Women delivering newspapers in Torrance shot in manhunt for ex-cop/Dorner thread
 

Women delivering newspapers in Torrance shot in manhunt for ex-cop [latimes.com]

Two women who were shot by Los Angeles police in Torrance early Thursday during a massive manhunt for an ex-LAPD officer were delivering newspapers, sources said.

The women, shot in the 19500 block of Redbeam Avenue, were taken to area hospitals, Torrance police Lt. Devin Chase said. They were not identified. One was shot in the hand and the other in the back, according to Jesse Escochea, who captured video of the victims being treated.
It was not immediately known what newspapers the women were delivering. After the shooting, the blue pickup was riddled with bullet holes and what appeared to be newspapers lay in the street alongside.

--------

While on a manhunt for an Ex-LAPD officer (lone black man, driving a grey Nissan Titan w/ black roof rack) police somehow, mistakenly, shoot up 2 ladies delivering newspapers while they were driving a bright blue, Toyota Tacoma. Thank god they didn't kill either person; one was shot in the hand and the other in the back.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/ass...al-gallery.jpg

State sanctioned gang violence.

what's odd about this whole thing is that the police seem to REALLY want this guy dead - reports of multiple innocent bystander shootings - I don't recall hearing about this with the random wanted person.

Wow, after this and the NY incident maybe we should take guns away from LEO's and only allow private citizens to carry.

Yep, it reminds me of a track on one of my favorite albums in college. [youtube.com]

I wish I was those women; the amount of money they will be able to sue for will definitely be over 1 million dollars!

guilty until proven innocent - look a blue truck! shoot it up!

btw didn't they find the guy's truck all burnt out somewhere?

Yep, by a ski lodge, north of where he started IIRC.

http://gma.yahoo.com/christopher-...ories.html

It's not odd at all. This guy has killed 3 people. One of which was a police officer and he shot two other offiders. He's also said that he's going to bring "unconventional and asymmetrical warfare" to police officers and their families. He has also said his attacks on police and their families are "a necessary evil that I do not enjoy but must partake and complete for substantial change to occur within the LAPD and reclaim my name."

I'm pretty sure that right there makes him not exactly a random wanted person. The moment you F with the police, and especially their families, you have to expect they'll be a little less reserved....

Ya, that's the stranger thing. Perhaps they didn't get the memo :dontknow:

OK so every time they get a description of a perp's car, they go around firing at anything that resembles it?

I mean, WTF - fark I hope if you own a blue truck in CA you don't plan on driving it any time soon.



A vehicle that matched the description of Dorner’s truck was driving down the road, but was delivering newspapers, the report said. Two older women were delivering papers when police opened fire, the report said. One woman was shot in the back, the other in the hand. They both are expected to survive.
Another person was shot driving a pickup truck after additional Torrance police arrived at the scene, the report said. Reports of his injuries were unclear, but he is considered to be in good condition.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/02...z2KKd3zL9r

Still doesn't explain them shooting random people who don't remotely fit the suspects description. IMO, that's much more than "a little less reserved." That's going off the deep end.

AFAIK, they found his burning vehicle well after this shooting.

Incident 1: Truck shot up, 2 women injured
Incident 2: Truck shot up, nobody injured
Incident 3: Truck shot up, man injured

It seems that the police really want him dead. Shoot first, look second. I have colorblindness and I wouldn't mistake sky blue for charcoal gray.

If you are black and in Southern California, it's best to stay indoors. If it's between 11pm and 7am, it's best not to drive a truck. If you live in the mountains where the manhunt currently is, be careful. The police have proven to be a bigger threat than the suspect.

Yeah. I'm quite surprised how generous the media has been to the police for these incidents.

Let me clarify. I'm not saying it's not odd at all that they shot up the blue truck. That is F'ed up. I was saying that it's not odd at all that the police seem to want him dead. Ya know, the post I replied to :D

Read the manifesto [latimes.com] this guy left behind. You'll understand REAL quick why the LAPD are jumpier than a long tailed cat in nursing home. This guy is serious, willing to die for his cause and not afraid of anything.

I understand that, but that doesn't call for shooting up every blue/grey truck in CA.

Could it be that they are afraid of all the dirt he (apparently) has on a number of officers?

