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Neo Tocqueville
10-10-2010, 11:06 AM
There's a wonderful piece in the New Yorker (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/10/11/101011fa_fact_lizza?printable=true#ixzz11yjtNjU0) on the Climate Change legislation and how/why it failed. But, I don't want to discuss the legislation or the legislation-specific reasons why it failed. I want to focus on the legislative process. Here are some examples of "compromised" being made as the bill was being written. I strongly urge you to read the whole thing. It's long but it'll be worth it. It shows in excruciating detail the legislative process. This is how it happens with every major piece of legislation whether it's the democrats who're behind it or republicans. Some teasers.


As the World Burns: How the Senate and the White House missed their best chance to deal with climate change. (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/10/11/101011fa_fact_lizza?printable=true#ixzz11yjtNjU0)

by Ryan Lizza

[Olympia Snowe] also made it clear that granting her wishes—everything from exempting home heating oil from greenhouse-gas regulations and permanently protecting Georges Bank, a Maine fishery, from drilling—would not guarantee her support. She had used similar tactics to win concessions in Obama’s health-care bill, which she eventually voted against.


That day, Kerry had something specific to offer [to Tom Donohue, the president of the Chamber of Commerce]: preemption from carbon being regulated by the E.P.A. under the Clean Air Act, with few strings attached. Kerry asked Donohue if that was enough to get the Chamber to the table. “We’ll start working with you guys right now,” Donohue said. It was a promising beginning. Soon afterward, Rosengarten and two of Donohue’s lobbyists worked out the legislative text on preemption. The Chamber was allowed to write the language of its top ask into the bill.


[To get his support] Kerry walked [T. Boone] Pickens through the components of the bill that he and his colleagues were writing, but Pickens seemed uninterested. He had just one request: include in the climate legislation parts of a bill that Pickens had written, called the Natural Gas Act, a series of tax incentives to encourage the use of natural-gas vehicles and the installation of natural-gas fuelling stations. In exchange, Pickens would publicly endorse the bill.


Kerry told his colleagues at the March meeting, “Shell, B.P., and Conoco are going to need to silence the rest of the industry.” The deal was specific. The ceasefire would last from the day of the bill’s introduction until the E.P.A. released its economic analysis of the legislation, approximately six weeks later. Afterward, the industry could say whatever it wanted. “This was the grand bargain that we struck with the refiners,” one of the people involved said. “We would work with them to engineer this separate mechanism in exchange for the American Petroleum Institute being quiet. They would not run ads, they would not lobby members of Congress, and they would not refer to our bill as a carbon tax.” At another meeting, the three senators and the heads of the three oil companies discussed a phrase they could all use to market the policy: a “fee on polluters.”


Graham asked Senator Lisa Murkowski, of Alaska, to write the drilling language.


Blanche Lincoln, of Arkansas, told Lieberman that she had a major oil refiner in her state—Murphy Oil—and she wanted to make sure that any cap-and-trade bill protected it.


After the Fox News leak, a rumor had circulated that Congress wouldn’t pass a highway bill because of the Lindsey Graham gas-tax hike; Graham had to appease truckers in South Carolina. Now he insisted on eight billion dollars for the Highway Trust Fund, saying it was his price for staying. ... “Senator, please, just give me five minutes,” Rosengarten told Graham. “I’ll find your eight billion!” She and another Lieberman aide retrieved a spreadsheet they used to track all the spending and revenues in the bill. They fiddled with some numbers and—presto!—Graham had his money. (Later that day, Lieberman figured that, if they were going to spend eight billion dollars on highways, he might as well get some credit, too. He called the American Trucking Association to tell its officials the good news. They responded that they wanted twice that amount.)


There was just one more deal to make. The Edison Electric Institute represents the biggest electric utilities, and its president, Thomas Kuhn, was another grandee in Republican circles. The E.E.I. already had almost everything it wanted: preëmption, nuclear loan guarantees, an assurance that the cost of carbon would never rise above a certain level, and billions of dollars’ worth of free allowances through 2030 to help smooth the transition into the program. Now the E.E.I. had two new requests: it wanted a billion dollars more in free allowances, and it wanted the start date of the cap-and-trade regime pushed back from 2012 to 2015. Within minutes, the senators had agreed to almost everything that Kuhn and his lobbyists were asking for.


