think the 3%-5% might be accurate for the newer consoles, but the original build of the 360 most absolutely definitely had a higher failure rate than that.

Oh lord, anyone who actually thinks it's 5% or less is either the worst kind of MS fanboy or a complete moron.

I think the 3%-5% might be accurate for the newer consoles, but the original build of the 360 most absolutely definitely had a higher failure rate than that.

My point was that the numbers COULD be anything. I never saw anyone claim that they were a certain percentage beyond a shadow of a doubt. As its been said many, many times, the argument on whether the rate is 30% or 20% or 10% really doesn't matter or has any impact. A consumer electronic product from a major manufacturer failing that much is unheard of and ridiculous, period, end of story. If the new models actually are around 5-10%, there is no chance I will ever own another 360 again.

My point was that the numbers COULD be anything. I never saw anyone claim that they were a certain percentage beyond a shadow of a doubt. As its been said many, many times, the argument on whether the rate is 30% or 20% or 10% really doesn't matter or has any impact. A consumer electronic product from a major manufacturer failing that much is unheard of and ridiculous, period, end of story. If the new models actually are around 5-10%, there is no chance I will ever own another 360 again.

One thing you can glean from this article is that if it will fail, it will fail early - so at least you'll know and can rectify the situation quickly. That seems like useful information

One thing you can glean from this article is that if it will fail, it will fail early - so at least you'll know and can rectify the situation quickly. That seems like useful information

On this point, he does speak the truth. I bought my 360 on June 12th. I was greeted by the 3 colorful lights on August 8th. Fail early it did.

A consumer electronic product from a major manufacturer failing that much is unheard of and ridiculous, period, end of story.

LOL NO.
Try looking up the failure rates or manufacturing error rates of the iPod Nanos sometime.
Apparently about 50% or more of the current Nanos suffer from manufacturing errors that lead to tilted screens.

LOL NO.
Try looking up the failure rates or manufacturing error rates of the iPod Nanos sometime.
Apparently about 50% or more of the current Nanos suffer from manufacturing errors that lead to tilted screens.

Mortality rate is what the RRoD refers to. When I say failure rate, I'm talking about complete failure of the product. A $400 doorstop. Were the nanos rendered useless, as in was the tilted screen a defect which did not cause the nano to turn on?

It amazes me that, given that entire interview, you guys ended up zeroing in on a couple of stats again (the 30% and 10% estimates he gave). What about all that stuff about Microsoft knowingly launching with a poorly engineered console just to avoid missing a holiday season, etc.? I suppose there's not much to debate there. Again, the argument has once again boiled down to everybody knowing Microsoft's selling broken sh!t, including Microsoft, but debating about the exact percentage of the sh!t that's breaking.

One thing you can glean from this article is that if it will fail, it will fail early - so at least you'll know and can rectify the situation quickly. That seems like useful information
On this point, he does speak the truth. I bought my 360 on June 12th. I was greeted by the 3 colorful lights on August 8th. Fail early it did.

And yet, it flies in the face of anecdotal evidence where people receive console errors 1-2 years after buying the console.

It makes sense that most that are going to fail should do it early, that's the expected norm for anything poorly built. The fact that some hold out longer doesn't exactly blow any theory to pieces.

I got the ring of death about 2 weeks ago , still waiting on my xbox to come back :(
Was in the middle of my career mode in gh3 err I'm gonan be rusty.

And yet, it flies in the face of anecdotal evidence where people receive console errors 1-2 years after buying the console.

I'm confused by this line. Are you saying anecdotal evidence should have us disregard the article's statement about early failures, or that it's further proof anecdotal evidence is no good for drawing conclusions?

I'm confused by this line. Are you saying anecdotal evidence should have us disregard the article's statement about early failures, or that it's further proof anecdotal evidence is no good for drawing conclusions?

He wants to debunk it like the other sympathizers.

And yet, it flies in the face of anecdotal evidence where people receive console errors 1-2 years after buying the console.

Just because there are cases of units failing 1-2 years after purchase does not disprove his claim about it failing early. I'm sure if there was a study on mortality rates, the majority of them would be 6 months or less. His assertations are not mutually exclusive.

I gotta agree with the 360 haters here.

From what I've read on the subject catastrophic failure related to manufacturing error (rather than wear) generally happens early on in the product's lifespan for any piece of major electronics.

There are always exceptions to the rule, but the generalization still holds for the majority.

http://www.docadamsaudio.com/sarcasticgamer/ringoffire_sarcasticgamer.mp3

My nephew got a 360 elite in Oct. of 07. Last week he was greeted with the RRoD.

My nephew got a 360 elite in Oct. of 07. Last week he was greeted with the RRoD.

Any idea of the manfucturing date on that elite?

Any idea of the manfucturing date on that elite?

I have no idea on that.

I have no idea on that.

Could that have been one of those bundles that was labeled elite but didn't have HDMI, or am I confusing that with another situation...

Could that have been one of those bundles that was labeled elite but didn't have HDMI, or am I confusing that with another situation...