Maybe it's just me but no matter how much dirt I had, no matter how innocent I was, and no matter how unfair my firing was I would NEVER shoot an innocent to try and make my point.

Regardless of what he knows this guy is a piece of shit and lost any and all credibility with me.

Did you read the whole thing? The guy has many paragraphs of, "If you are [this].... then you are high value target." I can understand the jumpiness of the LAPD. It doesn't excuse it, but I can certainly put myself in their shoes.

The bigger problem that isn't even being addressed is the corruption. Just like many of the mass killers in history, there are YEARS of (perceived/real/misdirected) abuse that they feel. Then we as a society simply say they were mentally ill. Why is that? What is it that makes us feel ok with making/thinking ourselves better than someone else?

I agree.

The LAPD could defuse this whole thing though...

please point out the post where I said shooting random people or cops was OK.

I don't care who he threatens (and yes I read the relevant parts in the PDF), the cops shooting up random vehicles is inexcusable.

How many bullets did they put into that truck before they realized it wasn't the right person?

Maybe the crazy guy was right about his complaints about the LAPD...

Not sure. Here's a picture of the investigators marking the bullet holes/evidence.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6...8532be3970d-pi

Also, AFAIK, this wasn't the LAPD but the Torrance PD.

Very true.

If you are a cop or a judge who has ever put anyone in jail, you need to be on your toes 100% of the time. There is no justification for police shooting at anyone vaguely matching the description. Inexcusable.

:omg: 46 bullet holes and they aren't even finished counting. Ready, fire, reload, fire, reload, fire, aim! That is insane!

And the occupants of the truck survived? That is a miracle!

EDIT: I find the "crimestopper" bumper sticker on the back of the cruiser in the photo incredibly ironic.

but but but the crazy guy threatened the police!

fark this

if the cops can't distinguish 2 old asian ladies delivering newspapers from a burly black dude with the vendetta......

Please point out the post where I said that you said shooting random people or cops was OK.

Some of the bullet holes in the photo are a lot smaller than the others.

Ready, fire, reload, fire, pull your backup gun, fire, aim.

Absolutely crazy that they emptied their duty weapons, spare mags, and likely backup weapon before identifying the vehicle occupants.

I saw in another picture what looked to be shotgun shell casings on the ground by the drivers side door. I don't know what they use in their shotguns but I highly doubt they were using slugs. That may be a reason for so many bullet holes.

I think that might be the whole point of his revenge, he knows that if he tells anyone, no one will care, look at why he was fired, and why all his appeals failed, because cops don't snitch on cops, which is why Beck isn't willing to "Clear his name" or mention anything that internal affairs would probably be apart of.......so the excops only logical thing he could think of for these cops to get the message is to kill and he won't stop until they admit it....obviously cops will never admit anything because that would just invoke riots...like

anyways, this guy just needs to be caught already

also here is the ladies names that were shot

Emma Hernandez, 71, was delivering the Los Angeles Times with her daughter, Margie Carranza, 47, in the 19500 block of Redbeam Avenue in Torrance on Thursday morning when Los Angeles police officers apparently mistook their blue Toyota Tacoma for a truck belonging to Christopher Dorner, the 33-year-old fugitive suspected of killing three people and injuring two others.

Hernandez, who attorney Glen T. Jonas said was shot twice in the back, was in stable condition late Thursday. Carranza received stitches on her finger.

“One would expect the city would acknowledge responsibility and handle the situation appropriately,” he said. “And if they don’t, we’ll deal with it.”

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/l...oting.html

It's amazing how 1 guy is able to stir all of this shit up. Police are broken

His truck was found yesterday afternoon. This shooting occured in the early morning.

This will ne interesting when the whole story comes out.

How much of that is fact and how much is conjecture?

The LA Times indicated the facebook manifesto was believed to be connected to Christopher Dorner or similar doublespeak.

Is there hard evidence linking him to the shootings?

Maybe the guy is psycho?
OR...
Maybe he has the goods on LAPD and they desperately want him silenced? To the point that they would falsify evidence and portray the guy as a dangerous psycho on the loose.

Also of note, we once again see a comical lack of firearms knowledge in the MSM

From ABC [go.com]

Dorner also claims to have a .50 caliber rifle, which fires bullets five inches long....

Five inches, wow! Maybe the author was thinking of something else?

