Black Friday is a bust!

[jawbonin]

:eek: :confused:
To say I'm shocked and confused is an understatement. I cannot believe that the CEOs of these companies can be this stupid to bypass an opportunity to get rid of inventory that will now continue to pile up. During better times I have seen better steals and deals on Black Friday and cannot under stand why these sales aren't more aggressive. Even the going out of business sales are a joke! I'm definitely going to spend my gift cards BF because a lot of these major companies are going to be filing bankruptcy before year's end. All of this nonsense leads me to believe that these CEOs are driving their companies "into the ground" on purpose, in order to give the appearance that they need a bailout so they can fatten their pockets. :mad:


These welfare CEOs need to go- I hope the congress will tell them no.

[Pec]

Non-consumer electronics deals aren't too bad...I think it's just because the margins on products have been pushed so low, retailers can hardly discount off the MSRP without manufacturers mail in rebate offers.
Look at retail computer price discounts this black friday, the only companies doing any good are Lenovo and supposedly Apple come tomorrow.

[Howry]

I agree, I havent seen anything that says wow I gotta go buy that!

The prices dont seem any lower then the prices I find every couple weeks in their sale flyer. Anything that is a pretty good price requires a mail in rebate and im not going that route.

Not a big deal, none of the retailers will get my $$ and at the end of the holiday season we will see on the news that spending was down quite a bit and the stores are struggling.

[dpippel]

Yep, for all of the crying and fretting that retailers appear to be doing about their profits this holiday season, FEW of them seem to be putting any real deals out there. As for margins on consumer electronics, yes they're small to begin with, but these companies are better off selling them as loss leaders and taking a calculated hit than having large inventories sit in their warehouses because NO ONE is buying them at all.

[Chrs]

what size is the bust?

got pics?

[MattG]

I didn't want to start a new thread for this... but I saw a good tv on amazon yesterday for a great price... but unfortunately I only realized what a good deal it was after researching around the net for about 30 minutes to decide "yep, I'll take that one"... and then I went back and it was $250 higher *LOL*... no seriously! So I ended up watching the amazon pages yesterday and repeating searches and "click here for price" for half the day... guess what? The same model only WENT UP all day... so by evening it was a full $300 higher! I've got several TVs I'd be happy with... and so far they were all selling for the lowest prices yesterday morning... EARLY... and by mid-morning they were all up... and by evening they were all up a lot more!

:) yes, BF is maddening.

Look at all the new "economy" TV models piling up in stores... BF was always about making money for the stores... it's not a philanthropic effort, so forget the idea that any store "owes" us great deals... but at the same time, I gotta' agree... this BF has been really disappointing compared to some years past.

Of course... had I snagged that deal yesterday morning I'd probably feel differently :)

[ToughPeanut]

Maybe...

But getting a 17" laptop with dual core for under $500 is the best deal Ive seen all year.
Also, laptops for under $300??? Very uncommon throughout the rest of the year.

With Live Cashback, desktops are under $300 - with good processors (not just emachine, but HP and dell are cheap too)...

Also, there are cheap small items, like memory cards, etc.

I agree that its not the best BF, but there are some good deals on electronics.

It stinks that macys doesnt have the $10 off anything coupon this year :(

[marksa77]

I haven't seen any deals that truly makes me want to get up at 4am and be @ the door. This year - BF stinks. Maybe it's just me but nothing has caught my eye.

[ToughPeanut]

yeah, but the online deals are good.

Most are already active.

[Chriss29]

BF definitely stinks this year.... didn't buy anything so far.... good thing I jumped on better deals earlier in the year

[larry123]

Can't seem to find anything worth waking up ealry for either :(

[MattG]

I think the Onkyo tx-sr506 from Newegg is a nice offer at $149 shipped. I was going to buy this 2 weeks ago from B&H for $198 shipped... then the price went to $209 shipped and I thought "hmm, maybe I don't need it right now"... then they lowered it back down to $198 shipped... and 2 days later... there's Newegg for $149.

Not exactly a blow-out... but I did appreciate this deal.

Now if I can just find a cheap TV... as it is right now I think the best deal going is Sears Panny 50" plasma for $899 w/ sears card... but that same TV could be had a couple weeks ago for $850 w/ sears card + bonus 5% off. Hence my current disappointment in BF. While there are some good deals for very specific items... the overall scope of "cool stuff" at crazy prices seems to be very limited.

A week or so ago Sears had a Panasonic Blu-Ray player for $150... and I've yet to see something of equal or better quality for even close to that price.

So as it is right now I'm definitely feeling that this BF is mostly hype.

[ToughPeanut]

TV - search for the $600 gas rebate thing for mitsubishi - makes the deal worthwhile (if you dont mind filling a rebate every month for the next 20 months)

[bsg75]

Agreed, but don't lose heart. The economy is so awful now they're running scared... they know they will have to have deep deep discounts and they don't want to start at bargain basement prices now.

Black Friday proper doesn't have the big doorbuster deals cuz BF will drag all thru December. The best deals will take awhile to show up. Wait for it, bide your time, stay on target, stay on target

[MattG]

*LOL* isn't that kind of... weird? The mitsubishi gas rebate for buying a television? Man... I can NOT figure that promotion out... maybe they should do a "free carrots for 6 months with any new Blu-Ray player"... you know... for the improved eyesight :)

[couchie]

Having personally been through both Linen 'n Things and a 'closing' Circuit City store, I have to agree. Even the going out of business 'deals' are not great deals! Some if not most of the items of interest to me were either just a dollar to two lower than most others stores or they were marked back up so high that the 'percent off' still leaves the price higher then others!

[thajeer]

agreed, I thought I would find atleast a good 40" HDTV under 500 .. none !!

[thajeer]

I didnt know there was an edit .. nubee !!

[Stingy McCheap]

There are some decent TV deals I think Walmart is being specially aggressive... but in general deals aren't great because there is a seeker born every minute.. the popularity of deal sites like this contributes to the average shopper just running to stores and buying anything that's below the MSRP he/she usually pays.. Gives them the opportunity to pose as a 'slick-dealer' among their other retail-paying friends and family.

Meanwhile, real deal-seekers still await real-deals which are scant this BF..

[guy121]

Well if it's a Red Friday this year, then companies will have to discount even greater.

[robertw477]

Every year I wonder about the black friday stuff. For the most part its been a bust for many years esxcept when they had lets say a laptop for $500.00 that (at that time) the lowest decent machine was 800 or so. Or a Plasma tv for 1K when that was a hot deal. But those people had to camp out for the few units avail. remember when people camped out a few yrs ago to get ps3s to sell on ebay for thousands of dollars? Virtually all of the deals we see here on slickdeals or fatwallet all the time. We are used to getting these prices or lower all the time.

Rob

[faheyd]

I was wanting a good deal on a 50 to 52" LCD or really good DLP.

Nothing materialized. On top of that, the retailers have been really sneaky and not always posting the model numbers in their 'ads'. Although some manufacturers have lowered their prices, the retailers have not. They are still trying to think the consumer is stupid and trying to push off old stock of 720p sets or non-LED DLP's.
I don't need to spend 1400 bucks. The retailers can complain they didn't sell anything. It's not the consumers fault, the prices suck and and there are no deals. Yeah, I know that there is a thread on LCD/Plasma's, but I'm not going to pay taxes at BB/CC, and amazon hasn't come through. A drive up to Oregon (no tax) would work for Costco, but they are not bending too much on prices. Even though they spent millions on 3 separate mailings for coupons, instead of giving the customers the price breaks with that money. Yeah, I want a 1080P/120hz/50" for around a grand from a company that will be around in 5 years, and you will get my money.

I got an idea, let's just not buy anything until retailers know for sure that we consumers really are smart and just aren't going to take their BS anymore.

[Joxer]

what size is the bust?

got pics?

:eek: :lmao:

[YouGiveMeRash!!]

The only thing I'm contemplating buying is the Toshiba 32" Regza 1080p tv for $580 shipped. With 4 HDMI inputs and OTA tuner, it's freaking awesome for the money!

Might be even cheaper with cashback.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889253134

[ninjarider]

i agree, this black friday is a total crapshoot. i remember the good old times in circuit city two years back. damn greed CEOpigs

[robertw477]

I was wanting a good deal on a 50 to 52" LCD or really good DLP.

Nothing materialized. On top of that, the retailers have been really sneaky and not always posting the model numbers in their 'ads'. Although some manufacturers have lowered their prices, the retailers have not. They are still trying to think the consumer is stupid and trying to push off old stock of 720p sets or non-LED DLP's.
I don't need to spend 1400 bucks. The retailers can complain they didn't sell anything. It's not the consumers fault, the prices suck and and their are no deals. Yeah, I know that there is a thread on LCD/Plasma's, but I'm not going to pay taxes at BB/CC, and amazon hasn't come through. A drive up to Oregon (no tax) would work for Costco, but they are not bending too much on prices. Even though they spent millions on 3 separate mailings for coupons, instead of giving the customers the price breaks with that money. Yeah, I want a 1080P/120hz/50" for around a grand from a company that will be around in 5 years, and you will get my money.

I got an idea, let's just not buy anything until retailers know for sure that we consumers really are smart and just aren't going to take their BS anymore.


Agreed. The retailers have these tricks so they can get various model number codes etc so it is confusing for consumers to price compare, pricematch etc. They love "exclusive deals" Some of the manufacturers of various items electonics and hard goods were pissed at the wholesale clubs so various manufactuers packaged items a little different for the retail stores etc.

rob

[Rudyfromrudylan]

Slick deals has made black friday just another day, the deals out there I can get from the comfort of my house, and I might get some sleep while at it.