His does have HDMI inputs. I remember checking it out during Christmas. I could be wrong about it being an elite but, I do not think so.

His does have HDMI inputs. I remember checking it out during Christmas. I could be wrong about it being an elite but, I do not think so.

If it was black, its an elite.

got a rrod! after about a year and 2 months of owning it... worked fine when i last played it a few days ago, then bam! outta no where. actually, it was making some funny noises when trying to play cod4 on live, but apparently people in the same game were saying the same thing, so i didn't worry. oh well. hope i don't get back some junk console.

Still no problems with my crappy 360 Pro that I got at a hella discount through Meijer, even though I leave it on overnight while downloading and that kinda thing.

Y'ALL NEED TO STOP PUTTING OVERCOATS ON YOUR CONSOLES, Y'HEAR? :D

actually, it was making some funny noises when trying to play cod4 on live, but apparently people in the same game were saying the same thing, so i didn't worry.

Would you say.... one out of three were saying the same thing? :bounce:

Here is what is being presented as proof that the insider is real: photos of his "Ship It" awards. The article is short so just check it out here:

http://www.8bitjoystick.com/archives/jake_photographic_proof_of_xbox_360_red_ring_of_de ath_insiders_authenticity.php

Here is what is being presented as proof that the insider is real: photos of his "Ship It" awards. The article is short so just check it out here:

http://www.8bitjoystick.com/archives/jake_photographic_proof_of_xbox_360_red_ring_of_de ath_insiders_authenticity.php

OH LOOK AT THIS:

These are photos of my source's Xbox "Ship It" awards. These are custom trophies that Microsoft will distribute to key players in their project. These aren't some mass produced tourist trinkets but are as authentic as a wax seal pressed with a royal ring. This major monolith award means that my source was a major player in the world of Xbox.

Update: I did a search on Flickr. looking for other Microsoft ship it award. It ends up there are several designs of the award over the years. However I did run into plenty of photos of photos of people mailing their broken Xbox 360s back to Microsoft to get fixed.

Some folks wanted proof that the source was real so here it is.

1) Anti360fanboymuch?.
2) Yes. Yes, photos of awards that large groups of "key players" got. CLEARLY THIS IS UNDENIABLE PROOF!!!!!!! :whee:

Somebody on maxconsole forums posted a picture of a crown and said it was "proof that he was the king of England." Pretty funny.

I don't think the guy is anti-360. Quite the opposite. He stated in his blog today: (http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/digitaljoystick/archives/130522.asp)

I want to know that when my Xbox 360 dies on me one day and that I buy a "Jasper" or "Falcon" based replacement Arcade SKUs that my new future 360 is actually going to actually go the distance and last as long as I want to play 360 games. I would much rather have a 360 that worked reliably and without worry than actually consider buying a PS3.

OH LOOK AT THIS:



1) Anti360fanboymuch?.
2) Yes. Yes, photos of awards that large groups of "key players" got. CLEARLY THIS IS UNDENIABLE PROOF!!!!!!! :whee:

It does seem to lend credibility that he was employed by Microsoft to work on the development of the xbox at some period of time.

I thought I remembered him challenging his doubters to tell him a way that he could prove that he was an inside source and not someone trying to fabricate a hoax. If you think of a way that he can show this "UNDENIABLE PROOF!!!!!!!" that you speak of, be sure to chime in and tell him.

Deny it all you want but this is starting to look legit.

The award is for the Xbox, not the Xbox 360.

All this "proves" is that he worked for MS, not that he worked on the 360.

Hes pissed off at MS and giving them hell but yet still keeps the award that they gave him? I would have ebayed it, if I was that pissed.

The award is for the Xbox, not the Xbox 360.

All this "proves" is that he worked for MS, not that he worked on the 360.

Ehh, it "proves" he was on the xbox team and not that he just worked for MS. Doesnt really prove how much he actually worked with the xbox360 though. For all we know he could have been fired for how badly the first xbox did and thats why hes shit talking on the 360. HAHA...nevermind...you basically said the same thing. Sorry, no sleep makes you dyslexic.

The award is for the Xbox, not the Xbox 360.

All this "proves" is that he worked for MS, not that he worked on the 360.

If he left the company or department around the time of launch, its possible he wasn't around to receive any recognition when MS gave the awards for the 360.

If you can think of a better way for him to "prove" his credibility, go ahead and make a suggestion to him.

I'm still not 100% convinced myself, but this does lend some credibility to his claims.

If he left the company around the time of launch how would he know anything about the 360's performance since then?

Ehh, it "proves" he was on the xbox team and not that he just worked for MS. Doesnt really prove how much he actually worked with the xbox360 though. For all we know he could have been fired for how badly the first xbox did and thats why hes shit talking on the 360. HAHA...nevermind...you basically said the same thing. Sorry, no sleep makes you dyslexic.

It proves that someone took a picture of an award that MS awards internally. Nothing more, nothing less.

OH LOOK AT THIS:

1) Anti360fanboymuch?.
2) Yes. Yes, photos of awards that large groups of "key players" got. CLEARLY THIS IS UNDENIABLE PROOF!!!!!!! :whee:

What would work as proof?

