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Massive Government data collection: Is anything off limits?

Halfspin 3,184 150 June 7, 2013 at 09:22 PM
In light of the recent revelation of data collection I wanted to pose a question. We are told that the collection of this data is necessary to stop attacks and has stopped attacks however it also seems to be a massive breach of public trust and the dangers for abuse are rampant. Trust sure isn't being helped by the IRS's targeting.

Politics aside, what limits (if any) should be placed on the government collecting data?

Consumer data collection is at an all time high, do I need to worry about the government requesting information from other companies?
1) My grocery store collects data on all of my purchases.
2) My credit card company collects data on purchases and can track travel.
3) Netflix and Redbox know what movies I watch.
4) My kindle/Ipad knows what I read (and for the Ipad what I highlight).
5) Shoot starbucks even knows what time I like my coffee.
Tin hats aside, I'm sure that with the proper application of data mining and analytics the FBI could uncover quite a few terrorists if they had access to all of this data. But at what cost?

Please keep the politics in these threads:
- NSA Collecting Verizon Customers' Phone Records
- The National Security Agency and the FBI are tapping directly into the central servers of nine leading U.S. Internet companies


UPDATE: astromarmot (post #255) has linked to a great article on why this matters.....
Quote from astromarmot View Post :
Interesting article about spatio-temporal data and privacy...
http://www.nature.com/srep/2013/1...01376.html
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#61
Quote from loop610bob View Post :
I'm trying to understand why people are upset about this...now. It's crazy seeing the disconnect between Patriot/FISA courts at their inception and this. I can't figure out if they so completely ignored them when they happened that this actually IS news to them or if it's just crazy cynical partisanship.

I don't get it at all. What did they think was going on for the last seven friggin years?

It was just hippies being dumb. We should just punch them rather than listen at all to what they're complaining about. They're not serious on national security!

YEARS AGO. YEARS. WTF.
I have been noticing that many so-called conservatives on The Podium are becoming hippies and liberals when it comes to national security.

Notice how many self-proclaimed "patriots" keep posting articles and commentaries that are critical of the NSA/wiretapping stuff.

I am not sure what is causing this shift to liberalism/hippiedom and some claim that it is libertarianism but I think it's bogus because they're still in support of the military-industrial complex.

So you should take their outrage with a rainbow-colored grain of salt. I don't think they would be caught dead joining the hippies and leftists in any protests against the U.S. government.
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#62
Quote from kharvel View Post :
I have been noticing that many so-called conservatives on The Podium are becoming hippies and liberals when it comes to national security.

Notice how many self-proclaimed "patriots" keep posting articles and commentaries that are critical of the NSA/wiretapping stuff.

I am not sure what is causing this shift to liberalism/hippiedom and some claim that it is libertarianism but I think it's bogus because they're still in support of the military-industrial complex.

So you should take their outrage with a rainbow-colored grain of salt. I don't think they would be caught dead joining the hippies and leftists in any protests against the U.S. government.
your revisionist version of history is warped....what we supported was the wiretapping, monitoring, and datamining of TERRORISTS ANS SUSPECTED TERRORISTS where at least one end of the transaction was outside the USA, that is VERY DIFFERENT from the current dragnet of recording ALL PHONE RECORDS, ALL EMAIL TRAFFIC, ALL INTERNET TRAFFIC, SCANS OF ALL SNAIL MAIL COVERS, ALL FINANCIAL AND CREDIT CARD INFORMATION, ETC ETC. ON ALL PEOPLE IN THE USA.

Did that get through to you yet, or do we need to repeat it yet another 100 times for you?
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Last edited by Radeck June 11, 2013 at 10:58 AM.
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#63
Quote from TRNT View Post :
You have claimed this twice and so I am asking you again to provide a link for this claim.
Of what? the Romney leaks? here you go.
http://nation.foxnews.com/mitt-ro...d-irs-docs
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/.../id/504850
http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-ac...fo-to-reid
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#64
and to continue on with that..

http://www.politico.com/story/201...91380.html

Quote :
National Organization for Marriage to sue IRS

"Not only has the IRS retaliated against conservative, small-government and tea party groups as they apply for recognition of tax exemption and lied about it, but it has criminally released our confidential tax return including the identity of dozens of major donors to a political enemy,"
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#65
Quote from loop610bob View Post :
I was under the impression that only the ones on the intelligence committee would have been briefed. That's a pretty dumb thing to care about.
Even Congress people are speaking out about not being briefed because Obama said they had all been briefed. Also, it was just last year or whenever that a top security guy said the NSA does not wittingly keep records on Americans, and also said they have no idea about how much info is being kept.

And now it comes out that that guy was LYING because WE KNOW they've been purposely keeping records on Americans and WE KNOW from their own documents that they know how much info they have on people.

I saw a quote from that NSA guy somewhere that came out later, something like, "At the time, that was the least untruthful thing I could say."

These people are lying right to your face, and you wonder why people care.
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#66
I look at it like this.

As far as the phone calls:

Would you be OK with the Government copying the names and addresses (From and To) of all the mail you send and receive as well as when it was sent?

As for the Internet emails and such:

Would it be OK with you if the Government not only collected the above info but also opened the envelopes and scanned the content?
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Thanks to WikiLeaks we now know the Clinton Cartel makes the Mafia look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.

