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Gun Incident Mega Thread - Post All Gun Incidents Here

Krazen1211 425 January 23, 2013 at 11:49 AM
http://www.bradenton.com/2013/01/...after.html

Manatee County sheriff's deputies continue to investigate an incident in which a man fatally shot an alleged robbery suspect Sunday night at his Bradenton home.

Two men were sitting in the carport of a residence in the 4200 block of 24th Street West about 10:20 p.m. when three suspects, dressed in black and wearing masks, approached on foot. James Brady, 26, allegedly pointed a handgun at one of the victims, ordering him to the ground, according to the sheriff's office.

That's when the victim, who has a conceal-carry license, pulled out a handgun, according to Dave Bristow, sheriff's office spokesman. Gunfire exchanged between the two men



Score one more for the good guys.

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#1531
Quote from TRNT View Post :
Let me get thi straight....

1. Number of children drowning in 5 gallon buckets in homes that have 5 gallon buckets

2. Number of children drowning in 5 gallon buckets in homes that do not have 5 gallon buckets

3. Number of household guns used to shoot family members or freinds

4. Number of household guns used to shoot intruders

Claiming 2 to 1 is like 4 to 3 is just a joke.
First, if you do not exclude deliberate acts from #3 you are effectively being dishonest when discussing the risks of a gun in the house. When discussing risky behaviors or actions we are talking about unintended/unwanted outcomes. That is why, if you intend to be honest with your friends, you need to talk about accidental/unintended death/injuries.

Second, I have heard the bucket stat before. I don't know if it is actually true. I believe it is probably a distortion of actual information (I will come back to this). Let's assume it is actually true. For quick argument's sake lets say 100% of homes have a bucket. Let's assume the number of child drowning deaths in buckets is exactly equal to child deaths due to accidental discharges of firearms. That actually would put the two risks at about the same order of magnitude. It is estimated that 40% of homes have a gun. So that means (assuming all else equal... which it isn't in the case of guns and buckets) your chances of an accidental firearms death is 2x that of the drowning in a bucket. When we are talking about risk of the same magnitude (you need 10x to be an order of magnitude more risky) you should, barring other information, treat both risks as equally likely in your life and lock up your buckets.

OK, I really doubt someone gathered real data on bucket deaths. More likely this was a subset of drowning deaths that weren't classified as swimming pools or natural lakes, ponds, etc. I've included a link to a site below that is looking at several causes of death vs accidental gun deaths. You can see that accidental gun deaths really are not very common and many other things should bother us more. Swimming pools are much higher on the list but I have to say I suspect people are generally aware of the hazards associated with pools (don't run around them, don't swim alone etc).
http://m1-garand-rifle.com/gun-sa...-pools.php
I can not vouch for the reliability of the data but it seems consistent with other data I have seen.
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#1532
Quote from Deusxmachina View Post :
Assault buckets are a serious concern. Anyone who cares about children should agree.
We probably should require I.D.s and background checks before someone can buy one, and have them take a safety course, and lock them up in a safe when not in use. And what we really should do is outlaw "Saturday Night Special" buckets. Those are the ones we outlaw simply because people can afford them.

If it saves just one life, it's worth it.
Nice deflection. No, make that just plain old tired deflection.

Your analogy made no sense. And why is it that you don't answer questions asked re clarification of your comments?
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#1533
Quote from ZeeDuck View Post :
First, if you do not exclude deliberate acts from #3 you are effectively being dishonest when discussing the risks of a gun in the house. When discussing risky behaviors or actions we are talking about unintended/unwanted outcomes. That is why, if you intend to be honest with your friends, you need to talk about accidental/unintended death/injuries.

Second, I have heard the bucket stat before. I don't know if it is actually true. I believe it is probably a distortion of actual information (I will come back to this). Let's assume it is actually true. For quick argument's sake lets say 100% of homes have a bucket. Let's assume the number of child drowning deaths in buckets is exactly equal to child deaths due to accidental discharges of firearms. That actually would put the two risks at about the same order of magnitude. It is estimated that 40% of homes have a gun. So that means (assuming all else equal... which it isn't in the case of guns and buckets) your chances of an accidental firearms death is 2x that of the drowning in a bucket. When we are talking about risk of the same magnitude (you need 10x to be an order of magnitude more risky) you should, barring other information, treat both risks as equally likely in your life and lock up your buckets.

OK, I really doubt someone gathered real data on bucket deaths. More likely this was a subset of drowning deaths that weren't classified as swimming pools or natural lakes, ponds, etc. I've included a link to a site below that is looking at several causes of death vs accidental gun deaths. You can see that accidental gun deaths really are not very common and many other things should bother us more. Swimming pools are much higher on the list but I have to say I suspect people are generally aware of the hazards associated with pools (don't run around them, don't swim alone etc).
http://m1-garand-rifle.com/gun-sa...-pools.php
I can not vouch for the reliability of the data but it seems consistent with other data I have seen.
Please speak to the validity of the analogy. Is it even remotely relevant? Hint: one of the four is by definition zero.
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#1534
Quote from TRNT View Post :
Please speak to the validity of the analogy. Is it even remotely relevant? Hint: one of the four is by definition zero.
I did speak to it. I said I don't have actual data regarding buckets and I don't believe that data actually exists. However, if we talk about drowning in the home in general (excluding pools) we find the risks are of the same order of magnitude as accidental gun deaths. BTW, we also don't have data on the last two points either. The first two talk of death while the last two talk of shooting and presume injury or death.
Looking at the link I provided as a source, the rate of accidental drowning vs accidental fire arms death in the age range of 0-4 was 568 drown vs 19 with the firearm. Of that 568 it appears that 15% or 85 would have drown in the bath tub. Now if you factor that tubs are part of about 100% of homes while guns are part of 40% then we could say for homes with guns the rate is 19/.4=47.5 or you are still twice as likely to lose the kid to the tub.
The accidental drowning rates in tubs go down in the next age bracket so the contrast becomes less stark. Still, if you are scared of guns in the home due to the statistical risk of accidental death, accidental drowning in the home should be of equal concern and you shouldn't let your kids go near a pool.