What would work as proof?

Verification. Something indisputable. The mole's identity or MS verifying the Mole's claims.

If he left the company around the time of launch how would he know anything about the 360's performance since then?

(It's funny to see how everyone lines up on their respective side, wishing this was or wasn't all true.)

Anyway, for one, a majority of the things he talked about were events leading up to the launch. Afterwards, he said he kept in contact with several former colleagues to get updates.

It was noted that image searches could not turn up this photo as proof that it was just copied from somewhere. I went through 20+ pages of google image results (xbox "ship it") before I gave up.

But, of course, the ultimate proof is still missing. I'd like to see this guy's identity come out. It might totally suck for him, but what can I say... I'm selfish.

A scan of an ID card with sensitive information blurred out that showed what department he worked in would be better.

It would at least be harder to get than this trophy.
For all we know this photo came from the company that manufactured them for Microsoft.

Verification. Something indisputable. The mole's identity or MS verifying the Mole's claims.

I see this going the way of RRoD arguments.

Even if he was to give out his identity, I feel some would question whether he was involved with the 360's project at all and begin to question the time frame he worked for MS with. Even now, that picture is being called into question - all it proves is that somebody, somewhere took a picture. Others would say he was lying due to his biased writing, and clearly has a vendetta against MS.

So if he were to give his identity out, wouldn't some people say all it proved was that somewhere, somebody knows the name of someone at Microsoft? Skepticism about sources can go very far when it comes to the internet.

And MS verifying the Mole's claims... well let's not go there again :P

I see this going the way of RRoD arguments.

Even if he was to give out his identity, I feel some would question whether he was involved with the 360's project at all and begin to question the time frame he worked for MS with. Even now, that picture is being called into question - all it proves is that somebody, somewhere took a picture. Others would say he was lying due to his biased writing, and clearly has a vendetta against MS.

So if he were to give his identity out, wouldn't some people say all it proved was that somewhere, somebody knows the name of someone at Microsoft? Skepticism about sources can go very far when it comes to the internet.

And MS verifying the Mole's claims... well let's not go there again :P

It's obvious to many of us that his charade will never end and both sides will continue to argue over the credibility of such claims for months to come. The likelihood of the existence of such "evidence" to put these arguments to rest is never going to be made public. No matter how close or how credible a source may appear to be, the pro-360 camp will always find ways to doubt it or discredit it.

This is why I enjoy forums and discussions about sports, at least after one team wins, the fanboys of the other team either shut the hell up or try to offer some lame excuse as to why their team lost. Closure is so easy in those cases, no such luck here I guess.

I see this going the way of RRoD arguments.

I do too. Anti-360 people will believe and/or use any evidence they can get to "prove" that the 360 sucks and pro-360 people call into question all of it. Considering how highly dubious most of the evidence is, it's going to be never ending until something really clean cut comes into play.

I do too. Anti-360 people will believe and/or use any evidence they can get to "prove" that the 360 sucks and pro-360 people call into question all of it. Considering how highly dubious most of the evidence is, it's going to be never ending until something really clean cut comes into play.

I asked you what would be considered 'real' proof, and then gave examples of how people would respond to what you constituted as real proof.

Again, I want to know - what must be done to credit this 'mystery microsoft worker'. I don't think a photo ID would work, as people would question his bias / vendetta, his timeframe or how deeply involved he was in the 360 project.

I'm not trying to prove he is credible - I'm asking for a solution from those who ask for 'simple proof'. What would satisfy people over the internet as real proof?

I'm not trying to prove he is credible - I'm asking for a solution from those who ask for 'simple proof'. What would satisfy people over the internet as real proof?

There is no simple proof and there is a lot about this guy that is unknown. Civil litigation requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Right now, there are a lot of reasonable doubts about this mystery "worker". What I'd like to know is why this guy is in such a tizzy that he would want to violate the NDA that he was, more than likely, forced to sign to work on the project.

There is no simple proof and there is a lot about this guy that is unknown. Civil litigation requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Right now, there are a lot of reasonable doubts about this mystery "worker". What I'd like to know is why this guy is in such a tizzy that he would want to violate the NDA that he was, more than likely, forced to sign to work on the project.

We all know there are many pro-360 people who have unreasonable doubts. It doesn't appear to me that he has violated his NDA(which we do not know the stipulations of) to the point where MS could take legal action. So far, it appears that he's been careful enough not to do that.

The funny thing is, in order for him to show this proof that would be beyond a "reasonable doubt", he'd likely have to post some pictures of classified documents or specifications that only engineers or department heads would have access to. That definately would be violating his NDA, and therefor is not very likely to happen.

We all know there are many pro-360 people who have unreasonable doubts. It doesn't appear to me that he has violated his NDA(which we do not know the stipulations of) to the point where MS could take legal action. So far, it appears that he's been careful enough not to do that.

The funny thing is, in order for him to show this proof that would be beyond a "reasonable doubt", he'd likely have to post some pictures of classified documents or specifications that only engineers or department heads would have access to. That definately would be violating his NDA, and therefor is not very likely to happen.

