Forum Thread

Empire State building shooting: Cops fire 16 rounds and injure 9, kill shooter

Gotchaforce 6,038 364 August 25, 2012 at 11:35 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/u...e-coverage

wtf?

NYC needs to train its cops better. You flat out shouldnt be allowed to carry unless you have extensive training. Its pure luck that the cops didnt take out several innocent bystanders with their sloppy accuracy.

btw the guy never fired a round at the cops, so im sure all those bystanders are so thankful it took 16 rounds to kill the guy.

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#61
Quote from Ryu-bom View Post :
Did I miss something?

The arguement is that ammo magazine should not be limited and the arguement was that look at all the bullets needed to take down the perp.

If Dues arguement is that "professionally trained" LEO needed 16 bullets to kill a guy ( NINE of which MISSED ), why should we limit CCW ammo..

Did he missed the point that ONLY FIVE bullets was needed to take down the perp and the NINE other bullets hurt other innocent people, because of these trigger happy cops?

My guess was that 5 bullets hit the perp and he already dropped while the cop continuing pulling the trigger on his semi-automatic unleashing 9 more bullets that just flew all over the place hitting INNOCENT PEOPLE

So if these "professionally" trained CCW holders are still so reckless, how does that bold for the everyday non-professional CCW holder.. If that is your arguement, it is a ULTIMATE FAIL

So one can conclude the more bullets in a magazine, the more likely someone will fire and pump out more bullets then needed.. The "professionally-trained cop" statement has hurt your arguement even more then it helped.
You've never actually shot a pistol, have you?

Nor are you up to speed on the varying requirements for pistol training required by police in general, and the NYPD in particular, are you?

Nor the general accuracy of police in situations requiring them to return fire on a hostile suspect?

Nor the number of bullets it actually takes to incapacitate or kill someone? You magically come up with five rounds, based on this specific event alone and with no knowledge of other similar events.

Yet again, your breadth of knowledge on any subject you deign to talk about is simply amazing.

I doubt you'll be able to find many recorded events of "non-professional" CCW carries going full retard and emptying mag after mag at one guy, and missing most shots. If you'd like to do something other than espouse your firmly-held but poorly-researched views, you might want to apply yourself to seeing how many of those situations has actually been recorded in the past, say, 5 years.
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#62
Quote from PhucilliJerry View Post :

No argument here. The only thing I can't tell on the video is if he actually pointed the gun, he certainly drew his gun and raised his hand. I don't think it really matters anyway, he already showed he was willing to fire and take someone's life, he needed to be stopped, just the way it was done is very suspect of trained LEOs.




I don't know, no one does. Obviously the cops felt one was not enough.
= recklessness

Now if you read earlier post one other poster was trying to compare cops and a normal CCW carrier...
And if cops can be so reckless with their weapons, can he use that as a arguement for making CCW carrier anymore positive, which was what he was trying to do.

Now unlike cops who have a ENORMOUS piggybank to payout when they act in a reckless manner...

Who knows maybe what we need to do is make it everyone who owns a gun buy insurance in case the "fark" up. If this case showed that even ( as the other poster said "professionally" trained ) cop can screw up
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#63
Quote from Ryu-bom View Post :
Are you going to deny and play willfully ignorant, that if a person could get access to a gun, they wouldn't use that as a FIRST choice of weapon? And that a gun above ALL ELSE makes killing someone a whole lot easier?
We just had a discussion a few weeks ago about that, and I recall some anti-gun people saying things like pepper spray are better than a gun.
Quote from Ryu-bom View Post :
In all fairness would you likely survive a knife attack or gunshots wounds?
Well, unless you're talking about a pocket knife, knives tend to make pretty big holes....
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#64
Quote from Deusxmachina View Post :
We just had a discussion a few weeks ago about that, and I recall some anti-gun people saying things like pepper spray are better than a gun.
were they talking about what was better to use to kill someone.....Confused
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#65
Quote from Ryu-bom View Post :
were they talking about what was better to use to kill someone.....Confused
I think it was "stop" and not necessarily "kill." I forget since I tend to tune out when someone starts saying pepper spray will stop someone better than a gun.