[tex1ntux]

Black Friday is bust.

We need a government bailout plan for Black Friday.
Subsidize consumer purchases to make these non-deals actually worth buying.

[Dinas]

Black Friday is bust.

We need a government bailout plan for Black Friday.
Subsidize consumer purchases to make these non-deals actually worth buying.

:lol2:

[bigbadmoo]

The only store I plan on hitting tomorrow morning is Home Depot.

[Mysticcal]

I already got the only thing I wanted, a Head unit for my car,

19.90 for a Blaupunkt Melbourne SD27 at Fry's in Palo Alto yesterday, had to buy the one on the floor. perfect condt. though.

might buy some tools or something. Every year I just ended up buying dvd-rs from frys because nothing was too spectacular than the average year.

A big harddrive would be nice, but i'm not in a rush, i'll wait till next year when 2-3TBs are sub $100

[Dad0408]

Can't seem to find anything worth waking up ealry for either :(

Waking up early for? I'm not even going to bed! I've been up since 7 AM and am headed to the store at Midnight tonight, hope to be home around 9 in the morning.

[zachary80]

I'm excited for the non-tech deals that I've found, but which I could find some better blu ray player or drive deals.

[Faethe]

It seems like Wal-mart has the best deals. I'm trying to get another Zune to use as a dvd player for the TV in the living room. They have bundles on the 8gb that seem really good. The Zune charge thing is worth $28 and it's bundled with the player for $138. All the other stuff, even American Eagle, is just OK. I still have my 40% off coupon for AE but nothing on the site does it for me now. It looks like their stuff has gotten so bland? Where's all the tricked out embroidery?

The only store I plan on hitting tomorrow morning is Home Depot.

Lowes has a ten off 50 online they sent out this morning. I'm building a deck so it's all good for wood. I think I'm going to start grocery shopping at Aldi.

[rowjoe]

I already got the only thing I wanted, a Head unit for my car,

19.90 for a Blaupunkt Melbourne SD27 at Fry's in Palo Alto yesterday, had to buy the one on the floor. perfect condt. though.

might buy some tools or something. Every year I just ended up buying dvd-rs from frys because nothing was too spectacular than the average year.

A big harddrive would be nice, but i'm not in a rush, i'll wait till next year when 2-3TBs are sub $100

lolz, Blaupunkt

[Mysticcal]

lolz, Blaupunkt

Eh, I only listen to radio anyways and my shit Bose stock radio on my car went out.

plus a $120+ HU for 20 bucks ain't bad

[VorlonFrog]

You know it's really not Black Friday if the only thing I found worth buying in the Black Friday ads in the local paper was Dockers slacks at J.C.Penney. And there was nothing special about the price, either. :( :( :(

[PossumLodge]

News Flash! Black Friday is now Red Friday! Film at 11... (a joke for the accountants)

Or... Blue Friday... as in retailers crying the blues...

[missk66]

Yup just came to agree didnt JC Penny always have levis for closer to $20 on B/F??? They are $31.+ big woop I can make more money off the snow globes on ebay than I can on savings in sales!
jan/feb should be a ghost town everywhere

[Rei]

all the deals seem weak this year, I was waiting until black Friday to get an unbelieveable deal on an Xbox 360 or PS3 but now that I see that its a bust I wish I had pulled the trigger on all those dell.com xbox 360 deals

[BumbleBees]

It seems like the only stuff they "discounted" is super high priced, and mostly crap.

[n19htmare]

NO plans of going anywhere tomorrow. I have seen better sales through out the year.

[hrbanana]

Only place I plan to hit is Pep Boy's for some $2/qt Pennzoil. Who would have ever thought that $2 a quart for name brand oil would be a deal??

[mrkiki911]

first time in 4 years i havent gone out...

depressing

[astrogirl19]

first time in 4 years i havent gone out...

depressing

I know, I feel the same way! I'm usually planning out my strategy on Thursday so I can wake up super early Friday and be out the door. Not this year though, nothing is enticing enough to have to deal with the crowds. *sigh*

[bankyconan]

Was going to make this my first BF but couldn't find a thing that i needed for the price.:(

[thetiler]

The only thing I might go pick up are a couple pair of $8.00 Wrangler jeans from WM
I think I can get them Online and not have to leave the house
J

[mandoro]

maybe when people don't buy anything from them they'll be forced to have another sale..

[corazones]

i agreed not much item caught my attention. electronic gadgets can be found on SD all year long at discounted prices. Staples, newegg, and amazon online deals have saved me from any desire to drive to the store early morning.

[krazymop]

I think the issue is we are looking at this through the lens of seasoned deal shoppers. For us the vast majority of these deals are nothing special, because we do this year round. For the vast majority of people though, these deals are good (to them). Combine that with the fact that BF itself has gotten so much exposure in recent years and it is no longer necessary for companies to cater to us. If they lose us as customers on BF, I don't think their bottom line is hurt much. They have enough of the general public coming out in the morning now that they supplement the lost business. In addition, their profit margins are higher by focusing on those customers. I think the days of truly amazing BF deals might be over.

[wideout]

maybe when people don't buy anything from them they'll be forced to have another sale..

They (news media) have been saying that manufacturing has been on the decline in the past months. With retailers having less inventory than in other years, they cannot discount as much because that would affect their bottom line. It's kind of amusing how a recession can cause inflation.

[jubae]

I think the issue is we are looking at this through the lens of seasoned deal shoppers. For us the vast majority of these deals are nothing special, because we do this year round. For the vast majority of people though, these deals are good (to them). Combine that with the fact that BF itself has gotten so much exposure in recent years and it is no longer necessary for companies to cater to us. If they lose us as customers on BF, I don't think their bottom line is hurt much. They have enough of the general public coming out in the morning now that they supplement the lost business. In addition, their profit margins are higher by focusing on those customers. I think the days of truly amazing BF deals might be over.

:nod: I certainly agree with you on this for the most part but the deals are still lackluster in comparison to the previous years of Black Friday sales. There is hardly anything out there, that you can truly say its a great deal.

[santalum]

I keep hearing how retailers are slashing prices left and right, but I haven't seen it here in the Kansas City metro area. Even when I see ads for sales, I go in the store and about 3 things are on sale, and it's always ridiculous crap no one really needs or wants.

The BF ads are such a disappointment! I am an electronics snob, and won't settle for no-name brands or store brands or lower-priced "value" brands, and in a lot of the ads, these are what's on sale this year. I would rather save my money and buy a better brand of item with a good reputation, rather than buy something just because it's cheap. You get what you pay for. Hopefully some better deals will come along closer to Christmas, but if they don't, I'll continue to get by without, and will just keep the money in my bank account for later.

[sassyfragger]

So many are just cruddy. I mean lets look at Yankee Candles for example- last week I get an email (and SD'd) that candles are B2G2F well their "BF" deal is B2G1F. It seems a lot of the stores are pulling that just to boost their sales revenues. TVs are a pretty good deal for a non-SDer but other than that I can't see driving to the store and standing with people to pay $4 for an $8 game (which is the *best* deals that I've seen on kids' stuff and I'm sure not getting out of bed to save less than $10)

[gadget_hound]

Yes - deals this year have been a disappointment. I still might go stand at Circuit City (http://wwp.retrevo.com/content/blog/2008/11/circuit-city-black-friday-deals). I work at Retrevo and our editors still liked the deals there. Most products atleast have good user opinions - and aren't just clearance items.

[Shigadeyo]

Yep, I am disappointed as well. I was really expecting more for less. It's the same stuff everywhere for the same price. The Dell deal on XBox 360 Arcade a few weeks ago or so was better than anything I see in the ads for tomorrow. Oh well, looks like this just means that I can sleep in now!

[newmedia]

as some of us been saying past few weeks, guys who thought BF was going to be a buyers market do not understand " running a store" and keeping its customers happy.

It cost money to hire more sales people and certainly not going to hire more to just move the inventory at below cost for shoppers looking for bargains, they do that using internet outlets and ebay.

so in future , if you want to find best deals shop e-stores where shoppers should do research first before placing an order,,

[ncentity]

I went by BB at around 6pm and there was a line of about 15 already.

What are they waiting for? >.>

Is there something big I don't know about? o.O

[RGIS222]

Just as a comparison....I drove by the Best Buy that I was in line at last year for BF and it was pitiful. Last year i arrived at 7pm and the line was already around the side of thebuilding. This year I drove by at 7:40pm and only 10 people in line.

I'm going to walmart this year but not getting in line until 3:30 am. I just want a few things and nothing major.

[fyu]

I went by BB at around 6pm and there was a line of about 15 already.

What are they waiting for? >.>

Is there something big I don't know about? o.O
Some ultra secret BB deal.

[RGIS222]

I keep hearing how retailers are slashing prices left and right, but I haven't seen it here in the Kansas City metro area. Even when I see ads for sales, I go in the store and about 3 things are on sale, and it's always ridiculous crap no one really needs or wants.

The BF ads are such a disappointment! I am an electronics snob, and won't settle for no-name brands or store brands or lower-priced "value" brands, and in a lot of the ads, these are what's on sale this year. I would rather save my money and buy a better brand of item with a good reputation, rather than buy something just because it's cheap. You get what you pay for. Hopefully some better deals will come along closer to Christmas, but if they don't, I'll continue to get by without, and will just keep the money in my bank account for later.