Then certainly you must recognize the inherent dubious nature of unverifiable, anonymous information.

Then certainly you must recognize the inherent dubious nature of unverifiable, anonymous information.

So in short... nothing.

Back to square 1 :wave:

So in short... nothing to convince anybody of anything on the internet, take everything with a grain of salt, etc.

Back to square 1 :wave:

Hahaha, they really are a waste of time. They remind me of a dog trying to catch their own tale. Someone earlier likened their arguements to circular logic and it's hilarious how true that is.

Keep spinning, keep denying, keep up the desperate attempt to disprove or discredit everything that suggests the 360 is ridiculously faulty.

Hahaha, they really are a waste of time. They remind me of a dog trying to catch their own tale. Someone earlier likened their arguements to circular logic and it's hilarious how true that is.

Keep spinning, keep denying, keep up the desperate attempt to disprove or discredit everything that suggests the 360 is ridiculously faulty.

Careful you misspelled tail. They will use to to discredit anything you say. If they stick to the playbook.

Hahaha, they really are a waste of time. They remind me of a dog trying to catch their own tale. Someone earlier likened their arguements to circular logic and it's hilarious how true that is.

Yea, who needs factual evidence when conjecture and hearsay can take its place in entirety!

Keep spinning, keep denying, keep up the desperate attempt to disprove or discredit everything that suggests the 360 is ridiculously faulty.

Spinning? The only spin is that somehow an anonymous poster with no verifiable credentials is an expert on the 360, sort of like how an anonymous, unidentified Gamestop manager is a credible source for failure rates.

I know you (as well as any anti-360 poster on this board) want to latch on to anything that would support your view that the 360 is a POS and that you were absolutely correct in not buying a 360, but look at this from a rational point of view: This purported MS guy is anonymous. He has no verified credentials. He states information that anyone with the smallest grasp of electronics would know. He "verifies" theories that have been thrown around as guesswork on forums like Xbox-Scene. Finally, the only reason people have to believe this guy is because the interviewer was the first to break they story that Bungie was going to break off from Microsoft.

There is very large, reasonable doubt that what is being said is the least bit correct.

But if you so firmly believe that I'm just "spinning" and "denying", why not post a rational reasoning why one should believe an unverified, anonymous source when one would receive a failing grade or fail peer review in any paper by posting unverified and anonymous material?

I thought this "inside source" *is* the same source that leaked the Microsoft-Bungie split, and that's why he has so much cred now to the interviewer and to readers.

Yea, who needs factual evidence when conjecture and hearsay can take its place in entirety!



Spinning? The only spin is that somehow an anonymous poster with no verifiable credentials is an expert on the 360, sort of like how an anonymous, unidentified Gamestop manager is a credible source for failure rates.

I know you (as well as any anti-360 poster on this board) want to latch on to anything that would support your view that the 360 is a POS and that you were absolutely correct in not buying a 360, but look at this from a rational point of view: This purported MS guy is anonymous. He has no verified credentials. He states information that anyone with the smallest grasp of electronics would know. He "verifies" theories that have been thrown around as guesswork on forums like Xbox-Scene. Finally, the only reason people have to believe this guy is because the interviewer was the first to break they story that Bungie was going to break off from Microsoft.

There is very large, reasonable doubt that what is being said is the least bit correct.

But if you so firmly believe that I'm just "spinning" and "denying", why not post a rational reasoning why one should believe an unverified, anonymous source when one would receive a failing grade or fail peer review in any paper by posting unverified and anonymous material?

I actually did buy a 360, owned it and loved it for 2 months before it died. I still play games like Halo 3 and Madden and NHL with my friends very often on their 360's. I have not, nor will I ever claim that I "hate" or dislike the 360 WHEN ITS WORKING.

I already posted my reasoning for my skepticism of the blog interview, but I also stated that his reasons for the failures were very similar to what I was told by the electrical technicians who physically examined my 360. To me, they provided hard factual evidence from a credible source. Therefor, since this purported xbox developer cited very similar reasons for the failure as the electrical techs did, this helped his credibility in my eyes. I was 50/50 on believing him initially but after he's challenged people to provide him with ways to prove his credibility and posting pictures of the Ship It awards which only xbox team members receive, his credibility was only helped by doing so.

I believe he's shown that he's not just another fanboy who is doing this interview because he's a fan of Sony products. I believe he's shown his credibility to be a MS employee with involvement of their video game division, and specificly production of the Xbox. If you're willing to believe he's worked with the original Xbox, is it that "unreasonable" to assume he's correct when he's stated that he's worked on the 360 as well? I don't think so, but we all know that you and 2 other posters here will continue to think otherwise.

Didn't mean to start a flame war about who's spinning what, just wanted to make a point about those asking for 'real proof' that such a thing doesn't exist here

Didn't mean to start a flame war about who's spinning what, just wanted to make a point about those asking for 'real proof' that such a thing doesn't exist here

Which is why there is inherent distrust of this source and report. I wanted to show, though, that such distrust isn't part of some rabid fanboyism, but is actually quite rational when you consider legal standards.

