Proficiency of Black Students Is Found to Be Far Lower Than Expected [Archive]

Krazen1211

11-10-2010, 06:02 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/09/education/09gap.html

An achievement gap separating black from white students has long been documented — a social divide extremely vexing to policy makers and the target of one blast of school reform after another.

But a new report focusing on black males suggests that the picture is even bleaker than generally known.

Poverty alone does not seem to explain the differences: poor white boys do just as well as African-American boys who do not live in poverty, measured by whether they qualify for subsidized school lunches.

Those include “conversations about early childhood parenting practices,” Dr. Ferguson said. “The activities that parents conduct with their 2-, 3- and 4-year-olds. How much we talk to them, the ways we talk to them, the ways we enforce discipline, the ways we encourage them to think and develop a sense of autonomy.”

The report urges convening a White House conference, encouraging Congress to appropriate more money for schools and establishing networks of black mentors.

What a joke. Congress has tried 'appropriating more money for schools' for decades. It is the prime definition of throwing good money after bad.

US state and local governments have engaged in utterly ridiculous amounts of education spending (http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/edgraph.html) since 1985. It's time to cut the pork.

wikipost

11-10-2010, 06:02 AM

Look..someone made a wiki for no reason. Aren't they cool?

shhaggy

11-10-2010, 06:11 AM

Lilian

11-10-2010, 06:32 AM

US state and local governments have engaged in utterly ridiculous amounts of education spending (http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/edgraph.html) since 1985. It's time to cut the pork.

Is spending on education really that bad? Also, should society/government just give up on under-performing poor students?

paperboy05

11-10-2010, 06:43 AM

Is spending on education really that bad? Also, should society/government just give up on under-performing poor students?

Yes, no.

barq200

11-10-2010, 06:59 AM

Is there any topic here that you don't default to trying to label someone a racist?

Huxley's castes--alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon-- had nothing to do with race. They had everything to do with social engineers saying that some people were born to rule and others born as servants.

paperboy05

11-10-2010, 07:07 AM

Huxley's castes--alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon-- had nothing to do with race. They had everything to do with social engineers saying that some people were born to rule and others born as servants.

Great, so what does that have to do with this thread?

shhaggy

11-10-2010, 07:18 AM

Great, so what does that have to do with this thread?

Well, you said this:

Is there any topic here that you don't default to trying to label someone a racist?

in response to this:

I think he's been reading too much brave new world. But what do I know? I'm just a Beta!

and it was stupid because of this:

Huxley's castes--alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon-- had nothing to do with race. They had everything to do with social engineers saying that some people were born to rule and others born as servants.

So he called you on it.

paperboy05

11-10-2010, 07:23 AM

So his post wasn't an attempt to show Krazen was racist by referencing a book that talks about lower castes? One doesn't have to specifically mention race to see what he was trying to do by bringing up lower castes in a thread about study of black education.

shhaggy

11-10-2010, 07:25 AM

My response was dealing with line of posts, not just the one I quoted, perhaps I wasn't clear.

But the thread and comment that you chose to quote him in had absolutely nothing to do with the observation you made.

digitalhandle

11-10-2010, 07:30 AM

And if libs had their way, our gov't would be $100 trillion dollars in debt by education spending... :whee:

No, but a high-quality education is a considerably better investment than wars of choice overseas. And a lot less expensive.

Well, you said this:

in response to this:

and it was stupid because of this:

So he called you on it.

:nod: :lmao:

paperboy05

11-10-2010, 07:30 AM

But the thread and comment that you chose to quote him in had absolutely nothing to do with the observation you made.

And I revised my post to show how it does. But still, what do his posts have to do with this thread then?

No, but a high-quality education is a considerably better investment than wars of choice overseas. And a lot less expensive.

So a high-quality education is guaranteed by additional spending? :shake:

Krazen1211

11-10-2010, 07:32 AM

No, but a high-quality education is a considerably better investment than wars of choice overseas. And a lot less expensive.

This is a pure lie.

Slvrshot

11-10-2010, 07:54 AM

It's pretty sad when you first hear about it. But after listening to Princeton professor Melissa Harris-Perry speak about it, I believe you really have to take time to examine the numbers and put them into context. I don't want to sit here and explain everything she said but it did make sense. In any case, nearly all of the black guys I grew up with (I'm black I might add) graduated from high school, have graduated from college, are in the process of graduating, are going or already in graduate school. We all grew up in the suburbs in middle class families. I honestly think this problem might be more pervasive in the bigger cities.

ashcampbell

11-10-2010, 08:58 AM

No, but a high-quality education is a considerably better investment than wars of choice overseas. And a lot less expensive.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66
The link says we spent $562.3 billion in 2006–07.

http://costofwar.com/
I checked out their reasoning and sources and they seem sound.
The iraq and afgan wars since 2001 = 1,105 billion. But continue to increase with every second.

So 2 years of just education spending going by the first source's numbers pushes past the cost of the 2 wars since 2001.

redpoint5

11-10-2010, 09:03 AM

Subsidized school lunches is not a good way to qualify poor and not poor, it's not policed at all, it's just a questionnaire. Officials at my sister's school back in the day practically told parents to lie on the paperwork to get free lunch.

So what you are saying is more white families than black families are lying about income just to get free lunches, and this invalidates the OP's premise? Do you disagree with the premise, that poverty alone does not accurately predict educational achievement (or lack thereof)?

Is spending on education really that bad? Also, should society/government just give up on under-performing poor students?

Spending on education should not be bad, but unfortunately many of our educational dollars are squandered in this country. We have an ape-like reaction in this country to throw money at problems without addressing the root cause.

"Education" is not the answer to everything. For example, kids receive a lot of education about drugs and the many ways they are harmful for us. We even educate kids about peer pressure and offer ways to not succumb to it, and yet people still try them.

People don't merely need education, they need inspiration.

It's pretty sad when you first hear about it. But after listening to Princeton professor Melissa Harris-Perry speak about it, I believe you really have to take time to examine the numbers and put them into context.

Do you have a link to this? I'm interested to hear another perspective.

shhaggy

11-10-2010, 09:05 AM

So what you are saying is more white families than black families are lying about income just to get free lunches, and this invalidates the OP's premise? Do you disagree with the premise, that poverty alone does not accurately predict educational achievement (or lack thereof)?

I didn't take any position, I'm just pointing out a potential source of error. The study could very well have an accurate conclusion, but it places an awful lot of weight on the demographics of subsidized lunches which I think it foolhardy. I certainly agree with the premise, I think it's clear that different cultures place different emphasis on education. I don't necessarily agree though that within the same community, American blacks and whites have substantially different "cultures".

Slvrshot

11-10-2010, 09:07 AM

So what you are saying is more white families than black families are lying about income just to get free lunches, and this invalidates the OP's premise? Do you disagree with the premise, that poverty alone does not accurately predict educational achievement (or lack thereof)?

Spending on education should not be bad, but unfortunately many of our educational dollars are squandered in this country. We have an ape-like reaction in this country to throw money at problems without addressing the root cause.

"Education" is not the answer to everything. For example, kids receive a lot of education about drugs and the many ways they are harmful for us. We even educate kids about peer pressure and offer ways to not succumb to it, and yet people still try them.

People don't merely need education, they need inspiration.

Do you have a link to this? I'm interested to hear another perspective.

Unfortunately I do not as it was on MSNBC.

chuck07

11-10-2010, 09:52 AM

What happened to the 'bad boy schools' that the older generations have told me about?

Also, would it be fair to say that not everybody needs to know physics, trig or the way that Shakespeare wrote? Why not have some sort of formula that analyzes early performance of a student over time and if it follows the trend of someone who is not going to pursue a career that requires a college degree, give them the choice to go to a variety of trade schools? Emphasis on choice.
Maybe giving the choice to everybody would be better.

This would clear out some crowding and create an atmosphere of people that want to learn.
And then those who want to go to a trade school after high school have a head start.

I would venture to say that if a kid can't understand algebra by 11th grade, or he doesn't care to, he won't care to get a physics degree. Getting him involved in something where he can see immediate positive feedback, such as a car shop or wood shop, may be a better source of inspiration.

Then there is the aspect of fathers, fathers.... But I don't see that as a predominantly black thing around DC metro area.

Maybe it is just the rap music? (hides)

Also, the article focused on males, not black boys and girls

redpoint5

11-10-2010, 10:15 AM

adams135

11-10-2010, 10:18 AM

[....Congress to appropriate more money ...

The answer to every problem out there.

shhaggy

11-10-2010, 10:25 AM

chuck07

11-10-2010, 10:27 AM

But, to be someone, you must have a college degree. You are nobody without one and are destined to live a lowly life of squalor. I know this to be true because that is what our public educational system has taught me.

Of course I agree with all of your points. College isn't for everyone (it isn't for me, and I'm smart), and people that aren't likely to benefit greatly from college should not waste their time and money on it.

If you are smart, you would have gone to college... /sarcasm

But now that some people think they have to go to college to be smart or make a lot of money, they will do that, and eventually, some colleges may become diluted like high schools.

I worked as an electrician (assistant/summer help) in the summers of high school. Some young (~30) foremen, basically project managers on site, were making close to 100k, if all the added benefits of taking scrap to the junkyard were taken into account, they were making over that much.
There are people with grad degrees (teachers) making <60k (ones I know). And I am sure most people don't make close to that much 100k with a degree by the time they are 30.

SlickEnW

11-10-2010, 10:30 AM

redpoint5

11-10-2010, 10:45 AM

oy. these percentages remind me of growth statistics of the former USSR.

They should show numbers instead. Otherwise it's just a "lets blame all of our nation's ills on blacks (13.1% of the population) and feel good about ourselves" article (as usual).

Percentages are much more useful for analysis. If you told me 1200 black students dropped out from a particular school district, I have no idea if that is a lot comparatively.

We might as well blame all of our nations ills on males, since females do better in school.

riptide_slick

11-10-2010, 11:04 AM

farnan

11-10-2010, 11:06 AM

So when faced with horrible school results, one side says "SPEND MORE!" and the other says "SPEND LESS!". Ugh... No wonder nothing productive gets done in this country.

StarNova

11-10-2010, 11:13 AM

So when faced with horrible school results, one side says "SPEND MORE!" and the other says "SPEND LESS!". Ugh... No wonder nothing productive gets done in this country.

I think school choice is the way to go. Especially for minority students in struggling schools. There's also another statistic that many don't want to talk about. Sadly, 72% of African American children are born to unwed mothers. That's a rough road - no matter what color your skin is. Single parenthood can be a struggle, especially economically.

"According to Children-our investment.org, homes without fathers ultimately affect children in numerous tragic ways:

* 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes
* 90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes
* 85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes
* 80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes
* 71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes
* 85% of all youths in prison come from fatherless homes."

http://www.bvblackspin.com/2010/11/08/72-percent-of-african-american-children-born-to-unwed-mothers/

Slvrshot

11-10-2010, 11:18 AM

My opinion is that some of the teachers unions need to be dissolved, state test need to be eliminated, and higher standard of teaching needs to be held.

ikrit

11-10-2010, 11:27 AM

We might as well blame all of our nations ills on males, since females do better in school.

Or maybe we take a more reasonable approach and realize that if girls are doing much better than boys in aggregate then maybe it's not the boys that are the problem, but rather the education system's handling of them.

Females don't necessarily do better in school. However I've found (in teaching math-related college courses) that the best students tend to be the males that are just naturally gifted and the females that aren't as naturally gifted but willing to work really hard.

I'd agree with the statement that females are definitely more studious on average...than males. But I don't think one gender necessarily "does better" than the other.

I've seen this in every race....white, asian, black, hispanic women all study a helluva lot harder than their male counterparts.

And going back to the OP, it's pretty sad in that if I showed you my class grades you could see that the black males have significantly lower scores. The only thing I can attribute it to is laziness.

farnan

11-10-2010, 11:35 AM

I think school choice is the way to go. Especially for minority students in struggling schools.

How so?

There's also another statistic that many don't want to talk about. Sadly, 72% of African American children are born to unwed mothers. That's a rough road - no matter what color your skin is. Single parenthood can be a struggle, especially economically.

"According to Children-our investment.org, homes without fathers ultimately affect children in numerous tragic ways:

* 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes
* 90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes
* 85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes
* 80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes
* 71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes
* 85% of all youths in prison come from fatherless homes."

http://www.bvblackspin.com/2010/11/08/72-percent-of-african-american-children-born-to-unwed-mothers/

Yes, parents play a HUGE role in this. Not sure how school choice helps this problem.

riptide_slick

11-10-2010, 11:39 AM

Females don't necessarily do better in school.

Last year 34% of preschool children were expelled and 87% of them were boys
81% of children "kicked out" of school last year were boys
Boys are 6 times more likely to be "misdiagnosed" with ADD or ADHD
Boys are 4 times more likely to be labeled special education
Boys are 7 times more likely to be labeled wiith reading or language delays
Boys are more likely not to complete high school
Boys are 9 times more likely to be labeled with a behavioral problem
Boys are 4 times more likely to commit suicide

Seems rather disproportionate to me. Our entire education system is setup such that boys and girls are treated as equals, when in reality there are massive differences between how we learn and the kinds of things we respond to.

ikrit

11-10-2010, 12:07 PM

Last year 34% of preschool children were expelled and 87% of them were boys
81% of children "kicked out" of school last year were boys
Boys are 6 times more likely to be "misdiagnosed" with ADD or ADHD
Boys are 4 times more likely to be labeled special education
Boys are 7 times more likely to be labeled wiith reading or language delays
Boys are more likely not to complete high school
Boys are 9 times more likely to be labeled with a behavioral problem
Boys are 4 times more likely to commit suicide

Seems rather disproportionate to me. Our entire education system is setup such that boys and girls are treated as equals, when in reality there are massive differences between how we learn and the kinds of things we respond to.

Oh sorry - my "anecdotal evidence" only applies to college students.

I don't have much experience with primary/secondary students.

ikrit

11-10-2010, 12:12 PM

My opinion is that some of the teachers unions need to be dissolved, state test need to be eliminated, and higher standard of teaching needs to be held.

Yes, parents play a HUGE role in this. Not sure how school choice helps this problem.

This is why I hate it when people just say "oh we need higher standards of teaching". Teaching and learning is a TWO-way street. A kid has to want to learn to be taught. Parents directly influence that.

Face it - kids are more interested in hannah montana and justin bieber than calculus, physics, and history. Our society is getting dumber every day and we blame it on teachers....pffft

digitalhandle

11-10-2010, 01:22 PM

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66
The link says we spent $562.3 billion in 2006–07. When you add in secondary ed, capital outlay, and interest it equals 1,116.7 billion.
Your link says $562.3 billion. Don't know where you are getting the second amount.

Spending the approximately $10,000 per student per year is a much better investment than the $1 million per soldier per year (http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/282238).

(Or, $1 billion per year (http://evans-politics.com/u-s-spends-1-billion-a-year-on-each-al-qaeda-in-afghanistan.html) for each al Qaeda member.)

http://costofwar.com/
I checked out their reasoning and sources and they seem sound.
The iraq and afgan wars since 2001 = 1,105 billion. But continue to increase with every second.

So 2 years of just education spending going by the first source's numbers pushes past the cost of the 2 wars since 2001.

The true cost of the Iraq war: $3 trillion and beyond (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/03/AR2010090302200.html)

Writing in these pages in early 2008, we put the total cost to the United States of the Iraq war at $3 trillion. This price tag dwarfed previous estimates, including the Bush administration's 2003 projections of a $50 billion to $60 billion war.

But today, as the United States ends combat in Iraq, it appears that our $3 trillion estimate (which accounted for both government expenses and the war's broader impact on the U.S. economy) was, if anything, too low. For example, the cost of diagnosing, treating and compensating disabled veterans has proved higher than we expected.

Moreover, two years on, it has become clear to us that our estimate did not capture what may have been the conflict's most sobering expenses: those in the category of "might have beens," or what economists call opportunity costs. For instance, many have wondered aloud whether, absent the Iraq invasion, we would still be stuck in Afghanistan. And this is not the only "what if" worth contemplating. We might also ask: If not for the war in Iraq, would oil prices have risen so rapidly? Would the federal debt be so high? Would the economic crisis have been so severe?

The answer to all four of these questions is probably no.

JackHandey

11-10-2010, 01:33 PM

So dh, how much of those war costs are above and beyond what the normal costs are for maintaining a standing military?

ashcampbell

11-10-2010, 02:35 PM

Your link says $562.3 billion. Don't know where you are getting the second amount.

But today, as the United States ends combat in Iraq, it appears that our $3 trillion estimate (which accounted for both government expenses and the war's broader impact on the U.S. economy) was, if anything, too low. For example, the cost of diagnosing, treating and compensating disabled veterans has proved higher than we expected.

"School districts had total expenditures of approximately $562.3 billion in 2006–07, including about $476.8 billion in current expenditures for public elementary and secondary education. Of the remaining expenditures, $62.9 billion was spent on capital outlay, $14.7 billion on interest payments on debt,..."

I misread my own link. I'll correct that post.

coulditbeSatan

11-10-2010, 05:12 PM

How so?

Yes, parents play a HUGE role in this. Not sure how school choice helps this problem.I thought you took your football and went home while kicking sand in our faces?

So dh, how much of those war costs are above and beyond what the normal costs are for maintaining a standing military?

*crickets*

The poor white boys did better than the poor black boys. Probably safe to say the poor Asian boys would have done better than all groups and poor Hispanic boys would have been close to or about equal in outcome to the poor white boys. How long before society is finally ready to admit that blacks are not as intelligent overall? Sure it's not PC like a lot of other facts but that way perhaps special programs for blacks could be instituted instead of making everyone else suffer by lowering standards to dumb everyone down equally.

StarNova

11-10-2010, 05:49 PM

I think school choice is the way to go. Especially for minority students in struggling schools.

How so?

We live near a large city. Some of the inner city schools (mostly black and/or hispanic) are hell holes. I won't let a dog I like walk near some of those buildings. Drugs, violence, and sexual assualt on school property have occurred. Less than half the students graduate there. Over half the students read below grade level. They don't have a future. At least with school vouchers they have the hope of a better education. Every year they have a lottery for magnet schools. Thousands turn out to get their children a good school - only a lucky few get in. It's pathetic how we treat poor children, especially poor black children.

I think we should have the parents choose the schools for their children. Bring back trade schools for kids who don't want to go to college. At least they could have skills for the future. Close the worst schools and start over. Get rid of teachers who can't perform. I was so excited for Washington DC. The children (mostly poor and black) got vouchers. They went to better schools. They got better grades and had a chance at a better life. Then the unions crushed any chance of making the system better. Killed the voucher program. The children are back in sub-standard schools. Many won't graduate.

Watch this movie and you'll have an idea why I'm on my soapbox.

http://www.waitingforsuperman.com/

riptide_slick

11-10-2010, 06:04 PM

Krazen1211

11-10-2010, 06:28 PM

So dh, how much of those war costs are above and beyond what the normal costs are for maintaining a standing military?

It's a stupid figure anyway. That $3 trillion double counts 'interests' and 'opportunity costs' and also spreads over a long horizon.

Hawk2007

11-10-2010, 06:28 PM

Foreveryours

11-10-2010, 06:33 PM

Feel free to call me a racist, but there is a certain social stigma that exists in some parts of the black community about excelling in school and studying hard. To some, it's "acting white".

Unfortunately, by in large most black youth will not be succesful in profesional athletics and/or the entertainment industry such that they can suck at school.
Racist.

Too bad you won't see it.

coulditbeSatan

11-10-2010, 06:39 PM

Have you ever seen an inner city school?Yeah lots of undisciplined black students doing everything they can to disrupt the class....if they even bother going to class. But they still pass!

I don't think blacks are sub-standard in intelligence. Your opinion is nice but statistics on I.Q. and standardized tests prove differently. SAT's too.

They are not given the same education or access to education that others have. They? How about they don't want to learn?

Most young black children come from unwed mothers.And black single mothers are over represented just as blacks are in other statistics. The career choice of many is 'gibs birf' because each mouth to feed means a 'raise' wrt welfare. It just makes the problem worse when the kids are unwanted for anything more than a bigger welfare check.

Like this woman: link (http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/apr/21/211620/homeless-mother-15-says-she-needs-help-justice/news-metro/)

This morning, inside the dingy motel room, Adams handed out a list of her children's names and ages. Across the top: "Three fathers. One Mother. Fifteen Children."
Ten of the children, she said, were fathered by Garry Brown, currently serving a five-year prison term for dealing cocaine. A sampling of his kids' names: Garry Nesha, Garry Brown Jr., Garry Lethia, Garryiell and Garry Rick.