Which came first, apathy or ignorance when it comes to politics? Are so many people apathetic when it comes to politics because of their ignorance or are they ignorant because of their apathy?.
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#67
Quote from Hawk2007 View Post :
Seems like the liberals/progressive idealists and President Obama supporters are the biggest ones outraged over these revelations.
Are we reading the same forum??? Blink
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#68
Quote from trancepire View Post :
Are we reading the same forum??? Blink

No. As far as I can tell, many posters here would be able to easily replace WHPS Jay Carney should he fall ill suddenly. I do follow some of the commentary here, but I was referring to other parts of the intertubes. Wink
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#69
Quote from trancepire View Post :
Are we reading the same forum??? Blink
I just read a hilarious/horrendous article on the demographics of the people that hate this program. During the Bush years, all the haters were self identified Democrats. Now, it's the exact opposite and the Dems are all apologists.

Now is the perfect time for a politician with an ounce of intestinal fortitude to stand up and say hey, what should this program look like? What is right? What is the right balance? Feinstein's stonewalling (and Boehner's, and and and) is exactly the wrong answer.

I don't care what letter is next to their name. I would vote for Spongebob if he made it his goal to make the Inspector General a serious entity again.

edit: Tweet: "Thune says most lawmakers didn't know effect of their own votes. Has fundraiser w/Verizon on Thurs"

Nobody could have known. Liars.
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Last edited by loop610bob June 11, 2013 at 01:22 PM.
#70
Quote from Radeck View Post :
your revisionist version of history is warped....what we supported was the wiretapping, monitoring, and datamining of TERRORISTS ANS SUSPECTED TERRORISTS where at least one end of the transaction was outside the USA, that is VERY DIFFERENT from the current dragnet of recording ALL PHONE RECORDS, ALL EMAIL TRAFFIC, ALL INTERNET TRAFFIC, SCANS OF ALL SNAIL MAIL COVERS, ALL FINANCIAL AND CREDIT CARD INFORMATION, ETC ETC. ON ALL PEOPLE IN THE USA.

Did that get through to you yet, or do we need to repeat it yet another 100 times for you?
Freedom isn't free. Remember that? Yeah, hurts like a bitch when it is thrown back in your face huh? Want freedom, gotta sacrifice something. Don't like it? GTFO
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#71
I seem to be the only person who isn't really bothered by all these revelations. I already assumed the government was doing all this. From what I've read, there are already checks an balances in place (government oversight from all 3 branches, including courts that decide what they can and cannot analyze). Also.. it's been going on for 7 years and has obviously had absolutely no affect on my life whatsoever. They even claim they've used this information to stop a couple of terrorist plots.


The only thing that really bothers me about all this, is how easy it was for this contractor who leaked this to get access to highly sensitive information.
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#72
Thanks for the links.

But it seems I might be a bet confused. I thought these

1. leaking of donors of one non-profit to another (rival?) non-profit
2. leaking of whom Romney had donated to (I thought from his tax returns)

were separate and distinct incidences. But it seems perhaps the two are the same. If so, I would say whom Romney had donated to happened to be revealed as part of the larger leak and Romney was not necessarily targeted.

At any rate, thanks for indulging me.
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#73
Quote from bridgeburner View Post :
I seem to be the only person who isn't really bothered by all these revelations. I already assumed the government was doing all this. From what I've read, there are already checks an balances in place (government oversight from all 3 branches, including courts that decide what they can and cannot analyze). Also.. it's been going on for 7 years and has obviously had absolutely no affect on my life whatsoever. They even claim they've used this information to stop a couple of terrorist plots.


The only thing that really bothers me about all this, is how easy it was for this contractor who leaked this to get access to highly sensitive information.
It doesn't affect you now. But over time, as they can get away with more and more, it might get more and more broad. Collecting on everyone and building a database on everyone. Then, if you make the wrong person mad, it's a matter of finding something incriminating on you in that mass of data they've collected on you. And maybe not even you personally. Maybe political dissidents that don't agree with the current POTUS, or members of the press that are actually needed to get stories out there. It can all be used to create a chilling effect, and it can all be used in a means to oppress. There's a reason the fourth amendment exists, and there's a reason we have to hold the government to it.

Here's a good read from Reddit [reddit.com] giving real-life examples of what I'm talking about.

Do you think that oppression just happens one day?
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#74
well said ^^^ it's amazing how people just don't get it
First they came for the socialists [wikipedia.org],
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists [wikipedia.org],
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews [wikipedia.org],
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.
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#75
Quote from PaintTheSkyGrey View Post :
It doesn't affect you now. But over time, as they can get away with more and more, it might get more and more broad. Collecting on everyone and building a database on everyone. Then, if you make the wrong person mad, it's a matter of finding something incriminating on you in that mass of data they've collected on you. And maybe not even you personally. Maybe political dissidents that don't agree with the current POTUS, or members of the press that are actually needed to get stories out there. It can all be used to create a chilling effect, and it can all be used in a means to oppress. There's a reason the fourth amendment exists, and there's a reason we have to hold the government to it.
OK, now you sound exactly like the hippies and left-wing liberals who said exactly the same thing when the Patriot Act was first passed and when warrantless wiretapping was authorized.

Have you finally decided that freedom should be free and that nobody should sacrifice for freedom? When are you planning to purchase your guitar and headbands?

Quote :
Do you think that oppression just happens one day?
Yeah, that's what the hippies have been asking after 9/11. Last I checked, they're still asking that question and I see you've joined them.
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