Which is why there is inherent distrust of this source and report. I wanted to show, though, that such distrust isn't part of some rabid fanboyism, but is actually quite rational when you consider legal standards.

Legal standards? On an internet message board? I object your honor, I was not aware that this SD court of law was in session. Forgive me for not swearing in, if I am in contempt, then let the e-bailiff take me away.

What isn't "quite rational" is for you to expect someone to adhere to "legal standards" on the internet. I'm done responding to you. :shake:

What isn't "quite rational" is for you to expect someone to adhere to "legal standards" on the internet. I'm done responding to you. :shake:

So, you're saying that because you're writing on an internet message board, you're intentionally gullible? Have you bought a bridge or some land in Florida recently?

I never expected anyone else to adhere to a legal standard, least of all you. However, I utilize a legal standard (which is less strict than an educational or peer-reviewed standard) as my basis of what is believable. This source in this essay is not believable. Simply because he throws out some engineering terminology (that anyone can look up, by the way) doesn't mean that what he says is correct.

But, as before, you're still looking for reasons why the 360 is a POS and why not buying a 360 was a good move for you, so you're willing to latch on to any evidence, regardless of how dubious.

What's silly is that this "inside source" could have simply wrote "I am a male", and we could debate forever whether he is or not without conclusion ("post a pic." "no, he could have clipped that from another website." "post a pic with a handwritten sign." "no, that could be Photoshopped." "no, that might just be her brother." "or it could just be a friend of hers." "meet with one of us in person." "no, how do we know she's not just dressing up as a male. I've seen Boys Don't Cry." "meet with one of us in person and then take off your clothes." "no, again how do we know its really him or her that's meeting us?" etc., etc.) Doesn't mean that he isn't a male.

We're winning 1-0 on the two big arguments around here, so they really need this one.

But, as before, you're still looking for reasons why the 360 is a POS and why not buying a 360 was a good move for you, so you're willing to latch on to any evidence, regardless of how dubious.

What's funny is many of the people around here who bash it actually own one, so that theory is really out the window. If I see a turd on the sidewalk, I don't need to "own" it to see it for what it is.;)

It's possible to admit that you like something but that the thing keeps on breaking. That's just being honest. It's like on Cops when the domestic violence victim admits the beater beats him/her but that he/she still loves the beater. It comes off as some crazy stuff and you're like "wha?", but it's brutally honest.

DNA EVIDENCE IS REQUIRED!!!!!
Somebody call Grissom so we can resolve this once and for all.

What's funny is many of the people around here who bash it actually own one, so that theory is really out the window. If I see a turd on the sidewalk, I don't need to "own" it to see it for what it is.;)

1) Ok, now I "own" a PS3.

2) OH MAN THE PS3 IS SUCH A HUNK OF SHIT I CAN'T BELIEVE I BOUGHT ONE.

DNA EVIDENCE IS REQUIRED!!!!!
Somebody call Grissom so we can resolve this once and for all.



1) Ok, now I "own" a PS3.

2) OH MAN THE PS3 IS SUCH A HUNK OF SHIT I CAN'T BELIEVE I BOUGHT ONE.

More like

1) I own a 360

2) OH MAN MINE HASNT DIED YET SO THERE MUST BE A LOT OF LIARS OUT THERE BECAUSE ONCE YOU HAVE THE BELOVED 360 YOU SHOULD BE LOYAL AND NEVER COMPLAIN

1) Ok, now I "own" a PS3.

2) OH MAN THE PS3 IS SUCH A HUNK OF SHIT I CAN'T BELIEVE I BOUGHT ONE.


Well, I was oversimplifying but that's the general idea.

I know more than a few people that have a 360 and the bulk of them have had issues (some more than once). I see people on messages boards all over the place complaining about their issues. Do I really need to go out and dump $400+ to find out for myself or is it reasonable for me to think that there might have been a serious problem (that may or may not still be happening to some degree) and maybe I should not spend my money on said item??? Sometimes 2 + 2 does equal 4.

FYI...I have only had a PS3 for about a month and a half. I knew that MS was producing substandard hardware LONG before that....it had nothing to do w/ being a PS3 Fanboy, trust me.

DNA EVIDENCE IS REQUIRED!!!!!
Somebody call Grissom so we can resolve this once and for all.

1) Ok, now I "own" a PS3.

2) OH MAN THE PS3 IS SUCH A HUNK OF SHIT I CAN'T BELIEVE I BOUGHT ONE.

Even with DNA evidence you would question if he was a true unbiased source who could speak knowledgably about the 360 SPECIFICALLY

Even with DNA evidence you would question if he was a true unbiased source who could speak knowledgably about the 360 SPECIFICALLY

Don't forget documentation detailing the chain of possession for the test sample, with every minute accounted for. Even still, was it 100% secure at all times? Wait, somebody set it down and turned their back for 14 seconds? MY GOD IT COULD HAVE BEEN CONTAMINATED

Don't forget documentation detailing the chain of possession for the test sample, with every minute accounted for. Even still, was it 100% secure at all times? Wait, somebody set it down and turned their back for 14 seconds? MY GOD IT COULD HAVE BEEN CONTAMINATED

I think you guys are confusing JP for Kakomu. JP made a fairly reasonable request: MS ID card (name blurred out) noting a position on the XB360 team, though such an item may not exist.

