Forum Thread

Was SS implemented only due to a failure of capitalism?

paperboy05 21,133 466 May 4, 2012 at 12:24 PM
IOW: Did capitalism cause the Great Depression?

At the risk of taking away from Julia's thread, I created this one.

Quote from 124nic8 View Post :
Because a major collapse of the US economy does not represent a failure of capitalism?
No, it doesn't.

Quote :
And since the US economy is probably the best known example of capitalism in the world, I find it hard to believe that you're contesting that it is an example of capitalism.
Best known example doesn't mean it was a pure capitalistic economy, or that the collapse was due to capitalistic politicies. This goes back to the whole unsupported inflamatory "beliefs" thing.

Quote :
Where did I misrepresent your views?
By asking that crap question. Secret Protip, just because you put a question mark doesn't make your assertions valid.

Quote :
Are you denying that your "laugh" post added nothing meaningful to the discussion and was only a thinly veiled insult?
Are you denying that your post labeling SS was "implemented only due to a failure of capitalism" is an unsupported inflammatory "belief" ?

Quote :
It would at least have been somewhat productive to detail your disagreement which you still have not clarified.
As it would have been productive to not post unsupported inflamatory "beliefs"

But here ya go: http://mises.org/daily/2845

http://www.freedomworks.org/files...ession.pdf

Though I'm sure you'll hand wave.

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#16
http://www.ssa.gov/history/whybook.html

"SECURITY was attained in the earlier days through the interdependence of members of families upon each other and of the families within a small community upon each other. The complexities of great communities and of organized industry make less real these simple means of security. Therefore, we are compelled to employ the active interest of the Nation as a whole through government in order to encourage a greater security for each individual who composes it....

This seeking for a greater measure of welfare and happiness does not indicate a change in values. It is rather a return to values lost in the course of our economic development and expansion."

Franklin D. Roosevelt: Message of the President to Congress, June 8, 1934.

In fact the given reason for SS has nothing to do with capitalism, and everything to do with the fact that urbanization lead to the loss of the family as a method to care for the old. This is why Amish are exempt. The idea of planning to provide for yourself in retirement post-dates the depression.
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If I appear to be ignoring your posts, it's probably because you are on my ignore list.

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#17
Quote from Xygonn View Post :
In fact the given reason for SS has nothing to do with capitalism, and everything to do with the fact that urbanization lead to the loss of the family as a method to care for the old. This is why Amish are exempt. The idea of planning to provide for yourself in retirement post-dates the depression.
Because we all know that when pols give speeches they tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.... LMAO

And it had nothing to do with the fact that peoples' life savings were stolen when the banks failed. Of course their family's savings were stolen, too.
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Quote from 124nic8 View Post :
Because we all know that when pols give speeches they tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.... LMAO

And it had nothing to do with the fact that peoples' life savings were stolen when the banks failed. Of course their family's savings were stolen, too.
There are plenty of people that would argue the problem was fractional reserve banking. People did not generally save for retirement in the 1930s. SS is a result of a nanny state taking over where a statistically significant fraction of families failed to to care of their older members.

Before Union Pensions and SS, retirement wasn't even a concept.

Quote :
To get some perspective, let's take a quick look back at how we came to the idea of retirement:
Retirement is a pretty modern idea. Before we created Social Security in the 1930s, the vast majority of people never retired or thought about retiring. They simply worked until they couldn't anymore and then often went to live with family.
Social Security, however, introduced the idea that everyone should have some basic level of income as they age. Then after World War II, American companies started to adopt retirement plans as a part of their wage packages for employees.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-50514...nt-retire/
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#19
History of the Social Security Program [ncpssm.org]

Quote :
Social Security is a lifeline: In 1935, after bank failures and a stock market crash had wiped out the savings of millions of Americans, the nation turned to Washington to guarantee the elderly a decent income. In those days, only a handful of workers had access to pensions from their employers or through State governmental pension programs. Over half of America 's elderly lacked sufficient income to be self-supporting. The Social Security Act was enacted at the urging of President Franklin D. Roosevelt to create a social insurance program that would ensure workers would have a source of income after they retired.
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Interestingly SS kicked in at age 62, the average life expectancy in 1935.