This quote from her is priceless:

With measured indignation, Adams said somebody owes her.She made the choice to have 15 children by three different baby daddies with the most recent baby daddy in prison....and society owes her. Yeah. She really isn't the exception either. Look around at black families.

They are automatically at an economic disadvantage. False. The poor white boys did better than the poor black boys.

If you're serious, I think you don't know enough black folks. There's smart ones and dumb ones, just like every other race) I know and have known plenty of black folks. Both good and bad. And I used the word 'overall' for a reason. :wink5:

I don't normally quote or link to from/to a blog but the article in this post is very good and is similar to what I have seen myself in predominantly black schools and classrooms. link (http://martynemko.blogspot.com/2009/06/white-teacher-speaks-out-what-is-it.html)

JackHandey

11-10-2010, 06:41 PM

Racist.

Too bad you won't see it.

If my memory serves right, you are both Asian and an accountant.

How many black accountants do you know, and how many of them are good at it?

chuck07

11-10-2010, 06:44 PM

Foreveryours

11-10-2010, 07:04 PM

If my memory serves right, you are both Asian and an accountant.

How many black accountants do you know, and how many of them are good at it?
Sorry, not an accountant.

discoverEdeals

11-10-2010, 07:27 PM

The poor white boys did better than the poor black boys. Probably safe to say the poor Asian boys would have done better than all groups and poor Hispanic boys would have been close to or about equal in outcome to the poor white boys. How long before society is finally ready to admit that blacks are not as intelligent overall? Sure it's not PC like a lot of other facts but that way perhaps special programs for blacks could be instituted instead of making everyone else suffer by lowering standards to dumb everyone down equally.

First of all, their definition of poor was extremely broad and inaccurate.

Secondly, as a society we tend to do a farking fantastic job at confusing culture with race. A great example of this is the standard "ethnic breakdown" we use when comparing statistics. A second generation American of Spanish (Spain spanish) lineage is almost always classified the same way as a first generation American born to ilegal immigrants from Guatemala. A first generation American born to Ethiopian parents is classified the same way as a person who descended directly from American slaves, who's grandmother wasn't allowed to eat in restaurants, who hasn't had a father figure present in two generations. It's a really counterproductive exercise in my opinion - as culture has everything to do with pre-disposition; while race is a zero factor.

To close, you are an idiot. To break down a group of people into black/white/asian a decade into the 21st century is so shortsighted it's unbelievable. We are in a global, fluid, rapidly changing world. Skin color means about the same as eye color, and culture means everything.

*Side note, why hasn't anyone brought up the way public schools are funded? Pulling directly from local, residential, property tax is inefficient and completely unfair. It's inefficient because of the variance of home values (in relation to inflation). It's unfair because the wealthier counties have more money for their school. If we want schools to be equal, we should simply fund them equally. I'm not saying "WE SHOULD BE SOCIALISTS AND JSUT SPEND MORE IMAGINARY MONEY THAT IS GOING TO GET US INTO DEBT MORE TO CHINA SO WE CAN BECOME REAL COMMIES BECAUSE I HATE AMERICA" - I'm just saying "why don't all schools have the same amount of money? I'm not saying it needs to be more money, just the same".

JackHandey

11-10-2010, 07:28 PM

Sorry, not an accountant.

Well, at least I remembered you are Korean...lol

JackHandey

11-10-2010, 07:41 PM

To close, you are an idiot. To break down a group of people into black/white/asian a decade into the 21st century is so shortsighted it's unbelievable. We are in a global, fluid, rapidly changing world. Skin color means about the same as eye color, and culture means everything.

You have your head buried in the sand. There is a voluntary social segregation largely existent between blacks and whites, which is the fault of both groups. We may be a diverse culture, but we are not quite as fluid as you imply.

Most ethnic backgrounds are willing to integrate into the greater whole, and be a part of "mainstream culture". Blacks have a greater tendency to resist integration than any other group. From distinctively different clothing, to having a different dialect in language (slang).

I don't think the problem is physical so much for blacks, as it is a cultural failing. The refusal to be a part of the whole, and then wondering why they are not readily accepted. Then there is the ingrained persecution complex.

The worst part of it, is there are some blacks with their lives in order, are with the program, and are fully capable of being productive members of society. It's the teeming hordes of blacks that are not, which create the negative stigma that holds back the ones that do.

Those that think ethnicity doesn't matter, are unaware of ethnocentrism... Which from what I have read is ingrained in everyone.

Slvrshot

11-10-2010, 07:44 PM

I thought you took your football and went home while kicking sand in our faces?

*crickets*

The poor white boys did better than the poor black boys. Probably safe to say the poor Asian boys would have done better than all groups and poor Hispanic boys would have been close to or about equal in outcome to the poor white boys. How long before society is finally ready to admit that blacks are not as intelligent overall? Sure it's not PC like a lot of other facts but that way perhaps special programs for blacks could be instituted instead of making everyone else suffer by lowering standards to dumb everyone down equally.

Not as intelligent? I cannot believe I just read that racist comment and before you comment on how I pulled the race card let me provide the definition of a racist:

A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

This is basically what you are projecting. I didn't think I'd see that type of bullshit on this message board.

coulditbeSatan

11-10-2010, 07:44 PM

First of all, their definition of poor was extremely broad and inaccurate.You know this from what? The article didn't give all the details you claim to have.

Secondly, as a society we tend to do a farking fantastic job at confusing culture with race.Could it be because different races have different and identifying cultures?

A second generation American of Spanish (Spain spanish) lineage is almost always classified the same way as a first generation American born to ilegal immigrants from Guatemala.Says you.

A first generation American born to Ethiopian parents is classified the same way as a person who descended directly from American slaves, who's grandmother wasn't allowed to eat in restaurants, who hasn't had a father figure present in two generations.So not allowing a black grandmother to eat in a restaurant is why LaQueeshus can't read? :rolleyes:

It's a really counterproductive exercise in my opinion - as culture has everything to do with pre-disposition; while race is a zero factor.Race is a subjective measure we have and can be useful in what it reflects.

To close, you are an idiot. You calling me an idiot is like Obismal blaming Bush for everything under the sun. You're just spouting off at the mouth little boy.

To break down a group of people into black/white/asian a decade into the 21st century is so shortsighted it's unbelievable. So according to you the mere passage of time trumps known facts. Gotcha!

We are in a global, fluid, rapidly changing world. Yeah. We be the world an sh!t.

Skin color means about the same as eye color, and culture means everything.You brought up skin color not me. There are albino Negroes too. Jesus. And you think you are the smart one....

coulditbeSatan

11-10-2010, 07:50 PM

Not as intelligent? I cannot believe I just read that racist comment and before you comment on how I pulled the race card let me provide the definition of a racist:

A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

This is basically what you are projecting. I didn't think I'd see that type of bullshit on this message board.Yes you are just pulling the race card and nothing more. Never did I claim any race superiority or right (or even desire) to rule others. You're just being an ass because you got your feathers ruffled.

And 'basically' what I am 'projecting' is actually what you are projecting. Sorry if statements other than ones that meet your rigid criteria for 'post only what pleases me!' upset you. You don't have to read them.

Just so you know I am a minority and blacks and most liberals have proclaimed that therefore I can't be racist. Only white people are racist......

Slvrshot

11-10-2010, 07:53 PM

Slvrshot

11-10-2010, 07:59 PM

Yes you are just pulling the race card and nothing more. Never did I claim any race superiority or right (or even desire) to rule others. You're just being an ass because you got your feathers ruffled.

And 'basically' what I am 'projecting' is actually what you are projecting. Sorry if statements other than ones that meet your rigid criteria for 'post only what pleases me!' upset you. You don't have to read them.

Just so you know I am a minority and blacks and most liberals have proclaimed that therefore I can't be racist. Only white people are racist......

You just said that you believe that blacks are inferior intellectually and that being black is the primarily determinate of this inferiority. There is no biological basis for "race",yet you used race to single out an entire group of people. What you have done is racist.

JackHandey

11-10-2010, 08:04 PM

You ever thought that maybe all you hear about is the "teeming hordes" of blacks that are anything but "productive member of society"?

Did you hear about the first female general in the air force?
Have you heard anything about the record number of black graduates coming from HBCUs?
Have you done any research on the major breakthroughs that blacks are pushing in biotechnology, agriculture, and energy?
What about the fathers who stick with their families and take care of their kids?
Blacks running for office in both parties?

That stuff is not news worthy. It's better to put up the wanted ads, talk about a crime someone committed, or a highlight from a game.

I am not saying, nor never have said that there are not responsible and intelligent black people that can accomplish great things. The unfortunate reality, is that most blacks do not fit into that category.

JackHandey

11-10-2010, 08:11 PM

You just said that you believe that blacks are inferior intellectually and that being black is the primarily determinate of this inferiority. There is no biological basis for "race",yet you used race to single out an entire group of people. What you have done is racist.

There has been a lot of research that indicates that blacks (males in particular, females not so much) in general have lower IQ scores, and perform worse in school than whites and Asians. Not just in America, either.

Also, blacks generally are better singers, dance better and do better in athletics. We can accept that blacks have greater inherent skills in some areas in general, why can we not do the same for other ethnic groups? There will always be exceptions to the rules... Some white people can sing, dance and do well in athletics. Some blacks are intellectual powerhouses, too. But, the exceptions do not change what applies by and large to the majority of each specific grouping, either.

Each ethnicity adapted to a different environment, and socially had different traits which were considered advantageous for reproductive opportunities. Each has different advantages.

Slvrshot

11-10-2010, 08:12 PM

I am not saying, nor never have said that there are not responsible and intelligent black people that can accomplish great things. The unfortunate reality, is that most blacks do not fit into that category.

And most of the whites, asians, and hispanics don't fit in it either.

JackHandey

11-10-2010, 08:19 PM

And most of the whites, asians, and hispanics don't fit in it either.

Most whites and Asians do not have the dramatic over representation in crime, either. Particularly violent crime. Hispanics also don't generally have the whole "white man holding me down" complex, either.

While I think there are some differences in groups fundamentally, I don't think that in itself is enough to explain the current racial divide. I believe most of the problems stem from differing culture between blacks and whites, than any perceived superiority/inferiority.

Slvrshot

11-10-2010, 08:25 PM

There has been a lot of research that indicates that blacks (males in particular, females not so much) in general have lower IQ scores, and perform worse in school than whites and Asians. Not just in America, either.

Also, blacks generally are better singers, dance better and do better in athletics. We can accept that blacks have greater inherent skills in some areas in general, why can we not do the same for other ethnic groups? There will always be exceptions to the rules... Some white people can sing, dance and do well in athletics. Some blacks are intellectual powerhouses, too. But, the exceptions do not change what applies by and large to the majority of each specific grouping, either.

Each ethnicity adapted to a different environment, and socially had different traits which were considered advantageous for reproductive opportunities. Each has different advantages.

Race/ethnicity is a social construct. There is no scientific basis for it. There have been no scientific studies proving that one "race" is more intelligent, which is in itself an ambiguous descriptor, particularly in regards to brain anatomy. There has been however, numerous studies showing evolutionary divergence of human physiology, and that has been shown both quantitatively and qualitatively.

lerlerler

11-10-2010, 08:27 PM

I LOVE Charter schools but they may not be the best way to address this problem.
The trouble with the "Charter School" Argument is that it appears that parental involvement (defined any of several ways) is one of the best indicators of academic success. Involved parents would get their kids into the charter schools and the parents that either CAN'T (non english speaking, single Mom working three jobs, etc) or WON'T get involved have the kids that need the help the most.. and the public schools would get worse and worse and the kids that need the most help would get the least.

Not just a coincidence the two 1st graders in my daughter's class who can not read yet are the only two whose parents never came to parent teacher conferences ...

and yes, there are early morning and late evening slots available...

discoverEdeals

11-10-2010, 08:28 PM

You have your head buried in the sand. There is a voluntary social segregation largely existent between blacks and whites, which is the fault of both groups. We may be a diverse culture, but we are not quite as fluid as you imply.

Most ethnic backgrounds are willing to integrate into the greater whole, and be a part of "mainstream culture". Blacks have a greater tendency to resist integration than any other group. From distinctively different clothing, to having a different dialect in language (slang).

I don't think the problem is physical so much for blacks, as it is a cultural failing. The refusal to be a part of the whole, and then wondering why they are not readily accepted. Then there is the ingrained persecution complex.

The worst part of it, is there are some blacks with their lives in order, are with the program, and are fully capable of being productive members of society. It's the teeming hordes of blacks that are not, which create the negative stigma that holds back the ones that do.

Those that think ethnicity doesn't matter, are unaware of ethnocentrism... Which from what I have read is ingrained in everyone.

Dude, you're missing my point. American blacks who descended directly from slavery have a completely different culture than African immigrants (for example). There is no "Black" culture. Generally, when people speak of "Black" culture they mean American descendants of slavery and oppression. There are a shit load of people with black skin in the world, it's ridiculous to generalize on skin color. It is generally believed that "blacks have a tendency to resist integration" because many of "them" have parents or grandparents who weren't allowed to eat in the same restaurant as your parents/grandparents.

Regardless, there are also quite a few things going on in our country that illustrate current oppression.

Like a white police office killing an unarmed, detained, black man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0P8TSP2YJU&feature=player_embedded). I mean, the farking cop resigned the next day and got TWO years! He will undoubtably serve less time than Mike Vick (a black athlete, who wears flashy clothes and doesn't want to appease your "mainstream culture") for dogfighting!

Or maybe segregated prom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prom_Night_in_Mississippi). Seriously. In 2008 a town in Mississippi had their first non-segregated prom. Guess which racial group had a separate prom welcome only to their race? The blacks who don't want to be a part of mainstream culture? Nope. The whites.

I mean, this "stuff" still goes on. It can be subtle, but it sure exists. A personal example happened for me just this past week. I broke a throttle cable on my motorcycle and had to get a tow. Truck driver was super nice, very helpful. We talked on the ride back to my place, and he mentioned he had a kid. Mentioned the area they lived in, and that they were looking at private schools. I said "it's great that you're willing to spend all the money for education". He said "yeah, it's pretty dark down my way. she's going to want to start dating soon, that's what I'm afraid of".

As to your example of dialect - I guess we should write off the South, Northeast, and Midwest as regional groups who don't want to be part of mainstream culture.

Slvrshot

11-10-2010, 08:30 PM

Most whites and Asians do not have the dramatic over representation in crime, either. Particularly violent crime. Hispanics also don't generally have the whole "white man holding me down" complex, either.

While I think there are some differences in groups fundamentally, I don't think that in itself is enough to explain the current racial divide. I believe most of the problems stem from differing culture between blacks and whites, than any perceived superiority/inferiority.

Most Whites, Asians, and Hispanics are also not descendants of slaves, nor are they affected by the legacy of such things as Jim Crow. Asians and Hispanics, can thank the Blacks for making their lives a whole lot easier with the desperate push for social justice and equal rights during the relatively recent Civil Rights era.

Slvrshot

11-10-2010, 08:34 PM

No I didn't. You're projecting still and injecting what you want. Yo don't get to do that and expect me to debate your claims.

No biological basis? I guess DNA means nothing then. Or differences found in bone marrow. Or....yeah.

I also didn't single out an entire group but your kind of accusation always makes me chuckle because your type never raises it when Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton (and others) get their hate on for whitey worked up as they egg on a crowd by reminding them 'whites enslaved blacks....whitey owe the black man!'

If you did a little research you would find my posts that prove you are just being emotional; and playing the race card.

:secret: Only white people can be racist according to blacks and many liberals.

You probably don't even know what DNA is. I'm not your little sister, I AM a molecular biologist. As I said, there is no biological basis for race. It is accepted in the scientific community that race is a social construct used to compartmentalize entire groups of people based on their inherent traits e.g. skin color.

Differences in bone marrow? What the hell are you talking about? Do you even know?

discoverEdeals

11-10-2010, 08:36 PM

You know this from what? The article didn't give all the details you claim to have.

Could it be because different races have different and identifying cultures?

Says you.

So not allowing a black grandmother to eat in a restaurant is why LaQueeshus can't read? :rolleyes:

Race is a subjective measure we have and can be useful in what it reflects.

You calling me an idiot is like Obismal blaming Bush for everything under the sun. You're just spouting off at the mouth little boy.

So according to you the mere passage of time trumps known facts. Gotcha!

Yeah. We be the world an sh!t.

You brought up skin color not me. There are albino Negroes too. Jesus. And you think you are the smart one....

This is the most amazing thing I've ever read on the 'net. This puts /b to shame. Even in it's heyday. Thanks sir. Thanks much. You lose the game.

coulditbeSatan

11-10-2010, 08:41 PM

You probably don't even know what DNA is. I'm not your little sister, I AM a molecular biologist. As I said, there is no biological basis for race. It is accepted in the scientific community that race is a social construct used to compartmentalize entire groups of people based on their inherent traits i.e. skin color.

Differences in bone marrow? What the hell are you talking about? Do you even know?Ok now you got your panties all in a twist and are making appeals to authority (Imma molecular biologist so I am right by default! I know everything!) and you are stooping to being insulting. If you really were that intelligent you wouldn't even feel the need to do that. So much for you being a poser on a message board! :rofl2: I'm done with you in this thread.

coulditbeSatan

11-10-2010, 08:43 PM

This is the most amazing thing I've ever read on the 'net. This puts /b to shame. Even in it's heyday. Thanks sir. Thanks much. You lose the game.I have never called anyone on SD a troll.....but there's always a first time. I remember which poster you are now. Yeah you're that guy.

discoverEdeals

11-10-2010, 08:45 PM

I have never called anyone on SD a troll.....but there's always a first time. I remember which poster you are now. Yeah you're that guy.

What guy?

coulditbeSatan

11-10-2010, 08:50 PM

What guy?Your post was deleted by a mod so you'll deny it but I recall it clearly now because of your screen name and writing style.

discoverEdeals

11-10-2010, 08:55 PM

Your post was deleted by a mod so you'll deny it but I recall it clearly now because of your screen name and writing style.

What post was deleted by a mod?! Honestly, I won't deny it.

drsketch

11-10-2010, 09:02 PM

I grew up in a hood, 2 other white kids in my middle school, was poor, and graduated college with honors.
So not sure what this is all about.

btw I am white.

124nic8

11-10-2010, 10:19 PM

What post was deleted by a mod?! Honestly, I won't deny it.

Don't expect any honest answers from Satan. When he's cornered he just slinks away.

He's all ad hominems and flame bait.

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 03:26 AM

Race/ethnicity is a social construct. There is no scientific basis for it. There have been no scientific studies proving that one "race" is more intelligent, which is in itself an ambiguous descriptor, particularly in regards to brain anatomy. There has been however, numerous studies showing evolutionary divergence of human physiology, and that has been shown both quantitatively and qualitatively.

What is race/ethnicity, aside from evolutionary divergence? Biology only sets the potential. I only believe biology is a small part of the equation here, anyway (I believe few people of any ethnicity reach their potential). I think the bigger problem is a defeatist culture that is trapped into thinking that the white man wants them down.

Which is far from the truth. The white man in general wants blacks to do well, and does not want to pay the tab for them anymore.

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 03:29 AM

Most Whites, Asians, and Hispanics are also not descendants of slaves, nor are they affected by the legacy of such things as Jim Crow. Asians and Hispanics, can thank the Blacks for making their lives a whole lot easier with the desperate push for social justice and equal rights during the relatively recent Civil Rights era.

I am the descendant of eastern European Jews. Some of my ancestors are concentration camp survivors, some did not survive. Please don't condescend to me about "oppression".

Yes the legacy... A defeatist attitude that psychologically holds blacks back.

TRNT

11-11-2010, 05:50 AM

I am the descendant of eastern European Jews. Some of my ancestors are concentration camp survivors, some did not survive. Please don't condescend to me about "oppression". Huh? So because your ancestors where survivors and non-survivors, you should be treated differently from others?

That is preposterous.

TRNT

11-11-2010, 05:55 AM

I think the bigger problem is a defeatist culture that is trapped into thinking that the white man wants them down.

Which is far from the truth. The white man in general wants blacks to do well, and does not want to pay the tab for them anymore.The comment that you were responding to was totally generic and did not mention any specific race/ethnicity. Yet yo felt compelled to make yet another dig at the blacks. My amazement is that you did not bring gay sex in to this. :)

You do have blacks and gay sex on your brain. :)

But I give you this: you are an honest interlocutor. Have a good day!

shhaggy

11-11-2010, 05:58 AM

I am the descendant of eastern European Jews. Some of my ancestors are concentration camp survivors, some did not survive. Please don't condescend to me about "oppression".

Yes the legacy... A defeatist attitude that psychologically holds blacks back.