Kakomu was the one asking for a legal preponderance of evidence to the 90% standard imposed by the US court system. Which is, of course, impossible and completely ridiculous.

Hint: if you've had your fill of someone's ridiculous posts, there's an ignore list on the User CP.

Kakomu was the one asking for a legal preponderance of evidence to the 90% standard imposed by the US court system. Which is, of course, impossible and completely ridiculous.

The evidence in this thread wouldn't even pass the "preponderance of evidence" standard, which is actually >50%. There is no "90% standard imposed by the US court system". Beyond a reasonable doubt is just that. If I have reasonable doubts, I'm not going to believe it. My doubts are reasonable. None of this is either "impossible" or "completely ridiculous", which is why courts in the US adhere those standards. Persecuting people (or things, such as in this thread) based off of highly dubious sources is hardly fair. Unless, of course, you're a fan of the Soviet Union, et al.

Anyways, I prefer factual evidence to half-baked rumors posted by people who can barely speak English.

What I'd like to know is why is one of the engineers of the Xbox privy to secretive business dealings? Apparently this mole knew that Bungie and MS were breaking up, but I highly doubt that MS was blabbing it out loud or passing out a ton of memos. Otherwise, we would have heard a lot more leaks than one, suggesting that this person is part of the business end of things, rather than the R&D end of things, especially because he knew when the press meeting and announcement were going to occur. If this guy is actually in the business part of the company rather than R&D, how much probative value does the opinion of a businessman have on engineering details? Very little.

Again, this is all highly dubious and that's why I hold it to a high standard of proof.

Hint: if you've had your fill of someone's ridiculous posts, there's an ignore list on the User CP.
I know you're referring to my posts. I don't see why you think it's so ridiculous. Because I'm unwilling to believe, whole-heartily, in some mole who has very little evidence to show for their position (lest they be found and fired)? Since when is being gullible the non-rational approach to discussion?

What I'd like to know is why is one of the engineers of the Xbox privy to secretive business dealings? Apparently this mole knew that Bungie and MS were breaking up, but I highly doubt that MS was blabbing it out loud or passing out a ton of memos. Otherwise, we would have heard a lot more leaks than one, suggesting that this person is part of the business end of things, rather than the R&D end of things, especially because he knew when the press meeting and announcement were going to occur. If this guy is actually in the business part of the company rather than R&D, how much probative value does the opinion of a businessman have on engineering details? Very little.

Again, this is all highly dubious and that's why I hold it to a high standard of proof.




Somebody tell him that the Bungie mole and the XBOX mole are actually two different people. Same blogger, two different sources. Nice to see all that breath wasted though, it makes my day.

Also I have a small clarification. My source for the insider's look at the Xbox 360 Red Ring of Death is NOT the same confidential source that I had when I broke the work about Bungie leaving Microsoft. Both true but not the same person.

The evidence in this thread wouldn't even pass the "preponderance of evidence" standard, which is actually >50%. There is no "90% standard imposed by the US court system". Beyond a reasonable doubt is just that. If I have reasonable doubts, I'm not going to believe it. My doubts are reasonable. None of this is either "impossible" or "completely ridiculous", which is why courts in the US adhere those standards. Persecuting people (or things, such as in this thread) based off of highly dubious sources is hardly fair. Unless, of course, you're a fan of the Soviet Union, et al.

Anyways, I prefer factual evidence to half-baked rumors posted by people who can barely speak English.

What I'd like to know is why is one of the engineers of the Xbox privy to secretive business dealings? Apparently this mole knew that Bungie and MS were breaking up, but I highly doubt that MS was blabbing it out loud or passing out a ton of memos. Otherwise, we would have heard a lot more leaks than one, suggesting that this person is part of the business end of things, rather than the R&D end of things, especially because he knew when the press meeting and announcement were going to occur. If this guy is actually in the business part of the company rather than R&D, how much probative value does the opinion of a businessman have on engineering details? Very little.

Again, this is all highly dubious and that's why I hold it to a high standard of proof.


I know you're referring to my posts. I don't see why you think it's so ridiculous. Because I'm unwilling to believe, whole-heartily, in some mole who has very little evidence to show for their position (lest they be found and fired)? Since when is being gullible the non-rational approach to discussion?

It's possible to be aware of both technical and business related details in a corporation. I'm a low tier employee in the product development department, but even I know of a few business details before they are made public. There are supervisors which have the sole purpose of coordinating meetings and communicating between the engineering departments and management. So for you to say that this guy's opinion had very little value since he probably doesn't know about both areas is about the dumbest thing I've ever seen you say. He's mentioned that he spent some time in engineering and its not uncommon for engineers to take on more of a business role once they gain 10 or so years of experience. What do you think Project Managers are? Engineers with great business skills.