I guess I would be willing to raise the age to 78 and keep the current SS benefits. This would probably allow much lower contributions.

Wake up nic. Your website is a .org that is just plain wrong.

Quote :
The National Committee to Preserve Social Security and Medicare (NCPSSM) was founded in 1982 by former Congressman James Roosevelt, son of President Franklin D. Roosevelt who signed the Social Security Act into law. Two additional leaders of prominence have also headed the organization; from 1989 - 2001, former Acting Commissioner of the Social Security Administration, Martha A. McSteen, and former Congresswoman Barbara B. Kennelly, who headed the organization from 2002 - 2011. Max Richtman, who served as Executive Vice President since 1989, was appointed as President and CEO in August 2011.
James Roosevelt (D)
Martha A McSteen (Whole life owed to SSA, appointed by a (D))
Barbara B. Kennelly (D)

So non-partisan.

I gave you the .gov explanation, and a CBS news article. I now bring you wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement

Retirement is the point where a person stops employment completely.[1][2] A person may also semi-retire by reducing work hours.
Many people choose to retire when they are eligible for private or public pension benefits, although some are forced to retire when physical conditions don't allow the person to work any more (by illness or accident) or as a result of legislation concerning their position.[3] In most countries, the idea of retirement is of recent origin, being introduced during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Previously, low life expectancy and the absence of pension arrangements meant that most workers continued to work until death. Germany was the first country to introduce retirement in the 1880s.
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#21
A major failure of crony capitalism != a failure of capitalism.
A failure of a scientific experiment != a failure of the scientific method

Countries based on socialism has failed all across the world in many different forms so I guess Nic believes that socialism has failed.
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#22
Quote from darkfrog View Post :
A major failure of crony capitalism != a failure of capitalism.
A failure of a scientific experiment != a failure of the scientific method

Countries based on socialism has failed all across the world in many different forms so I guess Nic believes that socialism has failed.
I don't believe nor did I claim that capitalism is a failure.

But it did fail when it caused the GD and that was the reason SS was adopted.

And undamped positive feedback system is unstable and will "crash" from time to time.
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Quote from 124nic8 View Post :
I don't believe nor did I claim that capitalism is a failure.
Never said you did, did I? In fact, I never mentioned you at all.
Quote :
But it did fail when it caused the GD and that was the reason SS was adopted.
Prove that capitalism was the sole reason behind the GD.
Quote :
And undamped positive feedback system is unstable and will "crash" from time to time.
That's nice but no one has proposed that we implement unrestrained, pure, free market capitalism. That is merely your bogeyman that you rail against. Except for a very few anarcho-libertarians, most 'capitalists' regard the rule of law to be paramount and recognize the need for nominal regulation and oversight. The economy becomes problematic when people (mostly politicians and the banks) try to tinker with it to create certain outcomes. This is a problem of central planning, not the free markets.
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Quote from darkfrog View Post :
Never said you did, did I? In fact, I never mentioned you at all.
So your weren't referring to me when you wrote:

Quote from darkfrog View Post :
Countries based on socialism has failed all across the world in many different forms so I guess Nic believes that socialism has failed.
and implying that I think capitalism has failed?

Quote :
Prove that capitalism was the sole reason behind the GD.
Prove that I said "capitalism is the sole reason behind the GD."

What I said is the GD was a failure of capitalism.

Do you think it was a success?

Quote :
That's nice but no one has proposed that we implement unrestrained, pure, free market capitalism. That is merely your bogeyman that you rail against. Except for a very few anarcho-libertarians, most 'capitalists' regard the rule of law to be paramount and recognize the need for nominal regulation and oversight. The economy becomes problematic when people (mostly politicians and the banks) try to tinker with it to create certain outcomes. This is a problem of central planning, not the free markets.
Nono Recessions/depressions were common before banks and government tried to tinker with the economy. In fact those problems were why governments started tinkering.
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#25
Quote from 124nic8 View Post :
Prove that I said "capitalism is the sole reason behind the GD."