Reminds me of the other week at the pistol range when a guy pulls out his tactical shotgun and starts blasting from 10-15 feet away. ...I'll stand in front of pepper spray instead any day. laugh out loud
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#66
Quote from Ryu-bom View Post :
= recklessness

Now if you read earlier post one other poster was trying to compare cops and a normal CCW carrier...
And if cops can be so reckless with their weapons, can he use that as a arguement for making CCW carrier anymore positive, which was what he was trying to do.

Now unlike cops who have a ENORMOUS piggybank to payout when they act in a reckless manner...

Who knows maybe what we need to do is make it everyone who owns a gun buy insurance in case the "fark" up. If this case showed that even ( as the other poster said "professionally" trained ) cop can screw up
In my mind an armed populace is a great deterrent to criminal activity and governmental tyranny.

Well, say a cop is reckless and starts firing into a crowd that I am in because 1 out of 100+ of us is a criminal. What do I do? Stand there and hope he has really good aim or take action? Either escaping or stopping the shooter, in this case, a police officer? Do I defend myself? I've never been in a situation like that and hope I never am.

So if I own a gun that I hunt with and keep at home and never bring into crowded areas I should have to pay insurance to cover other reckless people? Why not just tax/charge people to enter NYC or Chicago or Detroit to cover potential medical expenses in-case they get shot?

Why are crime rates so high in gun restricted cities/states and so low in gun friendly states?

That enormous piggy bank is taxpayer funds, so it is coming from everyone, not from the cop(s). They might (should) lose their job but they are more than likely not going to pay any sort of restitution from their own pockets.
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#67
Not sure how they missed so much. They were at close range, and it looks like they fired their bullets over 5 seconds. One fired 9 rounds, the other 7. This is not a "spray and pray" type of shooting rate. I wouldn't say they should be punished, but they were right to use a gun when the suspect pulled his .45.
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#68
Quote from PhucilliJerry View Post :
In my mind an armed populace is a great deterrent to criminal activity and governmental tyranny.

Well, say a cop is reckless and starts firing into a crowd that I am in because 1 out of 100+ of us is a criminal. What do I do? Stand there and hope he has really good aim or take action? Either escaping or stopping the shooter, in this case, a police officer? Do I defend myself? I've never been in a situation like that and hope I never am.

So if I own a gun that I hunt with and keep at home and never bring into crowded areas I should have to pay insurance to cover other reckless people? Why not just tax/charge people to enter NYC or Chicago or Detroit to cover potential medical expenses in-case they get shot?

Why are crime rates so high in gun restricted cities/states and so low in gun friendly states?

That enormous piggy bank is taxpayer funds, so it is coming from everyone, not from the cop(s). They might (should) lose their job but they are more than likely not going to pay any sort of restitution from their own pockets.
see that what insurance is ( whether it is from taxpayers or individual ), it is always used to pay someone else "accident/recklessness"

TX and CA have pretty high crime rates and both are gun-lienent states... Yes guns will deter criminals.... except the criminals that also have a gun.

PS besides I don't have a problem with people stockpiling and turning their home into a stocked up armory, I am even ok with people keeping bombs and fighter jets too ( if they can afford it )... I only have a problem when people think that just because guns/arms is a right they can carry it everywhere they go even to Chuck e Cheeses...

If you want your guns to protect your home and against the man, fine.. But when people start saying they need to go out in public with one becuase it is a dangerous place, that is just B.S.
HSJ ( before he voluntary left the podium ) made the statement that out in public is a dangerous place and he feels better carrying a gun in public.. In which I would say just stay home with your guns.
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#69
Quote from Xygonn View Post :
Not sure how they missed so much. They were at close range, and it looks like they fired their bullets over 5 seconds. One fired 9 rounds, the other 7. This is not a "spray and pray" type of shooting rate. I wouldn't say they should be punished, but they were right to use a gun when the suspect pulled his .45.
Not when there are bystanders around... and this is in MIDTOWN MANHATTEN right outside the Empire State Building ( one of the most densly packed areas ) in mid-afternoon

The cops forced the perp to draw his weapon,

If you are a cop, you put your life above all others, and putting yourself in harms way to protect the innocent. If cops think that self-preservation comes first, you might as well argue that every non-cop gets a gun as well, if self-preservation was the same across all boards
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#70
Quote from Ryu-bom View Post :
= recklessness

Now if you read earlier post one other poster was trying to compare cops and a normal CCW carrier...
And if cops can be so reckless with their weapons, can he use that as a arguement for making CCW carrier anymore positive, which was what he was trying to do.