Also, your last statement makes no sense, did you mean to say non-gulible or simply rational instead of non-rational?

that makes this new story much less believeable then. just because 1 source is good why does that mean this one is too?

If you can get inside information and it is later verified, then you are generally considered to have earned some level of credibility as a reporter. He has explicitly explained his due diligence in verifying the identity of this new person himself. Since he is an xbox fan himself, it doesn't seem logical that he would put himself on the line by lying about his own personal assurances that this is a real insider.

Somebody tell him that the Bungie mole and the XBOX mole are actually two different people. Same blogger, two different sources. Nice to see all that breath wasted though, it makes my day.

That would be my mistake. He got that idea from me. I didn't know these were two different people. My bad.

stupid logic. just because someone is right once does not prove that they wiull be right again. also it was obvious from the start that bungie would leave once they could. why would they stay with microsoft after their contract ended they are one of the most powerful game companies in the world now because of halo! so obvious that they wiould leave!!!

Regarding the Bungie and Microsoft split being "obvious from the start", you should search for those old threads and see what was said back then, if only for the entertainment value that hindsight provides.

Regarding the continued debate over this thread, exactly what points in this guy's interview is being contended and which are not? Seems it's become more about attacking and defending this guy's credibility than analyzing any of the points he made.

It's possible to be aware of both technical and business related details in a corporation. I'm a low tier employee in the product development department, but even I know of a few business details before they are made public.
However, you don't know the really important business deals before everyone else. Bungie leaving MS is an important business deal, when you consider the value Halo is to the Xbox brand.

So for you to say that this guy's opinion had very little value since he probably doesn't know about both areas is about the dumbest thing I've ever seen you say.
Why is it so dumb? Please, tell me. Do you seriously trust a business man to know the minute details of EE so well that you would trust his opinion, without question? My guess: no. Anyways, unlike Data General, Microsoft is such a large company that they're going to hire people that are more specialized in their field to work on matters that are specific to their field. You're not going to find an Engineer handling finances, mergers or any other business-related matter for Microsoft and anything as large as Bungie leaving MS is probably going to be Hush Hush to all but the most senior.

He's mentioned that he spent some time in engineering and its not uncommon for engineers to take on more of a business role once they gain 10 or so years of experience. What do you think Project Managers are? Engineers with great business skills.
No, Engineers with management skills. Management is a subset skill of business. However, project managers are NOT going to have their hands in the affairs of their company when dealing with contractual obligations with a sister company. Come now, do you really believe that a project manager is going to have any direct say in the finances of their company v. accountants, the board of directors, CEOs, VPs, etc?

Also, your last statement makes no sense, did you mean to say non-gulible or simply rational instead of non-rational?
I meant the latter. I was trying to finish what I was writing before getting on my way home.

However, you don't know the really important business deals before everyone else. Bungie leaving MS is an important business deal, when you consider the value Halo is to the Xbox brand.

Why is it so dumb? Please, tell me. Do you seriously trust a business man to know the minute details of EE so well that you would trust his opinion, without question? My guess: no. Anyways, unlike Data General, Microsoft is such a large company that they're going to hire people that are more specialized in their field to work on matters that are specific to their field. You're not going to find an Engineer handling finances, mergers or any other business-related matter for Microsoft and anything as large as Bungie leaving MS is probably going to be Hush Hush to all but the most senior.

No, Engineers with management skills. Management is a subset skill of business. However, project managers are NOT going to have their hands in the affairs of their company when dealing with contractual obligations with a sister company. Come now, do you really believe that a project manager is going to have any direct say in the finances of their company v. accountants, the board of directors, CEOs, VPs, etc?

I meant the latter. I was trying to finish what I was writing before getting on my way home.

You say all this as if it were fact. I hereby DISCREDIT YOU :woot:

He still didn't get the message that the Bungie mole and 360 mole are two different people.

OK, everyone is arguing the validity of this "source", but aren't you missing the point? We all know at least one person that has a 360, correct. Has it failed (RRoD)? That is the main point to me. I personally know 3 people with a 360 and 2 of the 3 has had RRoD. Now, I know that is not the norm, but it is what I know. If this was any other product (vacuum, cell phone, etc) we all would be bashing the hell out of it. People that are questioning the source are a little biased IMO. Questioning the RRoD, is like getting upset when people say that Firestone never makes bad tires. Lets quit arguing about the source and let MS know that we are tired of them and their buggy products.

However, you don't know the really important business deals before everyone else. Bungie leaving MS is an important business deal, when you consider the value Halo is to the Xbox brand.


Why is it so dumb? Please, tell me. Do you seriously trust a business man to know the minute details of EE so well that you would trust his opinion, without question? My guess: no. Anyways, unlike Data General, Microsoft is such a large company that they're going to hire people that are more specialized in their field to work on matters that are specific to their field. You're not going to find an Engineer handling finances, mergers or any other business-related matter for Microsoft and anything as large as Bungie leaving MS is probably going to be Hush Hush to all but the most senior.