I totaly agree. My area is the same...no good deals on reputable name brands. And all BFads are disapointing....I might just go to Bon Ton later in the morning for the clothing deals and a clothes steamer.

[kibbled_bits]

Guys, retailers, suppliers and manufacturers are tanking it. They're all having to scale back production so they can't take as many losses as they have in the past. They are still taking losses just not to the bone.

This is the reality of the next year or so, everybody's budgets are getting tighter. It's life and you gotta accept it and move on.

[NewDoc]

My best deals so far are at CVS. I flipped through a lot of my ECB's today and a friend of mine and I walked out with 4 bags full of stuff for under $5 total. Forget electronics, hit up your CVS pharmacies. :)

[CheapASCII]

Yup just came to agree didnt JC Penny always have levis for closer to $20 on B/F??? They are $31.+ big woop I can make more money off the snow globes on ebay than I can on savings in sales!
jan/feb should be a ghost town everywhere

I sell Smurf TV Trays.

[GigiChloe1]

Black Friday is bust.

We need a government bailout plan for Black Friday.
Subsidize consumer purchases to make these non-deals actually worth buying.

You are absolutely right, and very hilarious. Thanks for the good laugh. LOL

[sbolish]

I fully agree... in previous years, I'd find something worthwhile... This year the most exciting deal is the 6 pack of LED flashlights for $9.97 at Home Depot (with batteries included) :) The prices on many things seem higher than before BF. I got 3 separate Kmart ads... the first was the "weekly ad" the other two were for BF. There was a 4 GB memory card in the weekly ad for less than a very similar one in the BF ad. Anyway, I'll get some sleep this year and save some money.

[sbolish]

I went by BB at around 6pm and there was a line of about 15 already.

What are they waiting for? >.>

Is there something big I don't know about? o.O

Who knows... my brother told me there were people camping out at 2:00p today in front of Best Buy. We looked through the ad and found nothing interesting. BB are bunch of bozos usually and their offerings this year are pretty lame. I guess if you are in the market for a cheap laptop, there were a couple of options. Anybody know if they plan to have any unadvertised specials? Not that that would make me go :)

[Yeorwned]

what size is the bust?

got pics?
I'm interested. This could be a slick deal.

[Chicagoland_Girl]

The only thing I'm contemplating buying is the Toshiba 32" Regza 1080p tv for $580 shipped. With 4 HDMI inputs and OTA tuner, it's freaking awesome for the money!

Might be even cheaper with cashback.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889253134

It is Freaking Awesome for the money. Go look at the picture....I think it's better than any samsung or sony in this size... I purchased it for $700 in June and have been happy every day since. Doubles as a Amazing Monitor. I get a kick out of 32" spreadsheets.

Really easy to set up and adjust color. sound is OK but eventually I'd like to get better speakers. Go for it!!!

[ZeroSyztem]

I went by BB at around 6pm and there was a line of about 15 already.

What are they waiting for? >.>

Is there something big I don't know about? o.O

Same here. I have yet to see anything worth buying anywhere, let alone at Best buy. I saw people in front of Circuit City also and I was confused about that . :shake:

I saw CC is having a sale on a 32" Sony. Might be worth it if I didn't just pick up that same tv for $499 on amazon with FS and no taxes - Oh and I had $200 in GC's which made the out of pocket cost less than $300 :woot:

[toneii]

I already have about 2 19" LCD monitors that I don't even use....
Have 2 GPS, one was $129 last year and the other was free for getting a credit card...
Got all the SD and micro SD ram chips I can ever use... have several unopened...
What the heck is there to buy? another High Def TV? WHat for? There's nothing on worth watching on the 4 I have already...

blueray player? that'll be like $39 shortly, why get one now? Actually I would buy a blueray home theater if there were one under $129 with amp and speakers.

MSI wind? No thanks... Inspiron 700m is superior.

Hard drive? not exciting. have gigs unfilled already.

what else? help me out here... there must be SOMTHING to buy somewhere!?!?!

[jstlucas]

A big harddrive would be nice

Geesh, I get spam all the time telling me about some pills what would get my drive big and hard...

[panther85]

what else? help me out here... there must be SOMTHING to buy somewhere!?!?!

exactly!!! there was no hot new electronics toy this year. we all have digital cameras, laptops, game consoles, dvd players, etc...


GO TO CVS!!!! what you do is use ur clipped coupons on the FAR items... for instance CVS is offering 10 dollar rebate on 20 dollars of batteries, so stack it with battery coupons and u can get some great deals

[unreal]

well the only things i saw, were for pink friday stuff, and most of that ill never see.. tigerdirect/compusa had some good tech deals, but most likely wont have many of any. I liked the 9800xt? something for a C note, when my friend bought one about 2 weeks agof ro over 2 hundred. im not doing anything... I still glad i stocked up on the cd's and dvds that were FAR... still have some to lol

[Icec0o1]

The only thing I'm contemplating buying is the Toshiba 32" Regza 1080p tv for $580 shipped. With 4 HDMI inputs and OTA tuner, it's freaking awesome for the money!

Might be even cheaper with cashback.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889253134

That makes me cry because I bought this less then a year ago for 850 when it first came out. I'm absolutely loving it dude, I so recommend it! It's the perfect monitor... BIG but not too big. 37" is too large, this is perfect. At 580 I want to buy another one...

[jman7]

I am super disappointed. I can't find any real deals. Thought about getting a GPS but I don't really need one and I have found no screaming deals on any of them. The prices are pretty much the same everywhere. Thought about a 32" HDTV for the kids but $300 for a quality 1080P one is all I am willing to pay. No such deals on them either. Only deals I have found so far have on Amazon.

[jayman7]

first time in 4 years i havent gone out...

depressing

Another ditto to that. Usually I have my game plan of when and wear to hit bright and early, but not this time. Not only do the prices suck badly this year, but the items they are selling are no good either. My only option is to look for any unadvertised online specials that may pop up.

[GrandMstrBud]

I think that a lot of people realize the deals are not that great. I drove by Best Buy around 10 PM and there were about 10-12 people there. Last year I drove by at around the same time and there were about 40-50 in line. All it would take is some good deals and that would draw the people there and just have 10 of each of the hot ticket items. It's amazing how many that will draw in and people will still wait even if there is a chance they won't get that hot ticket item but it still draws them into the store.

[chevy4lyf]

I find this thread quite disappointing coming from the perspective of a buying team at a large retailer. I don't know where to start.

The overall misconception by the media is that BF deals will have to be "hotter than ever" to have a good holiday season. This seems to have caused a great deal of you to be disappointed with deals that are the same or not as good as last year.

The bottom line is that the media is probably a little off base here. In reality, most retailers are being very conservative and calculated as to not have items that will truly lose too much money. This is a business, and businesses are not typically run by selling items below cost. Yes, Black Friday is an exception and doorbusters generate customers that will possibly buy other items with healthy margin, but the consumer has gotten slicker every year and now people like those on this forum ONLY buy those loss-leaders (and you even coordinate how to be in several places at once to gobble up everyone's deals), causing minimal gains on other products as a result. What is the incentive for retailers to do this then?

"Retailers need to go hot to get rid of this excess inventory." Hate to tell everyone this but retailers plan EVERYTHING months, sometimes even a year or more in advance. The first problem is that when this year's BF deals were being set up, there probably wasn't a lot of consideration thrown in to make the deals significantly better than last year, as some news articles suggested. The economy was struggling but noone could have predicted a collapse of this magnitude.

The second problem is that conversely retailers have known the economy was going sour for months and have been scaling back to accommodate by purchasing less inventory this year to be safe, so there isn't as much risk of being crippled by inventory.

As for 4th quarter results being poor, I hate to tell everyone this but take a look around you: No matter what retailers do it won't change the fact that spending overall is down, saving is up, credit markets are severely crippled, and unemployment continues to rise. Everyone is scared and most will scale back this year to be safe. Regardless of whatever deals a retailer will throw at you, comps will be down (except maybe Wal Mart). This year's Black Friday deals won't cause the retail industry to suffer any more than it already will due to the economy.

And of course a lot of companies are also spreading their deals throughout December, so keep an eye out for future ads, which could have some hot items.

Sorry to get on the soap box here but it's a little ridiculous reading some of the posts on here about the deals. Yeah they aren't the best ever but just like all of you out there, we're trying to survive through this economic environment. Retail isn't typically a risk-taking business as overall profits are generally very very slim and the slightest miscalculations can run companies into the ground. The timing of this economic collapse couldn't be worse for retailers - it's basically like your star Running Back and Quarterback breaking their legs in a car accident the week before the Super Bowl. Just go about your normal shopping and purchase gifts for yourself and others that you think are a good value and have a Happy Holiday season!

[jawbonin]

Hmmm... Don't under estimate the stupidity of the average American consumer. (aka non- slickdealers)...

I just returned home a few hours ago from a family get together and I happen to pass by a Tanger Outlet to get home. Since it was around midnight I decided to check it out and hoped to get one of their "Midnight Madness" gifts. As I approached the exit on the highway for Tanger northbound the line of cars was 1 mile long. At that point I was like, forget it! I immediately slid into the left lane to make sure I did not get stuck in the mile long traffic jam. But wait, don't get slackjawed yet over the mile long traffic jam, because in the opposite direction the line of cars had to be 4 to 5 miles long to get off on the exit for Tanger Outlet. Now this is about 12:30am so you can guess that the Midnight Madness gifts had already been given away- so why were these people out and about trying to get to Tanger??? No idea, but would you like to know the "Midnight Madness" gift items- first 100 people in line at 12 midnight would receive a $10 gift card, the next 200 would receive a 10 inch plush toy....