The E.E.I. wanted even more if utilities were to be the only guinea pigs for cap-and-trade. This time, the electric companies demanded regulatory relief from non-greenhouse-gas emissions, like mercury and other poisons, as well as more free allowances. Kerry refused to discuss those pollutants, but, in what was probably the nadir of the twenty-month effort, he responded, “Well, what if we gave you more time to comply and decreased the rigor of the reduction targets?” The cap was supposed to be sacrosanct, but Kerry had put it on the table. As a participant said afterward, “The poster child of this bill is its seventeen-per-cent-reduction target. It’s the President’s position in Copenhagen. It’s equal to the House bill.” Now Kerry was saying they could go lower.



I don't believe that any piece of legislation in its 'virgin' form -- coming out of some senator's office, without influence of lobbyists -- is necessarily good. But, this reads like a case of gang rape ... a gang rape where everybody -- from senators to unions/trade association leaders to industrialists to a random guy with tons of money and a memorable name -- gets to mess with the legislation and write his wishes in it. I guess, it happens because we don't trust those in government anyway even though they are the ones we control, not these other people.

So, I want to ask:


Is this the legislative process that we want?

If not, can Tea Party-type movements really change this when, 80%+ of the members of Congress will always be re-elected (if all the Tea-Party backed senators are elected, they'll still be less than 10% of the senate)?

If not, can a third-party President really change this when everything has to originate in the Congress?

If not, are we totally effed?

JackHandey
10-10-2010, 12:01 PM
You have to start somewhere. Changing things takes time, especially when you are trying to change a large and fairly monolithic status quo of politicians that are bought and paid for by special interest groups and corporations.

Neo Tocqueville
10-10-2010, 12:34 PM
You have to start somewhere. Changing things takes time, especially when you are trying to change a large and fairly monolithic status quo of politicians that are bought and paid for by special interest groups and corporations.

From Obama's mouth (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100920/ap_on_bi_ge/us_obama_economy) to your keyboard :D [j/k]


So you think Tea Party candidates will not be bought and paid for by special interest groups over time? Any specific reason for that? And, which ones are you most hopeful about?

JackHandey
10-10-2010, 12:52 PM
From Obama's teleprompter (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100920/ap_on_bi_ge/us_obama_economy) to your keyboard :D [j/k]

FTFY. ;)

So you think Tea Party candidates will not be bought and paid for by special interest groups over time? Any specific reason for that? And, which ones are you most hopeful about?

I think letting ANY party become too comfortable with the idea of political power is bad, regardless of its ideology. They key here would be diversity, and doing away with the duopoly. Make it too expensive to buy out enough candidates to maintain influence for any single group, or cluster of groups.

The concept of the political party itself is bad, and part of the problem. Force politicians to stand on their own, and rely on their actual individual positions on issues to get themselves elected. If there were more variability and chance involved, more voters would take interest, imo.

Foreveryours
10-10-2010, 04:39 PM
Is this the legislative process that we want?
If not, can Tea Party-type movements really change this when, 80%+ of the members of Congress will always be re-elected (if all the Tea-Party backed senators are elected, they'll still be less than 10% of the senate)?
If not, can a third-party President really change this when everything has to originate in the Congress?
If not, are we totally effed?


No, no, no, and hell yes. What we need is a revolution, a do-over. But I'm guessing we'd end up the same creek.

coulditbeSatan
10-10-2010, 08:42 PM
This is why no one wants to see how sausages are made. But I agree with Neo. This is wholesale rape and we are farked if this is allowed to be "business as usual" in D.C. The part about T.Boone Pickens was scary and quite revealing. Especially in light of his support of the climate bill. The truck drivers too. Graham I wasn't too surprised about but his greed for his support is unconscionable.

I wish I had the answers. As for the Tea Party I like their efforts to "vote the bums out." We desperately need term limits. This article proves it.

Foreveryours
10-10-2010, 10:16 PM
We desperately need term limits. This article proves it.
How so?

jamegumb
10-11-2010, 08:23 AM
No, no, no, and hell yes. What we need is a revolution, a do-over. But I'm guessing we'd end up the same creek.

I agree with these answers and the commentary.