It's a little different when you don't live in the same society that was the oppressor. There're still people living here today that remember the Civil Rights era. You don't have an old Nazi living next door.

Slvrshot

11-11-2010, 06:06 AM

It's a little different when you don't live in the same society that was the oppressor. There're still people living here today that remember the Civil Rights era. You don't have an old Nazi living next door.

Exactly. I don't see how the two are remotely similar. Whatever legacy there is regarding the Jews in Nazi Germany is probably buried in Europe. It was only 50-60 years ago blacks were being segregated, hosed, chased by dogs, lynched, let's not forget about the introduction of crack into black communities. I'll give you an example that is true for a lot of blacks I know including myself. If you were born during the late 70s/early to mid 80s your parents were born during the 50s and/or 60s which was the beginning of the civil rights era. So their generation had fewer opportunities to educate themselves and go on to college (for those that attempted to do so). So now, this is only from my perspective, you are just now beginning to see first time college graduates. In fact, I am the second person in my family to graduate with a bachelor's degree and go on to get my masters. I feel like this is the case for many of my peers. It has nothing to do with my parents not wanting to educate themselves but the difficulty in getting those opportunities to do so. However, to insinuate that blacks haven't had to overcome the legacy of Jim Crow, and that Jews have had a similar plight in this country is pretty ridiculous.

farnan

11-11-2010, 06:12 AM

I thought you took your football and went home while kicking sand in our faces?

I love discussing politics--especially with people with whom i disagree. But when those people act like childish assholes, it is no longer enjoyable. So I've decided to limit myself to discussions with people who aren't complete farking jerks hoping to land a spot on America's Top Partisan Troll. As you can see, i've broken my rule once already--i'm sure there will be other times, but the general rule will be to avoid the assholes.

farnan

11-11-2010, 06:27 AM

We live near a large city. Some of the inner city schools (mostly black and/or hispanic) are hell holes. I won't let a dog I like walk near some of those buildings. Drugs, violence, and sexual assualt on school property have occurred. Less than half the students graduate there. Over half the students read below grade level. They don't have a future. At least with school vouchers they have the hope of a better education. Every year they have a lottery for magnet schools. Thousands turn out to get their children a good school - only a lucky few get in. It's pathetic how we treat poor children, especially poor black children.

I think we should have the parents choose the schools for their children. Bring back trade schools for kids who don't want to go to college. At least they could have skills for the future. Close the worst schools and start over. Get rid of teachers who can't perform. I was so excited for Washington DC. The children (mostly poor and black) got vouchers. They went to better schools. They got better grades and had a chance at a better life. Then the unions crushed any chance of making the system better. Killed the voucher program. The children are back in sub-standard schools. Many won't graduate.

Watch this movie and you'll have an idea why I'm on my soapbox.

http://www.waitingforsuperman.com/

I mostly agree with a lot of what you're saying. ESPECIALLY about trade schools. Training mechanics, plumbers, electricians, etc. will be much more helpful to a lot of these students who don't necessarily take well to a regular course of study.

My issue with the vouchers is this. If the school costs more than the voucher (and i think most will), you're immediately limiting enrollment to those of a certain economic class---thus leaving the poor kids in poor schools that now have even less funding. In addition, if these schools aren't NEAR these poor families, buses won't likely be available and walking is out of the option. This will also limit the poor's access to these better schools. It just seems to me, that if these voucher programs aren't structured properly (and i've heard nothing that makes me believe these concerns would be addressed) the poor are going to get screwed.

I certainly agree that we need to help the kids who actually WANT to learn--but the trick is how to help those who don't necessarily have the family backround that is supportive of a good education (whether due to parental neglect, broken family, parents working too many jobs to make ends meet, etc.). I really see families being the key here---and that isn't anything i think anyone can fix for them--except insofar as they can do their part with their family and make sure their kids get a good education. I don't see any program (federal, state, local or charity) that can help all that much (PLEASE tell me i'm wrong here!)

But i agree that the teachers' unions need to be taken down. They are FAR too powerful and they're strangling school budgets.

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 07:21 AM

It's a little different when you don't live in the same society that was the oppressor. There're still people living here today that remember the Civil Rights era. You don't have an old Nazi living next door.

That society has drastically changed. The bigger problem now, is that blacks don't seem to recognize that it has changed. Are there racists? Sure, both black and white.

However, Jim Crow was abolished, slavery has ended and both have been gone long enough that there are people old enough to vote that remember neither first hand. Yet, those same people that never experienced those things act indignant and resentful about them, as if they have a personal ax to grind.

Not too many black people have an old Klansman living next door, either.

shhaggy

11-11-2010, 07:33 AM

That society has drastically changed. The bigger problem now, is that blacks don't seem to recognize that it has changed. Are there racists? Sure, both black and white.

However, Jim Crow was abolished, slavery has ended and both have been gone long enough that there are people old enough to vote that remember neither first hand. Yet, those same people that never experienced those things act indignant and resentful about them, as if they have a personal ax to grind.

Not too many black people have an old Klansman living next door, either.

No but they have people that lived in a society that supported Jim Crow laws. Jews living in Germany or Poland would understand the feeling, because even though there aren't any more Nazis, there are plenty of people that didn't want them around and that didn't want them back after it was over. And the direct descendants of those people might be better, but the feelings aren't gone yet. It takes several generations to get past that kind of stuff.

TRNT

11-11-2010, 07:44 AM

That society has drastically changed. The bigger problem now, is that blacks don't seem to recognize that it has changed. Are there racists? Sure, both black and white.

However, Jim Crow was abolished, slavery has ended and both have been gone long enough that there are people old enough to vote that remember neither first hand. Yet, those same people that never experienced those things act indignant and resentful about them, as if they have a personal ax to grind.

Not too many black people have an old Klansman living next door, either.1. "Remember" and "first hand" do not go together nicely.

2. You badmouth blacks and gays 90% of the time. The 10% of the time that you complain about whites and heterosexuals, you always include blacks and gays in there too. You are so transparent.

3. Just earlier today you became indignant and told a poster not lecture you because your ancestors were survivors. But now you are telling people not to invoke the past discriminations because it is likely that THEY do not remember them (which is a bogus claim anyway.) The hypocrisy and inconsistency between these statements are just staggering.

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 08:18 AM

1. "Remember" and "first hand" do not go together nicely.

If you remember something, do you not have first hand experience with it?

2. You badmouth blacks and gays 90% of the time. The 10% of the time that you complain about whites and heterosexuals, you always include blacks and gays in there too. You are so transparent.

I am critical of blacks (in general), because there is something to be critical of. It is the cycle of self defeatism that needs to be broken. The resentment of the person that believes they have lost the race, without even bothering to compete.

I am less critical of gays, and more critical of those that fail to acknowledge that there are some places that gays will never belong (places where people undress). I believe that gays deserve to be treated the same as straights in all other circumstances.

The reason both come up as often as they do, is pointing out how inconsistent some people are with their views, and only apply them to pet things of theirs.

3. Just earlier today you became indignant and told a poster not lecture you because your ancestors were survivors. But now you are telling people not to invoke the past discriminations because it is likely that THEY do not remember them (which is a bogus claim anyway.) The hypocrisy and inconsistency between these statements are just staggering.

I was pointing out that I have ancestors that had past repression, but I also do not feel that it has had a direct bearing on my life. Blacks had it bad, but so did Jews. Why is it that blacks are the only minority that can't seem to make it as a whole? Does everyone really believe blacks are that hated?

You seem to be reading all sorts of things into what I say, that have nothing to do with what I have said. From the first time we interacted, you were trying to toss the bigot card around, with less restraint than Lindsey Lohan on a coke binge.

You are a fine one to talk about prejudice, when you think you know my motives and think you can feel morally superior, without even trying to figure out why I hold the position that I do. You don't bother trying to learn, because you arrogantly assume that you know already.

Talk about bigotry...

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 08:23 AM

No but they have people that lived in a society that supported Jim Crow laws.

That are ridiculed, despised and marginalized in our society today.

Jews living in Germany or Poland would understand the feeling, because even though there aren't any more Nazis, there are plenty of people that didn't want them around and that didn't want them back after it was over.

Germany has such strict laws about hate speech, that no one would dare to be a problem to Jews. Or anyone else for that matter. I would have less of a problem with our own laws on hate crimes and discrimination, if they were applied equally to everyone.

And the direct descendants of those people might be better, but the feelings aren't gone yet. It takes several generations to get past that kind of stuff.

Perhaps. But, I also seriously doubt you would be able to find Jews wallowing around claiming they are being held back. They are busy creating their own opportunities.

discoverEdeals

11-11-2010, 08:29 AM

That society has drastically changed. The bigger problem now, is that blacks don't seem to recognize that it has changed. Are there racists? Sure, both black and white.

However, Jim Crow was abolished, slavery has ended and both have been gone long enough that there are people old enough to vote that remember neither first hand. Yet, those same people that never experienced those things act indignant and resentful about them, as if they have a personal ax to grind.

Not too many black people have an old Klansman living next door, either.

Dude, I've dropped this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prom_Night_in_Mississippi) for you like seventeen times on SD. In 2008 a town in Mississippi had it's first integrated prom. Two farking years ago. Many of the white families were so distraught they set up their own all white private prom. This shit still goes on.

How about schol government positions being divided based on race? (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38880820/) This is from this farking year dude.

shhaggy

11-11-2010, 08:32 AM

That are ridiculed, despised and marginalized in our society today.

What? No they aren't. You think anyone over 60 years old is ridiculed, despised, and marginalized in our society? That's BS. In reality they were all alive in Jim Crow America and many were apathetic about the subject.

shhaggy

11-11-2010, 08:35 AM

Germany has such strict laws about hate speech, that no one would dare to be a problem to Jews. Or anyone else for that matter. I would have less of a problem with our own laws on hate crimes and discrimination, if they were applied equally to everyone.

It's not about incidents or laws, it's about knowing that you're living among those people. The laws may change quickly but bias doesn't change that quickly.

shhaggy

11-11-2010, 08:41 AM

Perhaps. But, I also seriously doubt you would be able to find Jews wallowing around claiming they are being held back. They are busy creating their own opportunities.

True but Jews also had it much better off post-Holocaust than Blacks did post-Jim Crow. Jews saw a new nation born for them, they got German reparations, and many left the region and came here. American Blacks had nowhere to go, they still had to live in the same society with the same people. The point is that when laws change, attitudes and bias lag behind, sometimes far behind.

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 08:48 AM

Dude, I've dropped this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prom_Night_in_Mississippi) for you like seventeen times on SD. In 2008 a town in Mississippi had it's first integrated prom. Two farking years ago. Many of the white families were so distraught they set up their own all white private prom. This shit still goes on.

How about schol government positions being divided based on race? (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38880820/) This is from this farking year dude.

I'll concede that in the south there are still racial tensions/discrimination... But in the rest of the country? Not really.

What? No they aren't. You think anyone over 60 years old is ridiculed, despised, and marginalized in our society? That's BS. In reality they were all alive in Jim Crow America and many were apathetic about the subject.

Do you think anyone over 60 is relevant to our culture in any meaningful way?

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 08:51 AM

It's not about incidents or laws, it's about knowing that you're living among those people. The laws may change quickly but bias doesn't change that quickly.

I don't personally care if people like me or not, and quite frankly anyone that lets how others feel about them rule their lives is silly. It's about whether or not people actually get in your way of accomplishing goals.

shhaggy

11-11-2010, 08:54 AM

I'll concede that in the south there are still racial tensions/discrimination... But in the rest of the country? Not really.

Do you think anyone over 60 is relevant to our culture in any meaningful way?

A) yes I do.
and
B) You're still missing the point. While it's clear that younger generations don't carry the same biases, i think it's also clear that they don't necessarily get erased immediately. It just gets watered down as time goes by. So the kid who's dad grew up during Jim Crow might be cool with having class with some black kids in it, but maybe isn't friends with them. His kids might be friends with them, and then his kid might even date a black person. How many people even today wouldn't consider interracial relationships? What reason is there for it other than bias, assuming you grew up in the same culture?

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 08:56 AM

True but Jews also had it much better off post-Holocaust than Blacks did post-Jim Crow.

You think Jews were widely accepted in the US back then? :lol:

I heard the stories from my relatives. I also was mistreated as a child for being Jewish.

Jews saw a new nation born for them, they got German reparations, and many left the region and came here.

Blacks did not need a country, they have an entire friggin continent. Reparations? What are these German reparations? They paid to Jews in Israel, not Jews in general.

American Blacks had nowhere to go, they still had to live in the same society with the same people. The point is that when laws change, attitudes and bias lag behind, sometimes far behind.

They did have the option of returning to Africa. Society has largely changed, as has the options for the black person. It's time to quit making excuses, and start dealing with is, not what was.

shhaggy

11-11-2010, 09:00 AM

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 09:02 AM

You're still missing the point.

Not really. I just disagree with it.

While it's clear that younger generations don't carry the same biases, i think it's also clear that they don't necessarily get erased immediately. It just gets watered down as time goes by. So the kid who's dad grew up during Jim Crow might be cool with having class with some black kids in it, but maybe isn't friends with them. His kids might be friends with them, and then his kid might even date a black person.

How does this impact whether black children can excel in school, or obtain meaningful employment today?

How many people even today wouldn't consider interracial relationships? What reason is there for it other than bias, assuming you grew up in the same culture?

That is dependent on the individual. I had a period of about 5-6 years where I only dated black women. I saw much more controversy over that, than there was about black dudes dating white chicks. There was no end to the BS about it, particularly from black dudes that dated white chicks.

Even still, does that impact how much black people can accomplish intellectually or economically?

shhaggy

11-11-2010, 09:04 AM

Not really. I just disagree with it.

How does this impact whether black children can excel in school, or obtain meaningful employment today?

That is dependent on the individual. I had a period of about 5-6 years where I only dated black women. I saw much more controversy over that, than there was about black dudes dating white chicks. There was no end to the BS about it, particularly from black dudes that dated white chicks.

Even still, does that impact how much black people can accomplish intellectually or economically?

It doesn't, I never reconciled my comment back to the original topic, I just wanted to point out that I thought your analogy to the Jewish diaspora was a poor one.

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 09:05 AM

Saying that Blacks belonged to Africa because they're black is no different from saying Jews belong to all of Europe because they're white, and they can just go back. It's pretty racist IMO. There's no symmetry there. American Blacks had no realistic option to leave, they had been in America for over 100 years.

I didn't say that blacks belonged to Africa, rather that Africa belonged to blacks. Two very different things. Jews had to pack their shit and leave Europe as best they could to escape the camps. Many of them somehow managed to find a way to leave.

Africa belongs to blacks, in the same way that Israel belongs to Jews.

discoverEdeals

11-11-2010, 09:14 AM

I'll concede that in the south there are still racial tensions/discrimination... But in the rest of the country? Not really.

Watch this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0P8TSP2YJU&feature=player_embedded)

Read the facts of the case. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BART_Police_shooting_of_Oscar_Grant)

How would you feel as a black person living in Oakland after watching the video and seeing the weak sentence? The guy was face down, unarmed, hands behind his back, with an officer holding him down with a knee to his neck. Another officer shot him in the back and was sentenced to two years, minus time served. He's due out any time. This is "liberal" California, where white people and black people get along wonderfully. I mean, it's not even in the south, there isn't tension or discrimination!

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 09:31 AM

How would you feel as a black person living in Oakland after watching the video and seeing the weak sentence? The guy was face down, unarmed, hands behind his back, with an officer holding him down with a knee to his neck. Another officer shot him in the back and was sentenced to two years, minus time served. He's due out any time. This is "liberal" California, where white people and black people get along wonderfully. I mean, it's not even in the south, there isn't tension or discrimination!

Blacks in CA are not all peaceful and fun loving people either. I know, I grew up in N. CA.

I watched the video of the BART thing (when it first happened), and believe it was negligence rather than malice.

I believe that with a lot of the problems for the black community there, the blacks bring a whole lot of it on themselves with hostility and a sense of entitlement. I have also spent a good amount of time in the bay area, and Oakland is a complete shithole. If you want to see an interesting cross section of society, spend a day in the Oakland Greyhound station.

I don't think there is a lot of discrimination in CA, but I think there is a good amount of tension. Those blacks that happen to be poor blame their fate upon white people. It must be nice to be able to blame someone when crap doesn't work out for you. White people have to just accept that somewhere along the way they farked up, if they are poor.

shhaggy

11-11-2010, 09:32 AM

I didn't say that blacks belonged to Africa, rather that Africa belonged to blacks. Two very different things. Jews had to pack their shit and leave Europe as best they could to escape the camps. Many of them somehow managed to find a way to leave.

Africa belongs to blacks, in the same way that Israel belongs to Jews.

A continent belongs to them based on race? That's decidedly racist. Can a white man go into any European country and say it belongs to him? You understand that Africa is a collection of sovereign nations, right? It's not just "where black people come from". the American Black has NO right to walk into any African country and demand the right to live there. It is NOT the same as Israel, which was specifically created for Jews.

Foreveryours

11-11-2010, 09:39 AM

Since 1953, West Germany has paid out more than $35 billion in reparations to the Zionist state and to millions of individual "victims of National Socialism."

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p243_Weber.html

Xygonn

11-11-2010, 09:45 AM

Dude, I've dropped this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prom_Night_in_Mississippi) for you like seventeen times on SD. In 2008 a town in Mississippi had it's first integrated prom. Two farking years ago. Many of the white families were so distraught they set up their own all white private prom. This shit still goes on.

How about schol government positions being divided based on race? (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38880820/) This is from this farking year dude.

So we can safely say you are AGAINST affirmative action? Every other year the positions flip races. It assures equal representation. Much like affirmative action.

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 09:45 AM

A continent belongs to them based on race? That's decidedly racist. Can a white man go into any European country and say it belongs to him? You understand that Africa is a collection of sovereign nations, right? It's not just "where black people come from". the American Black has NO right to walk into any African country and demand the right to live there. It is NOT the same as Israel, which was specifically created for Jews.

Are you saying that an American black would not find acceptance in Africa?

I don't think you understand what racist means. Racism is a set of beliefs that one race is inherently superior to another, and should be able to rule over the others. I do not subscribe to those beliefs.

We are the sum of a collection of our abilities/skills. Were the world ruled based simply on intelligence, we would all be accepting the rule of Jews, Asians and Indians (which I doubt many would be happy about). There is more to "superiority" than any one trait, and more importantly, for one group to dominate another justifiably, the level of dominance would have to be overwhelming.

I don't think that is present anywhere.

shhaggy

11-11-2010, 09:51 AM

Are you saying that an American black would not find acceptance in Africa?

I don't think you understand what racist means. Racism is a set of beliefs that one race is inherently superior to another, and should be able to rule over the others. I do not subscribe to those beliefs.

We are the sum of a collection of our abilities/skills. Were the world ruled based simply on intelligence, we would all be accepting the rule of Jews, Asians and Indians (which I doubt many would be happy about). There is more to "superiority" than any one trait, and more importantly, for one group to dominate another justifiably, the level of dominance would have to be overwhelming.

I don't think that is present anywhere.

I don't doubt that anyone would find acceptance in some of the civilized parts of Africa, whether they are black or not. I do doubt that African nations will concur with your position that they "belong" to any and all blacks, simply because they are on the African continent. And I certainly doubt that everywhere in Africa would be accepting of American blacks.

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 10:12 AM

I don't doubt that anyone would find acceptance in some of the civilized parts of Africa, whether they are black or not. I do doubt that African nations will concur with your position that they "belong" to any and all blacks, simply because they are on the African continent. And I certainly doubt that everywhere in Africa would be accepting of American blacks.

I think it would be safe to say that by square mileage, there is at least as large of an area in Africa that American Blacks could find acceptance, as Israel provides for Jews.

shhaggy

11-11-2010, 10:16 AM

I think it would be safe to say that by square mileage, there is at least as large of an area in Africa that American Blacks could find acceptance, as Israel provides for Jews.

A) There're way more blacks than Jews.
B) The American Black would have nothing culturally in common with those they'd be forced to integrate with. You're still creating a clash between Africans and those being reintroduced. It's not the same in Israel, which was newly created.

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 10:29 AM

A) There're way more blacks than Jews.

That is because no one was putting them in ovens or gassing them in showers and exterminating them by the millions.

B) The American Black would have nothing culturally in common with those they'd be forced to integrate with. You're still creating a clash between Africans and those being reintroduced. It's not the same in Israel, which was newly created.

Because Jews the world over are all homogeneous? :lol:

shhaggy

11-11-2010, 10:33 AM

That is because no one was putting them in ovens or gassing them in showers and exterminating them by the millions.