Go freakin' figure....

!

[harrekki]

I find this thread quite disappointing coming from the perspective of a buying team at a large retailer. I don't know where to start.

The overall misconception by the media is that BF deals will have to be "hotter than ever" to have a good holiday season. This seems to have caused a great deal of you to be disappointed with deals that are the same or not as good as last year.

The bottom line is that the media is probably a little off base here. In reality, most retailers are being very conservative and calculated as to not have items that will truly lose too much money. This is a business, and businesses are not typically run by selling items below cost. Yes, Black Friday is an exception and doorbusters generate customers that will possibly buy other items with healthy margin, but the consumer has gotten slicker every year and now people like those on this forum ONLY buy those loss-leaders (and you even coordinate how to be in several places at once to gobble up everyone's deals), causing minimal gains on other products as a result. What is the incentive for retailers to do this then?

"Retailers need to go hot to get rid of this excess inventory." Hate to tell everyone this but retailers plan EVERYTHING months, sometimes even a year or more in advance. The first problem is that when this year's BF deals were being set up, there probably wasn't a lot of consideration thrown in to make the deals significantly better than last year, as some news articles suggested. The economy was struggling but noone could have predicted a collapse of this magnitude.

The second problem is that conversely retailers have known the economy was going sour for months and have been scaling back to accommodate by purchasing less inventory this year to be safe, so there isn't as much risk of being crippled by inventory.

As for 4th quarter results being poor, I hate to tell everyone this but take a look around you: No matter what retailers do it won't change the fact that spending overall is down, saving is up, credit markets are severely crippled, and unemployment continues to rise. Everyone is scared and most will scale back this year to be safe. Regardless of whatever deals a retailer will throw at you, comps will be down (except maybe Wal Mart). This year's Black Friday deals won't cause the retail industry to suffer any more than it already will due to the economy.

And of course a lot of companies are also spreading their deals throughout December, so keep an eye out for future ads, which could have some hot items.



that may be, but i'll tell you this. the only thing i am going out for tomarrow are PC games that seem to be an after thought, and at prices to reduce inventory. assassins creade, bioshock, and WOW battlechest are 10-15 bucks, and no door busters. i won't buy another thing while i am there.

When i have to price match a deal from one company to make a purchase worth my time, and to do it the week before BF, is sad. If this is the "doorbusters" your big retail buyers think will draw in customers, another profession might be better suited for you.

again, i also like the theory that CEO's are driving profits DOWN to get bail out money.... and form the information quoted above about seeing this coming and decreasing amounts of product..... that might just not be such a crazy thought....

So, when a company has decent customer service with INTELLIGENT employees on the floor, and is smart enought o make doorbusters that mean something, I'll have someplace i know i can be comfortable shopping at, even away form the holidays.

[johnnycrossbone]

Holy crap, Amazon's GOLD BOX deals today are the most disappointing yet.

I love Amazon, but these deals are terrible.
What a letdown.

[chevy4lyf]

that may be, but i'll tell you this. the only thing i am going out for tomarrow are PC games that seem to be an after thought, and at prices to reduce inventory. assassins creade, bioshock, and WOW battlechest are 10-15 bucks, and no door busters. i won't buy another thing while i am there.

When i have to price match a deal from one company to make a purchase worth my time, and to do it the week before BF, is sad. If this is the "doorbusters" your big retail buyers think will draw in customers, another profession might be better suited for you.

again, i also like the theory that CEO's are driving profits DOWN to get bail out money.... and form the information quoted above about seeing this coming and decreasing amounts of product..... that might just not be such a crazy thought....

So, when a company has decent customer service with INTELLIGENT employees on the floor, and is smart enought o make doorbusters that mean something, I'll have someplace i know i can be comfortable shopping at, even away form the holidays.

You are the customer that Best Buy calls "demon" customers. You prey on deals and don't shop for something unless you have pricematched it to hell, find obscure rebates, used coupons and asked for a discount on top of that for the hassle. Truthfully, retailers don't care if YOU ever shop in the store. You never buy anything that drives profit (I hate to break it to you but revenue doesn't = profit, so you shopping somewhere doesn't necessarily help a company), and you expect the world because you spent a few bucks somewhere.

A company would rather focus on their real customers that come in every day and give them something of value.

By the way, nice one taking a stab at my profession and my personal ability. Didn't realize that I deserved personal attacks because I am rationally explaining what is going on this holiday season. The simple fact is that expectations were higher because of the news media, and retailer deals were the same or lower because of economic realities.

[johnnycrossbone]

I think the issue is we are looking at this through the lens of seasoned deal shoppers. For us the vast majority of these deals are nothing special, because we do this year round. For the vast majority of people though, these deals are good (to them). Combine that with the fact that BF itself has gotten so much exposure in recent years and it is no longer necessary for companies to cater to us. If they lose us as customers on BF, I don't think their bottom line is hurt much. They have enough of the general public coming out in the morning now that they supplement the lost business. In addition, their profit margins are higher by focusing on those customers. I think the days of truly amazing BF deals might be over.


This is a really great point.
The media has focused so much on Black Friday lately and made hunting for deals and being frugal seem "cool" that too many people are willing to stand in line for ANYTHING, so retailers don't feel like they have to offer incredible savings to entice people into the store.

I think you're right, and as long as this economic downturn is going on Black Friday is going to be wrecked. I hate to say it, but I don't think we'll see any of the great old deals for another 2-3 years at the earliest.

[chevy4lyf]

Hmmm... Don't under estimate the stupidity of the average American consumer. (aka non- slickdealers)...

I just returned home a few hours ago from a family get together and I happen to pass by a Tanger Outlet to get home. Since it was around midnight I decided to check it out and hoped to get one of their "Midnight Madness" gifts. As I approached the exit on the highway for Tanger northbound the line of cars was 1 mile long. At that point I was like, forget it! I immediately slid into the left lane to make sure I did not get stuck in the mile long traffic jam. But wait, don't get slackjawed yet over the mile long traffic jam, because in the opposite direction the line of cars had to be 4 to 5 miles long to get off on the exit for Tanger Outlet. Now this is about 12:30am so you can guess that the Midnight Madness gifts had already been given away- so why were these people out and about trying to get to Tanger??? No idea, but would you like to know the "Midnight Madness" gift items- first 100 people in line at 12 midnight would receive a $10 gift card, the next 200 would receive a 10 inch plush toy....

Go freakin' figure....

!

Yeah I forgot to mention that too, the average customer probably doesn't even notice that these deals aren't necessarily as good. If a deal appeals to them, they will shop there. It may not build lines at the door days in advance, but it will still move the merchandise. I think this forum heavily focuses on electronic gizmos, and there are some crazy deals out there on other items.

Home Depot is going all out this year with a 4 pc. cordless tool kit and an extra tool free for $60 bucks. That's a hell of a deal, but noone on here would likely appreciate it. They also have those $.99 plants, which might appeal to noone on this forum, and thousands in the real world.

Sears' frontloader washer/dryer set for $599 isn't your typical doorbuster (not really a gift item) but it is one hell of a deal as well.

Overall, people seem sour here because of the tech deals being subpar.

[johnnycrossbone]

You are the customer that Best Buy calls "demon" customers. You prey on deals and don't shop for something unless you have pricematched it to hell, find obscure rebates, used coupons and asked for a discount on top of that for the hassle. Truthfully, retailers don't care if YOU ever shop in the store. You never buy anything that drives profit (I hate to break it to you but revenue doesn't = profit, so you shopping somewhere doesn't necessarily help a company), and you expect the world because you spent a few bucks somewhere.

A company would rather focus on their real customers that come in every day and give them something of value.

I can't speak for that guy, or for the majority of folks here on SlickDeals, but when I get a great deal from a store it greatly improves my opinion of that store and makes me more likely to shop there for normal things throughout the year.

As examples, I've gotten some great deals at Target in the past, and now I shop there all the time even if they don't have anything on sale. I've also gotten burned at Radio Shack in the past, and now I NEVER shop there unless they're the ONLY place I can find a specific cable or what have you.

I've also gotten some great deals on Amazon (even got invited into their private reviewer group) and I'll occasionally buy things there even when I know I can find them cheaper somewhere else, because Amazon has treated me well as a customer and I feel some loyalty to them as a business.

Yeah, sure, some people are just jerks who are out to buy something on the cheap so they can sell it on eBay and turn it into cash, but for a lot of plain old frugal people like myself getting a great deal on something can make us really appreciate what a store is doing to try to win our business and make us keep coming back to them in the future.

[fattrain]

Yeah I forgot to mention that too, the average customer probably doesn't even notice that these deals aren't necessarily as good. If a deal appeals to them, they will shop there. It may not build lines at the door days in advance, but it will still move the merchandise. I think this forum heavily focuses on electronic gizmos, and there are some crazy deals out there on other items.

Home Depot is going all out this year with a 4 pc. cordless tool kit and an extra tool free for $60 bucks. That's a hell of a deal, but noone on here would likely appreciate it. They also have those $.99 plants, which might appeal to noone on this forum, and thousands in the real world.

Sears' frontloader washer/dryer set for $599 isn't your typical doorbuster (not really a gift item) but it is one hell of a deal as well.

Overall, people seem sour here because of the tech deals being subpar overall.