Finally saw Waiting for 'Superman' last night. Two things immediately struck me:

1) Geoffrey Canada's comments about how when he started, he wanted to change the system, but he couldn't even figure out who (or what) was in control of it.

2) Michelle Rhee's complaints about how the system works for the people it pays rather than the end users: "We have taken a blind eye to what is best for kids in order to maintain harmony among adults." (Quote taken from internet; she said something similar in the movie, but I'm not sure it was identical.)


The common theme here: Big organizations get going, and layers upon layers of progress/change/reform/rules/etc. happen to them until they no longer resemble what they were set up to be.

That's why I've been complaining repeatedly in the CA thread about the institution -- we can put in half measures and more reforms, which may or may not help around the edges, but we really need to start over in a bunch of these places. And remove all of the layers and strings to which these organizations are attached, so that we can determine which ones are niceties and which ones are necessities.

Neo notes in the OP: "I don't believe that any piece of legislation in its 'virgin' form -- coming out of some senator's office, without influence of lobbyists -- is necessarily good. But, this reads like a case of gang rape ... a gang rape where everybody -- from senators to unions/trade association leaders to industrialists to a random guy with tons of money and a memorable name -- gets to mess with the legislation and write his wishes in it. I guess, it happens because we don't trust those in government anyway even though they are the ones we control, not these other people."

Isn't it clear that the system's broken and needs to be blown up/restarted? Our Senators keep lying to eachother and pretending otherwise, all in the sake of political power and keeping harmony among adults. Or: not in the sake of serving the people.

BTW, I'll note that in many of these big institutional areas requiring major reform, the main political objector to real change happening is the Democratic party (generally because such reform would likely harm donors). Which makes the party much more conservative than progressive.

Krazen1211
10-11-2010, 08:50 AM
There's a wonderful piece in the New Yorker (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/10/11/101011fa_fact_lizza?printable=true#ixzz11yjtNjU0) on the Climate Change legislation and how/why it failed. But, I don't want to discuss the legislation or the legislation-specific reasons why it failed. I want to focus on the legislative process. Here are some examples of "compromised" being made as the bill was being written. I strongly urge you to read the whole thing. It's long but it'll be worth it. It shows in excruciating detail the legislative process. This is how it happens with every major piece of legislation whether it's the democrats who're behind it or republicans. Some teasers.


As the World Burns: How the Senate and the White House missed their best chance to deal with climate change. (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/10/11/101011fa_fact_lizza?printable=true#ixzz11yjtNjU0)

by Ryan Lizza

[Olympia Snowe] also made it clear that granting her wishes—everything from exempting home heating oil from greenhouse-gas regulations and permanently protecting Georges Bank, a Maine fishery, from drilling—would not guarantee her support. She had used similar tactics to win concessions in Obama’s health-care bill, which she eventually voted against.


That day, Kerry had something specific to offer [to Tom Donohue, the president of the Chamber of Commerce]: preemption from carbon being regulated by the E.P.A. under the Clean Air Act, with few strings attached. Kerry asked Donohue if that was enough to get the Chamber to the table. “We’ll start working with you guys right now,” Donohue said. It was a promising beginning. Soon afterward, Rosengarten and two of Donohue’s lobbyists worked out the legislative text on preemption. The Chamber was allowed to write the language of its top ask into the bill.


[To get his support] Kerry walked [T. Boone] Pickens through the components of the bill that he and his colleagues were writing, but Pickens seemed uninterested. He had just one request: include in the climate legislation parts of a bill that Pickens had written, called the Natural Gas Act, a series of tax incentives to encourage the use of natural-gas vehicles and the installation of natural-gas fuelling stations. In exchange, Pickens would publicly endorse the bill.


Kerry told his colleagues at the March meeting, “Shell, B.P., and Conoco are going to need to silence the rest of the industry.” The deal was specific. The ceasefire would last from the day of the bill’s introduction until the E.P.A. released its economic analysis of the legislation, approximately six weeks later. Afterward, the industry could say whatever it wanted. “This was the grand bargain that we struck with the refiners,” one of the people involved said. “We would work with them to engineer this separate mechanism in exchange for the American Petroleum Institute being quiet. They would not run ads, they would not lobby members of Congress, and they would not refer to our bill as a carbon tax.” At another meeting, the three senators and the heads of the three oil companies discussed a phrase they could all use to market the policy: a “fee on polluters.”