Because Jews the world over are all homogeneous? :lol:

They were fewer in numbers anyway. I never said Jews are homogeneous, but you created a diverse grouping of them from scratch. You didn't try to introduce a new faction to mix in with an older faction. In any case, Jews in general are often much more unified than blacks in general, that certainly is true. Many Jews believe Judaism to be akin to a race, religion, nationality, and culture.

SigX

11-11-2010, 10:46 AM

How about schol government positions being divided based on race? (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38880820/) This is from this farking year dude.

you are aware that the racial quota was started because the justice department was breathing down thier necks.... and that the race of the positions alternates yearly.

there are far better examples of racism than this!

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 10:46 AM

They were fewer in numbers anyway. I never said Jews are homogeneous, but you created a diverse grouping of them from scratch. You didn't try to introduce a new faction to mix in with an older faction. In any case, Jews in general are often much more unified than blacks in general, that certainly is true. Many Jews believe Judaism to be akin to a race, religion, nationality, and culture.

I would say blacks are at least as unified as Jews, and just as likely to screw over their brethren. Look at how easily the black theologians can round up, and mobilize blacks to be outraged.

My question in the end is why do you think American blacks would not be accepted by native Africans?

shhaggy

11-11-2010, 10:50 AM

I would say blacks are at least as unified as Jews, and just as likely to screw over their brethren. Look at how easily the black theologians can round up, and mobilize blacks to be outraged.

My question in the end is why do you think American blacks would not be accepted by native Africans?

Native Africans don't even agree with each other, why would a sudden influx of new people be universally accepted?

Krazen1211

11-11-2010, 11:08 AM

That society has drastically changed. The bigger problem now, is that blacks don't seem to recognize that it has changed. Are there racists? Sure, both black and white.

However, Jim Crow was abolished, slavery has ended and both have been gone long enough that there are people old enough to vote that remember neither first hand. Yet, those same people that never experienced those things act indignant and resentful about them, as if they have a personal ax to grind.

Not too many black people have an old Klansman living next door, either.

You have to understand that its much easier for the Jesse Jacksons to cry racism than it is to deal with the structural and institutional problems of their race. And politicians, unfortunately, decide to pay them off with massive amounts of education and social spending.

They still act like ingrates anyway.

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 11:25 AM

Native Africans don't even agree with each other, why would a sudden influx of new people be universally accepted?

You mean like Israel wrt American Jews?

Israeli Jews at odds with liberal brethren in US (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101031/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_us_religious_row)

discoverEdeals

11-11-2010, 11:47 AM

So we can safely say you are AGAINST affirmative action? Every other year the positions flip races. It assures equal representation. Much like affirmative action.

Hell yes I'm against AA. It's a poorly implemented system that treats symptoms instead of root problems. Especially now.

Systems like the school government fiasco teach kids from a young age that they belong in little boxes based on their skin color. Horrible lesson for children during development.

shhaggy

11-11-2010, 11:49 AM

You mean like Israel wrt American Jews?

Israeli Jews at odds with liberal brethren in US (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101031/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_us_religious_row)

Yea, I mean exactly like that. Because 60 years later it's harder to integrate them, that's the whole point (though some Jewish groups try hard to hedge against this with things like birthright tours to Israel). With blacks you were talking about 100-200+ years later.

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 12:22 PM

Yea, I mean exactly like that. Because 60 years later it's harder to integrate them, that's the whole point (though some Jewish groups try hard to hedge against this with things like birthright tours to Israel). With blacks you were talking about 100-200+ years later.

Yet somehow Jews have found a way to get by here. I think the problem for blacks is a mixture of motivation, and confidence. I do not think indulging the self pity, or coddling them from accepting the responsibility for their fate now is the answer, though.

Foreveryours

11-11-2010, 12:28 PM

shhaggy

11-11-2010, 12:29 PM

Yet somehow Jews have found a way to get by here. I think the problem for blacks is a mixture of motivation, and confidence. I do not think indulging the self pity, or coddling them from accepting the responsibility for their fate now is the answer, though.

But it's not the same thing, Jews were not victimized here. They were not forced to live in the same society. I don't necessarily disagree with the general tone here, all I'm saying is that the comparison to Jews is not a good one.

Gavica

11-11-2010, 12:30 PM

How can you even compare Blacks in Africa to Jews, they don't all even share the same religion and the culture is vastly different from region to region

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 12:35 PM

Then where did the self-loathing Jew stereotype come from?

That's more comparable to calling someone an "Uncle Tom", than saying someone isn't getting off their ass, and handling their business.

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 12:48 PM

But it's not the same thing, Jews were not victimized here. They were not forced to live in the same society. I don't necessarily disagree with the general tone here, all I'm saying is that the comparison to Jews is not a good one.

I think by and large we are a vastly different society than we did when blacks were really oppressed. You want to know the biggest problem blacks face (aside from lack of confidence and motivation)? The lack of willingness to move.

Population density of blacks:
http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/_p2/race_mapti/black_demographics.png

Ancestry Distribution:
http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/_p2/race_mapti/ancestry_distribution.png

:facepalm:

Why do blacks seem to stay in what is apparently the most oppressive places possible for them to live? The problem is not that Americans by and large are racists, It is that by and large blacks live where the racists are in greatest concentration.

shhaggy

11-11-2010, 12:52 PM

I think by and large we are a vastly different society than we did when blacks were really oppressed. You want to know the biggest problem blacks face (aside from lack of confidence and motivation)? The lack of willingness to move.

Population density of blacks:
http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/_p2/race_mapti/black_demographics.png

Ancestry Distribution:
http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/_p2/race_mapti/ancestry_distribution.png

:facepalm:

Why do blacks seem to stay in what is apparently the most oppressive places possible for them to live? The problem is not that Americans by and large are racists, It is that by and large blacks live where the racists are in greatest concentration.

Their legacy belongs just as much in those places as do the racists'. Are you really suggesting that instead of combating potential racism at the root, we should just have the blacks leave the area so racists can live their racist existence in peace?

Lilian

11-11-2010, 12:53 PM

Are you really suggesting that instead of combating potential racism at the root, we should just have the blacks leave the area so racists can live their racist existence in peace?

Well, these racists aren't changing their minds. So yes, the blacks do need to leave. And let's not forget to add that racist people were there first.

shhaggy

11-11-2010, 12:59 PM

Well, these racists aren't changing their minds. So yes, the blacks do need to leave.

Yea, and rapists aren't gonna stop raping, so the women need to stop going out at night or wearing nice clothes.

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 01:00 PM

Their legacy belongs just as much in those places as do the racists'. Are you really suggesting that instead of combating potential racism at the root, we should just have the blacks leave the area so racists can live their racist existence in peace?

It seems to me that the intelligent thing to do would be to move to an area where one is more accepted and will have greater opportunity. If blacks stay there just to be a thorn in the side of racists, they have no one to blame for the hostility they face but themselves.

Smart people GTFO of places that obviously don't welcome them, and relocate to places that generally will. Staying there to "make a point" is pretty expensive to the black community, and something that I question the wisdom of our continued subsidization.

shhaggy

11-11-2010, 01:02 PM

Gavica

11-11-2010, 01:08 PM

Well, these racists aren't changing their minds. So yes, the blacks do need to leave.

Shouldn't Jews then pack up and leave from the Middle east, since they don't like them there?

ikrit

11-11-2010, 01:10 PM

Why do blacks seem to stay in what is apparently the most oppressive places possible for them to live? The problem is not that Americans by and large are racists, It is that by and large blacks live where the racists are in greatest concentration.

Well, these racists aren't changing their minds. So yes, the blacks do need to leave. And let's not forget to add that racist people were there first.

This can be seen as a chicken/egg argument.

Perhaps there is greater racist concentration where blacks live because people tend to observe black people more often simply because there are more black people. Combine this with the fact that most people can easily fall into a stereotype trap when only observing a few bad cases out of many.

I.e. if all the black people in a certain "black-concentrated" area was moved to a different geographical location...do you necessarily think no new racism would arise in that area?

I too want black people to succeed (and I want my black students to succeed just like any of my other students) but it is hard when they hold such terrible attitudes towards their work, not to mention their lack of politeness. I hate to say it but if all the blacks were just moved to a different area, racism and the same problems would just move with it.

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 01:11 PM

How do they have no one to blame when the racist are right there? Blame them! This is making less and less sense as the day goes on. Luckily it's almost quitting time here in NY.

:facepalm:

Because they willingly choose to be in a place that offers them the least opportunity, and surround themselves with people that fundamentally do not like them. If they want to have a race war there, then let them pay for it. The better thing for them to do, is go where the greater opportunity is, and that people do not hate them for their race.

Lilian

11-11-2010, 01:13 PM

:facepalm:

Slightly off topic here. I get the acorn but why does Obama have a cigarette? That just makes him seem cooler.

Xygonn

11-11-2010, 01:20 PM

Hell yes I'm against AA. It's a poorly implemented system that treats symptoms instead of root problems. Especially now.

Systems like the school government fiasco teach kids from a young age that they belong in little boxes based on their skin color. Horrible lesson for children during development.

Well we are agreed then :cheers:

discoverEdeals

11-11-2010, 01:23 PM

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 01:26 PM

Slightly off topic here. I get the acorn but why does Obama have a cigarette? That just makes him seem cooler.

It's been a long time since smoking was considered to make anyone look "cool". Besides, quitting smoking is just another one of his broken promises.

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 01:31 PM

So you're ok with racists representing a significant geographical portion of our great country? Wow dude, you suck.

Not ok with it... It just seems pretty expensive, and isn't accomplishing much by keeping all of the blacks where the racists are. It's more important to get blacks to be self sufficient, than it is to try to change all of the southern racists into tolerant people.

It's like having a school where all the pedophiles live. The smart idea is to move your kid to a different school, rather than think you can change all the pedophiles by keeping an eye on them. It just isn't going to work.

discoverEdeals

11-11-2010, 01:48 PM

Not ok with it... It just seems pretty expensive, and isn't accomplishing much by keeping all of the blacks where the racists are. It's more important to get blacks to be self sufficient, than it is to try to change all of the southern racists into tolerant people.

It's like having a school where all the pedophiles live. The smart idea is to move your kid to a different school, rather than think you can change all the pedophiles by keeping an eye on them. It just isn't going to work.

So racists are pedophiles, but victims of racism are not victims? Or they are victims, but they should figure out the problem themselves? What happened to all of your posts about how there are no signs of oppression in the modern world? I honestly can't believe that you think instructing victims of oppression to move to a new area is a great solution to this problem. The problem that you've been arguing for posts and posts and posts doesn't even exist. Ehh.

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 02:03 PM

So racists are pedophiles, but victims of racism are not victims? Or they are victims, but they should figure out the problem themselves? What happened to all of your posts about how there are no signs of oppression in the modern world? I honestly can't believe that you think instructing victims of oppression to move to a new area is a great solution to this problem. The problem that you've been arguing for posts and posts and posts doesn't even exist. Ehh.

In most of this country, there are not the huge problems with racism. But, I seriously doubt anyone would dispute that racism is rather prevalent in the south.

If you live in a bad neighborhood, where people vandalize and/or steal your stuff, the smart thing to do is move. Sure, you can try to clean up the neighborhood... But, you should not expect anyone else to subsidize your uphill battle, either. Being noble is fine and dandy, but it is a luxury most people can not afford.

Moving is not the only part of the solution, it is simply the first step. It places blacks in a position where they can have a more positive attitude, and also have a better shot at educating themselves and finding meaningful employment.

Is your resistance some sort of veiled "not in my backyard", because you are happy that black people are in the oppressive south, and not in your neighborhood?

I started looking it up, because shhaggy pointed out that blacks live near their oppressors (which holds them back). I thought it would be interesting to see how many blacks were still in the south (you know, where the oppressors are). He also pointed out that Jews have done better, since they left the area where they were oppressed.

Which is why I find it interesting that he opposes the idea of blacks moving away from the oppressors. I guess keeping them out of his neighborhood is more important than having them in an environment where they can actually improve their lives.

Gavica

11-11-2010, 02:13 PM

Jackhandey was probably a big fan of the Apartheid

http://www.south-africa-tours-and-travel.com/images/apartheid-signboard-on-durban-beach-apartheid.jpg

discoverEdeals

11-11-2010, 02:18 PM

In most of this country, there are not the huge problems with racism. But, I seriously doubt anyone would dispute that racism is rather prevalent in the south.

If you live in a bad neighborhood, where people vandalize and/or steal your stuff, the smart thing to do is move. Sure, you can try to clean up the neighborhood... But, you should not expect anyone else to subsidize your uphill battle, either. Being noble is fine and dandy, but it is a luxury most people can not afford.

Moving is not the only part of the solution, it is simply the first step. It places blacks in a position where they can have a more positive attitude, and also have a better shot at educating themselves and finding meaningful employment.

Is your resistance some sort of veiled "not in my backyard", because you are happy that black people are in the oppressive south, and not in your neighborhood?

I started looking it up, because shhaggy pointed out that blacks live near their oppressors (which holds them back). I thought it would be interesting to see how many blacks were still in the south (you know, where the oppressors are). He also pointed out that Jews have done better, since they left the area where they were oppressed.

Which is why I find it interesting that he opposes the idea of blacks moving away from the oppressors. I guess keeping them out of his neighborhood is more important than having them in an environment where they can actually improve their lives.

Dude, DC has a pretty high percentage of African Americans. We also have a super high percentage or people from all cultures, from many different countries. Black people are in my neighborhood. And in my office. And in the bars I frequent. We even have a ton of MUSLIMS!!!!!!!!!! It's actually not the end of the world. Its actually awesome to be around a bunch of different people.

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 02:30 PM

Dude, DC has a pretty high percentage of African Americans. We also have a super high percentage or people from all cultures, from many different countries. Black people are in my neighborhood. And in my office. And in the bars I frequent. We even have a ton of MUSLIMS!!!!!!!!!! It's actually not the end of the world. Its actually awesome to be around a bunch of different people.

Do you think there is a big problem with racism in DC?

chuck07

11-11-2010, 03:13 PM

Do you think there is a big problem with racism in DC?

When I lived in DC, the only other white people on my block were cops rolling through. Older blacks didn't have a problem with me, I had some good times. It was the younger ~< 25, where the problem was.

Yes there is racism in DC.

Go to the richer parts, and you see everybody getting along. Whether it is a show or not is different.

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 03:39 PM

When I lived in DC, the only other white people on my block were cops rolling through. Older blacks didn't have a problem with me, I had some good times. It was the younger ~< 25, where the problem was.

Yes there is racism in DC.

Go to the richer parts, and you see everybody getting along. Whether it is a show or not is different.

Was the racism in DC coming from the blacks or the whites (or both)?

chuck07

11-11-2010, 03:55 PM

Was the racism in DC coming from the blacks or the whites (or both)?

I'm white. Young blacks wanted nothing to do with me, yelled stuff at me sometimes when I was venturing about, vandalized cars, stole plates. Funny thing is, I was a redneck to them. I would hate/love for them to meet a guy straight out of <insert redneck town here>.

I wish it was the older blacks who were 'hatin', and the younger people wanting to 'integrate', unfortunately it is the other way around.

Xygonn

11-11-2010, 04:19 PM

chuck07

11-11-2010, 05:29 PM

My personal experience in DC was from the year 2006. I had a summer internship there and me and the other 7 white engineering policy interns, loved going to a bar in Adams Morgan called the Common Share (now closed). It was basically only young, black people there and they gave us funny looks when we came in but didn't yell at us or anything. By the end of the summer we were well known there, and people got along with us just fine. I probably wouldn't have returned after the first time if the price wasn't sooooo right! 10 dollar pitchers of Yeungling, in Adams Morgan!

In College Park on Tuesdays, up until this week, you were able to get $1 pitchers, although they were about half sized.

Adams Morgan is a nicer place that I was talking about. I worked right outside of DC in Mt Rainer, at an Afrocentric Arts cafe, and had a great experience there. Again in a nicer area.

coulditbeSatan

11-11-2010, 05:32 PM

Don't expect any honest answers from Satan. When he's cornered he just slinks away.

He's all ad hominems and flame bait.Oh the irony!!! :rofl2:

I love discussing politics--especially with people with whom i disagree. But when those people act like childish assholes, it is no longer enjoyable. So I've decided to limit myself to discussions with people who aren't complete farking jerks hoping to land a spot on America's Top Partisan Troll. As you can see, i've broken my rule once already--i'm sure there will be other times, but the general rule will be to avoid the assholes.Good to see you back. You and I have had some good discussions (or I thought so) without being assholes to each other. I look forward to more in the future.

Yet, those same people that never experienced those things act indignant and resentful about them, as if they have a personal ax to grind.This is how blacks clinging to slavery strike me and it's a joke. Not one of them ever experienced slavery....unless they are FOB from Africa and were enslaved there because it still goes on in some parts. To hear Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton (and many if not most blacks) slavery is a bigger problem today than it ever was in the south. I have actually heard blacks discuss 'how long we be holdin' slavery agin' whitey?' The answer is always the same 'as long as we can!' That is racist!

A continent belongs to them based on race? That's decidedly racist. Can a white man go into any European country and say it belongs to him? You understand that Africa is a collection of sovereign nations, right? It's not just "where black people come from". the American Black has NO right to walk into any African country and demand the right to live there. It is NOT the same as Israel, which was specifically created for Jews.I'll scoot in here even though your post was to Jack. This is directly related:

Senegal's president says he will offer free land and "repatriation" to people affected by the earthquake in Haiti.link (http://slickdeals.net/?&u2=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8463921.stm) [co.uk (http://slickdeals.net/?&u2=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8463921.stm)]

As far as I know and from searching with Google I have not found even one Haitian that took President Wade up on his offer. Not one. Free land! 'Repatriation!' That's more than they had in Haiti but no one accepted.

So do you think Senegal would extend this offer to blacks in American instead? The free land is still there. The 'repatriation' offer should still be good too. Think any blacks in America would take the offer? I doubt it! :lol: Why leave the goose laying the golden eggs? No doubt they would be expected to work and support themselves in Senegal. That is a disqualification right there for far too many blacks in America. It's easier to sit on their butts and let whitey support them and even refuse to work even if they can...because it's easier to let whitey support them. Could it be that mentality of too many blacks using history and experiences they never had or earned from slavery to hold whitey accountable? No....never! :lol:

I have seen the name Sharon Jasper a lot on different websites and I finally googled her name not long ago. If you don't know she is a parasitic welfare queen that refuses to work and does nothing but bitch and moan about what she is given in welfare, Section 8, etc. Says she is being treated like a slave.

Here are her 'slave quarters':

[/URL][URL="http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/1shutup3.jpg"]http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/1shutup3.jpg (http://slickdeals.net/?&u2=http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/1shutup3.jpg) [cachefly.net (http://slickdeals.net/?&u2=http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/1shutup3.jpg)] [cachefly.net (http://slickdeals.net/?&u2=http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/1shutup3.jpg)]

"I'm tired of the slum landlords, and I'm tired of the slum houses," she said. link (http://slickdeals.net/?&u2=http://blog.nola.com/updates/2007/12/housing_officials_claim_surplu.html) [nola.com (http://slickdeals.net/?&u2=http://blog.nola.com/updates/2007/12/housing_officials_claim_surplu.html)]

Sharon Jasper has spent 57 of her 58 years dedicated to one cause and one cause only and has nothing to show for her dedicated servitude.... She has lived in Section 8 housing all but 1 of her 58 years. It was a legacy passed down from her parents who moved into Section 8 housing in 1949 when she was six months old. She has passed the legacy down to her children but fears they may have to get jobs to pay for the utilities and deposits.

She laments about her one year hiatus from the comfort of her Section 8 nirvana, 'I tried it for a year -- you know, working and all. It's not anything I would want to go through again or wish on anyone in my family, but I am damn proud of that year.' link (http://slickdeals.net/?&u2=http://www.sodahead.com/living/sharon-jasper-needs-a-plasma-tv---obama-needs-to-help/question-777719/) [sodahead.com (http://slickdeals.net/?&u2=http://www.sodahead.com/living/sharon-jasper-needs-a-plasma-tv---obama-needs-to-help/question-777719/)]

B) The American Black would have nothing culturally in common with those they'd be forced to integrate with. :huh: What about Kwanzaa? Oh right. That's a fake made-up holiday by a black felon. Ok how about all those names that are claimed to be based in Swahili or whateverthehell? 'Shaneequa' 'LaQueefer' 'Dafrenacious Tikeeka Jackson.' I may not have the spellings down correctly (who could?) but I have heard each of those names. More than once or twice. Here is my favorite: 'Le-a.' Even Snopes isn't sure if it false or whatever but the mother complained to the girl's school that the name is pronounced 'la-dash-ah' because the 'dash don't be silent.' :rofl2:

Is your resistance some sort of veiled "not in my backyard", because you are happy that black people are in the oppressive south, and not in your neighborhood?Bingo!