Incidentally, I almost lost my sister when she was a toddler to a pool.
Last edited by ZeeDuck July 19, 2013 at 06:25 AM
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#1535
Quote from ZeeDuck View Post :
I did speak to it. I said I don't have actual data regarding buckets and I don't believe that data actually exists. However, if we talk about drowning in the home in general (excluding pools) we find the risks are of the same order of magnitude as accidental gun deaths. BTW, we also don't have data on the last two points either. The first two talk of death while the last two talk of shooting and presume injury or death.
Looking at the link I provided as a source, the rate of accidental drowning vs accidental fire arms death in the age range of 0-4 was 568 drown vs 19 with the firearm. Of that 568 it appears that 15% or 85 would have drown in the bath tub. Now if you factor that tubs are part of about 100% of homes while guns are part of 40% then we could say for homes with guns the rate is 19/.4=47.5 or you are still twice as likely to lose the kid to the tub.
The accidental drowning rates in tubs go down in the next age bracket so the contrast becomes less stark. Still, if you are scared of guns in the home due to the statistical risk of accidental death, accidental drowning in the home should be of equal concern and you shouldn't let your kids go near a pool.

Incidentally, I almost lost my sister when she was a toddler to a pool.
That is not what I meant. We could lack data and the analogy be valid and vice versa. So was the analogy valid? Hint: one of those 4 BY DEFINITION is zero.
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#1536
Quote from TRNT View Post :
That is not what I meant. We could lack data and the analogy be valid and vice versa. So was the analogy valid? Hint: one of those 4 BY DEFINITION is zero.
Since we have no data and the gun ones don't have the correct exclusions they are by default invalid in my book thus the whole comparison is invalid. If the top part doesn't mean what I think it means at first glance then it, like the later two points also suffers from the flaws of a suggestive argument.
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#1537
Quote from ZeeDuck View Post :
Since we have no data and the gun ones don't have the correct exclusions they are by default invalid in my book thus the whole comparison is invalid. If the top part doesn't mean what I think it means at first glance then it, like the later two points also suffers from the flaws of a suggestive argument.
We are talking different things. Assume we have the god approved east correct numbers for all those four. Do you think the analogy itself is valid. And I repeat one of the four is inherently exactly by definition zero.
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Joined Oct 2007
2 tickets to the gun show
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#1538
Quote from TRNT View Post :
Nice deflection. No, make that just plain old tired deflection.

Your analogy made no sense. And why is it that you don't answer questions asked re clarification of your comments?
Your accusation is without merit, and you didn't ask any questions.

I said people who have five-gallon buckets at home are more likely to have a child drown in them than homes that do not. If you would like to prove that statement incorrect, feel free. But I don't think you can based on the way the laws of mass and reality work.

It should be obvious I don't deflect from gun facts. It should be obvious I routinely take gun facts and point-blank smash them into gun grabbers' faces and hopefully knock the ignorance and lies out of them.

Also, this is what you wrote that I replied to:
Quote from TRNT View Post :
I am convinced that keeping a gun at home often results in a family member or a frend getting shot. Is it proven beyond a readable doubt that it is more often than shooting an intruder? Frankly I have no interest in such precision or certainty.
You already said you you have no interest in if your claim is proven beyond a readable doubt. In other words, while you claim pro-gun people mischaracterize and manipulate facts, it is actually you who either mischaracterizes and manipulates facts, or who simply doesn't care about facts.

But, we knew that already. It is obvious once again after I posted 15 sentences of common gun-grabber distortions, lies, and outright ignorance, and then you completely skip over it.
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#1539
Quote from Deusxmachina View Post :

Also, this is what you wrote that I replied to:

You already said you you have no interest in if your claim is proven beyond a readable doubt. In other words, while you claim pro-gun people mischaracterize and manipulate facts, it is actually you who either mischaracterizes and manipulates facts, or who simply doesn't care about facts.
This does not follow at all. Not requiring or nit being interested in beyond a reasonless doubt standard of proof does not at all mean one is not interested in facts. Every day in this nation important matters are settled by preponderance of evidence standards. Look it up and maybe you understand how wrong you were here.
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#1540
Quote from TRNT View Post :
We are talking different things. Assume we have the god approved east correct numbers for all those four. Do you think the analogy itself is valid. And I repeat one of the four is inherently exactly by definition zero.
Even if we had the numbers I would say no because the gun side is a misleading stat. Certainly if the other side has a misleading stat then the answer is even more no.
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Joined Jun 2005
All downhill from here...
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#1541
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#1542
laugh out loud at one of the comments:

Quote :
Don't worry, Obama will hold a press conference stating he could have been this kid, and how that awful awful white man used the stand your ground law instead of running screaming out the back door of his own shop.

Obama / Holder's world of no Stand your Ground laws, would have a happier ending with the white man being arrested for not retreating, and the black man being released since his civil rights were violated
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Joined Aug 2010
L11: My Level Goes to 11
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#1543
http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=19902813

Man goes on mass shooting.
Last edited by Xygonn August 20, 2013 at 10:54 AM
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Joined Aug 2010
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#1544
http://www.news.com.au/national-n...6700172461

The Oklahoma random shooting of a baseball player.
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#1545
Quote from Xygonn View Post :
http://www.news.com.au/national-n...6700172461

The Oklahoma random shooting of a baseball player.
Confused Not being reported as racial
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