LAPD trainers rated him an "expert" sharpshooter with a .9 millimeter handgun

.9 mm handgun :lol: That is a small bullet. Maybe like micro pellet gun which killed Georgi Markov?

What's interesting is all the stories that are coming out where most people describe him as pleasant and capable while the ex-wife crucifies him as a psycho.

Many psychos appear that way to those who do not know them well.

Probably true. What's tragic are the turn of events that led him to this path.

Between this and other "cop shoots innocent victem" stories I have read the last week or two it sounds like we need stricter gun control laws ... for cops. No wonder civilians feel they need to own guns for protection.

I'm wondering when we'll hear about some crime these two ladies have allegedly committed that's "discovered" soon. It sounds like they currently have pretty widespread support (at least here). If they end up portrayed as criminals, that's likely to change.

I hypothesize no payout for these two.

Slinging crystal along with the morning paper perhaps?

The officers found their activity suspicious because they were ostensibly delivering newspapers. "It is 2013. Nobody reads newspapers." said one of the officers involved.

Yeah, like cartridge dimensions: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...2.7x99.svg.png
Or maybe a misplaced decimal point. :rolleyes:


Why are you so desperate to post misprints?

either way, the bullet is not 5". the cartridge maybe, but all that illustrates is that many are ignorant about guns.

The bullet is .5 inches.

Stop the presses, they misplaced a decimal point! Twice!

Except the bullet isn't 0.5 inches in length.


I can think of no decimal point error thst would lead to the statement in the article. Not knowing what a bullet is would be the most likely cause of that error.


These are not misprints. These are rookie errors demonstrating that the MSM which loves to advocate gun bans has no clue what they are talkng about.

You are right. The writer was most likely referring to cartridge length which is 5 inches.

However, ignorance of such terminology does not translate to ignorance of the effects of firing such a bullet, which is what you seem to be implying.

A Tragic Misinterpretation [nydailynews.com]

"As an officer, you look for cues. You know how someone drives normally and then you see someone coming at you slowly, driving in the middle of the street, stopping and starting. That can be misinterpreted," Beck said of the moments before cops unleashed a hail of bullets on the women.

In other words, they were so scared they were soiling their pants and Seven officers unloaded on the truck without even id'ing the occupants. Inexcusable.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BCjTOn_CcAA4DTn.jpg <------- explains all the bullet holes

Consider how so much law enforcement have stopped their regular duties all because of ONE guy. Now make it many guys or a natural disaster, and realize how quickly government protection for the masses can go away and you are left to fend for yourself. ...Similar to people during the hurricane.
I expect they'll get a nice payout. They were delivering papers with their lights off like lots of paper carriers do. Perhaps the biggest question is if the rationale for shooting was because they rolled up and threw something out the window, no other house in that vicinity had a paper delivered for the cops to see the same behavior elsewhere?

Mental note to self- If cops are seeking someone with vehicle which matches mine, don't take car

Or wear body armor and retain a good lawyer.

LAPD to Re-Open Case into Fugitive Christopher Dorner's Termination
[nbclosangeles.com]

Women shot during LAPD ex-cop manhunt had no warning, lawyer says [nbcnews.com]

These cops were totally in the wrong.

But what if this innocent woman had a handgun, or an AR-15 with a high-capacity magazine? She could have shot back!

And then, the six cops would have killed her.

How? With their batons? They appear to have emptied every firearm they had into the vehicle, unprovoked and for no good reason whilst they wet themselves in fear of two innocent Asian delivery women.

I'd say it's a pretty good bet that the ex-cop has taken himself out of the equation already. If the cops find him, it will likely end up the same anyway. That's still no good reason to be shooting up civilians though.

Why isn't there more MSM outrage?

Why is there almost an absence of coverage to the other two vehicles that were shot up? A couple of articles briefly mention the other shootings that night but then immediately switch focus. Sure one incident, nobody was hurt. Another incident, a man go shot.

You think the cops could not reload?

They are Hispanic, not Asian.

These shootings are routinely covered up. Police regularly shoot or kill unarmed people. We're talking hundreds per year.

I think this story may have hit upon something: the myth of the superhuman policeman - nerves of steel, brass balls, expert marksmanship. I volunteer some time each month to maintain the pistol range at my gun club. The worst it ever gets shot up is when a police department is using it.