Now unlike cops who have a ENORMOUS piggybank to payout when they act in a reckless manner...

Who knows maybe what we need to do is make it everyone who owns a gun buy insurance in case the "fark" up. If this case showed that even ( as the other poster said "professionally" trained ) cop can screw up
You need to change your password as your account has been hacked. The REAL Ryu-born would never dismiss these actions as recklessness but rather would point out how these actions are an integral part of the police state and how these cops were drunk with the power of their badges and wanted to show this guy and the rest of the would be criminals who's boss.
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#71
Quote from Ryu-bom View Post :
Not when there are bystanders around... and this is in MIDTOWN MANHATTEN right outside the Empire State Building ( one of the most densly packed areas ) in mid-afternoon

The cops forced the perp to draw his weapon,

If you are a cop, you put your life above all others, and putting yourself in harms way to protect the innocent. If cops think that self-preservation comes first, you might as well argue that every non-cop gets a gun as well, if self-preservation was the same across all boards
How? By approaching him?

So they let the guy with the .45 who already killed one guy keep walking? Then what?

After the perp pulls a weapon, then what? Let him shoot up the police and innocent bystanders? Go for a tackle? I mean, how do you minimize damage in this scenario?
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#72
Quote from Xygonn View Post :
How? By approaching him?

So they let the guy with the .45 who already killed one guy keep walking? Then what?

After the perp pulls a weapon, then what? Let him shoot up the police and innocent bystanders? Go for a tackle? I mean, how do you minimize damage in this scenario?
Jason Bourne would have no problem disarming and incapacitating the perp.
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#73
Quote from PhucilliJerry View Post :
Well, say a cop is reckless and starts firing into a crowd that I am in because 1 out of 100+ of us is a criminal. What do I do? Stand there and hope he has really good aim or take action? Either escaping or stopping the shooter, in this case, a police officer? Do I defend myself? I've never been in a situation like that and hope I never am.
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Quote from Ryu-bom View Post :
TX and CA have pretty high crime rates and both are gun-lienent states... Yes guns will deter criminals.... except the criminals that also have a gun.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say plenty of criminals with guns are deterred if citizens have guns.
Quote from Ryu-bom View Post :
The cops forced the perp to draw his weapon,
I don't want to say "forced," but there is something to be said about it, I guess. Consider how various precincts/agencies have things like "no car chases" rules because the risk to civilians is too high. I don't know what, if anything, the NY cops could or should have done differently, but I'm sure the topic will come up.
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#74
Now to throw some real numbers in the discussion:
Recent bullet count [washingtonpost.com]

According to this article, 10 bullets hit the gunman. Between the 2 officers that is 62.5% accuracy. 3 people were actually struck by whole bullets. 6 wounded by fragments and/or ricochets. CNN reported that the gunman died from 9 GSW's to the chest, which indicates the officers shooting center mass as trained and giving the best chance of accuracy.
I haven't seen the video, so I don't know the distance of the encounter, nor the number of civilians around. All things considered, I would say the officers performed well in that environment. Sure it would've been great if no one was injured, but in downtown NYC at 9 AM?!
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#75
Quote from Ryu-bom View Post :
Not when there are bystanders around... and this is in MIDTOWN MANHATTEN right outside the Empire State Building ( one of the most densly packed areas ) in mid-afternoon

The cops forced the perp to draw his weapon,

If you are a cop, you put your life above all others, and putting yourself in harms way to protect the innocent. If cops think that self-preservation comes first, you might as well argue that every non-cop gets a gun as well, if self-preservation was the same across all boards
so more proof that you don't read the articles, considering this happened around 9:00AM in the morning.
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