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 06:13 PM

I have seen the name Sharon Jasper a lot on different websites and I finally googled her name not long ago. If you don't know she is a parasitic welfare queen that refuses to work and does nothing but bitch and moan about what she is given in welfare, Section 8, etc. Says she is being treated like a slave.

:rofl2: That chick is pure comedy gold!

'Don't be fooled by them hardwood floors,' says Sharon . 'They told me they were putting in scraped wood floors cause it was more expensive and elegant, but I am not a fool -- that was just a way to make me take scratched up wood because I am black. The 60 inch HD TV? It may look nice, but it is not a plasma. It's not a plasma because I'm black. Now they want me to pay a deposit and utilities on this dump.' 'Do you know why?'

'Just because you pay for my house, my car, my big screen and my food, I will not be treated like a slave!' and 'Back up and Shut up! Shut up, white boy! Shut up, white boy!'

http://www.sodahead.com/living/sharon-jasper-needs-a-plasma-tv---obama-needs-to-help/question-777719/

Wow, just wow.

bonkman

11-11-2010, 06:44 PM

:rofl2: That chick is pure comedy gold!

'Don't be fooled by them hardwood floors,' says Sharon . 'They told me they were putting in scraped wood floors cause it was more expensive and elegant, but I am not a fool -- that was just a way to make me take scratched up wood because I am black. The 60 inch HD TV? It may look nice, but it is not a plasma. It's not a plasma because I'm black. Now they want me to pay a deposit and utilities on this dump.' 'Do you know why?'

'Just because you pay for my house, my car, my big screen and my food, I will not be treated like a slave!' and 'Back up and Shut up! Shut up, white boy! Shut up, white boy!'

http://www.sodahead.com/living/sharon-jasper-needs-a-plasma-tv---obama-needs-to-help/question-777719/

Wow, just wow.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/jasper.asp

coulditbeSatan

11-11-2010, 07:00 PM

http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/jasper.asp (http://slickdeals.net/?&u2=http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/jasper.asp)By posting just the link to Snopes are you hoping to suggest that this is all a hoax wrt Sharon Jasper? Sure looks like it. Had you bothered to read the Snopes page like I did before I posted any reference to Jasper you would have discovered that much of what is 'out there' about Jasper is true. The parts I selected and posted are from the 'true' batch such as her picture in her apartment with here bigass screen HDTV. Snopes doesn't even bring up any contention with her own words I quoted.

The words of Jasper's that Jack quoted are not in contention either....so what are you trying to do other than do a drive-by attack on the sources when obviously you didn't even check into what was actually posted? Taking up for welfare parasites now?

JackHandey

11-11-2010, 07:05 PM

http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/jasper.asp

That snopes article sucks... It is unclear on which elements are true, and which are false... It just indicates that some are false and some are true. It does validate some of the quotes that I used and the picture of her with the big screen TV were accurate, though.

coulditbeSatan

11-11-2010, 07:20 PM

That snopes article sucks... It is unclear on which elements are true, and which are false... It just indicates that some are false and some are true. It does validate some of the quotes that I used and the picture of her with the big screen TV were accurate, though.The quotes from a suspect post that Snopes targets were about the wine celler....pretty damn funny even still. :lol:

"Look at all these bottles of wine, they are worthless. Just another example of thinking I am stupid. All this wine is at least 10 years old and some of it is 20 years old, you know the white man kept all the fresh stuff for himself. I ain't that stupid."

bonkman

11-12-2010, 04:30 AM

By posting just the link to Snopes are you hoping to suggest that this is all a hoax wrt Sharon Jasper? Sure looks like it. Had you bothered to read the Snopes page like I did before I posted any reference to Jasper you would have discovered that much of what is 'out there' about Jasper is true. The parts I selected and posted are from the 'true' batch such as her picture in her apartment with here bigass screen HDTV. Snopes doesn't even bring up any contention with her own words I quoted.

The words of Jasper's that Jack quoted are not in contention either....so what are you trying to do other than do a drive-by attack on the sources when obviously you didn't even check into what was actually posted? Taking up for welfare parasites now?

That snopes article sucks... It is unclear on which elements are true, and which are false... It just indicates that some are false and some are true. It does validate some of the quotes that I used and the picture of her with the big screen TV were accurate, though.

If you read the snopes article, you'd know that some of what JH posted is true....and many of the quotes she said are her actual words...but they're not even from the same conversations. In other words, the blurb JH posted about her is bogus. It's a satire piece.

TruthinWhole

11-12-2010, 05:49 AM

I just read this whole thread and am laughing my ass off that there are people who still actually believe that black pathologies in this country are a result of slavery or jim crow.

smegalicious

11-12-2010, 06:47 AM

If you live in a bad neighborhood, where people vandalize and/or steal your stuff, the smart thing to do is move. Sure, you can try to clean up the neighborhood... But, you should not expect anyone else to subsidize your uphill battle, either. Being noble is fine and dandy, but it is a luxury most people can not afford.
So then one should not expect assistance from the police when attempting to "clean up the neighborhood". After all, that would be an example of taxpayers subsidizing an uphill battle to be able to live in a crime-free environment.

Moving is not the only part of the solution, it is simply the first step. It places blacks in a position where they can have a more positive attitude, and also have a better shot at educating themselves and finding meaningful employment.
Perhaps combating racism gives certain people a "positive attitude", despite your implication that you know what they need/want better than they do.

Is your resistance some sort of veiled "not in my backyard", because you are happy that black people are in the oppressive south, and not in your neighborhood?
Is your question some sort of thinly veiled insult against those who don't agree w/your personal opinions?

:rolleyes:

Which is why I find it interesting that he opposes the idea of blacks moving away from the oppressors. I guess keeping them out of his neighborhood is more important than having them in an environment where they can actually improve their lives.
I guess making strawman arguments wrt an opponent's claim is more important that fostering an environment where logical debate can actually occur.

IIRC, shaggy lives in NYC, where over a quarter of the population is black (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_City#Racial_and_Ethnic_composition). Yep, that's got to be a clear-cut case of NIMBY if I ever saw one... :rofl2:

coulditbeSatan

11-12-2010, 12:47 PM

If you read the snopes article, you'd know that some of what JH posted is true....and many of the quotes she said are her actual words...but they're not even from the same conversations. In other words, the blurb JH posted about her is bogus. It's a satire piece.That's just your opinion and that is what is bogus. Snopes did not state the part Jack quoted as part of the satire. The part about a wine celler in Sharon Jasper's Section 8 apartment and the 10 year old wine (because whitey kept the new stuff for himself) was satire. Snopes is clear there are truths mixed with the satire. Unless you can prove otherwise you are not in the position to declare what is true and what is not wrt Sharon Jasper.

JackHandey

11-12-2010, 02:32 PM

That's just your opinion and that is what is bogus. Snopes did not state the part Jack quoted as part of the satire. The part about a wine celler in Sharon Jasper's Section 8 apartment and the 10 year old wine (because whitey kept the new stuff for himself) was satire. Snopes is clear there are truths mixed with the satire. Unless you can prove otherwise you are not in the position to declare what is true and what is not wrt Sharon Jasper.

Hell, I'm impressed that bonk actually provided a link for a change, even if it was a crap one. It beats the normal appeals to authority that we normally get.

MadisonAlexa

11-13-2010, 10:26 PM

The poor white boys did better than the poor black boys. Probably safe to say the poor Asian boys would have done better than all groups and poor Hispanic boys would have been close to or about equal in outcome to the poor white boys. How long before society is finally ready to admit that blacks are not as intelligent overall? Sure it's not PC like a lot of other facts but that way perhaps special programs for blacks could be instituted instead of making everyone else suffer by lowering standards to dumb everyone down equally.

:vomit:

First of all, their definition of poor was extremely broad and inaccurate.

Secondly, as a society we tend to do a farking fantastic job at confusing culture with race. A great example of this is the standard "ethnic breakdown" we use when comparing statistics. A second generation American of Spanish (Spain spanish) lineage is almost always classified the same way as a first generation American born to ilegal immigrants from Guatemala. A first generation American born to Ethiopian parents is classified the same way as a person who descended directly from American slaves, who's grandmother wasn't allowed to eat in restaurants, who hasn't had a father figure present in two generations. It's a really counterproductive exercise in my opinion - as culture has everything to do with pre-disposition; while race is a zero factor.

To close, you are an idiot. To break down a group of people into black/white/asian a decade into the 21st century is so shortsighted it's unbelievable. We are in a global, fluid, rapidly changing world. Skin color means about the same as eye color, and culture means everything.

*Side note, why hasn't anyone brought up the way public schools are funded? Pulling directly from local, residential, property tax is inefficient and completely unfair. It's inefficient because of the variance of home values (in relation to inflation). It's unfair because the wealthier counties have more money for their school. If we want schools to be equal, we should simply fund them equally. I'm not saying "WE SHOULD BE SOCIALISTS AND JSUT SPEND MORE IMAGINARY MONEY THAT IS GOING TO GET US INTO DEBT MORE TO CHINA SO WE CAN BECOME REAL COMMIES BECAUSE I HATE AMERICA" - I'm just saying "why don't all schools have the same amount of money? I'm not saying it needs to be more money, just the same".

I recant my statement that you are a troll; you're nothing but a common, disgusting racist. You sicken me.

Not as intelligent? I cannot believe I just read that racist comment and before you comment on how I pulled the race card let me provide the definition of a racist:

A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

This is basically what you are projecting. I didn't think I'd see that type of bullshit on this message board.

:(

Is it now officially okay to be openly (no more subtlety) racist on TP?

TruthinWhole

11-13-2010, 11:02 PM

:vomit:

I recant my statement that you are a troll; you're nothing but a common, disgusting racist. You sicken me.

:(

Is it now officially okay to be openly (no more subtlety) racist on TP?

Of course like a good liberal, you didn't post anything to refute his statement, or provide a single shred of evidence. You just threw insults.

Yup, common, indeed.

MadisonAlexa

11-14-2010, 12:52 AM

Of course like a good liberal, you didn't post anything to refute his statement, or provide a single shred of evidence. You just threw insults.

Yup, common, indeed.

His/Her/Shim statement was racist. Do you deny that?

Phreaker47

11-14-2010, 12:57 AM

Of course like a good liberal, you didn't post anything to refute his statement, or provide a single shred of evidence. You just threw insults.

Yup, common, indeed.

Oh, okay, because it's still 1954 and this is all considered a legitimate discussion still? No, actually a good liberal, or rather, a sensible human being in general does not have to legitimize such statements in any way by entertaining the conversation. Not this time, for sure.

I mean, hey, can I come on here and say something like, oh, I think adults and children can have sexual relationships and the government should stay out of their way? Don't you dare come in here and just hurl an insult at me. Engage in sensible discussion! Live up to the standards you are claiming to have.

DarthSaver

11-14-2010, 03:47 AM

Oh, okay, because it's still 1954 and this is all considered a legitimate discussion still? No, actually a good liberal, or rather, a sensible human being in general does not have to legitimize such statements in any way by entertaining the conversation. Not this time, for sure.

I mean, hey, can I come on here and say something like, oh, I think adults and children can have sexual relationships and the government should stay out of their way? Don't you dare come in here and just hurl an insult at me. Engage in sensible discussion! Live up to the standards you are claiming to have.

Do you have a problem with free speech? :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Man/Boy_Love_Association

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20000831/aponline171914_000.htm

discoverEdeals

11-14-2010, 05:25 AM

:
I recant my statement that you are a troll; you're nothing but a common, disgusting racist. You sicken me.

Uhhhh, I don't understand how I was being a racist. Did you read any of my posts in this thread at all? Can you point out to me how I'm a disgusting racist?

sumthn

11-14-2010, 05:25 AM

DJPlayer

11-14-2010, 07:07 AM

This thread started off nice and then it became a racist discussion. I really do believe that any race or culture has the ability to learn. There was a point in time in Europe and the United States where it was thought that White people who were not "elite" were unintelligent and thus were demeaned. I really think it's the same situation with African Americans. If the playing field was leveled out you would see more excelling at a rapid rate. It's hard to really judge any race of people unless you can even out the field. If you notice the races that seem to be the most advanced are the ones who had the least foreign influence on their people.

I haven't taken part in this thread so I can only comment on the actual topic. I have actually read several studies that link brain size to intelligent. The intelligence best judged by brain size a child a couple years old (specifically gray matter size in brain). This holds true for almost all species, size of brain to body ratio. Explaining why elephants are no smarter than rats. Which also explains why the human brain has grown in size through evolution. The general brain size is outlined below from a Psychology book. IQ was highest in orientals, followed by whites, followed by blacks. The difference in IQ (at least up to age 4 or so) was best predicted by brain size, then sociological factors start to take grow in importance. It would be pretty easy to argue that one's capacity is best capped by certain physical brain characteristics (of course there are other influences genetic etc..)

http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/upload/2010/01/average_brain_size_for_the_thr/Rushton_Brain_Size_by_Race.jpg

larrymoencurly

11-14-2010, 07:25 AM

What do you think of black people?

JackHandey

11-14-2010, 07:35 AM

If you notice the races that seem to be the most advanced are the ones who had the least foreign influence on their people.

That leads to a chicken v. egg argument, though. Arguably, the reason they had that sort of development was due to pressure from extended conflicts/wars and the need for them to cooperate to greater levels. I believe the ability to exchange ideas, record history and the requirement for large scale cooperation were the biggest factors for European and Asian development.

Unification and empire building had their rewards in the long term for the collected people that experienced them. Africa never had the pressure to unify to that degree, and as a result remained too fractured to advance rapidly.

larrymoencurly

11-14-2010, 07:36 AM

Gavica

11-14-2010, 07:37 AM

What do you think of black people?

Well it's funny how the teabaggers here always complain when the liberals "use" the race card.
But as you can see on this thread, they think of black people as an inferior race.
I don't know what is the difference between some of the posts here and what Germans thought about Jews over 70 years ago.

larrymoencurly

11-14-2010, 08:17 AM

larrymoencurly

11-14-2010, 08:26 AM

If you notice the races that seem to be the most advanced are the ones who had the least foreign influence on their people.A reason for that could be that the most advanced societies were those that were best able to resist foreign invasion or had the least to gain from adopting foreign practices. OTOH your conclusion doesn't explain the group considered by the racists to be the smartest, the Jews, who, because of their minority status in most societies, were highly influenced by outsiders.

TruthinWhole

11-14-2010, 08:28 AM

His/Her/Shim statement was racist. Do you deny that?

Racialist yes, racist no. Not in the way people mean.

Oh, okay, because it's still 1954 and this is all considered a legitimate discussion still? No, actually a good liberal, or rather, a sensible human being in general does not have to legitimize such statements in any way by entertaining the conversation. Not this time, for sure.

I mean, hey, can I come on here and say something like, oh, I think adults and children can have sexual relationships and the government should stay out of their way? Don't you dare come in here and just hurl an insult at me. Engage in sensible discussion! Live up to the standards you are claiming to have.

Oh excuse me, I didn't realize liberals got to decide what was a legitimate discussion.

You know, in my experience, when people just attack people making an argument instead of providing evidence, it usually means that their claim is bogus.

Kind of like global warming.

TruthinWhole

11-14-2010, 08:31 AM

Foreveryours

11-14-2010, 08:33 AM

His/Her/Shim statement was racist. Do you deny that?
If you're referring to discoverEdeals, I'm afraid you mis-read his post.

TruthinWhole

11-14-2010, 08:35 AM

If you're referring to discoverEdeals, I'm afraid you mis-read his post.

Racism is a moral judgment. A factual statement cannot be racist.

larrymoencurly

11-14-2010, 08:38 AM

Tea baggers have a higher rate of racism than average, but they're hardly the KKK (even though my ex-KKK uncles are supporters of the movement).
And Democraps have a higher than average rate of people who like to take it in the butt. See? I can make stupid insulting comments too.
Not the ones you want.

JackHandey

11-14-2010, 08:38 AM

Why did the southern power establishment try to stop the distribution of the Chicago Defender newspaper by Pullman porters?

This might have had something to do with it:

During World War I The Chicago Defender waged its most aggressive (and successful) campaign in support of "The Great Migration" movement. This movement resulted in over one and a half million southern blacks migrating to the North between 1915-1925. The Defender spoke of the hazards of remaining in the overtly segregated south and lauded life in the North. Job listings and train schedules were posted to facilitate the relocation. The Defender also used editorials, cartoons, and articles with blazing headlines to attract attention to the movement, and even went so far as to declare May 15, 1917 the date of the "Great Northern Drive." The Defender's support of the movement, caused southern readers to migrate to the North in record numbers. At least 110,000 came to Chicago alone between 1916-1918, nearly tripling the city's black population.

In subsequent years The Defender provided first hand coverage of events such as the Red Summer Riots of 1919, a series of race riots in cities across the country. It campaigned for anti-lynching legislation, and for integrated sports.

http://www.pbs.org/blackpress/news_bios/defender.html

It is always easier to control people, when you can suppress contrary views. The left uses the same concept via the PC movement today. Instead of direct suppression, the PC movement accomplishes the same thing via social pressure (polarization/marginalization/demonization).

Accusations of racism/bigotry are used to shame and suppress people contrary views today, much as racial epitaphs were used back then to suppress and shame people of certain ethnic backgrounds.

Questioning and pursuing the reasons behind the differences between people of different ethnic backgrounds, as well as conclusions reached in those pursuits, is not inherently racist. They could be used to promote racist policies, I suppose (but that is a different issue and problem).

When science and research are criticized, simply based on the area of study, or the conclusion(s) they reach, rather than based on actual flaws in methodology on contrary evidence, it is no better than suppressing science in the name of religion, and based on the same way of thinking (with the same flaws in reasoning).

larrymoencurly

11-14-2010, 08:50 AM

It seems to me that the intelligent thing to do would be to move to an area where one is more accepted and will have greater opportunity. If blacks stay there just to be a thorn in the side of racists, they have no one to blame for the hostility they face but themselves.
Why did the southern power establishment try to stop the distribution of the Chicago Defender newspaper by Pullman porters?

This might have had something to do with it:

During World War I The Chicago Defender waged its most aggressive (and successful) campaign in support of "The Great Migration" movement. This movement resulted in over one and a half million southern blacks migrating to the North between 1915-1925. The Defender spoke of the hazards of remaining in the overtly segregated south and lauded life in the North. Job listings and train schedules were posted to facilitate the relocation. The Defender also used editorials, cartoons, and articles with blazing headlines to attract attention to the movement, and even went so far as to declare May 15, 1917 the date of the "Great Northern Drive." The Defender's support of the movement, caused southern readers to migrate to the North in record numbers. At least 110,000 came to Chicago alone between 1916-1918, nearly tripling the city's black population.

It is always easier to control people, when you can suppress contrary views. The left uses the same concept via the PC movement today. Instead of direct suppression, the PC movement accomplishes the same thing via social pressure (polarization/marginalization/demonization).

So the Chicago Defender brainwashed blacks into leaving the sweet South, and when political leaders tried to stop the distribution of the newspaper there, they weren'tsupressing contrary views but merely trying to save blacks from the lies of evil Yankees?

sumthn

11-14-2010, 09:23 AM

I haven't taken part in this thread so I can only comment on the actual topic. I have actually read several studies that link brain size to intelligent. The intelligence best judged by brain size a child a couple years old (specifically gray matter size in brain). This holds true for almost all species, size of brain to body ratio. Explaining why elephants are no smarter than rats. Which also explains why the human brain has grown in size through evolution. The general brain size is outlined below from a Psychology book. IQ was highest in orientals, followed by whites, followed by blacks. The difference in IQ (at least up to age 4 or so) was best predicted by brain size, then sociological factors start to take grow in importance. It would be pretty easy to argue that one's capacity is best capped by certain physical brain characteristics (of course there are other influences genetic etc..)

http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/upload/2010/01/average_brain_size_for_the_thr/Rushton_Brain_Size_by_Race.jpg

Can you please site the source that you got this information from.

JackHandey

11-14-2010, 09:28 AM

So the Chicago Defender brainwashed blacks into leaving the sweet South, and when political leaders tried to stop the distribution of the newspaper there, they weren'tsupressing contrary views but merely trying to save blacks from the lies of evil Yankees?

That is the exact opposite of what I said. Just because I criticize the left today of the same tactics to suppress scrutiny of people of certain ethnic backgrounds does not negate that racist groups employed the same tactics in the past.

It just means that I find the left hypocritical and contrary to liberalism for doing so today.