Kathy Merkosky, 53, was outside her stucco home pointing out the six bullet holes in the bumper and grill of her silver Acura MD-X. She knew her truck was damaged when she spotted it on television and "saw fluid flowing into the street."

Her Ford Focus was hit as well — a bullet shattered the windshield and another flattened a front tire.

...

Goo said he could hear the bullets hitting the front door and feared they were coming through the house. He said he called 911 for the police, but was notified that they were already there.

[latimes.com]
I will not be surprised to learn these cops emptied everything they had at the truck and the round count is in the 100's.

Totally irresponsible use of firearms by the police. Let me count the ways.

But the cops were guarding a a high value LAPD official, so who cares about innocent civilians, right?

the irony is that as a private citizen, there are SO many laws on where I can shoot, even on my own land - not within 500 feet of roads, other houses, utility lines, state land, established trails, blah blah blah, but the police can treat a road as the OK corral and it doesn't even get a glance by the MSM.

I think in CA they should remove every firearm law from the books and allow citizens to be armed to the teeth. However, I think the cops there should have nothing but billy-clubs. It is clear who is the dangerous ones in CA.

Obviously they were out to execute the guy and capture never came into their minds. Sad.

Police have also pleaded with local residents not to try to mount a civilian vigilante force or try to aid in the hunt for the fugitive.

However, one Big Bear resident, Dennis Pollock, said: “I did 12 years in the Marine Corps. Give me a sniper rifle, some gear, and point me in his general direction and get out of my way.”

Another local said: “We know every inch of this terrain and could be a real help to the cops, but all they’ve told us to do is stay at home and lock all our doors.” [express.co.uk]

We wouldn't want civilians out panicking and shooting up the neighborhood. We leave that to the police. :lol:

The groveling by LAPD is already underway.

Delivery Women Shot in Torrance to Get New Truck Courtesy of LAPD [nbclosangeles.com]

Chief Charlie Beck met with the women in their Torrance home Saturday to apologize and tell them he had arranged for someone to donate a new pickup truck, Smith said. The truck will be donated early this week.





Also, another article with more detail on the collateral damage - many cars, trees, roofs, and homes.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/l...nhunt.html

This event is really scary. this is like something i would expect to see happening in the third world. opening fire without identifying the perp is inexcusable (unless they are being fired on).

Another mistaken identity shooting by the LAPD [latimes.com]

The LAPD sure is pretty trigger happy. It really makes me wonder if Dorner's complaints about the LAPD were true.

Dorner looks better as the LAPD acts more and more stupidly. He can just hole up and lay low somewhere while the LAPD craps its pants and goes around acting like homicidal maniacs.


BTW, LA's mayor chimed in:

"We will not tolerate anyone undermining the security, the tranquility of our neighborhoods and our communities," Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa told reporters. "We will not tolerate this reign of terror that has robbed us of the peace of mind that residents of Southern California deserve." [cnn.com]

:rofl2: Oh the irony!

There are some choice quotes in that article.

Who is he talking about here?

Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil [msn.com]

Not so fast...

This guy would be a good candidate to be the 1st person on American soil to be blown up by a drone.

:iagree:

Take him out with whatever means is necessary....

Perhaps 0bama will suspend Posse Comitatus to bail out his police union supporters. It is clear the LAPD want Dorner dead. Not "dead or alive" - just dead. Dead people can't dish to the press about LAPD's dirty laundry.

If he refuses to surrender, which he obviously is doing, and cannot be captured alive then he should be taken out via sniper or drone before he has the opportunity to kill another victim.

They certainly don't take kindly to fellow officers reporting police brutality.

I'd hide too if the police were out to assasinate me. I hope that he gets a fair trial by jury and gets to air every bit of LAPD's dirty laundry. And IF he really did the stuff LAPD claims, I hope he gets the chair. If not, I hope a bunch of LAPD officers go to jail. (actually, I hope that either way)

Funny how my comment satirically calling to drone him gets deleted, and now we have people that actually want to drone him proving my point...

He's apparently hiding in an area that is far out of LAPD's jurisdiction, and there are many ways to surrender without being "assassinated". All he has to do is walk into some newspaper or TV station, amongst others, but he is not doing that. Clearly he is evading capture.