I can agree with that.... I could give a rip about a cordless set from Home Depot and am only on here looking for good deals on higher end / fun portable electronics

p.s. a cordless toolset would be pretty cool though lol :woot:

[rowjoe]

that may be, but i'll tell you this. the only thing i am going out for tomarrow are PC games that seem to be an after thought, and at prices to reduce inventory. assassins creade, bioshock, and WOW battlechest are 10-15 bucks, and no door busters. i won't buy another thing while i am there.

When i have to price match a deal from one company to make a purchase worth my time, and to do it the week before BF, is sad. If this is the "doorbusters" your big retail buyers think will draw in customers, another profession might be better suited for you.

again, i also like the theory that CEO's are driving profits DOWN to get bail out money.... and form the information quoted above about seeing this coming and decreasing amounts of product..... that might just not be such a crazy thought....

So, when a company has decent customer service with INTELLIGENT employees on the floor, and is smart enought o make doorbusters that mean something, I'll have someplace i know i can be comfortable shopping at, even away form the holidays.

STFU, plz stop failing at life.

[fattrain]

STFU, plz stop failing at life.

ROFL.....

[chevy4lyf]

I can't speak for that guy, or for the majority of folks here on SlickDeals, but when I get a great deal from a store it greatly improves my opinion of that store and makes me more likely to shop there for normal things throughout the year.

As examples, I've gotten some great deals at Target in the past, and now I shop there all the time even if they don't have anything on sale. I've also gotten burned at Radio Shack in the past, and now I NEVER shop there unless they're the ONLY place I can find a specific cable or what have you.

I've also gotten some great deals on Amazon (even got invited into their private reviewer group) and I'll occasionally buy things there even when I know I can find them cheaper somewhere else, because Amazon has treated me well as a customer and I feel some loyalty to them as a business.

Yeah, sure, some people are just jerks who are out to buy something on the cheap so they can sell it on eBay and turn it into cash, but for a lot of plain old frugal people like myself getting a great deal on something can make us really appreciate what a store is doing to try to win our business and make us keep coming back to them in the future.

But that is my point. Best Buy would call you an "Angel" customer because the deals they provide create a Halo effect for the company and it creates repeat business that is mutually beneficial. That's why they have the rewards program and they do credit offers and decent sales.

But when someone says that they are going to shop the clearance racks for marked down games because they are sour that no retailer is offering them deals that are head and shoulder above last year, that just tells me that customer is not what retailers ideally want. Not to mention the price match, which although it is a great way to save money, doesn't particularly show that there is any loyalty at play here, they just want the cheapest price.

There are deals out there, they just might not be as insane or tech-heavy as the past.

[zoglog]

well the reason why you see the insane discounts at times in stores is so they get foot traffic to buy more profitable items. They're compensating for less foot traffic and more deal conscious buyers by limiting losses on discounted items.

[JobDDT]

You are the customer that Best Buy calls "demon" customers. You prey on deals and don't shop for something unless you have pricematched it to hell, find obscure rebates, used coupons and asked for a discount on top of that for the hassle. Truthfully, retailers don't care if YOU ever shop in the store. You never buy anything that drives profit (I hate to break it to you but revenue doesn't = profit, so you shopping somewhere doesn't necessarily help a company), and you expect the world because you spent a few bucks somewhere.

A company would rather focus on their real customers that come in every day and give them something of value.

By the way, nice one taking a stab at my profession and my personal ability. Didn't realize that I deserved personal attacks because I am rationally explaining what is going on this holiday season. The simple fact is that expectations were higher because of the news media, and retailer deals were the same or lower because of economic realities.

Yes, blame it on that damned news media, they're surely the ones to blame for the high expectations on Black Friday.

Absolutely no chance it could be the hype and marketing machine that you blatantly ignored in all of your posts that has turned Black Friday into a national holiday.

By the way, nice phrasing with the whole "you prey on deals" thing, as if they are helpless deer and people who have Internet access are giant grizzly bears. Who do you think offers the deals in the first place? Look in the mirror for once instead of blaming everything on the news media and the evil consumer.

[druggist]

realize this, we are slickdealers. great deals for most consumers are average at best deals for us.

[gojayjay]

@chevy4lyf:

Good original post. Very informative.

I have to say though that I agree with JobDDT in that for businesses to demonize the savvy consumer is not only pointless but quite frankly unfair. Of course people are going to want to get the best deal they can get; that’s just indelible human nature. A consumer isn’t trying to hurt a company’s bottom line when they cherry pick (i.e., purchase only sale items); I doubt most consumers are even aware that the item they’re buying is possibly being sold below store cost.

Quite frankly, I think the real problem is that the loss leader strategy is becoming less and less practical in today’s market. It’s ideally suited for new businesses or businesses trying to introduce a new (expendable) product to the public. It also makes sense for grocery stores to implement the strategy since they deal with very low dollar per item products (i.e., if you’re already at grocery store A, you’re not very likely to drive to store B to save 50 cents on the loaf of bread you also need).

However, for big stores that deal in say, electronics, having loss leaders makes little sense. Stores like Best Buy have little problem with foot traffic; it’s getting people to buy things at their regular prices that’s the problem, and loss leaders do nothing to help solve that problem. If you go in for $4.99 DVDs on BF, you’re not likely to spontaneously also buy that new computer that you’ve been needing just because you’re already at the store. Or if you go in for that $400 laptop, you shouldn’t be made to feel like a cheapskate because you adamantly refuse the extended warranty. If Best Buy loses money on a transaction, it’s Best Buy’s fault for relying on an inappropriate business model.

Finally, as far as building customer loyalty: unfortunately, such a thing rarely exists anymore. For most consumers, it’s all about the bottom line, too. Just because you got a great deal on an LCD TV at Best Buy doesn’t mean your next purchase of, say, a refrigerator will be at Best Buy. Most consumers, even most of the uninformed ones, will go where the best prices lead them. And the ubiquity of the internet has made it possible for anyone to buy anything at relative minimum cost with absolute minimal effort, and this trend will only grow. Over the next 10 years, experts predict that broadband access on cells will become as prevalent as the phones are today. Combine this ubiquity with an integrated barcode/RFID reader and software that allows one-button product info retrieval via the internet, and even the laziest person would be hard-pressed to overpay, spelling doom for companies that continue to rely on price structures that “prey” on the uninformed consumer.

I guess ultimately, our two perspectives actually lead to the same conclusion: the BF deals aren't as good as they were in the past because they're not profitable to the business.

[bari]

BF is not as slick as our Slickdeals.
With Slickdeals we find more precious deals than BF.

[Donkeybat64]

I thought this year's BF was good. It depends on what store you are looking at, i went to walmart @ 4:50 this morning and the parking lot was filled up. As we rushed in the store, people were grabbing the TVs off the racks. The line for GPS went around the whole department. I grabbed a Garmin nuvi 200 GPS for 97 after everything and weeds season 1,2 for 8.99 each, i also grabbed nba 2k9 for the ps3 for 39 dollars.

I think at slickdeals we are so spoiled by the numerous "slick deals" that we forget what a deal really means.

[jagged edge]

I thought this year's BF was good. It depends on what store you are looking at, i went to walmart @ 4:50 this morning and the parking lot was filled up. As we rushed in the store, people were grabbing the TVs off the racks. The line for GPS went around the whole department. I grabbed a Garmin nuvi 200 GPS for 97 after everything and weeds season 1,2 for 8.99 each, i also grabbed nba 2k9 for the ps3 for 39 dollars.

I think at slickdeals we are so spoiled by the numerous "slick deals" that we forget what a deal really means.

Well of course we're spoiled with deals, theres no other way to be. I would hate to ever be one of the sheep thinking that the crap they were serving today was anything near a deal. Slick-Dealer 4 Life hehe.:lmao:

----------------
Now playing: Gorillaz - Rock the House (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/gorillaz/track/rock+the+house)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[Evilsongoku]

just my 2 cents. I think most (if not all) are cost conscious and took the economic conditions into consideration, thus (maybe naively) believing most big box retailers would look to stimulate their product movement, even at a slight loss. Yeah, some deals are set months in advance, but if you can't adjust your product pricing in 30 days after repeated economic data and your own quarterly projections of a recessed holiday season, then you've got other issues. I think I am like many who might not even stop into many or most stores I would frequent in years past and many times, and many times I would generate an unplanned purchase for a product, but with the mediocre deals, I'm not motivated at all to fight parking or crowds for a price I could have gotten last week or month.

[jawbonin]

@ Those of you who say SD's whine....


Who will survive the economic meltdown?

The Average Slickdealer:woot: or. Everybody else:look:

[kharvel]

You are the customer that Best Buy calls "demon" customers. You prey on deals and don't shop for something unless you have pricematched it to hell, find obscure rebates, used coupons and asked for a discount on top of that for the hassle. Truthfully, retailers don't care if YOU ever shop in the store. You never buy anything that drives profit (I hate to break it to you but revenue doesn't = profit, so you shopping somewhere doesn't necessarily help a company), and you expect the world because you spent a few bucks somewhere.

A company would rather focus on their real customers that come in every day and give them something of value.

Excuse me, but what makes you think that more of your "best" customers are not going to become the "demon" customers in response to the economic conditions?

[bill9009]

I keep hearing how retailers are slashing prices left and right, but I haven't seen it here in the Kansas City metro area. Even when I see ads for sales, I go in the store and about 3 things are on sale, and it's always ridiculous crap no one really needs or wants.