TruthinWhole

11-14-2010, 09:30 AM

This might have had something to do with it:

It is always easier to control people, when you can suppress contrary views. The left uses the same concept via the PC movement today. Instead of direct suppression, the PC movement accomplishes the same thing via social pressure (polarization/marginalization/demonization).

Accusations of racism/bigotry are used to shame and suppress people contrary views today, much as racial epitaphs were used back then to suppress and shame people of certain ethnic backgrounds.

Questioning and pursuing the reasons behind the differences between people of different ethnic backgrounds, as well as conclusions reached in those pursuits, is not inherently racist. They could be used to promote racist policies, I suppose (but that is a different issue and problem).

When science and research are criticized, simply based on the area of study, or the conclusion(s) they reach, rather than based on actual flaws in methodology on contrary evidence, it is no better than suppressing science in the name of religion, and based on the same way of thinking (with the same flaws in reasoning).

Precisely. It's the same with the global warming debate, discussions about the legitimacy of homosexual marriage, and criticisms of Islam.

Elmer

11-14-2010, 09:33 AM

larrymoencurly

11-14-2010, 09:37 AM

Tea baggers have a higher rate of racism than average, but they're hardly the KKK (even though my ex-KKK uncles are supporters of the movement). Strange. Most ex KKK members threw their support in for the DNC.......

Probably, as would be expected of most people who truly renounced bigotry, but, as I've mentioned, those uncles of mine didn't and are former KKK only because of marriage.

Elmer

11-14-2010, 10:20 AM

Probably, as would be expected of most people who truly renounced bigotry, but, as I've mentioned, those uncles of mine didn't and are former KKK only because of marriage.
Did I mention my two Uncles that were leaders in the Communist Party? They're both big Obama supporters.......

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Just as with your beloved Senator Byrd, who achieved leadership roles in the DNC, while, and after fighting the civil rights act, the reason that so many KKK members stayed Democrats, was they could keep their racist beliefs, and never be challenged on them, as long as they mostly voted the party line.

"I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side ... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds.”
— Robert C. Byrd

While the Democrat slobbering sycophants point the racist finger at any conservative that challenges them, (just like in this thread), your ole buddy was on national TV, repeatedly using the N word in 2001, many years after his claimed "transformation" from KKK leader, to believer in equality......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FIBJt-c2o0

So, because the tea party is bringing light to the debate over spending and taxation, the shrill cries of "racism" go up from the party faithfuls, terrified that the gravy train to oblivion, might get derailed.

DJPlayer

11-14-2010, 10:30 AM

Can you please site the source that you got this information from.

it's a book..

RACE, EVOLUTION, AND BEHAVIOR:
A Life History Perspective
2nd Special Abridged Edition
Professor J. Philippe Rushton

quick link to a portion of it.

http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org/Race_Evolution_Behavior.pdf
(you'd have to look around for the full 388 page version).

http://www.amazon.com/Race-Evolution-Behavior-History-Perspective/dp/0965683613

TruthinWhole

11-14-2010, 10:34 AM

larrymoencurly

11-14-2010, 10:36 AM

It seems to me that the intelligent thing to do would be to move to an area where one is more accepted and will have greater opportunity. If blacks stay there just to be a thorn in the side of racists, they have no one to blame for the hostility they face but themselves.
Why did the southern power establishment try to stop the distribution of the Chicago Defender newspaper by Pullman porters?
This might have had something to do with it:

During World War I The Chicago Defender waged its most aggressive (and successful) campaign in support of "The Great Migration" movement. This movement resulted in over one and a half million southern blacks migrating to the North between 1915-1925. The Defender spoke of the hazards of remaining in the overtly segregated south and lauded life in the North. Job listings and train schedules were posted to facilitate the relocation. The Defender also used editorials, cartoons, and articles with blazing headlines to attract attention to the movement, and even went so far as to declare May 15, 1917 the date of the "Great Northern Drive." The Defender's support of the movement, caused southern readers to migrate to the North in record numbers. At least 110,000 came to Chicago alone between 1916-1918, nearly tripling the city's black population.
It is always easier to control people, when you can suppress contrary views. The left uses the same concept via the PC movement today. Instead of direct suppression, the PC movement accomplishes the same thing via social pressure (polarization/marginalization/demonization).
So the Chicago Defender brainwashed blacks into leaving the sweet South, and when political leaders tried to stop the distribution of the newspaper there, they weren't supressing contrary views but merely trying to save blacks from the lies of evil Yankees?
That is the exact opposite of what I said. Just because I criticize the left today of the same tactics to suppress scrutiny of people of certain ethnic backgrounds does not negate that racist groups employed the same tactics in the past.

It just means that I find the left hypocritical and contrary to liberalism for doing so today.
But what you wrote, just after the summary of the Chicago Defender, indicated the paper was controlling people and supressing contrary views.

It's also strange of you to mention people staying where they're hated, just to bother bigots. I seriously doubt many people do that, and they stay mostly because of habit or lack of money to move.

larrymoencurly

11-14-2010, 10:47 AM

Just as with your beloved Senator Byrd, who achieved leadership roles in the DNC, while, and after fighting the civil rights act, the reason that so many KKK members stayed Democrats, was they could keep their racist beliefs, and never be challenged on them, as long as they mostly voted the party line.

"I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side ... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds.”
— Robert C. Byrd

While the Democrat slobbering sycophants point the racist finger at any conservative that challenges them, (just like in this thread), your ole buddy was on national TV, repeatedly using the N word in 2001, many years after his claimed "transformation" from KKK leader, to believer in equality......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FIBJt-c2o0

So, because the tea party is bringing light to the debate over spending and taxation, the shrill cries of "racism" go up from the party faithfuls, terrified that the gravy train to oblivion, might get derailed.
The video doesn't make your point, and unlike my uncles, Byrd became truly ex-KKK, emphasis on "ex" and, as I've said, hated by the KKK and considered a traitor to the white race. Yet you continue to portray Byrd as a racist to the end, even after he enthusiastically told people to elect a black man to the presidency. That's dishonest of you, Elmer.

sumthn

11-14-2010, 11:32 AM

it's a book..

RACE, EVOLUTION, AND BEHAVIOR:
A Life History Perspective
2nd Special Abridged Edition
Professor J. Philippe Rushton

quick link to a portion of it.

http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org/Race_Evolution_Behavior.pdf
(you'd have to look around for the full 388 page version).

http://www.amazon.com/Race-Evolution-Behavior-History-Perspective/dp/0965683613

Michael Levin and Charles Murray have also written extensively on the topic. Sometimes the truth hurts.

Douglas Wahlsten, a biologist, criticized Rushton's book in a review writing:

"averaging does nothing to reduce bias in sampling and measurement, and such flaws are abundant in the cited literature. For example, among the 38 reports on brain weight, all but two gave figures for only one group, with most cases being people living in the nation of their ancestors, such as an article on Japanese living in Japan and another on Kenyans living in Kenya. The obvious differences in environment make all of these data of dubious worth for testing hypotheses about genetic causes of group differences."

"The author is an earnest believer in genetically determined race differences, and he vows to cling tenaciously to his world view unless his opponents can provide conclusive proof to the contrary. In my opinion, this is the kind of approach to be expected from religious zealots and politicians, not professional scientists. A rigorous evaluation of the evidence cited by Rushton reveals the methods in most studies were seriously flawed and render the data inconclusive. If the evidence is so poor, the proper action for a scientist is to suspend judgment. In reality, there is not one properly controlled study of brain size comparing representative samples of races in the entire world literature."

"David P. Barash, a University of Washington psychology professor, also harshly criticises the 'principle of aggregation' in his review:

...Rushton argues at length for what he calls the 'principle of aggregation', which in his hands, means the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit"

"In a review of Rushton's book, anthropologist C. Loring Brace wrote:

Race, Evolution, and Behavior is an amalgamation of bad biology and inexcusable anthropology. It is not science but advocacy, and advocacy of 'racialism'"

"Other critics have also charged that his interpretations, conclusions and methods are "sloppy" and "unscientific". For example, Rushton's diagram of cranial capacities is in error, as Neanderthal in fact had a greater cranial capacity than modern humans. Genetic studies also show that there is greater genetic diversity within African populations (for example between Khoisanid Capoid, Mbuti pygmy, Sudanese Nuba, West African Negro and Ethiopian Cushitic populations, than there is amongst any two groups outside Africa rendering aggregation methods applied here nul and void"

"In a review of Rushton's book, Richard Lewontin wrote:

The first problem for his theory is that there need to be major races. That is, the differences between "Oriental," "Black," and "White" need to be more than skin deep. In claiming that these old racial categories correspond to large biological differences, Rushton moves in the opposite direction from the entire development of physical anthropology and human genetics for the last thirty years. Anthropologists no longer regard "race" as a useful concept in understanding human evolution and variation"

"Psychologist Zack Cernovsky offers criticism of Rushton's application of r/K dimensions:

The r/K dimension is derived from an extremely wide range of species. Its dogmatic application to the drastically reduced variance within contemporary Homo sapiens is statistically naive (for more detailed explanations, see Cernovsky, at 1992). It is not even necessary to be a competent statistician to avoid similar errors. If Rushton (1988, 1990a) could heed Jerison's (1973) warning that racial differences in brain size are at most minor and "probably of no significance for intellectual differences," he would not attempt to extend Jerison' s findings across species to subgroups within modern mankind. Instead, Rushton (1991) misleadingly refers to Jerison in a manner that implies an expert support from this famous comparative neuropsychologist, without mentioning their disagreement on the most central issue."

"Humanities educator Dr. Barry Mehler, wrote critically of Rushton's book, stating:

"Rushton's theories are a bizarre mélange of nineteenth century anthro-pometrism and twentieth century eugenics. Although there is no evidence showing different cranial sizes between races, Rushton has cited the genetic distance studies of Allen Wilson of the University of California to claim that Africans have smaller brains and are more primitive than whites and orientals, who evolved to cope with the more demanding northern climes. Wilson commented: 'He is misrepresenting our findings'. These 'show that Asians are as closely related to modern Africans as Europeans are'. When asked if he was aware of any anthropological evidence at all that might support Rushton's claim, he replied, 'I'm not aware of any such evidence. The claim shocks and dismays me'"

Cross-cultural evaluation of predicted associations between race and behavior in Evolution and Human Behavior. 24(5), Sep 2003, 357-364. Peregrine, Peter N.; Ember, Carol R.; Ember, Melvin: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S1090-5138(03)00040-0

On the similarities of American blacks and whites: A reply to J.P. Rushton. Vol. 25, Journal of Black Studies, 07-01-1995, pp 672.

Institute for the Study of Academic Racism Archives

sumthn

11-14-2010, 11:35 AM

I haven't taken part in this thread so I can only comment on the actual topic. I have actually read several studies that link brain size to intelligent. The intelligence best judged by brain size a child a couple years old (specifically gray matter size in brain). This holds true for almost all species, size of brain to body ratio. Explaining why elephants are no smarter than rats. Which also explains why the human brain has grown in size through evolution. The general brain size is outlined below from a Psychology book. IQ was highest in orientals, followed by whites, followed by blacks. The difference in IQ (at least up to age 4 or so) was best predicted by brain size, then sociological factors start to take grow in importance. It would be pretty easy to argue that one's capacity is best capped by certain physical brain characteristics (of course there are other influences genetic etc..)

I don't see what your point is though.

Note to self: Transfer from Penn State...

JackHandey

11-14-2010, 11:44 AM

Yet you continue to portray Byrd as a racist to the end, even after he enthusiastically told people to elect a black man to the presidenc.

That is dependent on what you think his motivation was for it (http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2008/06/11/president-obama-many-white-supremacists-are-celebrating/).

Krazen1211

11-14-2010, 12:18 PM

I just read this whole thread and am laughing my ass off that there are people who still actually believe that black pathologies in this country are a result of slavery or jim crow.

Yep. Affirmative action first passed through the Supreme Court in 1978 I believe. It was supposed to be temporary.

25 years later in 2003, they said it was to be 'temporary', again.

We're entering the 3rd generation since the Civil Rights Act. It's all just sad excuses, and more importantly, an enormous waste of taxpayer money to educate people who don't want to be educated.

Krazen1211

11-14-2010, 12:25 PM

Well it's funny how the teabaggers here always complain when the liberals "use" the race card.
But as you can see on this thread, they think of black people as an inferior race.
I don't know what is the difference between some of the posts here and what Germans thought about Jews over 70 years ago.

I don't recall the Germans giving the jews such favorable government policy.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/promoting-excellence-innovation-and-sustainability-historically-black-colleges-and-

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, in order to advance the development of the Nation's full human potential and to advance equal opportunity in higher education, strengthen the capacity of historically black colleges and universities to provide the highest quality education, increase opportunities for these institutions to participate in and benefit from Federal programs, and ensure that our Nation has the highest proportion of college graduates in the world by the year 2020, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Heck, we even create Congressional districts so yahoos like Jesse Jackson can sit back, spew venom, and get re-elected every 2 years.

TruthinWhole

11-14-2010, 12:25 PM

Douglas Wahlsten, a biologist, criticized Rushton's book in a review writing:

"averaging does nothing to reduce bias in sampling and measurement, and such flaws are abundant in the cited literature. For example, among the 38 reports on brain weight, all but two gave figures for only one group, with most cases being people living in the nation of their ancestors, such as an article on Japanese living in Japan and another on Kenyans living in Kenya. The obvious differences in environment make all of these data of dubious worth for testing hypotheses about genetic causes of group differences."

"The author is an earnest believer in genetically determined race differences, and he vows to cling tenaciously to his world view unless his opponents can provide conclusive proof to the contrary. In my opinion, this is the kind of approach to be expected from religious zealots and politicians, not professional scientists. A rigorous evaluation of the evidence cited by Rushton reveals the methods in most studies were seriously flawed and render the data inconclusive. If the evidence is so poor, the proper action for a scientist is to suspend judgment. In reality, there is not one properly controlled study of brain size comparing representative samples of races in the entire world literature."

"David P. Barash, a University of Washington psychology professor, also harshly criticises the 'principle of aggregation' in his review:

...Rushton argues at length for what he calls the 'principle of aggregation', which in his hands, means the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit"

"In a review of Rushton's book, anthropologist C. Loring Brace wrote:

Race, Evolution, and Behavior is an amalgamation of bad biology and inexcusable anthropology. It is not science but advocacy, and advocacy of 'racialism'"

"Other critics have also charged that his interpretations, conclusions and methods are "sloppy" and "unscientific". For example, Rushton's diagram of cranial capacities is in error, as Neanderthal in fact had a greater cranial capacity than modern humans. Genetic studies also show that there is greater genetic diversity within African populations (for example between Khoisanid Capoid, Mbuti pygmy, Sudanese Nuba, West African Negro and Ethiopian Cushitic populations, than there is amongst any two groups outside Africa rendering aggregation methods applied here nul and void"

"In a review of Rushton's book, Richard Lewontin wrote:

The first problem for his theory is that there need to be major races. That is, the differences between "Oriental," "Black," and "White" need to be more than skin deep. In claiming that these old racial categories correspond to large biological differences, Rushton moves in the opposite direction from the entire development of physical anthropology and human genetics for the last thirty years. Anthropologists no longer regard "race" as a useful concept in understanding human evolution and variation"

"Psychologist Zack Cernovsky offers criticism of Rushton's application of r/K dimensions:

The r/K dimension is derived from an extremely wide range of species. Its dogmatic application to the drastically reduced variance within contemporary Homo sapiens is statistically naive (for more detailed explanations, see Cernovsky, at 1992). It is not even necessary to be a competent statistician to avoid similar errors. If Rushton (1988, 1990a) could heed Jerison's (1973) warning that racial differences in brain size are at most minor and "probably of no significance for intellectual differences," he would not attempt to extend Jerison' s findings across species to subgroups within modern mankind. Instead, Rushton (1991) misleadingly refers to Jerison in a manner that implies an expert support from this famous comparative neuropsychologist, without mentioning their disagreement on the most central issue."

"Humanities educator Dr. Barry Mehler, wrote critically of Rushton's book, stating:

"Rushton's theories are a bizarre mélange of nineteenth century anthro-pometrism and twentieth century eugenics. Although there is no evidence showing different cranial sizes between races, Rushton has cited the genetic distance studies of Allen Wilson of the University of California to claim that Africans have smaller brains and are more primitive than whites and orientals, who evolved to cope with the more demanding northern climes. Wilson commented: 'He is misrepresenting our findings'. These 'show that Asians are as closely related to modern Africans as Europeans are'. When asked if he was aware of any anthropological evidence at all that might support Rushton's claim, he replied, 'I'm not aware of any such evidence. The claim shocks and dismays me'"

Cross-cultural evaluation of predicted associations between race and behavior in Evolution and Human Behavior. 24(5), Sep 2003, 357-364. Peregrine, Peter N.; Ember, Carol R.; Ember, Melvin: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S1090-5138(03)00040-0

On the similarities of American blacks and whites: A reply to J.P. Rushton. Vol. 25, Journal of Black Studies, 07-01-1995, pp 672.

Institute for the Study of Academic Racism Archives

See? Was that so hard? There is a legitimate scientific debate about this. The free exchange of ideas involves doing what you just did. Not shouting down opponents as "racists" and saying that certain topics aren't "legitimate topics of discussion."

Yep. Affirmative action first passed through the Supreme Court in 1978 I believe. It was supposed to be temporary.

25 years later in 2003, they said it was to be 'temporary', again.

We're entering the 3rd generation since the Civil Rights Act. It's all just sad excuses, and more importantly, an enormous waste of taxpayer money to educate people who don't want to be educated.

Correct. If racially discriminatory laws explain black social pathologies, no one's been able to explain why the horribly mistreated Chinese in the early 20th century have been able to do so well in America, both in terms of income, education, and crime rate.

sumthn

11-14-2010, 12:52 PM

I don't recall the Germans giving the jews such favorable government policy.

Correct. If racially discriminatory laws explain black social pathologies, no one's been able to explain why the horribly mistreated Chinese in the early 20th century have been able to do so well in America, both in terms of income, education, and crime rate.

But Jewish people and Chinese people were not enslaved for 300 years so they kind of had less time to recover from don't you think?

DJPlayer

11-14-2010, 01:27 PM

Michael Levin and Charles Murray have also written extensively on the topic. Sometimes the truth hurts.

there have been thousands to write on this topic and it is somewhat argued because of the PC nature of it. But at the same time nobody seems to argue that african americans seem to be better athletes in general than whites (at least in some categories). African Americans in general also have a higher proportion of fast twitch muscles vs. long muscles. Also product a somewhat larger amount of testosterone than other races. We have to accept that different races have different attributes. Obviously a white person's hair is going to be much different than an African-American's hair.. but apparently that fact is so obvious there's nothing wrong w/ stating it.

sumthn

11-14-2010, 02:00 PM

there have been thousands to write on this topic and it is somewhat argued because of the PC nature of it. But at the same time nobody seems to argue that african americans seem to be better athletes in general than whites (at least in some categories). African Americans in general also have a higher proportion of fast twitch muscles vs. long muscles. Also product a somewhat larger amount of testosterone than other races. We have to accept that different races have different attributes. Obviously a white person's hair is going to be much different than an African-American's hair.. but apparently that fact is so obvious there's nothing wrong w/ stating it.

The issue isn't whether one race tends to be more successful at something than another. I wouldn't argue the fact that Whites typically do better than blacks academically however I don't at all believe that it is because Whites are naturally more intelligent. That would be the same as saying Whites just naturally will never be as good of an athlete as a Black and thus should never try. It was a time when many believed that Whites had no rhythm and could never dance and as we can see there are many Whites who can do all different types of dances that originated from African American culture and other cultures. I think the difference is that Whites don't put labels on themselves as "not being able to do something" which is why they are able to assimilate themselves into all different cultures and "fields" that are not traditionally European. However, when minorities (not just Blacks) attempt to assimilate into something that doesn't fit along their label or "stereotype" they are considered "unable" to do it. For centuries Whites have said that Blacks are not able to learn and yet through the centuries we have seen Blacks learn to read, go to school, graduate from college, become scientist and engineers and constantly push the barriers of limitation that Whites have put on them for centuries. Considering the fact that Whites once believed that Blacks had an inability to ever learn to read and today we see that is clearly not true, I do believe that Blacks as a whole have every ability as Whites to be academically successful however there are a lot of factors that are NOT biological at play.

Krazen1211

11-14-2010, 02:01 PM

But Jewish people and Chinese people were not enslaved for 300 years so they kind of had less time to recover from don't you think?

That was 6 generations ago. When does it end?

DarthSaver

11-14-2010, 02:08 PM

sumthn

11-14-2010, 02:15 PM

That was 6 generations ago. When does it end?