No, Engineers with management skills. Management is a subset skill of business. However, project managers are NOT going to have their hands in the affairs of their company when dealing with contractual obligations with a sister company. Come now, do you really believe that a project manager is going to have any direct say in the finances of their company v. accountants, the board of directors, CEOs, VPs, etc?


I meant the latter. I was trying to finish what I was writing before getting on my way home.

Ok so first its technical knowledge that any electronics hobbyist would know and now its minute details of EE? Another classic contradiction/exaggeration from you guys, I don't know why I'm surprised anymore.

And it's already been stated that they are not the same person, however never did 360mole claim that he had any say in any of those major decisions about management or the 360 launch, only that he KNEW about them. Is it really that hard for you to understand or are you playing dumb here?

He never claimed he handled any financing, was involved with any contracts, had direct say in any important business dealins, but that he KNEW ABOUT THEM. It's still possible to know about a business deal without being the one to initiate it.

You're reaching, you're getting desperate, and it's pretty obvious to anyone that you're clinging to any arguement to continue to discredit this guy. So much so that you've circled the wagons and contradicted yourself in doing so and have made broad assumptions about his position.

OK, everyone is arguing the validity of this "source", but aren't you missing the point? We all know at least one person that has a 360, correct. Has it failed (RRoD)? That is the main point to me. I personally know 3 people with a 360 and 2 of the 3 has had RRoD. Now, I know that is not the norm, but it is what I know. If this was any other product (vacuum, cell phone, etc) we all would be bashing the hell out of it. People that are questioning the source are a little biased IMO. Questioning the RRoD, is like getting upset when people say that Firestone never makes bad tires. Lets quit arguing about the source and let MS know that we are tired of them and their buggy products.


I've never known anyone who had the RRoD. I haven't talked to that many people, but I can think of 7 people off the top of my head that have not gotten the RRoD. I've talked to a lot of other people as well who've had xbox 360s. Now.. I don't know if they've had it in the past, but they've certainly never mentioned it if they had... (not saying that constitutes proof that they *haven't*.... I'm just saying I've never heard/met/talked to anyone personally who's had the RRoD).

OK, everyone is arguing the validity of this "source", but aren't you missing the point? We all know at least one person that has a 360, correct. Has it failed (RRoD)? That is the main point to me. I personally know 3 people with a 360 and 2 of the 3 has had RRoD. Now, I know that is not the norm, but it is what I know. If this was any other product (vacuum, cell phone, etc) we all would be bashing the hell out of it. People that are questioning the source are a little biased IMO. Questioning the RRoD, is like getting upset when people say that Firestone never makes bad tires. Lets quit arguing about the source and let MS know that we are tired of them and their buggy products.

Been there, done that too

You should probably give it a year and then report back. Halo3 was just September/October. At least you've gotten past the original 360 warranty period, which was only 90 days. Imagine Microsoft knowing their system was highly defective, shipping it out anyway, and knowingly slapping a 90 day warranty on them as they go out. If what this guy said is true, that's exactly what they did.

(The 360's original 90 day warranty was increased to a 1 year warranty when the Wii and PS3 came out, because those both had 1 year warranties from day one. The 360 RRoD warranty was then increased to 3 years because of the prevalence of RRoD.)

You know there is a real problem when you go in a 360 owners thread and the only thing you read is:

RRoD
RRoD
RRoD
RRoD
RRoD
I've a game to trade
RRoD
RRoD
RRoD
RRoD


I give you some quotes FROM THE SAME PAGE:


just got a 360 last night for 150 bucks with the HDD. It has already been sent back for the RROD. I don't have high speed internet in my area though...so no LIVE for me
Well after 25 days since RRoD, im getting my xbox back on Wednesday... 27 days since MS began the process of sending me a coffin. Good thing they gave me a free month of XBL for my troubles. I think im going to call them and see if I can get another.

Its good that MS extended the warranty and all, but shipping the coffin ups ground which took a week, sending me a return tag via UPS ground which takes a week back, holding the console for more than there expected "up to 2 business days", then shipping back ground really is annoying to all hell. But alas, ill have it back soon and finally be able to play CoD4 and GHIII that I got for xmas and only was able to play a few times before RRoD!

Been a while since I've been in this thread...

I got the 3 red lights of death again lastnight. Let's see, that means the last replacement only lasted aproximately 3 months with very light use, maybe 6 hours a week. The first console, which I bought at launch lasted me roughly 2 years with heavy use.

It would be nice to be given a brand new console with the newer processor, has anyone lucked out and gotten one of these?

Thanks Microsloth for fixing my issue, but not really at all.


i got that problem yesterday too. it began Fri and the Sat, but it wouldnt come on Sun at all. I head the problem was due to poor soldering, and read where a kid wrapped a towel around his xbox and turned it on for 10min. The excessive heat allowed the components to "resolder" itself. Since I was at the office waiting for an install to finish I figured wth. I wrapped the xbox in a fleece i was wearing and turned it on with the ring of death for about 15min. Sure enough it came right on after that. i had already filled out the paperwork online sat.