expiredTnnyynn posted Feb 04, 2025 01:43 AM
Item 1 of 2
Item 1 of 2
expiredTnnyynn posted Feb 04, 2025 01:43 AM
Rheem ProTerra 50 Gal. Hybrid Heat Pump Smart Electric Water Heater
& More + Free Ship to Store$1,487
$1,859
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Federal requirements for resistance water heater production was changed several years ago making any water heater over 55 gallons required to be a hybrid. Some older units have not sold, we even found a couple of old marathons a couple years ago. Both failed after 3 years, rheem rep stated something to do with the units being over 10 years old with the plastic being submitted to freezing temperatures in the warehouse. Luckily for the customer we covered handled all the warranty, Rheem initially said warranty was off the manufacturer date, but when we pushed back they offered a standard tank and we ate the warranty. There was also an exception for light duty commercial units which some plumbers have put in residential settings.
Longevity and reliablity are interesting. There are multiple tiers of HPWHs, such as the tier 1 geosprings from back in the day, to the new tier 4 units like the ProTerra. Higher tier units have a lower sound rating while running, and a sealed compressor. The failure rate is so much lower on the sealed units they just swap out the whole heater if it fails within the 10 year warranty that HPWHs have. In the tier 1 days, the moving parts of the HPWHs with their brand new tech made them louder and fail fairly often. The new units have been alright, still some failures as mentioned in the thread.
A big but here, the standard resistance water heaters have changed alot lately. They have cheaped out on the elements. We continue to see the element corrode fairly quickly even with only mild water quality issues. When the element does this, it grounds out, and the water heater runs in a semi simultaneous mode, with the top element pulling its 240 volts when it calls for heat, and the bottom element constantly pulling 120 grounding through the heater. Best case scenario with these have been the high limit switch popping if the heater is not used much. If the heater is used, the water never gets to 150 degrees. Several heaters have caught on fire, due to the manufacturers cheaping out using 12 gauge wire in the water heater while most homes, at least in my area, have 10 gauge house wire with a 30-amp circuit. The current of both elements running exceeds the ampacity of the 12 gauge wire, and over time, the insulation cooks where the two legs are next to each other in the top connection junction box.
I've seen this multiple times, with multiple brands, I've used a clamp meter to show my guys, and the reps what is happening, because before they blamed it on the house electrical, and the electrician blamed it on poor connections in the box.
We've starting doing yearly inspections on water heaters and look for water being too hot, or see wear or black marks on the wires in the junction box. So far the fires have been contained inside these junction boxes.
Also on reliability, the new resistance water heaters are being required to have control panels now, to allow the future control of your heater by the power company. In the last month, 7 of our Bradford White heaters have failed due to the control panels. We've had to take panels out of new units as replacements are not available from BW yet. So problems with units are not isolated to HPWHs.
Cost savings on a hybrid HPWH is up to 70%. Depending on power cost, that adds up to a bit. Portland General Electric is charging 20.89 cents per KWH. Average family of 4 in our area will save over $7,000 after 10 years. This math takes into account the increased cost of the HPWH and installation, as well as local and federal rebates/credits. Savings will be less depending on where you live. But even our Washington folks with 8 cents per KWH save over $3,000.
Ducting and cold: In a properly sized room, it does cool it a bit. Your HVAC system works harder in the winter, and works less in the summer. You can set the units to run in resistance in the winter, if you like, but I agree your whole house heater is more efficient than a resistance water heater on average. For this reason we generally do not duct outside, as that takes away the customers option to get the free cooling in the summer. Also, a HPWH runs with resistance only below around 41 degrees, so it's not like they are saving by ducting to the outside anyway.
But if a room is to small, we will run 2x 5" ducts out. One to pull air in, and one to exhaust cold air back out. This makes the unit run similar to a direct vent gas water heater, and it does not affect the house thermal envelope at all. Again, with this no summer savings on house cooling, and the HPWH is running resistance all winter up here, even where it is colder, we like to pull from the inside.
Others will have different opinions, but i figured I'd give feedback from a plumber who actually deals with them. **Cue old school plumber who hates anything new like HPWHs, but installs CPVC pipe because it's cheap
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If you're in a cooling climate where your A/C runs for 8+ months, a HPWH like this starts to make a lot of sense.
Edit Feb 10, 2025: I did some math for my situation, and believe a HPWH might save in the ballpark of about ~$5/mo on your A/C bills during cooling months and add ~$5/mo to your heat bills (depending on your heat source). However, having the HPWH will save you about 200kWh/mo on electricity, which is about $25/mo (ranges from $12-$50+). Of course all of these things scale with your hot water usage and energy costs.
The installers called Rheem and apparently there were a lot of units sent out with poorly programmed control panels. So a new one was on the way.
I asked and the installer said there would be another charge if I wanted them to install it. I work electronics, so I was confident that I could install whatever came in. Around two weeks later the control panel arrived. No instructions, but a YouTube video later and it didn't look complicated.
Long story short. You may get a faulty unit. Call and get a new control panel shipped to you (no way to flash them apparently). The install of the new board is just connectors and blade contacts. Take a picture before and plug everything in where it needs to go. This wouldn't prevent me from buying again.
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The installers called Rheem and apparently there were a lot of units sent out with poorly programmed control panels. So a new one was on the way.
I asked and the installer said there would be another charge if I wanted them to install it. I work electronics, so I was confident that I could install whatever came in. Around two weeks later the control panel arrived. No instructions, but a YouTube video later and it didn't look complicated.
Long story short. You may get a faulty unit. Call and get a new control panel shipped to you (no way to flash them apparently). The install of the new board is just connectors and blade contacts. Take a picture before and plug everything in where it needs to go. This wouldn't prevent me from buying again.
Also idk if anyone else has this issue but it takes a while to get warm water all times of the year...
It does seem to save energy though and is efficient. It's a bit loud but not an issue yet as I am not near it
It's also good for anyone with solar that is on an NEM program that is not 1:1 and/or has batteries. Program it to primarily run when the sun is out and the heat pump is less stressful on the batteries.
Because of what's done with what's being cooled/heated.
In the case of the hot water heater, you're heating up water that eventually goes down the drain. Very little of that heat makes it into the house unless it's sitting in your sink or bathtub until it reaches ambient temperature.
In the case of the dryer, the cold side coil is being used as a dehumidifier to remove moisture from the air. That dehumidified and cold air is passed over the hot side coil to warm it up before it gets sent into the drum to pick up moisture from the clothes, which is then passed back to the cold side coil, repeating the process. This closed loop means no heat is removed from the system. And as said, the compressor that makes this all work adds heat, so the overall effect is heat being added to the room.
Compared to gas, it depends on the cost of electricity and gas in the area. For us, due to high electric rates and low natural gas rates, it's basically a wash with the gas water heater having a much lower initial cost (incentives can cancel most of the cost difference). 100% it's cheaper to operate than electric resistance heaters.
Also idk if anyone else has this issue but it takes a while to get warm water all times of the year...
It does seem to save energy though and is efficient. It's a bit loud but not an issue yet as I am not near it
I understand your concern about additional cooling in the winter months while trying to enjoy the basement. Perhaps a two way vent mechanism exists when you can have your cake and eat it too. Vent to the outside during the cold of winter and let it vent to the basement the warmer times of the year? Doesn't sound like rocket science.
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Compared to gas, it depends on the cost of electricity and gas in the area. For us, due to high electric rates and low natural gas rates, it's basically a wash with the gas water heater having a much lower initial cost (incentives can cancel most of the cost difference). 100% it's cheaper to operate than electric resistance heaters.
I actually own two homes and replaced water heaters in both. Like you, I benefit from very low natural gas prices. Way lower than nearly every state. But I still pay more for the gas fired unit vs the electric hybrid. And my electric utility company screws its customers with nonstop price hikes that our public service commission rubber stamps. I'm just glad that our furnace is gas also and they seem to last longer. Literally had the HVAC repairman out today to fix our 19 year old unit. During that time, he's been to the house once and that was for an air conditioning condenser.
I did battle with the discharge temp error. Rheem sent out new thermosisters and I replaced them. I put metal cabinets in my garage about ~3ft from the water heater and it messed with the discharge temp. First thing Rheem asked was what was around the heater, I told them a metal cabinet. They told me to put some foam on the outside or buy some overpriced discharge pipe (he said you can get it cheaper at big box stores). It solved my issue with the foam on the side of the cabinet. Great support
Also be aware that these things cannot be completely enclosed in a small closet. They need an air intake or at least be in a 10x10 space. I ended up just leaving my water heater closer door open.
Thanks
If you're in a cooling climate where your A/C runs for 8+ months, a HPWH like this starts to make a lot of sense.
Obviously, if you're between this and a gas unit, and gas is cheap, you have some math to do. But to assert that this isn't better than a resistive electric unit during a cold winter is just inaccurate, unless you've got your water heater outside or something wild. You absolutely will save on energy throughout the year over a resistive unit.
We have ours set to eco mode and the resistive unit never comes on for heat. If we have visitors I'll take it off of eco just to be sure we don't run out of water. Three years and counting and we've more than saved the cost of the unit in energy at this point.
My local electric utility also offers a rebate for large capacity (85gal or 100gal) water heaters if you join the water heating load management program. They install a device where they control when the water heater can run. We have this in series with our water heater timer. If you enroll in this program, they give you a Marathon electric water heater for $600.
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