The BF ads are such a disappointment! I am an electronics snob, and won't settle for no-name brands or store brands or lower-priced "value" brands, and in a lot of the ads, these are what's on sale this year. I would rather save my money and buy a better brand of item with a good reputation, rather than buy something just because it's cheap. You get what you pay for. Hopefully some better deals will come along closer to Christmas, but if they don't, I'll continue to get by without, and will just keep the money in my bank account for later.

Your gas is so cheap in Missouri, you can afford to pay higher prices on other stuff!! j/k

I saw some stations there that has gas in the 1.30's, crazy, we are just about to break $2 here in NY

[MattG]

I gotta' laugh at the "demon and angel" customers thing... why can't anybody on BOTH sides of these issues see the obvious middle ground. People who abused Costco's lifetime return policy RUINED it for the rest of us... and now it's 90 days... so yeah, if you bought stuff and used it for a year only to return and get the new model... I don't appreciate you peeing in "our" pool.

BUT... Hey Best Buy... how about a little less bait and switch? Check the 2 models of TVs in a particular "class" that are offered to customers on BF... a cheap one to compete with other BF sellers... and the good one that will come back on the shelves tomorrow.

So yeah... some truth on BOTH sides of this argument... but I'd say that GENERALLY speaking... an "angle" customer (in corporate eyes) is somebody that IGNORANTLY spends their money without actually KNOWING what they're getting for that money.

My dad is mad at me for not embracing the Polaroid TV at Wally World for $600... when it's a P.O.S. compared to anything even $100 higher... my dad would be your perfect angel customer... and of course he's got screwed on purchases his entire life.

I say more power to the slick dealers... just govern yourselves even a little bit and don't be prick dealers. The sensible middle-ground guide to being a cool dude says "save as much as you can without actually ripping off the store"... outside of that, I have no sympathy for stores that are just as aggressively on the side of "make as much as you can, even if you do rip off the customers."

I worked at Best Buy during the national law suits over bait and switch... etc. I know what's up on that side of the fence. An uneducated customer is a box-store's best friend.

[porky]

Agreed, but don't lose heart. The economy is so awful now they're running scared... they know they will have to have deep deep discounts and they don't want to start at bargain basement prices now.

Black Friday proper doesn't have the big doorbuster deals cuz BF will drag all thru December. The best deals will take awhile to show up. Wait for it, bide your time, stay on target, stay on target

I agree with this poster. I see moderate-hot deals continuing all the way into Christmas.

[chevy4lyf]

Excuse me, but what makes you think that more of your "best" customers are not going to become the "demon" customers in response to the economic conditions?

Just to be clear, I don't completely agree with Best Buy's Angels and Demons theory, and they have kind of backed away from it as well. The names itself were probably a nightmare for the BB PR team to work with, I'm sure damage control was pretty substantial at the time.

It could very well be that the people that will be shopping the deals now and in the future will only try to get the hot deals. We already see this right now as people continue to shift from companies that have high-low pricing strategies vs. everyday pricing. People are flocking to Wal Mart where they can always get a cheap price. High/low pricing strategies are being hit particularly hard because people only buy there when something is substantially on sale.

Personally, I'm more of the customer that likes to shop somewhere that has given me good deals in the past. I shop a lot of the newegg deals on here, but based on my experiences with them I typically only look to buy my computer parts from there anyway.

The bottom line is that the internet has changed things and will continue to change things. You can shop obscure deals on this website and get the best value. The result is that BF deals will likely be less compelling each year. Combine that with very hesitant and cautious retailers and you have this disappointing feeling that so many of you express.

[chevy4lyf]

I gotta' laugh at the "demon and angel" customers thing... why can't anybody on BOTH sides of these issues see the obvious middle ground. People who abused Costco's lifetime return policy RUINED it for the rest of us... and now it's 90 days... so yeah, if you bought stuff and used it for a year only to return and get the new model... I don't appreciate you peeing in "our" pool.

BUT... Hey Best Buy... how about a little less bait and switch? Check the 2 models of TVs in a particular "class" that are offered to customers on BF... a cheap one to compete with other BF sellers... and the good one that will come back on the shelves tomorrow.

So yeah... some truth on BOTH sides of this argument... but I'd say that GENERALLY speaking... an "angle" customer (in corporate eyes) is somebody that IGNORANTLY spends their money without actually KNOWING what they're getting for that money.

My dad is mad at me for not embracing the Polaroid TV at Wally World for $600... when it's a P.O.S. compared to anything even $100 higher... my dad would be your perfect angel customer... and of course he's got screwed on purchases his entire life.

I say more power to the slick dealers... just govern yourselves even a little bit and don't be prick dealers. The sensible middle-ground guide to being a cool dude says "save as much as you can without actually ripping off the store"... outside of that, I have no sympathy for stores that are just as aggressively on the side of "make as much as you can, even if you do rip off the customers."

I worked at Best Buy during the national law suits over bait and switch... etc. I know what's up on that side of the fence. An uneducated customer is a box-store's best friend.


Very good point. People do get burned at Best Buy a lot, particularly on their product services. When I read online that there is an "installation" offer for a TV that essentially includes plugging the TV in and setting up the Universal remote, and it costs $150, I just laugh to myself because I know there is a sucker out there that will buy it.

There is no doubt, retailers will try to take advantage in any way they can. Home Depot annouced rolling back prices on "thousands of items." Well yeah, when you sell thousands of various pipe fittings and screws and bolts that they make 90% margin on, they can afford to drop prices for good PR.

I agree there should be a middle ground, and I think there is but you typically won't find it on this forum because most lean toward the consumer extreme. The funny part is that even though this is the case, slickdeals is actually a great tool that retailers use to get out of inventory or to spur sales. Retailers make sure their deals get posted here.

[chevy4lyf]

@chevy4lyf:

Good original post. Very informative.

I have to say though that I agree with JobDDT in that for businesses to demonize the savvy consumer is not only pointless but quite frankly unfair. Of course people are going to want to get the best deal they can get; that’s just indelible human nature. A consumer isn’t trying to hurt a company’s bottom line when they cherry pick (i.e., purchase only sale items); I doubt most consumers are even aware that the item they’re buying is possibly being sold below store cost.

Quite frankly, I think the real problem is that the loss leader strategy is becoming less and less practical in today’s market. It’s ideally suited for new businesses or businesses trying to introduce a new (expendable) product to the public. It also makes sense for grocery stores to implement the strategy since they deal with very low dollar per item products (i.e., if you’re already at grocery store A, you’re not very likely to drive to store B to save 50 cents on the loaf of bread you also need).

However, for big stores that deal in say, electronics, having loss leaders makes little sense. Stores like Best Buy have little problem with foot traffic; it’s getting people to buy things at their regular prices that’s the problem, and loss leaders do nothing to help solve that problem. If you go in for $4.99 DVDs on BF, you’re not likely to spontaneously also buy that new computer that you’ve been needing just because you’re already at the store. Or if you go in for that $400 laptop, you shouldn’t be made to feel like a cheapskate because you adamantly refuse the extended warranty. If Best Buy loses money on a transaction, it’s Best Buy’s fault for relying on an inappropriate business model.

Finally, as far as building customer loyalty: unfortunately, such a thing rarely exists anymore. For most consumers, it’s all about the bottom line, too. Just because you got a great deal on an LCD TV at Best Buy doesn’t mean your next purchase of, say, a refrigerator will be at Best Buy. Most consumers, even most of the uninformed ones, will go where the best prices lead them. And the ubiquity of the internet has made it possible for anyone to buy anything at relative minimum cost with absolute minimal effort, and this trend will only grow. Over the next 10 years, experts predict that broadband access on cells will become as prevalent as the phones are today. Combine this ubiquity with an integrated barcode/RFID reader and software that allows one-button product info retrieval via the internet, and even the laziest person would be hard-pressed to overpay, spelling doom for companies that continue to rely on price structures that “prey” on the uninformed consumer.

I guess ultimately, our two perspectives actually lead to the same conclusion: the BF deals aren't as good as they were in the past because they're not profitable to the business.

Interesting point about the future of retail on phones. I know some retailers are already tinkering with in-store devices that will show you prices of competitors. The idea is that you can scan an item, check all the prices, make an informed decision and price match if you have to. The retailer benefit is that the customer feels satisfied with the purchase and places more trust in the retailer (ideally).

But that will be a very important aspect in the future.

[Giantcrazy]

Why do you think the average American consumer is in the economic shape they're in in the first place?

Because they'd make lousy Slickdealers.

You've got people who used to buy crap at Linens -n- Things at full boat thinking 'wow, I got 15% off!', when not one of us has touched it at less than a 20% discount (and typically far higher) when they still had a return policy. These people are now flooding the stores looking for a BF deal, which is probably just about what we'd pay for the same item on a daily basis.

The problem is stores are in such a precarious position due to the economy that they won't be able to stop slashing here. We'll see higher discounts throughout the holiday season, and probably easier to get since a lot of them will be under far less scrutiny than BF.

[iancole]

I think some killer deals on LCD's would have been all it took to change everyone's mind. Toss out some 32" and 42" sets at cost and all the sudden consumers would have been singing a different tune, IMO.

[gojayjay]

@MattG

Very good points. My verbal bloatage usually gets in the way of my point, but what you explicitly said was what I was trying to say.

@chevy4lyf

Yeah, they actually have prototypes of cell phones with integrated RFID readers. I believe Samsung makes them. It'll be a while before such things ever hit the market because currently RFID in and of itself is a niche technology. The framework for ubiquity is certainly there though.