And just 60 years ago Blacks were denied an opportunity to go to college simply because of the color of their skin.

Krazen1211

11-14-2010, 02:16 PM

And just 60 years ago Blacks were denied an opportunity to go to college simply because of the color of their skin.

You didn't answer the question.

sumthn

11-14-2010, 02:17 PM

You didn't answer the question.

You didn't answer mine.

It'll end when there is more equality. Slavery set the race back many years and not just in the act of slavery but the belief system that was perpetuated by Whites during slavery. The belief system that continues today, the belief that blacks are not smart enough or able enough.

Krazen1211

11-14-2010, 02:24 PM

You didn't answer mine.

It'll end when their is more equality. Slavery set the race back many years and not just in the act of slavery but the belief system that was perpetuated by Whites during slavery. The belief system that continues today, the belief that blacks are not smart enough or able enough.

You'll have to forgive me for not seeing the relevance. Most jewish and chinese people I know are first generation types who have been in this country for less than 25 years. They manage to do better than your average white person.

The belief that blacks are not smart enough or able enough is perpetuated both by blacks and by the data, and their miserable proficiency.

sumthn

11-14-2010, 02:33 PM

You'll have to forgive me for not seeing the relevance. Most jewish and chinese people I know are first generation types who have been in this country for less than 25 years. They manage to do better than your average white person.

The belief that blacks are not smart enough or able enough is perpetuated both by blacks and by the data, and their miserable proficiency.

No, that is ok because I saw absolutely no relevance in your post as well. I don't know many blacks who go around calling themselves stupid but perhaps you have more experience with blacks than I do. If you read the post I made a little while back you will see that many scientist invalidate your so called "data". And the fact that they don't exceed academically is not purely due to race. As I said earlier, if it is truly due to race explain why Blacks have learned to read, and have become successful scholars despite the many critics who said that blacks could NEVER learn to read?

But even more importantly why do you wish to push this idea that Blacks are naturally unintelligent? What exactly does it add to your life either way?

Elmer

11-14-2010, 02:37 PM

The video doesn't make your point, and unlike my uncles, Byrd became truly ex-KKK, emphasis on "ex" and, as I've said, hated by the KKK and considered a traitor to the white race. Yet you continue to portray Byrd as a racist to the end, even after he enthusiastically told people to elect a black man to the presidency. That's dishonest of you, Elmer.

Somehow, you feel your opinion of Byrd, trumps his own words. It doesn't. Byrd tossed the 'N' word around like he used it every day.....which he probably did.... Byrd's fight against civil rights continued many, many, years after his supposed "resignation" from the KKK. And the DNC continued to elect him to leadership positions at the same time. What did Byrd care what the Klan of recent years, (or your moron Uncles) had to say about him, after they had become a powerless organization?

Lets not even get into what a homophobe he also was until the end.....

The defense of him comes for only one reason...the 'D' after his name, his political connections, and his voting mostly with the party line,........which made him one of the most powerful men in the country, despite the likelihood of his involvement with lynchings and killings, as a Klan leader, in the 40's and 50's south, when the KKK was still a real danger.

DarthSaver

11-14-2010, 02:51 PM

It'll end when there is more equality.

Did you not see my post about the Congressional Black Congress? I can go on and on about black only legitimized groups and causes. These groups are allowed to exist because of White guilt heaped on them for acts of their forefathers, many generations removed in most cases. When you get right down to it, it isn't equality that the radical black community wants, it's retribution. It is heartening to see many blacks speak out against so-called leaders like Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton who are race baiters. Many more need to take the next step and denounce these racially motivated groups, whos only purpose is to perpetuate the myth that blacks are oppressed and they need the Democrats and "black leaders" to overcome.

sumthn

11-14-2010, 02:57 PM

Did you not see my post about the Congressional Black Congress? I can go on and on about black only legitimized groups and causes. These groups are allowed to exist because of White guilt heaped on them for acts of their forefathers, many generations removed in most cases. When you get right down to it, it isn't equality that the radical black community wants, it's retribution. It is heartening to see many blacks speak out against so-called leaders like Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton who are race baiters. Many more need to take the next step and denounce these racially motivated groups, whos only purpose is to perpetuate the myth that blacks are oppressed and they need the Democrats and "black leaders" to overcome.

I don't see anything wrong with blacks coming together to find ways to improve their situation in this country. I don't understand why you're so threatened by it, it's not like they are plotting to kill thousands of White people like the KKK did. It's just a group of educated blacks finding a way to solve issues plaguing their community like this education problem with black males.

And I believe you are referring to the Congressional Black Caucus

DarthSaver

11-14-2010, 03:06 PM

I don't see anything wrong with blacks coming together to find ways to improve their situation in this country. I don't understand why you're so threatened by it, it's not like they are plotting to kill thousands of White people like the KKK did. It's just a group of educated blacks finding a way to solve issues plaguing their community like this education problem with black males.

So only blacks coming together can find ways to improve their situation? That's funny, I thought you have been touting equality. So you are really saying that separately they can achieve equality and the disclusion of whites and any other race in the discussion is merely a bi-product.

JackHandey

11-14-2010, 03:06 PM

And just 60 years ago Blacks were denied an opportunity to go to college simply because of the color of their skin.

And 70 years ago, Jews realistically faced extinction. Most of their numbers were exterminated and enslaved in concentration camps. Somehow Jews seem to have gotten off their asses to do something.

DarthSaver

11-14-2010, 03:07 PM

And I believe you are referring to the Congressional Black Caucus

yes..

sumthn

11-14-2010, 03:13 PM

So only blacks coming together can find ways to improve their situation? That's funny, I thought you have been touting equality. So you are really saying that separately they can achieve equality and the disclusion of whites and any other race in the discussion is merely a bi-product.

I never said anything about separately achieving equality. There are many established groups where blacks and whites work side by side like the NAACP, I just see nothing wrong with a group a black people coming together find solutions to problems that affect them. I don't see why that is such a problem for you.

Krazen1211

11-14-2010, 03:15 PM

No, that is ok because I saw absolutely no relevance in your post as well. I don't know many blacks who go around calling themselves stupid but perhaps you have more experience with blacks than I do. If you read the post I made a little while back you will see that many scientist invalidate your so called "data". And the fact that they don't exceed academically is not purely due to race. As I said earlier, if it is truly due to race explain why Blacks have learned to read, and have become successful scholars despite the many critics who said that blacks could NEVER learn to read?

But even more importantly why do you wish to push this idea that Blacks are naturally unintelligent? What exactly does it add to your life either way?

I have no idea whether blacks are naturally intelligent or unintelligent. Nor do I think it matters. So, no, I don't push that idea. What I do know is that their academic performance stinks year after year after year.

This nation spends massive amounts of excess financial resources that we do not have trying to get black kids to learn. Newark NJ spends over $20k per student per year. Obviously it doesn't work.

Why doesn't it work? I'll let someone else figure that part out, but get it to work before dumping the cash.

sumthn

11-14-2010, 03:16 PM

And 70 years ago, Jews realistically faced extinction. Most of their numbers were exterminated and enslaved in concentration camps. Somehow Jews seem to have gotten off their asses to do something.

I really don't want to get into this type of argument with you concerning the jewish because that is whole different can of worms that I don't want to open. But in all fairness the Jewish people did receive a great deal of help from U.S. powers perhaps not initially but eventually the U.S. came through and they came through strong. In fact didn't Germany pay some sort of restitution to those who had families affected by the holocaust?

Krazen1211

11-14-2010, 03:17 PM

Did you not see my post about the Congressional Black Congress? I can go on and on about black only legitimized groups and causes. These groups are allowed to exist because of White guilt heaped on them for acts of their forefathers, many generations removed in most cases. When you get right down to it, it isn't equality that the radical black community wants, it's retribution. It is heartening to see many blacks speak out against so-called leaders like Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton who are race baiters. Many more need to take the next step and denounce these racially motivated groups, whos only purpose is to perpetuate the myth that blacks are oppressed and they need the Democrats and "black leaders" to overcome.

The 40 or so members of the Congressional Black Caucus sit in 80% Democratic districts for the most part.

Actual black people have to work hard for a living. The CBC? Well, you got guys like Charlie Rangel who openly violate tax laws and get re-elected anyway.......

sumthn

11-14-2010, 03:21 PM

I have no idea whether blacks are naturally intelligent or unintelligent. Nor do I think it matters. So, no, I don't push that idea. What I do know is that their academic performance stinks year after year after year.

This nation spends massive amounts of excess financial resources that we do not have trying to get black kids to learn. Newark NJ spends over $20k per student per year. Obviously it doesn't work.

Why doesn't it work? I'll let someone else figure that part out, but get it to work before dumping the cash.

I don't know what the exact solution is. I also don't know how the money that's being "dumped" into the school districts is being allocated so perhaps it's not just giving money but following through with how the money is being spent. However, I do partially agree with you that constantly putting more money into the schools is not the solution.

DarthSaver

11-14-2010, 03:22 PM

I never said anything about separately achieving equality. There are many established groups where blacks and whites work side by side like the NAACP, I just see nothing wrong with a group a black people coming together find solutions to problems that affect them. I don't see why that is such a problem for you.

Yeah, it's just me that has the problem :cool:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20022218-503544.html

Scott told Politico that he is "leaning against" joining the CBC.

"My experience has been the whole notion of one nation," Scott said. "So I really shy away from things that create some kind of boundaries. ... It highlights the divisions I've been pushing forward to erase."

sumthn

11-14-2010, 03:25 PM

Yeah, it's just me that has the problem :cool:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20022218-503544.html

Scott told Politico that he is "leaning against" joining the CBC.

"My experience has been the whole notion of one nation," Scott said. "So I really shy away from things that create some kind of boundaries. ... It highlights the divisions I've been pushing forward to erase."

I don't see how this supports your point if it were not for the many people who support groups like the congressional black caucus it wouldn't still be in existence now would it?

sumthn

11-14-2010, 03:29 PM

The 40 or so members of the Congressional Black Caucus sit in 80% Democratic districts for the most part.

Actual black people have to work hard for a living. The CBC? Well, you got guys like Charlie Rangel who openly violate tax laws and get re-elected anyway.......

I really wouldn't take that stance if I were you especially when you stop to think of the many Caucasian politicians who have defrauded and swindled from this country.

JackHandey

11-14-2010, 03:34 PM

If you read the post I made a little while back you will see that many scientist invalidate your so called "data".

One thing I always find fascinating, is that while I have seen plenty of criticisms of methodology, I have yet to see any studies that provide contradictory data. Were it possible to come up with something contradictory, don't you think it would have been displayed prominently by now?

And the fact that they don't exceed academically is not purely due to race. As I said earlier, if it is truly due to race explain why Blacks have learned to read, and have become successful scholars despite the many critics who said that blacks could NEVER learn to read?

Here is something you do not get... What is being said in these studies is that blacks are not as intelligent as whites (and also that whites are not as intelligent as Asians), in general.

That does not mean that the most intelligent of blacks won't be more intelligent than many whites. It just means the smartest of Asians and whites will be more intelligent than the smartest blacks, and that the average white and Asian people are more intelligent than the average black person.

Were this truly intending to simply be racist, do you think they would have allowed that Asians were more intelligent than whites? :lol:

Being exceptionally intelligent is an outlier, for any group. What studies like this look for is a baseline, to determine how one performs, in comparison to their peers.

But even more importantly why do you wish to push this idea that Blacks are naturally unintelligent? What exactly does it add to your life either way?

The larger question is, why do those of leftist political persuasion find it so important to not only suppress the idea, but the actual pursuit of finding out if it is truly the case?

If it is the case, then we can refocus educational spending, and outside of brilliant outliers, focus on vocational training for black people more often. What does it change? I would prefer that black people were more successful.

It would reduce crime, and I wouldn't have people trying to make me feel guilty because I happen to not have dark skin. It's not my fault black people had a bad deal. My family fled Europe; the first wave to escape pogroms in Russia, the second wave was to escape Nazi concentration camps. Some were not so lucky, and did not survive the camps, a few were even more unfortunate and had survived the camps.

Black kids heard about sitting in the back of the bus, and getting sprayed down with fire hoses... I'm sure that sucked. My childhood was filled with stories of pogroms and concentration camps. I would gladly have traded.

DarthSaver

11-14-2010, 03:34 PM

I don't see how this supports your point if it were not for the many people who support groups like the congressional black caucus it wouldn't still be in existence now would it?

Yeah, here are the true patriotic americans that support the CBC

http://www.cbcfinc.org/support-cbcf/cbcf-supporters.html

:secret: I have a feeling they aren't supporting the overcoming of the plight of the black man, but placating them.

see: http://www.spaceg.com/multimedia/collection/politics/Jesse%20Jackson%20race%20card.jpg

JackHandey

11-14-2010, 03:46 PM

I really don't want to get into this type of argument with you concerning the jewish because that is whole different can of worms that I don't want to open. But in all fairness the Jewish people did receive a great deal of help from U.S. powers perhaps not initially but eventually the U.S. came through and they came through strong. In fact didn't Germany pay some sort of restitution to those who had families affected by the holocaust?

Sure, the US did help Jews... However, the US has never bent over backward for Jews like it does for blacks (in policies. as far as cash goes, the US does send plenty of cash to Israel).

Germany has paid restitution to Israel, not Jews in general. There is plenty of antisemitism in the US. It's not as bad as when I was a child, but it is still bad enough, particularly from blacks.

The US has shown plenty of support for Israel, but as far as I know, has not given all of the advantages to Jews that blacks have been afforded.

sumthn

11-14-2010, 04:04 PM

One thing I always find fascinating, is that while I have seen plenty of criticisms of methodology, I have yet to see any studies that provide contradictory data. Were it possible to come up with something contradictory, don't you think it would have been displayed prominently by now?

If you read the criticisms you will see that they are aimed at the fact that the "data" was not valid. One scientist even stated that the professor who wrote the book on intellectual racial differences misinterpreted his findings. So the criticism is not just against the concept but the findings itself.

Here is something you do not get... What is being said in these studies is that blacks are not as intelligent as whites (and also that whites are not as intelligent as Asians), in general.

That does not mean that the most intelligent of blacks won't be more intelligent than many whites. It just means the smartest of Asians and whites will be more intelligent than the smartest blacks, and that the average white and Asian people are more intelligent than the average black person.

Were this truly intending to simply be racist, do you think they would have allowed that Asians were more intelligent than whites? :lol:

I never said it was racist but if you would like me to answer that question it appears as if the findings are simply to validate the stereotypes which would still be racist. However, I did read the professors findings and he put Asians above Whites on a very narrow margin.

Being exceptionally intelligent is an outlier, for any group. What studies like this look for is a baseline, to determine how one performs, in comparison to their peers.

Those who have critiqued the findings have noted that the professor was not consistent in his definition of "peers".

The larger question is, why do those of leftist political persuasion find it so important to not only suppress the idea, but the actual pursuit of finding out if it is truly the case?

I see here that you're trying to push your own political ideas so i'm just going to leave that be.

If it is the case, then we can refocus educational spending, and outside of brilliant outliers, focus on vocational training for black people more often. What does it change? I would prefer that black people were more successful.

Here is the thing, black people have every ability to be successful academically. However, the less black people who do succeed academically the less competition that whites would have to face from them (hints the whole deny blacks an opportunity to an education "idea"). The fact is that in our society today the likelihood of blacks being able to be economically competitive with just vocational training is low.

It would reduce crime, and I wouldn't have people trying to make me feel guilty because I happen to not have dark skin. It's not my fault black people had a bad deal. My family fled Europe; the first wave to escape pogroms in Russia, the second wave was to escape Nazi concentration camps. Some were not so lucky, and did not survive the camps, a few were even more unfortunate and had survived the camps.

As of now I would be more threatened by the increasing Hispanic population who are bringing about crime than the black population because whether you consider it good or bad the African American population is not growing by leaps and bounds. Also if you are not linked to "Anglo-Saxon" White American history why do you feel bad because of what happened to blacks in America, technically that had nothing to do with you or your ancestors.

Black kids heard about sitting in the back of the bus, and getting sprayed down with fire hoses... I'm sure that sucked. My childhood was filled with stories of pogroms and concentration camps. I would gladly have traded.

Guess what if you have a problem with that you can go back to Russia and demand compensation and see where it gets you. I'm sure there are groups in Russia who were affected by the discrimination and abuse that you describe who are/have worked actively to gain something for what they or their families went through but if you're in America there is no one who owes you anything.

sumthn

11-14-2010, 04:12 PM

Sure, the US did help Jews... However, the US has never bent over backward for Jews like it does for blacks (in policies. as far as cash goes, the US does send plenty of cash to Israel).

Germany has paid restitution to Israel, not Jews in general. There is plenty of antisemitism in the US. It's not as bad as when I was a child, but it is still bad enough, particularly from blacks.

The US has shown plenty of support for Israel, but as far as I know, has not given all of the advantages to Jews that blacks have been afforded.

Ok, I don't see why they should. In my opinion they have done more than enough. The U.S. wasn't who stripped Jewish people from their homes and forced them into concentration camps so why should Jews expect to get the same "advantages" from the U.S? And i'm not saying that to be rude, I believe what was done to Jewish people was absolutely awful but the U.S. didn't participate in the holocaust.

I don't know where you grew up but I went to a predominantly White Jewish school district and I did not see much if any anti-semitism from blacks.

Krazen1211

11-14-2010, 04:14 PM

I really wouldn't take that stance if I were you especially when you stop to think of the many Caucasian politicians who have defrauded and swindled from this country.

Those Caucasian politicians tend to get voted out of office.

coulditbeSatan

11-14-2010, 04:14 PM

I recant my statement that you are a troll; you're nothing but a common, disgusting racist. You sicken me. You remind me of a saying that I will paraphrase: 'People don't hate you because you are wrong but people will hate you because they fear you may be right.' :comfort:

Is it now officially okay to be openly (no more subtlety) racist on TP?Who are you to judge anyone? Remember that the modern definition of a racist is someone that is winning an argument with a liberal.

No, actually a good liberal, or rather, a sensible human being in general does not have to legitimize such statements in any way by entertaining the conversation.Another time there is one set of rules for liberals and a different one for those with opposing views.

But as you can see on this thread, they think of black people as an inferior race.Inferior? That's what you are saying. So you think of anyone that is not as 'smart' as you (:teehee:) as inferior. How elitist and supremacist of you.

You don't get to frame the discussion. You also will be held accountable for your own statements.

Uhhhh, I don't understand how I was being a racist. Did you read any of my posts in this thread at all? Can you point out to me how I'm a disgusting racist?You weren't. 'Troll' and 'racist' is pillow talk MadisonAlexa uses with me. My heart's all a flutter.

If you're referring to discoverEdeals, I'm afraid you mis-read his post.She was referring to me through his post. See just above.

One thing I always find fascinating, is that while I have seen plenty of criticisms of methodology, I have yet to see any studies that provide contradictory data. Were it possible to come up with something contradictory, don't you think it would have been displayed prominently by now?It's much easier to be self-righteous and just hurl liberal hate and hostility at their opponents.

That does not mean that the most intelligent of blacks won't be more intelligent than many whites. It just means the smartest of Asians and whites will be more intelligent than the smartest blacks, and that the average white and Asian people are more intelligent than the average black person. Exactly.

Were this truly intending to simply be racist, do you think they would have allowed that Asians were more intelligent than whites? :lol::bigeye: They is??? Why that's just hurrible! Hurrible! The studies are automatically wrong!

The larger question is, why do those of leftist political persuasion find it so important to not only suppress the idea, but the actual pursuit of finding out if it is truly the case? Because they fear the truth. The patronizing and condescending 'old plantation' style liberals believe in is their way of keeping blacks enslaved to them. If I were black I'd tell liberals to go to hell and that I am perfectly capable of standing on my own two feet without them telling me when and where to stand.

I would prefer that black people were more successful. Me too. Sadly you don't help someone get stronger by doing everything for them while telling them they are not as good as whites and need all this extra 'help'....but it is a great way to control and exploit them.

Give a liberal a fish and you have fed that liberal for a day. Teach a liberal to fish and the liberal returns the next day wanting more free fish.

sumthn

11-14-2010, 04:17 PM

Yeah, here are the true patriotic americans that support the CBC

http://www.cbcfinc.org/support-cbcf/cbcf-supporters.html

:secret: I have a feeling they aren't supporting the overcoming of the plight of the black man, but placating them.

Once again your point is lost. Based on the list you provided (which is quite extensive) there are many organizations that support the Congressional Black Caucus. Honestly, as I said earlier I don't see any problem with them coming together to solve the problems facing their community. The same way I don't see any issues with Jewish, Christian, Asian, Latio or Native American organizations of which there are many doing the same.