I would also prefer that he be captured and tried before he's sent to the chair, and if LAPD has dirt that needs to be cleaned up, then so be it.

But the fact remains that he has killed police officers and innocent persons, has threatened the lives of more persons and has led to the deaths of innocent persons. How many more innocent persons are to be at risk if he is allowed to remain at large if they actually do have the capability to end his flight with a sniper's bullet or a drone, but choose not to do so due to potential negative press or potential negative public perceptions?

Those are not facts, those are allegations. Who made those allegations?


So, it is Dorner's fault the LAPD is out shooting up neighborhoods and innocent civilians? That seems to be the MSM's narrative, but I don't buy that at all.

Finally they cover this incident... Wonder if it will be mentioned in national coverage.

Two police officers killed at an intersection and a written "manifesto" by Dorner stating that he will kill LAPD officers are facts.
It originally is Dorner's fault that the incidents began in the first place, however the shooting of innocent civilians is the fault of the individual officers if it is determined that they acted improperly.

Fact: two dead cops

Allegation: cops were killed by Dorner

Allegation: Dorner authored and posted the Facebook "manifesto"

The manifesto could just as easily been authored and posted by some IT geek in the LAPD basement.


Again, an allegation not a fact.

No, it is their fault period.

You are a LEO currently?

Just out of curiosity, if there is a fat-person killer on the loose, and people know he drives a silver Prius, does that give fat people a blank check to open fire on every crappy hybrid vehicle out there?

This I have a problem with. Primarily this is due to the military intervention into a policing matter. The other is with the potential for collateral damage this has, and has had overseas. We should not tolerate drone strikes on US soil at all, and especially not on US citizens in populous areas.

I'm not opposed to this man facing trial, although I seriously doubt that will ever occur. No matter what, he will in all likelihood either be shot up Bonnie and Clyde style or blown up by a drone.

After seeing the progression of civil liberties incursion over the last 20 years, it's time for people to start waking up to what is happening. From Waco and Ruby Ridge, to indefinite detention and warrantless wiretaps/drone strikes on foreign combatants and now into indefinite detention w/o oversight and warrantless wiretaps on US citizens... To now allowing for drone strikes on US Citizens w/o trial.

Seriously, WTF.

Since they are just opening fire on people like this, maybe Dorner was right about them. They are an undisciplined gang who will abuse the citizenry at their discretion and stand behind the thin, blue line.
Dorner makes them prove his point.

If one man can cause this much havoc, one wonders...

Also,

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/386...l1t1qfvy6h.jpg

That is fantastic! :rofl2:

Exactly something Dorner would wear, they should probably shoot him just in case. :whee:

This guy puts the risk in BRISK.

Way too fishy. I smell corruption.

http://www.scpr.org/news/2013/02/...ue-dorner/

Live video feed of the standoff. Beginning of the end.

Best news I've heard all day.

:thumbup:

They don't need a drone anymore - solves that problem.

If he refuses to surrender, take him out with a sniper when they get the chance.

It was very inappropriate the way the news stations here are covering this. I was listening live at 1:25PM and could hear the gunfire over the air (which wasn't disturbing) but heard the law enforcement officers yelling multiple obscenities at the reporter over the air. The station didn't even bother to stop it, they just let it keep playing so I turned off the radio.

They probably wont be able to snipe him - he has sniper training after all. He's running smoke grenades and was trying to flank them outside the cabin. They're probably going to get "The Bull" and run the wall in and hope they don't hurt the hostages.

A few years ago a man was holding a baby hostage. The police filled the baby full of bullet holes, killing the suspect (and the baby too).

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-708355.html

Take him out...

You can bet they will. This will be an extrajudicial killing of an LAPD whistleblower.


tear gas was fired into the house before the fire broke out. [cbslocal.com]

The government and their incendiary "teargas" again. MOVE, Waco, and now Big Bear...

You have a suggestion for an alternative solution to the current situation?


Don't forget Whidbey Island...

Robert Mathews, who died inside the cabin after agents accidentally started it on fire. [whidbeynewstimes.com]
I hadn't heard about that until now. Interesting how often agents "accidentally" start fires.

That's the one. The Big Bear incident reminded me of that one as it was going down.

The End, finally!

Snipet from MSNBC

"A charred body identified by a source as the corpse of former LAPD cop Christopher Dorner was found Tuesday night in the torched mountainside cabin where he had barricaded himself after killing one sheriff’s deputy and wounding a second in a gun battle.
The source, from Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa's office, told NBC News that the LAPD had confirmed to the mayor that the body found in the cabin is Dorner's"

Southern California residents can feel slightly safer now that police will be slightly less trigger happy.

The End?

Scratch that, now they [CNN] are reporting that,

"[Updated at 11:13 p.m. ET] Los Angeles police are now contradicting media reports that a body was found in the cabin.

No body has been found in the cabin, a Los Angeles Police Department spokesman told reporters moments ago. The cabin is still burning and is too hot to search, he said."

CNN is reporting that the LAPD is not confirming that a body was removed.
In fact, they are saying that the couldn't even go in to retrieve a body, because the fire is still going strong.

MSNBC snuck in and checked... They do tons of fact finding.

The government is still working on coordinating the official lie with the MSM.

Quick everyone, get your tin-foil hats ready.... :whee:

Wow, it seems that the Cops are the ones who started the fire. Here's the released Cop Scanner audio from the LAPD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feat...CdqybEfy9w

Listen in at 1:05 - "We're gonna go forward with the plan, with the burn"
Then at 1:26 - "Burners Deployed, we have a fire"

It seems that the LAPD wanted to either torch down the cabin to force Dorner out or trap and kill him in the blaze (their intentions aren't made clear in the scanner recording). As the fire started burning, Dorner, instead of trying to escape, killed himself (the police said there was one shot fired from within the cabin at 3:05) as he realized that it was now over.

Wow. I had actually lived on Whidbey Island in the 90's, and had friends in law enforcement there. I never once heard this mentioned, not even when Waco was going down.

LAPD?

Why would LAPD be making decisions of what occurred in San Bernadino County?

Even if they are I'm fine with that. The guy had an option to come out, hell that on top of his MANY other options to turn himself in and not shoot any more cops or harm any more civilians.

This guy clearly knew how to defend himself. I'd much rather no more people be hurt and while that includes him at the same time he chose to barricade himself inside the house and again chose to not come out.

The guy was clearly a little bit wrong in the head. If he supposedly had all these things to say about the LAPD and went to such extreme measures to make them known why in the heck would he just kill himself? Because he thought the cops would have killed him if he walked out? Even if they did the end result is the same as it is now, actually what he did gives less credence to his claim that he has this info that we must all know. If I was a sane person and had all the info in his situation I would have actually wanted to be caught so that some high profile attorney can get it out in the open. He's known nationally now and had a stage to present his evidence but in the end he decided to kill himself. If he truly did have some damaging info him killing himself was the worst thing he could have possibly done at that point.

When you're butt-hurt, it's hard to think straight.

The idea that the cops have incendiary grenades is pretty messed up (even if they have other uses), and the idea that they've been recorded as saying what the said, is equally so.


Does CA still have the death penalty?

To my knowledge yes although it raaaaarely gets used and is on a hiatus right now because of a problem with the lethal injection method.

Yep.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/201...90260.html

The state has executed just 13 convicts, and its death row has ballooned to 726 inmates since 71 percent of the electorate voted to reinstate capital punishment in 1978. No executions have taken place since 2006 because of federal and state lawsuits filed by death row inmates.


Also in the article is this. How can keeping someone in prison for life be cheaper than killing them? If that's accurate all I can say is they're doing it wrong...

The Legislative Analyst has said ending the death penalty would save the state $130 million annually.

There was a rumor/report at one point that said someone had tried to exit the cabin but was forced back inside. I don't know the validity of that but I heard it stated multiple times.

He was definitely off in the head, no excuse for what he did. I was hoping that he was going to turn himself in to a news agency or something; since he obviously thought the cops were going to kill him. Well, they essentially did by purposely setting the place on fire.

Hard to say what "force" was used when dealing with adjectives a news company will use. Perhaps it was just the fact he was surrounded that caused him to retreat back into the house rather then some explicit force used.

Those things have been around for years.....

Still pretty messed up that they would use them to start a fire.

Tear gas grenades are almost all pyrotechnic in operation. The ones that aren't are all but ineffective in comparison. I'm guessing the reference to "burners" is to those types of devices being deployed. Using that type of grenade on a wood cabin was pretty dangerous, but compared to trading rifle shots with a heavily armed individual, I think it's the lesser of two evils.

Dorner could have come out before the fire took hold. He obviously made the choice that he wasn't going to be taken alive, and I'm guessing that the theory he capped himself is correct..

Reporters "opinions" of what happened during incidents like this, are notoriously incorrect.

Perhaps he tried to exit armed, and was "forced back in" by gunfire. There was a dead sheriff's deputy laying there Dorner had just killed, along with wounding another, and his other victims. If he didn't try to come out clearly surrendering, no one in their right mind wouldn't have shot at him.

Unless he's convinced that the cops are corrupt and he will never get a fair hearing.

Which is not that farfetched. Ever see "An Innocent Man"? Granted, that was about the Long Beach PD, but LA has a similar rep.

Do you realize that "An Innocent Man" was fiction - a movie - not real - a fantasy?

You disparage the entire Long Beach PD and LAPD based on a fictional movie? :vomit:

Do you base all of your opinions on fiction, fantasies and movies? Explains a lot..... :scratch:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_I...%28film%29

I do wonder about that.

If he did attempt to come out (unarmed) would they have shot him? Possible either way. Police could say he was armed and shot him, or they could have let him surrender.

The way they shot up that pickup (with the 2 ladies) + dead deputy, makes me think they (police) would be heavy on the trigger.

He was never going to be captured alive. Before he killed anyone, he decided to commit suicide. At that point, nobody and nothing mattered. He was a dead man walking.

Torching the cabin seems like a reasonable option as the officers already suffered a fatality and was a risk to everyone on the scene and an obvious threat.

That said... I doubt that he would have lived to see a court even if he surrendered. He would likely have been shot, or beat to death. There are reasons why the police wanted the helicopters further away other than officer safety.

You Betcha there were reasons. They didn't want the news "reporters" to be broadcasting their every move to Dorner on live TV from the air, exposing their every movement so they could be fired upon. Additionally, the helicopters would be potential targets.

that was the "officer safety" part of my statement. The helicopters and anyone with a truck were at more risk from the police than the suspect.

:rolleyes:

Dorner's could have killed the maids and probably would have made a clean getaway. He could have killed or kidnapped the guy he carjacked after crashing the maids purple Nissan. But again he didn't. He even waited to let the guy get his dog from the truck.

I'm not sold on Dorner being a crazed bloodthirsty killer. It is clear the LAPD badly wanted him dead. They got their wish. They would have found a reason for Dorner to end up dead even if he surrendered - suicide by cop or a suspicious jailhouse hanging.

I will reserve judgement intil the facts are in.

He killed the daughter of his ex-captain and her fiance.

Doesn't this mean to reserve all judgement?

And we know this how? Because the LAPD said so? Because of the facebook manifesto attributed to Dorner? By the LAPD?

You're right, how do we know he killed anyone. If you believe he killed anybody, don't you think it's also possible he killed them? Or is it all a coincidence?

Doobie-doobie-doo [youtube.com]

As far as the people killed in cold blood, I am unconvinced either way. Could have been Dorner. Could have been LAPD cleaning up an internal mess. Could be an unfortunate set of coincidences.

As far as the officers killed in Big Bear, is it clear they were shot by Dorner? Accidental blue on blue shootings would not surprise me given how trigger happy the police seem to be.

Do you watch the same movies 124nic8 does?.....

http://slickdeals.net/forums/show...tcount=117

I'm sure he killed all 4 people that he is credited for killing, assuming the provided information is correct. They fit the demographics of his targets. He didn't intend on killing random civilians.

He didn't hurt anyone outside of his demographics. Now if a civilian became a threat, he might attack them.

Police shot at 4 people, put 2 people in the hospital, and destroyed at least civilian 5 vehicles in the hunt for Dorner. The police were a bigger threat to us than Dorner.

Except that "fiction" was based on an historical event that happened in Long Beach a couple of years earlier. I lived there at the time and remember it well.

I disparage the LBPD and the LAPD based on their well earned reps.

Though the LAPD's rep has improved markedly from atrocious.

Another reason to kill Dorner? [cbsnews.com]

It saved the LAPD over $1M

What "historical event"?

I have no expectation that you would do otherwise...