Anyway, some of you already eluded to it, but it just occurred to me how much better this country would be doing right now financially if SDers (FWers, et al) were running this country. We'd probably have a gazillion dollar surplus and have run China out of business (not necessarily a good or bad thing on the latter).

[chevy4lyf]

@MattG

Very good points. My verbal bloatage usually gets in the way of my point, but what you explicitly said was what I was trying to say.

@chevy4lyf

Yeah, they actually have prototypes of cell phones with integrated RFID readers. I believe Samsung makes them. It'll be a while before such things ever hit the market because currently RFID in and of itself is a niche technology. The framework for ubiquity is certainly there though.

Anyway, some of you already eluded to it, but it just occurred to me how much better this country would be doing right now financially if SDers (FWers, et al) were running this country. We'd probably have a gazillion dollar surplus and have run China out of business (not necessarily a good or bad thing on the latter).

I agree that this country needs to be much more frugal on spending overall. But don't kid yourself, if a SlickDealer was running this country we would increase business in China because all of our industries would go there. The whole reason China is in the position they are right now is because of our craving for the best deal and price at any cost.

Ask those Wal Mart customers that stampeeded a Wal Mart employee to death if they care where their products are made or how inferior the quality is.

[free_agent24]

My alarm went off @ 4:20 A.M. and my first thought was screw it
SD is where I go for my deals and went right back to sleep lol

[chevy4lyf]

I think some killer deals on LCD's would have been all it took to change everyone's mind. Toss out some 32" and 42" sets at cost and all the sudden consumers would have been singing a different tune, IMO.

LCD's typically make 20-30% margin at best at regular price. Who here has ever bought a TV at reg. price? Noone...TVs typically walk out the door at less than 10% margin and if a deal is a few hundred under the regular sale price, they most likely are already AT cost.
I would be willing to bet that a lot of the doorbusters out there now are at or below cost. One thing I forgot to mention previously when talking about retailers scaling back: material costs were substantially higher at the beginning of the year when a lot of these deals were made with vendors, in addition to the inflation of the US$ compared with the Chinese RMB and the severe increase in oil prices at the time. There is a very good chance that the cost of these items is simply significantly higher than last year, and that is being reflected in the prices. I know for some of our merchandise that is the case.

You may argue "well those prices have now gone down so why would it be built into the cost still?"

1) As said previously, retail is planned way ahead of time and agreements are typically made using current economic conditions in addition to futures markets as a gauge. Back then, everyone thought the prices would simply skyrocket more, so for these deals I'm sure some retailers tried to "lock in" the cost of the item at the time, rather than have the cost valued by using commodity indeces (because it seemed like it would have only gone up).

2) Even when you have room to renegotiate prices it takes months to come to an agreement with a vendor sometimes and there simply was not enough time on either end of this mini-commodity price boom we had this year to renegotiate for better cost.

[oldhat86]

Mattg & Chevy4lyf

Just a comment about customer loyalty being obsolete. I beg to differ. I finally found a store that seems to respect its customers and I always look their first, before shopping elsewhere. I trust COSTCO to treat me with respect when something goes wrong with a product and I know their pricing model. 15% mark up on everything. They treat their employees the same way, with respect. They get the majority of my business and they always get my first look. When I purchase something at a better price I have already given COSTCO the chance for my business. Sears used to use this model, as did Wal-Mart. Both of them abandoned customer respect ages ago and I took my business on line or elsewhere. Home Depot has this problem now. I never expect Home Depot to treat me fairly. I expect them attempt to take advantage of me. I doesn't prevent me from shopping there but I have no loyalty to the store, either.

[sickdell]

Yup this year black friday deals blow. I wasnt planning on buying anything this year. but I thought there would be killer deals and was gonna buy everything i need next couple of years today. but the deals just blow. This is the first time in my family that not a single person went to any store.

whats really confusing is for the past 2 weeks is there have been more than 12 items each day on the front page of slickdeals. Not a single one of them I want. Seems like if a product is $20 off 200 it gets on front page now a days. for me thats not a great deal. seems like lots of deals get 5 stars too. I remember couple of year ago I would buy every thing that made front page or got 5 stars. I dont know if im getting picky or if the deals on slickdeals are not that great anymore

[BaseBaller]

Yes, this is all the fault of the CEOs of these companies. They are the only ones who make financial decisions.

[dealhustlr]

I have not spent a single dime on this Black Friday. No rebate forms. Cheers to zero c/c balances and 2009 clearance deals.

[chevy4lyf]

Mattg & Chevy4lyf

Just a comment about customer loyalty being obsolete. I beg to differ. I finally found a store that seems to respect its customers and I always look their first, before shopping elsewhere. I trust COSTCO to treat me with respect when something goes wrong with a product and I know their pricing model. 15% mark up on everything. They treat their employees the same way, with respect. They get the majority of my business and they always get my first look. When I purchase something at a better price I have already given COSTCO the chance for my business. Sears used to use this model, as did Wal-Mart. Both of them abandoned customer respect ages ago and I took my business on line or elsewhere. Home Depot has this problem now. I never expect Home Depot to treat me fairly. I expect them attempt to take advantage of me. I doesn't prevent me from shopping there but I have no loyalty to the store, either.


I completely agree that customer service is still paramount for many customers. I shop at Costco for the same reason you do, customer service and value is at the core of their business. They have not compromised from this and they treat their employees with respect and empower them to make decisions that most companies would never allow. They consistently find new ways to leverage their powerful customer base and build upon the store experience to make people happier.

But the truth is in the results, and noone can argue against Wal Mart's bottom line results. They are kicking everyone's ass and taking names.

[nnvan]

a lot of people were predicting 50" plasma for $699. it didn't even come close. most prices were lower in october than black friday. talk about disappointing.

[Dr.Murdoc]

prices in the next few weeks will be lower than b day i bet.

[codym]

I bought a wired guitar hero guitar for $10 bucks with $7 dollar shipping at toys-r-us. Still a good deal. That is about the only thing I found that was a good deal. Everything else was.....meh...i've seen better.

[AWS]

I don't give a crap about this BF never liked going into the crowd and fight for stuff, yes i am the consumer that will pricematch everything twice and use obscure rebates but that is no worse than companies trying to sell me overpriced cables and worthless warranties in order to balloon their profits, if you try to pull this crap on me i'll usually agree to everything then drop all the junk at the cash register. So give and take i have the money and retailers want it but i am not giving it out that easily i don't lose by not buying from my local B&M but they have lots to gain if they get my money. As for this years BF i just came back from the gym and found more people than expected the regular usuals and some more. I really believe this years BF is a bust.

[chevy4lyf]

I don't give a crap about this BF never liked going into the crowd and fight for stuff, yes i am the consumer that will pricematch everything twice and use obscure rebates but that is no worse than companies trying to sell me overpriced cables and worthless warranties in order to balloon their profits, if you try to pull this crap on me i'll usually agree to everything then drop all the junk at the cash register. So give and take i have the money and retailers want it but i am not giving it out that easily i don't lose by not buying from my local B&M but they have lots to gain if they get my money. As for this years BF i just came back from the gym and found more people than expected the regular usuals and some more. I really believe this years BF is a bust.

Despite your extraordinarily strong piece of anecdotal evidence, people have still shown up to buy products. There are still crowds and people are still shopping. Like the deals or not, people still need to buy gifts and holding off until everything is sold out or not buying anything at all simply isn't an option for most people.

I'm sorry that the deals don't suit your needs, but many people are finding the deals to be good enough to purchase anyway. Not everyone can simply wait for the deals, a lot of people need to get their shopping done today. I don't see how you can unilaterally declare BF is a bust just because there was no deal you and a lot of other SDers liked. As we all know, the average person isn't as savvy at finding the deals as your average SDer.

[monkeyingaround]

I am happy with this year's BF. :bounce:

- free breakfast and tree ornament (courtesy of CostPlus World Markets)
- free toothpaste (courtesy of Walgreens)
- free Garnier fructis shampoo (courtesy of Rite Aid)
and free razor (courtesy of Longs Drug)

I'm thinking about heading out later to day for free candles at Target!

[IronMikey12]

I am happy with this year's BF. :bounce:

- free breakfast and tree ornament (courtesy of CostPlus World Markets)
- free toothpaste (courtesy of Walgreens)
- free Garnier fructis shampoo (courtesy of Rite Aid)
and free razor (courtesy of Longs Drug)

I'm thinking about heading out later to day for free candles at Target!

Your time (and gas) is worth more than some free candles...i hope

[AWS]

Despite your extraordinarily strong piece of anecdotal evidence, people have still shown up to buy products. There are still crowds and people are still shopping. Like the deals or not, people still need to buy gifts and holding off until everything is sold out or not buying anything at all simply isn't an option for most people.

I'm sorry that the deals don't suit your needs, but many people are finding the deals to be good enough to purchase anyway. Not everyone can simply wait for the deals, a lot of people need to get their shopping done today. I don't see how you can unilaterally declare BF is a bust just because there was no deal you and a lot of other SDers liked. As we all know, the average person isn't as savvy at finding the deals as your average SDer.

You will always have people showing up for the door busters but i'm quite certain that the crowd this year is a smaller number compared to past years. Call it economy or bad deals or whatever you want but that is a fact.

[coup nazi]

Black Friday is more like Brown Friday, cause these deals are all poo-poo!