Those Caucasian politicians tend to get voted out of office.

LOL! Not all of them.

sumthn

11-14-2010, 04:25 PM

You remind me of a saying that I will paraphrase: 'People don't hate you because you are wrong but people will hate you because they fear you may be right.' :comfort:

Who are you to judge anyone? Remember that the modern definition of a racist is someone that is winning an argument with a liberal.

Another time there is one set of rules for liberals and a different one for those with opposing views.

It's much easier to be self-righteous and just hurl liberal hate and hostility at their opponents.

Because they fear the truth. The patronizing and condescending 'old plantation' style liberals believe in is their way of keeping blacks enslaved to them. If I were black I'd tell liberals to go to hell and that I am perfectly capable of standing on my own two feet without them telling me when and where to stand.

Me too. Sadly you don't help someone get stronger by doing everything for them while telling them they are not as good as whites and need all this extra 'help'....but it is a great way to control and exploit them.

Give a liberal a fish and you have fed that liberal for a day. Teach a liberal to fish and the liberal returns the next day wanting more free fish.

Wow! you are really bitter aren't you? It appears as if you are mad at the "liberals" and now that's your excuse for everything. So now you are mad at blacks for associating with the "liberals".

coulditbeSatan

11-14-2010, 04:31 PM

Wow! you are really bitter aren't you? It appears as if you are mad at the "liberals" and now that's your excuse for everything. So now you are mad at blacks for associating with the "liberals".:huh: Does the truth hurt you that much that you need to project? Bitterness is best worn by liberals I think. It feeds their self-righteous and pious attitudes. Thanks again for proving that you've got nuthin' but personal attacks and insults. Why counter an argument when insults will do! :whee:

You can't deny that liberals wear their hearts on their sleaze.

http://patriotupdate.com/articleimages/poster_10.jpg (http://patriotupdate.com/articleimages/poster_10.jpg)

sumthn

11-14-2010, 04:45 PM

:huh: Does the truth hurt you that much that you need to project? Bitterness is best worn by liberals I think. It feeds their self-righteous and pious attitudes. Thanks again for proving that you've got nuthin' but personal attacks and insults. Why counter an argument when insults will do! :whee:

You can't deny that liberals wear their hearts on their sleaze.

You're really pathetic...and i'm not a liberal. But which ever side you do affiliate with I certainly hope it's not the same as mine or else i'm embarrassed to say you're a representation of my position.

coulditbeSatan

11-14-2010, 04:50 PM

You're really pathetic...and i'm not a liberal. But which ever side you do affiliate with I certainly hope it's not the same as mine or else i'm embarrassed to say you're a representation of my position.And you still got nuthin'! No argument or anything to counter. Just your raw emotions and your feelings. Must be nice to be so superior to others....

sumthn

11-14-2010, 04:56 PM

And you still got nuthin'! No argument or anything to counter. Just your raw emotions and your feelings. Must be nice to be so superior to others....

Yep you have some issues you're not exactly the most rational person. I already said i'm not a liberal so i'm not arguing whether liberals are right are wrong.( Now, that I have said that what's your argument for me thinking you're crazy?) But if you would like to argue whether you're sane or a nutcase we can do that...psst I'm taking the side that you are a nutcase!

coulditbeSatan

11-14-2010, 04:59 PM

Yep you have some issues you're not exactly the most rational person. I already said i'm not a liberal so i'm not arguing whether liberals are right are wrong.( Now, that I have said that what's your argument for me thinking you're crazy?) But if you would like to argue whether you're sane or a nutcase we can do that...psst I'm taking the side that you are a nutcase!:lol: Now I get it. Yeah I remember when I had my first beer.

JackHandey

11-14-2010, 05:24 PM

I never said it was racist but if you would like me to answer that question it appears as if the findings are simply to validate the stereotypes which would still be racist. However, I did read the professors findings and he put Asians above Whites on a very narrow margin.

The problem with stereotypes is that people often misapply them by assuming that they are universally applicable to all members of a group. However, most stereotypes are supported by a grain of truth.

If the findings are indeed accurate, and validate the stereotypes, so what? Is the truth ever inherently racist?

Here is the thing, black people have every ability to be successful academically. However, the less black people who do succeed academically the less competition that whites would have to face from them (hints the whole deny blacks an opportunity to an education "idea"). The fact is that in our society today the likelihood of blacks being able to be economically competitive with just vocational training is low.

There physical differences between black people; You will never see as many successful white sprinters as black, and I also doubt you will see as many black serious academics as whites. That does not mean that either is superior or inferior to the other, it just means they are each more likely to have differing strengths.

I am not saying that all black people cannot perform on par with whites, it just appears that most lack the ability. I think it is a mixture of both negative social pressures within their community, and possibly a problem of widespread lack of ability to perform on the same level academically as those from other ethnic backgrounds (which compounds the already present inferiority complex).

The biggest problem here, is that if it is the case that most blacks cannot perform on par with others, then we need to figure out how to educate them to be more productive to society, and to make sure we identify those that are stellar academic performers and make sure they get the education they are capable of, too.

As of now I would be more threatened by the increasing Hispanic population who are bringing about crime than the black population because whether you consider it good or bad the African American population is not growing by leaps and bounds. Also if you are not linked to "Anglo-Saxon" White American history why do you feel bad because of what happened to blacks in America, technically that had nothing to do with you or your ancestors.

While Hispanics are indeed growing at a faster rate than blacks, blacks are also growing at a faster rate than whites. I do not precisely "feel bad" about the black plight, but rather am both tired of being blamed for it because I have white skin, and also tired of the idea that anyone can get away with blaming others for their situation in life indefinitely.

Also, iirc, blacks have a higher rate of pregnancy, but they also have a much higher abortion rate than Hispanics, too.

Guess what if you have a problem with that you can go back to Russia and demand compensation and see where it gets you. I'm sure there are groups in Russia who were affected by the discrimination and abuse that you describe who are/have worked actively to gain something for what they or their families went through but if you're in America there is no one who owes you anything.

I can accept that sort of answer with equianimity. Now please have the testicular fortitude to say the same thing to black people and Africa.

Ok, I don't see why they should. In my opinion they have done more than enough. The U.S. wasn't who stripped Jewish people from their homes and forced them into concentration camps so why should Jews expect to get the same "advantages" from the U.S? And i'm not saying that to be rude, I believe what was done to Jewish people was absolutely awful but the U.S. didn't participate in the holocaust.

I don't know where you grew up but I went to a predominantly White Jewish school district and I did not see much if any anti-semitism from blacks.

Most white people never owned slaves, either. Only 1% of white people in America owned slaves. In fact, freed blacks owned more slaves per capita than whites did. My point being that not all white people were out to oppress black people, and more importantly, most did not.

I grew up in Northern California, in a predominantly black neighborhood (until I was 10, and my mother decided through her perverse sense of humor to move to a more rural area and force me to adapt to that).

larrymoencurly

11-14-2010, 06:33 PM

Somehow, you feel your opinion of Byrd, trumps his own words. It doesn't.

OK, then here are some of his words:

"Barack Obama is a noble-hearted patriot and humble Christian, and he has my full faith and support."

Robert Byrd, May 2008

So typically KKK Grand Dragon to endorse a black man for President, don't you think?

coulditbeSatan

11-14-2010, 06:41 PM

OK, then here are some of his words:

"Barack Obama is a noble-hearted patriot and humble Christian, and he has my full faith and support."

Robert Byrd, May 2008

So typically KKK Grand Dragon to endorse a black man for President, don't you think?You left out the best stuff from Byrd!

“I will never submit to fight beneath that banner with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."”

Guess he was just saying what he had to with Obismal.

Elmer

11-14-2010, 06:54 PM

OK, then here are some of his words:

"Barack Obama is a noble-hearted patriot and humble Christian, and he has my full faith and support."

Robert Byrd, May 2008

So typically KKK Grand Dragon to endorse a black man for President, don't you think?

Nope.

Just another politician trying to protect his fiefdom....... Since when did you start believing what politicians say?

Oh, wait....I forgot.................there's that whole "D" thing.......

I'll bet his private conversations with his friends were...............interesting..... Probably even more so than Bill Clinton's conversation that he thought would remain private.........

"A few years ago, this guy would have been getting us coffee," the former president told Ted Kennedy.

After Kennedy sided with Obama, Clinton said, "the only reason you are endorsing him is because he's black. Let's just be clear."

Oops............... Would have thought Bill would have known better..... but he pick the fat intern after all......

larrymoencurly

11-14-2010, 06:58 PM

One thing I always find fascinating, is that while I have seen plenty of criticisms of methodology, I have yet to see any studies that provide contradictory data.
There may be some in Thomas Sowell's Ethnic America. For example, in Hawaii, Asians aren't superior to other groups. IQ results differ among the three major old African groups: 1) Africans who came to the US directly from Africa and were freed before the Civil War; 2) direct from Africa, slaves until the Civil War; 3) from Africa to the US via the West Indies. Some people claim the first group consisted of intellectually superior Africans, but the other two groups are genetically identical, overall, because the slave ships sailed the same routes, and some intended for the US crashed on the islands.

Another source is Steven Jay Gould's The Mismeasure of Man.

Brain size differences by race, as determined by skull cavity volume, was disproved by an AMA study in either the late 19th or very early 20th century.

You may want to look into the MCPH1 brain size limiting gene and its rate of occurence among different races. This might help your cause thesis.

While you're at it, what about women? While men and women average the same IQs, at the high extreme, like above 180, the ratio of men:women is as high as 3:1. OTOH at the low end, men outnumber women.

Finally, look into the natural physical superiority of the Jewish athlete. 80-90 years ago, some academics wondered about this because of Jewish domination in basketball, just as
they now do about blacks in the sport. Genetics, obviously.

larrymoencurly

11-14-2010, 07:01 PM

Nope.

Just another politician trying to protect his fiefdom....... Since when did you start believing what politicians say?
Then why did you trust his words in that YouTube video you cited of Byrd? Why wasn't he just another politician trying to protect his feifdom in that interview?

sumthn

11-14-2010, 07:07 PM

The problem with stereotypes is that people often misapply them by assuming that they are universally applicable to all members of a group. However, most stereotypes are supported by a grain of truth.

If the findings are indeed accurate, and validate the stereotypes, so what? Is the truth ever inherently racist?

It's not the truth since the findings are not accurate.

There physical differences between black people; You will never see as many successful white sprinters as black, and I also doubt you will see as many black serious academics as whites. That does not mean that either is superior or inferior to the other, it just means they are each more likely to have differing strengths.

I don't believe that it's due to "natural" strengths it's due to other factors like environment etc. Academics is something that is really pushed in the Asian community and pushed in the White community while athletics tend to be embraced more often by blacks hints why each tend to excel in the separate categories. If academics were pushed in the black communities as it is in the Asian community I have no doubt that blacks could succeed at the same level. I also believe that if whites spent more time cultivating themselves to be competitive sprinters they would have the ability to compete with some of the fastest black athletes.

If you notice the academic "curve" is in direct correlation with how each race/culture regards education. The Asian race seems to excel the most but they also take it the most seriously. In many ways I admire how China prepares their youth. It's almost as if they breed engineers and doctors while in the U.S. they push this idea of being "well rounded" and you have to wait until college before actually pursuing a career and even then most American children still don't know what they want to do. This is why American children as a whole are behind Chinese children. Whites put a some what heavy importance on education but not to the same level as Asians hints why white children don't match the academic levels as Asian children but I don't believe that it's because they are incapable. African American's put more of an importance in sports and entertainment but if they shifted the importance from sports and entertainment towards education I know they could excel academically the same way they have athletically. Think just 30 some years ago a black quarterback in the NFL was unheard of and now some of the best quarterbacks are black.

I am not saying that all black people cannot perform on par with whites, it just appears that most lack the ability. I think it is a mixture of both negative social pressures within their community, and possibly a problem of widespread lack of ability to perform on the same level academically as those from other ethnic backgrounds (which compounds the already present inferiority complex).

The biggest problem here, is that if it is the case that most blacks cannot perform on par with others, then we need to figure out how to educate them to be more productive to society, and to make sure we identify those that are stellar academic performers and make sure they get the education they are capable of, too.

No, we don't need to do that. What we need to do is help the underperforming african americans realize their true potential rather than listen to the constant propaganda that they are incapable because they are black. Mind you the original study that was pointed out in this thread was aimed at black males not all blacks.

While Hispanics are indeed growing at a faster rate than blacks, blacks are also growing at a faster rate than whites. I do not precisely "feel bad" about the black plight, but rather am both tired of being blamed for it because I have white skin, and also tired of the idea that anyone can get away with blaming others for their situation in life indefinitely.

Blacks are not growing at a faster rate than whites that's actually one of the main issues facing the African American community. I would like to see a source that says otherwise. I really think you should get over the being "blamed" idea. Honestly it could be a lot worse. Instead of just being blamed you could be forced out of your home and lose your "worldly positions" as restitution so seeing as how no one is forcing you to actually do anything I would really get over that if I were you.

Also, iirc, blacks have a higher rate of pregnancy, but they also have a much higher abortion rate than Hispanics, too.

Another thing I really need you to cite because I have not heard anywhere that blacks have a higher rate of pregnancy than hispanics. Also I don't even see how this is relevant.

I can accept that sort of answer with equianimity. Now please have the testicular fortitude to say the same thing to black people and Africa.

No, I can't say that because White American's were very much so apart of the slave trade and in fact White Americans were one of the last "civilizations" to actually move on from slavery. It got to the point that foreign nations including Europe didn't even want to trade goods with the United States because they continued to support slavery.

Most white people never owned slaves, either. Only 1% of white people in America owned slaves. In fact, freed blacks owned more slaves per capita than whites did. My point being that not all white people were out to oppress black people, and more importantly, most did not.

You must cite this because I do not believe this at all! I also never said all white people were out to oppress black people that's obvious if you know anything about U.S. history. There were several white abolitionist who made a great impact on the lives of African Americans.

I grew up in Northern California, in a predominantly black neighborhood (until I was 10, and my mother decided through her perverse sense of humor to move to a more rural area and force me to adapt to that).

Hmm...that's unfortunate I guess but you seem to have turned out ok so i'll say she knew what she was doing :)

coulditbeSatan

11-14-2010, 07:37 PM

TruthinWhole

11-14-2010, 09:05 PM

You didn't answer mine.

It'll end when there is more equality. Slavery set the race back many years and not just in the act of slavery but the belief system that was perpetuated by Whites during slavery. The belief system that continues today, the belief that blacks are not smart enough or able enough.

And there's evidence that it's true. So what? Who cares what the average is? No one's stopping a smart black student from going to college.

No, that is ok because I saw absolutely no relevance in your post as well. I don't know many blacks who go around calling themselves stupid but perhaps you have more experience with blacks than I do. If you read the post I made a little while back you will see that many scientist invalidate your so called "data". And the fact that they don't exceed academically is not purely due to race. As I said earlier, if it is truly due to race explain why Blacks have learned to read, and have become successful scholars despite the many critics who said that blacks could NEVER learn to read?

But even more importantly why do you wish to push this idea that Blacks are naturally unintelligent? What exactly does it add to your life either way?

Because as it is, if blacks aren't equally represented in academic endeavors, liberals use it as proof of white racism. It's fair to suggest an alternate theory.

larrymoencurly

11-14-2010, 09:46 PM

"[Watson] is "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really"
- Dr. James Watson, Nobel Prize recipient for his part in unraveling DNA.

ruh-roh

:hide:
And Dr. Kary Mullis, Nobel laureate for invention of PCR DNA amplifiation, says HIV has nothing to do with AIDS. This is why it's important to cite the consensus of the experts and not just cherry pick individual experts.

sumthn

11-15-2010, 05:20 AM

And there's evidence that it's true. So what? Who cares what the average is? No one's stopping a smart black student from going to college.

Because as it is, if blacks aren't equally represented in academic endeavors, liberals use it as proof of white racism. It's fair to suggest an alternate theory.

No one says that the lack of equal representation of blacks in schools is proof of white racism. I don't even see how the two relate. Racism has nothing to do with it. I think that's the problem with whites and blacks neither really listens to what the other is trying to say. You clearly don't understand the issue being addressed. Instead of constantly trying defend yourself against goodness only knows what how about you take the time to learn what is actually being discussed.

TruthinWhole

11-15-2010, 05:32 AM

No one says that the lack of equal representation of blacks in schools is proof of white racism. I don't even see how the two relate. Racism has nothing to do with it. I think that's the problem with whites and blacks neither really listens to what the other is trying to say. You clearly don't understand the issue being addressed. Instead of constantly trying defend yourself against goodness only knows what how about you take the time to learn what is actually being discussed.

Read the article in the first post. People constantly expect blacks to perform the same as their percentage of the population.

sumthn

11-15-2010, 05:44 AM

Read the article in the first post. People constantly expect blacks to perform the same as their percentage of the population.

Read my last post! I said no one thinks it's white racism that they don't.

TruthinWhole

11-15-2010, 06:02 AM

I never said anything about separately achieving equality. There are many established groups where blacks and whites work side by side like the NAACP, I just see nothing wrong with a group a black people coming together find solutions to problems that affect them. I don't see why that is such a problem for you.

When those "solutions" all involve taking my money, then yes, it is a problem for me.

Read my last post! I said no one thinks it's white racism that they don't.

And you should read mine. If you start from the assumption that blacks are as intelligent as whites on average, only then will you see black underrepresentation in certain schools and jobs as a problem.

smegalicious

11-15-2010, 06:19 AM

If you start from the assumption that blacks are as intelligent as whites on average, only then will you see black underrepresentation in certain schools and jobs as a problem.
So your belief in the opposite stems not from any perceived validity to that claim, but merely so that you can conveniently ignore such "problems"?

TruthinWhole

11-15-2010, 07:21 AM

So your belief in the opposite stems not from any perceived validity to that claim, but merely so that you can conveniently ignore such "problems"?

No, my belief in the opposite stems from the mountains of data, including IQ tests, other aptitude tests, military intelligence tests, firefighter and police entrance exams, and the fact that there is not a single country in the world with a black majority that is anything but a basket case.

TruthinWhole

11-15-2010, 07:24 AM

Here is the thing, black people have every ability to be successful academically. However, the less black people who do succeed academically the less competition that whites would have to face from them (hints the whole deny blacks an opportunity to an education "idea"). The fact is that in our society today the likelihood of blacks being able to be economically competitive with just vocational training is low.

You're going in circles. You're attempting to prove the truth of your premises from your conclusions.

smegalicious

11-15-2010, 07:30 AM

No, my belief in the opposite stems from the mountains of data, including IQ tests, other aptitude tests, military intelligence tests, firefighter and police entrance exams, and the fact that there is not a single country in the world with a black majority that is anything but a basket case.
And with "facts" like those, who needs anything else?

TruthinWhole

11-15-2010, 07:34 AM

The biggest problem here, is that if it is the case that most blacks cannot perform on par with others, then we need to figure out how to educate them to be more productive to society, and to make sure we identify those that are stellar academic performers and make sure they get the education they are capable of, too.

Exactly. People of all races should be educated to the extent of their abilities. But that doesn't mean we have to fool ourselves into thinking that all schoolchildren have the same abilities, which is part of why even as an arch conservative, I oppose the idea of merit pay based on test scores.

And with "facts" like those, who needs anything else?

Ignore time. Bye!

TruthinWhole

11-15-2010, 07:41 AM

There may be some in Thomas Sowell's Ethnic America. For example, in Hawaii, Asians aren't superior to other groups. IQ results differ among the three major old African groups: 1) Africans who came to the US directly from Africa and were freed before the Civil War; 2) direct from Africa, slaves until the Civil War; 3) from Africa to the US via the West Indies. Some people claim the first group consisted of intellectually superior Africans, but the other two groups are genetically identical, overall, because the slave ships sailed the same routes, and some intended for the US crashed on the islands.

Another source is Steven Jay Gould's The Mismeasure of Man.

Brain size differences by race, as determined by skull cavity volume, was disproved by an AMA study in either the late 19th or very early 20th century.

You may want to look into the MCPH1 brain size limiting gene and its rate of occurence among different races. This might help your cause thesis.

While you're at it, what about women? While men and women average the same IQs, at the high extreme, like above 180, the ratio of men:women is as high as 3:1. OTOH at the low end, men outnumber women.

Finally, look into the natural physical superiority of the Jewish athlete. 80-90 years ago, some academics wondered about this because of Jewish domination in basketball, just as
they now do about blacks in the sport. Genetics, obviously.

Gould is the only on I've seen, and there are many critics of his methodologies as well.

As for Asians in Hawaii, I believe that most of them are southeast asians/polynesians, and not the East Asians we think of with the high IQ's like Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans.