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Champion Power Dual Fuel Generator 7000W $549.99

$549.99
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https://m.costco.com/Champion-Pow...47350.html

$549.99 After $150 OFF

$150 manufacturer's savings** is valid 6/1/18 through 6/24/18. While supplies last. Limit 10 per member.

Shipping & Handling: $99.99*

Features:
Runs on LP Gas or Gasoline
8.5 Gallon Fuel Tank
Electric or Pull Start
Low Oil Shut Off Sensor

This is my first post. Just trying to spread the love. I used the $60 groupon to get my costco membership. Ended up spending $550 + $100 for shipping + 60 for the membership = $710 for the generator is still a solid deal for a 7000W generator from a dependable brand.
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Created 06-06-2018 at 05:53 PM by richardm305
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#2
i have the previous gas only version of this (Also purchased from costco). it is a real beast of a portable generator and will handle all but the highest amp draw appliances.
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#3
Repost from earlier
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#4
This appears to be a revised model. Anyone know if it's still low THD like the previous Costco exclusive version of this?
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#5
Quote from danjayh
:
This appears to be a revised model. Anyone know if it's still low THD like the previous Costco exclusive version of this?
What's makes you say its a revised model? It looks the same.

Two main points for this :
Very loud
It's very powerful, can run a whole house in many cases
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Last edited by huge June 7, 2018 at 08:35 PM.
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#6
Quote from huge
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What's makes you say its a revised model? It looks the same.

Two main points for this :
Very loud
It's very powerful, can run a whole house in many cases
This is the third revision of this generator. Previously, it had been made in a costco-specific version with a low THD alternator (good for home backup), and an 'everyone else' version that didn't have a low THD alternator (bad for home backup). I have the first revision -- it's a great generator. Unbeatable for the price (dual fuel, wheel kit, electric start, and low THD with a battery included!).

As far as appearance is concerned, this is what the first iteration looked like: https://video.costco.com/v/187346...ric-start/

Basically the only difference between the first and the second generation (which is what they sold until recently) was the addition of outlet covers. The third generation appears to move the propane input to the side. Just looking at the pictures, it looks like it was a terrible idea, because it looks to obstruct access to the recoil (but maybe it's not as bad in person).

Regardless of that, if it's still low THD it's still the best generator you can get for the money.
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Last edited by danjayh June 7, 2018 at 09:29 PM.
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#7
On the Champion site it says THD is less than 15% in the Question/Answer area. So this is not <5% THD as the previous version of this generator. That is too bad. I have the old version and it was a very unusual combination of high power, dual fuel (which I adapted to NG, so effectively triple fuel), 240V, and electric start. My only complaint so far with the old version was its loud. This newer version has the same claimed DB, so it will be loud as well.
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#8
Quote from kdahl
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On the Champion site it says THD is less than 15% in the Question/Answer area. So this is not <5% THD as the previous version of this generator. That is too bad. I have the old version and it was a very unusual combination of high power, dual fuel (which I adapted to NG, so effectively triple fuel), 240V, and electric start. My only complaint so far with the old version was its loud. This newer version has the same claimed DB, so it will be loud as well.
That sucks. Also sucks that the Champion rep is peddling 15% THD as good enough for home backup. I had a Smarter Tools, which is of similar quality to Sportsman, DuroMax, DuroStar, etc. and probably around 15-20% THD (that was before I bought a power quality meter ... guesstimating from an oscilloscope trace). It was decidedly NOT good enough, and nearly fried my well pump due to the controller not disengaging the startup winding (which I noticed only because I had a load meter on my generator inlet, and the well pump was drawing 2x what it should have).

I added my thoughts to his reply:

"While the verified reply is correct, you should realize that the THD of normal power from the power company is < 3%, and more typically in the 1-2% range. 15% is high enough that it can begin to have negative affects on some household devices - especially things like furnaces, fridges, well controllers, etc. Counter intuitively, computers, TVs, and the like are usually very tolerant of high THD because they convert their input to DC first, and don't have any electronics that rely on the shape of the incoming voltage waveform. On the other hand, power electronics in some of the devices that I mentioned often do rely on it for things like timing, controlling motor start windings, etc. It is very sad that they've gone to a lower cost alternator on the new model, and if you intend to use your for whole-hose backup, I recommend that you do not even consider any model that isn't spec'd at < 5% THD. As a side note, noisy loads will also drive up THD. For instance, I have the discontinued 5% THD version of this (which is *awesome*, by the way), and when running a household full of CFLs, LEDs, and switching power supplies (PCs, TVs, etc.) the THD creeps up to around 10% (which is expected - NO small generator will carry demanding loads like that without an increase in THD). With this new model, the THD will be far into the unacceptable range when powering challenging, non-linear loads."
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#9
Quote from kdahl
:
On the Champion site it says THD is less than 15% in the Question/Answer area. So this is not <5% THD as the previous version of this generator. That is too bad. I have the old version and it was a very unusual combination of high power, dual fuel (which I adapted to NG, so effectively triple fuel), 240V, and electric start. My only complaint so far with the old version was its loud. This newer version has the same claimed DB, so it will be loud as well.
I purchased this and have an accessable external NG connection, how did you adapt it to use NG? Did you find a replacement orfice similar to what you do for a NG grill conversion? Did you see any performance issues?

Is this what you used? https://centuryfuelproducts.com/champion-100155-df
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Last edited by DMBrunner June 9, 2018 at 01:44 AM.
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#10
For awareness, you may want to check local Costco's instead of purchasing it online. I purchased the 100155 model two weeks ago for the same price and no shipping. Given the change to the THD spec I'm even more happy that I jumped on the deal.
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#11
Quote from EdwardA4013
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I purchased this and have an accessable external NG connection, how did you adapt it to use NG? Did you find a replacement orfice similar to what you do for a NG grill conversion? Did you see any performance issues?

Is this what you used? https://centuryfuelproducts.com/c...-100155-df
I am in no way an expert on this. But I'll describe three approaches. (1) centuryfuelproducts or motorsnorkel [motorsnorkel.com] (2) I did the following approach. Since unit is dual fuel, the carburetor is already jetted for propane. A hose connects to a fitting on the carburetor that normally brings in propane/air mixture. I disconnected that hose and added a hose that went to an externally mounted Garretson Style Regulator, which in turn is connected to your natural gas line. (3) Another user on this forum said he just connected his NG line to the propane fitting on the generator.

Notes on (2)
I've tested this up to 5000 watts with no problems. The propane continuous watts is 6300 watts. The carburetor is jetted for Propane, not NG. NG has less density, less power. So maybe I'm not using all the potential power of the generator, but 5000 watts is plenty for me, and in any case, I like not running at the upper limit for long term reliability.

I can easily switch to gas if I lost NG for some reason. I can switch to propane by switching the hoses back to the original configuration, ~5 minutes.

The regulator is easy to buy, but you also should get a "load block" on top of the regular to control the flow/mixture. These are harder to find but I did finally find one on amazon. The total cost of (2) is roughly $110, and the generator stays very close to stock configuration (unlike (1) above). On the other hand you have to find the parts and figure out some things on your own. For example, make sure you have a good supply of NG getting to the carburetor (e.g. buy a large supply hose to the regulator, minimize any constrictions between regulator and carburetor, etc.)

Notes on (3)
The user said he thought he was getting full power. I personally find this hard to believe since the propane hose has only a 3/8 inch opening, but I did not test this myself.
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#12
Quote from kdahl
:
I am in no way an expert on this. But I'll describe three approaches. (1) centuryfuelproducts or motorsnorkel [motorsnorkel.com] (2) I did the following approach. Since unit is dual fuel, the carburetor is already jetted for propane. A hose connects to a fitting on the carburetor that normally brings in propane/air mixture. I disconnected that hose and added a hose that went to an externally mounted Garretson Style Regulator, which in turn is connected to your natural gas line. (3) Another user on this forum said he just connected his NG line to the propane fitting on the generator.

Notes on (2)
I've tested this up to 5000 watts with no problems. The propane continuous watts is 6300 watts. The carburetor is jetted for Propane, not NG. NG has less density, less power. So maybe I'm not using all the potential power of the generator, but 5000 watts is plenty for me, and in any case, I like not running at the upper limit for long term reliability.

I can easily switch to gas if I lost NG for some reason. I can switch to propane by switching the hoses back to the original configuration, ~5 minutes.

The regulator is easy to buy, but you also should get a "load block" on top of the regular to control the flow/mixture. These are harder to find but I did finally find one on amazon. The total cost of (2) is roughly $110, and the generator stays very close to stock configuration (unlike (1) above). On the other hand you have to find the parts and figure out some things on your own. For example, make sure you have a good supply of NG getting to the carburetor (e.g. buy a large supply hose to the regulator, minimize any constrictions between regulator and carburetor, etc.)

Notes on (3)
The user said he thought he was getting full power. I personally find this hard to believe since the propane hose has only a 3/8 inch opening, but I did not test this myself.
FYI, I'm pretty sure that the motor is more than capable of driving the full load even on lpg. I've accidentally had mine up to 7500+ watts on lpg, held it fine. Probably helps that I'm only 600' above sea level.
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#13

Quote :
Quote :
danjayh FYI, I'm pretty sure that the motor is more than capable of driving the full load even on lpg. I've accidentally had mine up to 7500+ watts on lpg, held it fine. Probably helps that I'm only 600' above sea level.
​Good to know that it is probably under rated even with propane. Often it seems like the marketing claims grossly overrate the capacity. To be clear, when I said that I found it hard to believe that another user was getting full power, I meant that he was connecting his NG line directly to the existing propane connection on the generator. This is only a 3/8 inch opening, and he has no ability to change/optimize the fuel mixture for NG (which is preset for propane). I thought about testing this myself, it would be incredibly convenient, but I was worried that the fuel mixture would be all wrong, and that it would not be able to reach full power.
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#14
Quote from danjayh
:
That sucks. Also sucks that the Champion rep is peddling 15% THD as good enough for home backup. I had a Smarter Tools, which is of similar quality to Sportsman, DuroMax, DuroStar, etc. and probably around 15-20% THD (that was before I bought a power quality meter ... guesstimating from an oscilloscope trace). It was decidedly NOT good enough, and nearly fried my well pump due to the controller not disengaging the startup winding (which I noticed only because I had a load meter on my generator inlet, and the well pump was drawing 2x what it should have).

I added my thoughts to his reply:

"While the verified reply is correct, you should realize that the THD of normal power from the power company is < 3%, and more typically in the 1-2% range. 15% is high enough that it can begin to have negative affects on some household devices - especially things like furnaces, fridges, well controllers, etc. Counter intuitively, computers, TVs, and the like are usually very tolerant of high THD because they convert their input to DC first, and don't have any electronics that rely on the shape of the incoming voltage waveform. On the other hand, power electronics in some of the devices that I mentioned often do rely on it for things like timing, controlling motor start windings, etc. It is very sad that they've gone to a lower cost alternator on the new model, and if you intend to use your for whole-hose backup, I recommend that you do not even consider any model that isn't spec'd at < 5% THD. As a side note, noisy loads will also drive up THD. For instance, I have the discontinued 5% THD version of this (which is *awesome*, by the way), and when running a household full of CFLs, LEDs, and switching power supplies (PCs, TVs, etc.) the THD creeps up to around 10% (which is expected - NO small generator will carry demanding loads like that without an increase in THD). With this new model, the THD will be far into the unacceptable range when powering challenging, non-linear loads."
Full disclosure, I am a power engineer(electrical engineer who works in the power industry). This is really confusing. THD is a very poor way to describe this type of power quality. THD describes the shape of the waveform. Most of the time, we use it to describe how well a generator will handle a badly behaving load. We don't use it to describe poor-quality sources very often.

In fact, due to the increasing number of solar inverters, we are starting to use a new term to describe power quality of sources, but I won't get into it.

THD is Total Harmonic Distortion. It can describe voltage waveform or current waveform. We are generally talking about voltage, as that is all that matters. IEEE 519 sets a limit of 8% for utility voltage THD. Your agreement with the utility company says they must meet IEEE 519, so I don't know where you are getting "5%".

Every equipment manufacturer built their equipment to survive IEEE 519 standards, so....

The confusing thing with all of this is that sources aren't normally rated in THD. If I put a horrible load on even the best generator, it will distort the waveform. In industrial facilities, we model all of this stuff beforehand. We model harmonics on utility and on generator and make sure they don't exceed recommendations.
Industrial generators won't create any harmonics unloaded, but some of these cheap generators are a mess. It is absurd. Honestly, I don't even know how it hasn't been a problem. Maybe you all should just buy real generators?
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#15
Quote from PuckS9852
:
Full disclosure, I am a power engineer(electrical engineer who works in the power industry). This is really confusing. THD is a very poor way to describe this type of power quality. THD describes the shape of the waveform. Most of the time, we use it to describe how well a generator will handle a badly behaving load. We don't use it to describe poor-quality sources very often.

In fact, due to the increasing number of solar inverters, we are starting to use a new term to describe power quality of sources, but I won't get into it.

THD is Total Harmonic Distortion. It can describe voltage waveform or current waveform. We are generally talking about voltage, as that is all that matters. IEEE 519 sets a limit of 8% for utility voltage THD. Your agreement with the utility company says they must meet IEEE 519, so I don't know where you are getting "5%".

Every equipment manufacturer built their equipment to survive IEEE 519 standards, so....

The confusing thing with all of this is that sources aren't normally rated in THD. If I put a horrible load on even the best generator, it will distort the waveform. In industrial facilities, we model all of this stuff beforehand. We model harmonics on utility and on generator and make sure they don't exceed recommendations.
Industrial generators won't create any harmonics unloaded, but some of these cheap generators are a mess. It is absurd. Honestly, I don't even know how it hasn't been a problem. Maybe you all should just buy real generators?
I wasn't talking about required THD from the power company, but typical. Maybe it's different in other areas, but in residential systems in our state real-world THD is well below 8%. Anyway, portable generator THD is usually rated with a resistive load. The bad ones are making these crazy crappy waveforms even when they're not powering a nonlinear load .. and as you mentioned, even a good portable generator will let harmonics creep in if you load it with something challenging like a bunch of CFLs. Inverter generators tend to do better with loads like that because they have lower source impedance.

W/ regard to the 'other term' -- are you referring to TDD? While it is a useful metric, it's probably not as valuable in a market where most manufacturers don't bother to produce equipment that can provide a clean waveform even under no load or a completely linear load Smilie. We'd be lightyears ahead if they'd even give no-load voltage THD ratings - most portable generator manufacturers cant or wont, even the higher end ones. I had a generator a few years back that was so bad that the output looked like a shark fin (pic - https://images-na.ssl-images-amaz...L1600_.jpg ). Was before I had a power quality analyzer, but I'm sure the numbers would have been horrible.
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Last edited by danjayh July 31, 2018 at 11:51 PM.
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