What I said is the GD was a failure of capitalism.
So if capitalism isn't the sole reason behind the GD, how could the GD be a failure of capitalism?

Quote :
Do you think it was a success?
False dichotomy. It may not have been a success, however, it doesn't have to be a failure when there are other variables involved that run counter to free market ideas.
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Quote from paperboy05 View Post :
So if capitalism isn't the sole reason behind the GD, how could the GD be a failure of capitalism?
Because it occured in a predominently capitalist system.

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False dichotomy.
No, it's a question.

Quote :
It may not have been a success, however, it doesn't have to be a failure when there are other variables involved that run counter to free market ideas.
Capitalism can never fail cause a "pure" capitalist system never exists. Whee

The problem with this line of thinking is that the "other variables" were introduced to mitigate the failures of capitalism.

That's the problem with ideologues, there is never an ideal, so everything is blamed on the non-ideal parts instead of the ideology they prefer, even if it's 90% pure. They always blame the 10%.
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#27
It was implemented because FDR was a communist.
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Quote from darkfrog View Post :
Prove that capitalism was the sole reason behind the GD.
Belief in the gold standard was the real reason for the Great Depression.
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Quote from 124nic8 View Post :
Nono Recessions/depressions were common before banks and government tried to tinker with the economy. In fact those problems were why governments started tinkering.
See the "Panic of 1907" where JP Morgan Chase was actually the entity that protected the Market and averted a crisis. The government didn't feel comfortable w/ a private firm then having that much power over the banking system and their economic survival. So the government made 6yr-7rs of trips to Europe to see how they did it. They came back impresses with the British and German system and thus created the Fed.

We then had a time known as the roaring 20's which created a bubble. You had a major sell off and the fed refused to lower interest rates and restricted the flow of cash in the U.S. By restricting the money supply businesses faltered, farms went bankrupt etc.. b/c money was inaccessible.

So the better question is.. would capitalism have prevented the Great Depression? We had a similar situation in 1907 where a private company successfully handled it. Private control was two scary.. so the Fed Reserve came in and made some royal blunders after a similar market sell-off.

Private control was to scary for the government, so we adopted a European style Federal Reserve. If the control would have stayed truly capitalistic (as it was two decades earlier), would there have even been a Great Depression?

besides I thought this discussion was about SS? Which I have already proved was implemented in the USSR far before ever coming to America. USSR = Communist which is the exact opposite of Capitalism. So how can two completely opposite forms of economic structure both have fault for SS???
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Quote from DJPlayer View Post :
See the "Panic of 1907" where JP Morgan Chase was actually the entity that protected the Market and averted a crisis. The government didn't feel comfortable w/ a private firm then having that much power over the banking system and their economic survival. So the government made 6yr-7rs of trips to Europe to see how they did it. They came back impresses with the British and German system and thus created the Fed.

We then had a time known as the roaring 20's which created a bubble. You had a major sell off and the fed refused to lower interest rates and restricted the flow of cash in the U.S. By restricting the money supply businesses faltered, farms went bankrupt etc.. b/c money was inaccessible.

So the better question is.. would capitalism have prevented the Great Depression? We had a similar situation in 1907 where a private company successfully handled it. Private control was two scary.. so the Fed Reserve came in and made some royal blunders after a similar market sell-off.

Private control was to scary for the government, so we adopted a European style Federal Reserve. If the control would have stayed truly capitalistic (as it was two decades earlier), would there have even been a Great Depression?

besides I thought this discussion was about SS? Which I have already proved was implemented in the USSR far before ever coming to America. USSR = Communist which is the exact opposite of Capitalism. So how can two completely opposite forms of economic structure both have fault for SS???
Just cause SS was implemented in the USSR prior to the GD does not mean that SS was not implemented here due to a failure of capitalism. We still had/have a primarily capitalist system when SS was created. Banks, even the central kind, are a bastion of capitalism. Capitalism does not mean no government involvement in the economy; just a lower degree.
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