Forum Thread
The Wall Street Journal Discounts, Deals and Coupon Codes

Raids. "And then they came for me, but by then no one was left to speak up."

Deusxmachina 15,426 1,154 August 26, 2011 at 12:19 PM Get The Wall Street Journal Coupons
Lots of raids in the news. Some perhaps good. Some perhaps not so good.

Gibson Guitars raided for alleged illegal wood from India:
http://www.gibson.com/absolutenm/...0&zoneid=6
Quote :
The Justice department bullies Gibson without filing charges

The Federal Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department's interpretation of a law in India. (If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.)
--------------
In 2009, more than a dozen agents with automatic weapons invaded the Gibson factory in Nashville. The Government seized guitars and a substantial amount of ebony fingerboard blanks from Madagascar. To date, 1 year and 9 months later, criminal charges have NOT been filed, yet the Government still holds Gibson's property.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1...%3Darticle
Quote :
"The wood the government seized Wednesday is from a Forest Stewardship Council certified supplier," he said, suggesting the Feds are using the aggressive enforcement of overly broad laws to make the company cry uncle.

It isn't just Gibson that is sweating. Musicians who play vintage guitars and other instruments made of environmentally protected materials are worried the authorities may be coming for them next.
--------------------
There was never any question that the instruments were old enough to have grandfathered ivory keys. But Mr. Vieillard didn't have his paperwork straight when two-dozen federal agents came calling.

205 Comments

3 4 5 6 7

Sign up for a Slickdeals account to remove this ad.

This comment has been rated as unhelpful by Slickdeals users
#61
Quote from 124nic8 View Post :
It's apparent that your ideology interferes with your perception of the truth.

Bureaucracy CAN completely shut off supply at any price.

Plus, when the price goes up, people do switch to substitutes which is essentially reduces demand.

When I say demand, that is shorthand for quantity demanded: [about.com]



I did not refer to a demand curve.
You said demand, not quantity demanded. When you say demand changes, you are inherently talking about a change in preferences that shifts the demand curve. It you said quantity demanded then you would be right, but you did not.
Reply Helpful Comment? 0 0
This comment has been rated as unhelpful by Slickdeals users
Joined Aug 2008
Permanently Banned
23,118 Posts
462 Reputation
#62
Quote from darkfrog View Post :
You are officially busted-





You are so transparent. You got caught twice now misusing the term 'demand' and this is your answer....
??????


The ultimate equivocation, pretend you were talking about something else the whole time.
It would have been refreshing to hear you just admit you made a mistake but this just supports your reputation of intellectual dishonesty. I even offered you an out, that you were referring to consumption (something much closer to quantity demanded), yet you continued with your pretentiousness going as far as chiding another poster for trying to correct you AGAIN.
There's no shame in admiting you just didn't understand what I meant.

Most people would understand that a reduction in demand refers to a reduction in the quantity demanded.
Reply Helpful Comment? 0 0
This comment has been rated as unhelpful by Slickdeals users
#63
Quote from 124nic8 View Post :
There's no shame in admiting you just didn't understand what I meant.

Most people would understand that a reduction in demand refers to a reduction in the quantity demanded.
Actually you are wrong. A reduction (or contraction) in demand is a leftward shift in the demand curve. At each price level, less quantity is demanded than was before.

ETA: look at the wikipedia page for Demand reduction [wikipedia.org], which speaks specifically to demand reduction for illicit materials. What is being referred to is a change in tastes and preferences that at an axiomatic level shift the demand curve. What you are talking about is making the product more expensive by creating supply obstacles. Nothing about that would necessarily reduce demand. It is true that there would end up being less quantity demanded, but this is only because of an exogenous price change.

There is no shame in admitting you abuse economic notation.........
Reply Helpful Comment? 0 0
Last edited by theflintseeker September 7, 2011 at 12:32 AM.
This comment has been rated as unhelpful by Slickdeals users
#64
Quote from 124nic8 View Post :
There's no shame in admiting you just didn't understand what I meant.

Most people would understand that a reduction in demand refers to a reduction in the quantity demanded.
Stop it, just stop. You are wrong. You have been shown you are wrong. You are now trying to substitute terms that never applied. You can't save face anymore, quit digging yourself deeper.
Most people don't say reduction in demand when they mean reduction in consumption, as has been pointed out numerous times.

If I didn't understand what you meant it's because you are using a term that has an exact meaning, in a non-traditional way and expect people to figure it out on their own....



I feel like I'm trying to explain to a creationist that "theory" doesn't mean hunch.
Reply Helpful Comment? 0 0
Last edited by darkfrog September 7, 2011 at 01:22 AM.
Science is much more than a body of knowledge. It is a way of thinking. This is central to its success. Science invites us to let the facts in, even when they don't conform to our preconceptions.
~ Carl Sagan
This comment has been rated as unhelpful by Slickdeals users
Joined Aug 2008
Permanently Banned
23,118 Posts
462 Reputation
#65
Quote from darkfrog View Post :
Stop it, just stop. You are wrong. You have been shown you are wrong. You are now trying to substitute terms that never applied. You can't save face anymore, quit digging yourself deeper.
Most people don't say reduction in demand when they mean reduction in consumption, as has been pointed out numerous times.

If I didn't understand what you meant it's because you are using a term that has an exact meaning, in a non-traditional way and expect people to figure it out on their own....



I feel like I'm trying to explain to a creationist that "theory" doesn't mean hunch.
What do you think "reduction in demand" means"?
Reply Helpful Comment? 0 0
This comment has been rated as unhelpful by Slickdeals users
#66
Reply Helpful Comment? 0 0
Your potential can never exceed your expectations.
This comment has been rated as unhelpful by Slickdeals users
Joined Dec 2006
Sexual Assault Enabler
21,977 Posts
858 Reputation
#67
The Gibson Guitar story is as ridiculous as the Obama administration going after the Amish for selling unpasteurized milk. You'd have to be an idiot to buy milk from the Amish and not know it and/or willfully stupid.

http://www.reuters.com/article/20...PT20111012

It's a sad state of affairs that Obama and the DOJ with a very corrupt leader can go in and seize their equipment and screw up a company that Obama hasn't managed to take in his economy.

I don't even play guitars, but this is just another compelling reason a company should move operations overseas and fire its American manufacturing workforce. You would not have to put up with shit like this from the feds. Yet, Obama whines like a little baby that companies move jobs overseas.

This is not community activism, it's the real world.
Reply Helpful Comment? 0 0
2017 Recipient of The Podium's Lifetime Achievement Award

Sign up for a Slickdeals account to remove this ad.

This comment has been rated as unhelpful by Slickdeals users
Joined Oct 2007
2 tickets to the gun show
15,426 Posts
1,154 Reputation
Original Poster
#68
Gibson Guitars still faces no charges, months after raid
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=49715
Quote :
Gibson employees were told by the invading federal agents that they could be looking at up to five years of jail time for whatever the hell they were supposedly guilty of. (The agents in question, clad in body armor and lugging heavy weapons, were from the Fish and Wildlife Service.)

Juszkiewicz initially thought the raid might have been a mix-up due to improperly completed shipping documents, but later said his company was being deliberately targeted by the Obama Administration, which "wants us to just shut our doors and go away." Fun Fact #1: many of Gibson's competitors use the same kind of wood in their instruments, but none were assaulted by federal agents. Fun Fact #2: those competitors are not located in a right-to-work states, while Gibson headquarters is in Tennessee.

In fact, it has now been six months since the Great Gibson Guitar Raid… and even though Gibson's business was damaged, and half a million dollars' worth of property was confiscated, no charges have been filed at all.
Quote :
I'm reminded of a grim Russian joke I heard years ago:

Two men are being hauled to Siberia in a prisoner transport.

The first man asks, "How long is your sentence in the gulag?"
The second man replies, "Twenty years."

The first man asks, "And what was your crime?"
The second man says, "Nothing."

The first man becomes very angry and shouts, "LIAR! Everyone knows the penalty for nothing is only ten years!"
Reply Helpful Comment? 0 0
Morons react to Trump winning [youtu.be]
Larry Elder Dismantles The "Systemic Racism Argument" [youtube.com]

2/16/16 - "If it's Hillary vs. Trump, Trump landslide." - me!
7/25/16 - "Donald Trump wins in a landslide." - me again! Dance13

Citizens cheering the destruction of their country by "refugees":

Open Gates: The forced collective suicide of European nations [youtu.be]

"You are witnessing what will be shown to future generations as the reason for the fall of an Empire."
This comment has been rated as unhelpful by Slickdeals users
Joined Jan 2007
America First
15,269 Posts
2,100 Reputation
Pro
#69
This issue is disturbing to me as I own guitars made by Gibson, Martin, Fender, Taylor and other makers, and I play one or more of them every day. Most of my guitars contain the same or similar woods that are at the core of the issue.

The FSC-Watch organization suggests that Gibson was not totally innocent:

http://www.fsc-watch.org/archives...tars_fiasc

http://www.fsc-watch.org/archives...tars__wher

FSC information regarding the wood in question:

http://fscus.org/news/?article=718

http://fscus.org/news/?article=722

Gibson's position on the issue:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hen...71770.html

http://www.gibson.com/absolutenm/...0&zoneid=6

This incident definitely needs to be resolved in court. If Gibson is guilty of a violation of US law, then they should be held accountable. If USFWS and the DOJ is found to be wrong in their accusations, then the Gibson Co. should be awarded major damages. Unfortunately this will probably take a long time.
Reply Helpful Comment? 0 0
_____________________________________

God Bless America
This comment has been rated as unhelpful by Slickdeals users
Joined Oct 2007
2 tickets to the gun show
15,426 Posts
1,154 Reputation
Original Poster
#70
http://www.news9.com/story/171144...e-invasion
Quote :
According to court documents, around 3:30 a.m. on Sunday, March 4, four to six suspects kicked in the door of an apartment claiming to be police officers and DEA agents.

The suspects ordered the people inside the apartment to get on the ground while they bound their hands with zip ties. The suspects demanded money and guns.

The victims say the men were wearing black T-shirts with "DEA" and "OCPD" printed on them. They had their faces painted black and some were armed with what the victims believed to be real guns.
Reply Helpful Comment? 0 0
This comment has been rated as unhelpful by Slickdeals users
Joined Dec 2007
Opulence, I has it.
1,107 Posts
42 Reputation
#71
50/50 chance they were real cops Big Grin

ETA: If they shot the homeowner's dog I'd put it at 80/20.
Reply Helpful Comment? 0 0
  • "The lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." - Aldous Huxley
  • "Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." - Mohandas Gandhi, an Autobiography, page 446.
This comment has been rated as unhelpful by Slickdeals users
Joined Jan 2007
America First
15,269 Posts
2,100 Reputation
Pro
#72
Why the title "Who can you trust?"

Just because the perpetrators were wearing PD and DEA shirts?

The suspects were sleazebag criminals raiding other sleazebag criminals in a house apparently known for drugs...
Reply Helpful Comment? 0 0
This comment has been rated as unhelpful by Slickdeals users
Joined Oct 2007
2 tickets to the gun show
15,426 Posts
1,154 Reputation
Original Poster
#73
Quote from nobama View Post :
Why the title "Who can you trust?"

Just because the perpetrators were wearing PD and DEA shirts?
And announcing that they were the police, yes.
Reply Helpful Comment? 0 0
This comment has been rated as unhelpful by Slickdeals users
Joined Apr 2005
L7: Weenie
21,127 Posts
466 Reputation
#74
Quote from Deusxmachina View Post :
Who can you trust?
Apparently not criminals... what is this world coming to?
Reply Helpful Comment? 0 0

Sign up for a Slickdeals account to remove this ad.

This comment has been rated as unhelpful by Slickdeals users
Joined Oct 2007
2 tickets to the gun show
15,426 Posts
1,154 Reputation
Original Poster
#75
http://www.thedailychronic.net/20...uana-grow/
Quote :
OGDEN, UT — An Ogden, Utah, police officer was shot and killed and five others wounded, two in critical condition, in a drug raid on an Ogden home Wednesday night. The resident was also wounded and is in custody facing as yet unspecified charges. Although police aren't saying, it appears the target was a personal marijuana grow.

Twelve members of the strike force were attempting to serve a warrant when a gun battle erupted. Police said they were doing a "knock and enter" warrant, meaning they would knock on the door and enter if no one responded. When the entered the residence, they were met with gunfire.
http://www.thedailychronic.net/20...autionary/
Quote :
OGDEN, UT — Weber County Attorney Dee W. Smith will seek the death penalty for Matthew Stewart, the US Army veteran who fired at police January 5 when they entered his home to serve a search warrant for a suspected marijuana grow operation.

Smith confirmed that the warrant Ogden Police were attempting to serve on the night of January 5 was a search warrant, believing that Stewart was growing marijuana in his home. Smith said that it was not an arrest warrant.
Same unit doing a raid and killing a guy standing there with a golf club.
http://www.thedailychronic.net/20...2010-raid/
Quote :
OGDEN, UT — The same Weber-Morgan Narcotics Strike Force that was involved in a shootout with a US Army veteran last week, which led to the death of one police officer and the wounding of several others, was caught on video lethally shooting 45 year old Todd Blair in a similar raid on his home in September 2010.

The video, originally aired by the Salt Lake Tribune, shows police serving a "no-knock warrant", kicking in the front door yelling "Police! Search warrant!" Just seconds in, Blair is seen emerging from his bedroom, no doubt startled by the commotion and sudden intrusion in his home, holding a golf club above his head.

He is instantly fired upon by a police officer and drops to the ground. There is no calls from the officer to drop the weapon, just three gunshots, killing Blair. A search of the home turned up a small amount of marijuana.
Reply Helpful Comment? 0 0
Page 5 of 14
3 4 5 6 7
Join the Conversation
Add a Comment
 
Copyright 1999 - 2017. Slickdeals, LLC. All Rights Reserved. Copyright / Infringement Policy  •  Privacy Policy  •  Terms of Service  •  Acceptable Use Policy (Rules)  •  Interest-Based Ads
Link Copied to Clipboard