[jawbonin]

It would be nice if Cyber Monday internet retailers show how Black Friday should have been done. Hopefully they are reading threads like these and getting ready to drop some hints on this website about what to expect on monday.

!

[Techominator]

one of the worst black fridays ever... i'm reviewing the items i bought and I'm thinking to myself why did I even get up at 3.30 am....

[chong67]

I agree. One of the worst deals ever.

I didnt even bother this year.

My best deal was last night right after midnight and get me three 8 GB SD for $5. Well AR.

[F2C]

one of the worst black fridays ever... i'm reviewing the items i bought and I'm thinking to myself why did I even get up at 3.30 am....

This is one of the Black Friday's I did not venture out to buy anything in the past 10 years

[devil899]

I agree. This BF was a huge disappointment for DW. No sales at all in some stores. :eek: They were just everyday prices. Only Kohls had a good sale.

[warlock110]

1st bf I walked off without buying anything, ridiculous. I was gonna buy some stuff, but while waiting in the line, I keep having 2nd thought, so I say fark it and walk off.

[bobbutts]

I did not participate in BF this year for the first time in awhile. Not a single deal I wanted.

[hsjpatman]

This is the first year, for as long as I can remember, where I bought NOTHING.

[bernardino]

Worst BF ever. Last year there were some decent deals, but people showed up at stores at 8 a.m. Thursday! This year, deals were worse than last years and people were showing up even earlier!

Two years ago, there were some decent deals and you just had to show up by noon to be one of the first 10 people in line. Three years ago, you could show up at 4 p.m., after enjoying a nice thanksgiving meal, and still be one of the first 10 people in line. Comparatively, this BF is the worst ever. People may be showing up at the stores still, but they are spending a LOT less money. The retailers will regret this.

[xpertinfun]

Not to fret, I am sure we will see these prices or better until next black friday at least. No one will be buying plasma tv's and laptops with the credit crunch or the way the economy is going.

I have got it from a good source that retailers will be willing to take a loss on the big ticket items just to keep their lights on this next year.

I believe there will be some astounding deals this year on SD.

[SlickEnW]

Not to fret, I am sure we will see these prices or better until next black friday at least. No one will be buying plasma tv's and laptops with the credit crunch or the way the economy is going.

I have got it from a good source that retailers will be willing to take a loss on the big ticket items just to keep their lights on this next year.

I believe there will be some astounding deals this year on SD.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. They apparently weren't willing to take a HUGE loss on this year's deals, atleast best buy wasn't,so they might not have lights to keep on ;) They had plenty of buzz built up for them but they didn't take advantage of the opportunity. Heck, people were waiting in line before even seeing the ads . BB had the opportunity to clear out their entire inventory on this very day. A few coupons here and there, or perhaps a storewide % off like the clothing retailers do. If you are tryign to attract the masses, you generally do so by offering extremely low prices and make your margins in volume , whilist keeping a future lean supply chain to lower costs. What I suspect retailers did, perhaps in their best interest, is keep margins, and ultimately a higher retail price which would favor the house more than the consumer and shun consumers looking for a better-than average deal.

Sad too. As a one time freelancer I would have told anyone who wanted a cut-rate deal to go to hell, but if he and 20 of his closest friends wanted that deal (with the chance of repeat business) I would have been all over it. Would've increased my portfolio, too.

[newmedia]

I completely agree that customer service is still paramount for many customers. I shop at Costco for the same reason you do, customer service and value is at the core of their business. They have not compromised from this and they treat their employees with respect and empower them to make decisions that most companies would never allow. They consistently find new ways to leverage their powerful customer base and build upon the store experience to make people happier.

But the truth is in the results, and noone can argue against Wal Mart's bottom line results. They are kicking everyone's ass and taking names.

great that your paying yearly membership fees and buy items in bulk in a garage sale settings where you pretty much have to bag your own stuff by bringing your own bags or find a empty boxes...

ask cosco employee how much they get paid in hour and how hard is getting a another job like that , empower their employees do what?

[MattG]

I'm trying to interpret your post? You realize that Costco employees make WAY more then Walmart employees right? Like nearly TWICE as much? PLUS benefits?

Anyway... don't anybody get me wrong... I'm VERY loyal to the companies that have been good to me. I'm a die-hard Costco fan... it just happens that they didn't have anything to impress me much this BF.

I'm still leaning towards the 50" 720p Panny at Sears... I'm bummed about a missed opportunity on Amazon... but hey... whatta' ya' gonna' do? I've cried over too much spilt milk in the past.

Overall this BF hasn't impressed me much... but I did get 2 items that I've wanted for months... not really at blow-out prices... but at least at prices that I know I won't be able to beat any time soon. Whatever.

[BobbaGanoosh]

Black Friday is more like Brown Friday, cause these deals are all poo-poo!

You've got a real foul mouth.

[Ion Control]

You've got a real foul mouth.

Since he typed it, wouldn't it be "foul fingers"...?

[chevy4lyf]

great that your paying yearly membership fees and buy items in bulk in a garage sale settings where you pretty much have to bag your own stuff by bringing your own bags or find a empty boxes...

ask cosco employee how much they get paid in hour and how hard is getting a another job like that , empower their employees do what?

Yeah I don't know if you are just ignorant about Costco's business structure (possible considering you don't even know how to spell the company's name) or if you are just jaded about the typical experience at big box retailers. Either way, you are wrong.

In markets where Wal Mart is paying $8/hr for people (Wal Mart typically pays decent wages compared to some others too), Costco will pay $10-12 + benefits. They have a business structure where employees aren't told to "call the manager" for every little decision (which is part of the benefit of a good wage: when base employees make the same as supervisors elsewhere they can make decisions on their own) and even more important is career development. Costco is notorious for promoting from within.

If I am working at Costco, aside from getting a promotion to a salaried job elsewhere that pays a substantial amount more, I would rather stick with the Costco job and work on getting promoted from within at a company that is always expanding and building relationships with its customers.

[tubemonkey]

what size is the bust?

got pics?

LMAO :D

[Godrockdj]

Yeah I don't know if you are just ignorant about Costco's business structure (possible considering you don't even know how to spell the company's name) or if you are just jaded about the typical experience at big box retailers. Either way, you are wrong.

In markets where Wal Mart is paying $8/hr for people (Wal Mart typically pays decent wages compared to some others too), Costco will pay $10-12 + benefits. They have a business structure where employees aren't told to "call the manager" for every little decision (which is part of the benefit of a good wage: when base employees make the same as supervisors elsewhere they can make decisions on their own) and even more important is career development. Costco is notorious for promoting from within.

If I am working at Costco, aside from getting a promotion to a salaried job elsewhere that pays a substantial amount more, I would rather stick with the Costco job and work on getting promoted from within at a company that is always expanding and building relationships with its customers.

What they said. Glad to see that the Costco ignorance has been taken care of before I got here :nod:

This year was a bust. DH and I got up on Friday morning around 7:30 (no rush!) and wandered over to a few smaller stores. I got some craft stuff at AC Moore, he picked up a few dvds at Target. Afterward we decided it would be ok to hit the mall and got some clothing items. Nothing huge - the sales just weren't good enough. Two years ago we camped out at BB for the $200 laptop and $100 desktop :shake:

[missk66]

@ chevy4lyf for your posts quoted below:

Ahhh...I see the f'd-up fairy has visited us again... I'm already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth!!

"Ask those Wal Mart customers that stampeeded a Wal Mart employee to death if they care where their products are made or how inferior the quality is."

I can't believe you posted that! :eek: :jawdrop: WTH is wrong with you? There is low and then there is scum sucking bottom feeders. Guess what tank you are in?

"I don't see how you can unilaterally declare BF is a bust just because there was no deal you and a lot of other SDers liked. As we all know, the average person isn't as savvy at finding the deals as your average SDer."

Nice butter up attempt...........but we SD'rs get ours after a price/m, a dbl coupon, rebate and a complimentary gift........................ you must think we are all idiots. Here's your complimentary gift!

Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view. So nice that you set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public.. You sound like a real people person. Something tells me you started out with nothing & still have most of it left. I'm trying very hard to imagine you with a personality, but no go.Perhaps your short and trying to over compensate? / napoleon complex.?

Did you know that when someone annoys you, it takes forty-two muscles to frown, But it only takes four muscles to extend your arm out and smack'em in the head?????
Congrats, never have I felt the need to list the best 1 liners reserved for ass h---s like you!:shake:

[slickerthanu]

I'm sure you all heard about this: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2008/11/28/2008-11-28_worker_dies_at_long_island_walmart_after.html

I think I'd rather work at Costco. People are crazy.

[Bdubslawman]

@ chevy4lyf for your posts quoted below:...
Nice butter up attempt...........but we SD'rs get ours after a price/m, a dbl coupon, rebate and a complimentary gift........................ you must think we are all idiots. Here's your complimentary gift!

Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view. So nice that you set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public.. You sound like a real people person. Something tells me you started out with nothing & still have most of it left. I'm trying very hard to imagine you with a personality, but no go.Perhaps your short and trying to over compensate? / napoleon complex.?

Did you know that when someone annoys you, it takes forty-two muscles to frown, But it only takes four muscles to extend your arm out and smack'em in the head?????
Congrats, never have I felt the need to list the best 1 liners reserved for ass h---s like you!:shake: Geez did you he run over your cat when you were a kid or what?

[missk66]

No not my cat, just THAT nerve you know the one that makes you want to apply pressure to the neck? Reserved for special occasions & ppl who "make you go ugghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh F*--k"