Graham asked Senator Lisa Murkowski, of Alaska, to write the drilling language.


Blanche Lincoln, of Arkansas, told Lieberman that she had a major oil refiner in her state—Murphy Oil—and she wanted to make sure that any cap-and-trade bill protected it.


After the Fox News leak, a rumor had circulated that Congress wouldn’t pass a highway bill because of the Lindsey Graham gas-tax hike; Graham had to appease truckers in South Carolina. Now he insisted on eight billion dollars for the Highway Trust Fund, saying it was his price for staying. ... “Senator, please, just give me five minutes,” Rosengarten told Graham. “I’ll find your eight billion!” She and another Lieberman aide retrieved a spreadsheet they used to track all the spending and revenues in the bill. They fiddled with some numbers and—presto!—Graham had his money. (Later that day, Lieberman figured that, if they were going to spend eight billion dollars on highways, he might as well get some credit, too. He called the American Trucking Association to tell its officials the good news. They responded that they wanted twice that amount.)


There was just one more deal to make. The Edison Electric Institute represents the biggest electric utilities, and its president, Thomas Kuhn, was another grandee in Republican circles. The E.E.I. already had almost everything it wanted: preëmption, nuclear loan guarantees, an assurance that the cost of carbon would never rise above a certain level, and billions of dollars’ worth of free allowances through 2030 to help smooth the transition into the program. Now the E.E.I. had two new requests: it wanted a billion dollars more in free allowances, and it wanted the start date of the cap-and-trade regime pushed back from 2012 to 2015. Within minutes, the senators had agreed to almost everything that Kuhn and his lobbyists were asking for.


The E.E.I. wanted even more if utilities were to be the only guinea pigs for cap-and-trade. This time, the electric companies demanded regulatory relief from non-greenhouse-gas emissions, like mercury and other poisons, as well as more free allowances. Kerry refused to discuss those pollutants, but, in what was probably the nadir of the twenty-month effort, he responded, “Well, what if we gave you more time to comply and decreased the rigor of the reduction targets?” The cap was supposed to be sacrosanct, but Kerry had put it on the table. As a participant said afterward, “The poster child of this bill is its seventeen-per-cent-reduction target. It’s the President’s position in Copenhagen. It’s equal to the House bill.” Now Kerry was saying they could go lower.



I don't believe that any piece of legislation in its 'virgin' form -- coming out of some senator's office, without influence of lobbyists -- is necessarily good. But, this reads like a case of gang rape ... a gang rape where everybody -- from senators to unions/trade association leaders to industrialists to a random guy with tons of money and a memorable name -- gets to mess with the legislation and write his wishes in it. I guess, it happens because we don't trust those in government anyway even though they are the ones we control, not these other people.

So, I want to ask:


Is this the legislative process that we want?

If not, can Tea Party-type movements really change this when, 80%+ of the members of Congress will always be re-elected (if all the Tea-Party backed senators are elected, they'll still be less than 10% of the senate)?

If not, can a third-party President really change this when everything has to originate in the Congress?

If not, are we totally effed?


The only critical points here are 1 and 4. 2 is almost certainly a no.

The legislative process works fine when it needs to. See TARP. See the declaration of war against Japan that passed in 24 hours.

I don't think the process was designed to have Congressional laws micromanage sectors of the economy in the long term. Short term, perhaps. But with health care and cap and trade, some politicians want to completely redistribute wealth across the economy.

These issues didn't exist in the 1800s or 1900s because legislators weren't mean to do as much, and they didn't have the media that they do in the 2000s focusing on their daily lives.

Wasn't there a line in Batman about the Romans appointing 1 man to safeguard the empire? Well, that's what TARP was.

wes
10-13-2010, 10:13 PM
Wasn't there a line in Batman about the Romans appointing 1 man to safeguard the empire? Well, that's what TARP was.

That was the dictator. That got out-of-hand after awhile.

Very interesting read. Though I think we have a chance as long as we bring dueling back into Congress. :nod:

JackHandey
10-16-2010, 02:49 PM
Though I think we have a chance as long as we bring dueling back into Congress.

That would certainly make congress either more civil, or in the very least decrease the number of career politicians. :lol: