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Jury nullification and Snowden

8,472 1,297 July 3, 2013 at 03:17 AM
Edward Snowden is the perfect example of where to use "Jury Nullification". If they get him back and if they don't have a secret trial, any juror that knows (moral) right from wrong should find him innocent. I wish I was on his jury.

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#16
That's not treason. Treason is when you do something that benefits the US's enemies, not our allies.
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#17
Quote from Danman114
:
That's not treason. Treason is when you do something that benefits the US's enemies, not our allies.
100% correct! And when this first broke, they were calling him "treasonous" and all he had done at that point was to reveal the depth of internal spying. Ergo, the US federal government considers its citizens to be "enemies". Not so?
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#18
Quote from Danman114
:
That's not treason. Treason is when you do something that benefits the US's enemies, not our allies.
Yes, the correct word would be sedition.
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#19
Quote from Danman114
:
That's not treason. Treason is when you do something that benefits the US's enemies, not our allies.
He's assisted by judge Baltasar Garzon and his team. These guys know what they're doing.
Revealing government secrets, yes. Treason? No.

On the other hand... Undermining our relationship with our allies may benefit our enemies.
...if this leak about bugging 38 embassies is true, of course.
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Last edited by procop July 3, 2013 at 09:58 AM.
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#20
Quote from dealgate
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100% correct! And when this first broke, they were calling him "treasonous" and all he had done at that point was to reveal the depth of internal spying. Ergo, the US federal government considers its citizens to be "enemies". Not so?
Interesting.
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#21
Quote from Halfspin
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You might have been right initially. But Snowden is now releasing details on our spy network to foreign countries. That is treasonous.

I'm sorry, what?

There's a big difference between maintaining intelligence and outright spying. In case you forgot, when this country was founded, people had little to no privacy and people were hellbent on turning each other in. The whole point of the constitution is it was about protecting internal citizens and keeping normal relationships with those on the outside.

There's nothing wrong with maintaining intelligence. There's a lot wrong with spying. Our gov is treasonous.

dealsgate post is a direct from Ron Paul.

https://www.facebook.com/ronpaul/...5892046686

Quote :
My understanding is that espionage means giving secret or classified information to the enemy. Since Snowden shared information with the American people, his indictment for espionage could reveal (or confirm) that the US Government views you and me as the enemy.
He's making little, if any, profit on this. He's not selling secrets.
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#98 [bash.org]+(4020)- [X]

<ikkenai> i don't have hard drives. i just keep 30 chinese teenagers in my basement and force them to memorize numbers
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#22
Quote from darkfrog
:
Quote from Danman114
:
That's not treason. Treason is when you do something that benefits the US's enemies, not our allies.
Yes, the correct word would be sedition.
I'm ok with sedition if you'd prefer I use that word.

Quote from mohater
:
There's a big difference between maintaining intelligence and outright spying. In case you forgot, when this country was founded, people had little to no privacy and people were hellbent on turning each other in. The whole point of the constitution is it was about protecting internal citizens and keeping normal relationships with those on the outside.

There's nothing wrong with maintaining intelligence. There's a lot wrong with spying.
I'm differentiating between Snowden revealing that the US spies on it's own citizens and Snowden revealing that the US spys on other countries and their citizens. One of these revelations is in the interests of the American public, the other is not.

We might agree, but I can't tell from your post.

Quote from mohater
:
He's making little, if any, profit on this. He's not selling secrets.
He made no money off the original revelation. However, it looks like he's selling secrets (or threatening to sell secrets) for security.
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#23
Quote from Xygonn
:
For those of you that have previously said we should only drone strike threats against the United States that are not practical to capture when the host country is not helping us:

Should we bomb/drone strike Snowden if we find his location even if it is Russia or Ecuador?
I hope you acknowledge that I am not one of those. You recall that my conditions preclude us from striking the guy in Russia or Ecuador.
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"But you have to ask yourself how many times does one have to wake up the next day, look at what they've posted the night before, and repeatedly face shame and regret before not doing *that* anymore? LMAO" --BLUEKNOB, 9:36 pm Dec 12, 2017 on the eve of Alabama special election with Roy Moore as a candidate

"I think this is the beginning of the end for her and her presidential aspirations. With her out of the way and no other viable Democrat contender, conservatives should have an easy run next year."--BLUEKNOB, July 2015

"Biden an Warren take center stage... and unfortunately, probabely the election unless Trump makes some major changes in the near future. There's a lot to like about the guy but he's making it really tough on the general electorate to warm up to him."--BLUEKNOB, June 2016
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#24
Quote from Halfspin
:

I'm differentiating between Snowden revealing that the US spies on it's own citizens and Snowden revealing that the US spys on other countries and their citizens. One of these revelations is in the interests of the American public, the other is not.

We might agree, but I can't tell from your post.

He made no money off the original revelation. However, it looks like he's selling secrets (or threatening to sell secrets) for security.

When all you have is a pocket ace, you make sure it gets you something. When you go public the Snowden did, you keep some things close to make sure you have an out. That's not treasonous, that's taking care of yourself.

Bugging EU meetings is not in our interest. Bugging embassies is not in our interest. We're reverting to cold war era tactics and it'll boil down to scaring citizens into submission.

Again, there's a BIG difference between intelligence and spying.
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#25
Quote from Danman114
:
That's not treason. Treason is when you do something that benefits the US's enemies, not our allies.
Notice the "or". Maybe I am reading this wrong.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.
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#26
Quote from Halfspin
:
I'm differentiating between Snowden revealing that the US spies on it's own citizens and Snowden revealing that the US spys on other countries and their citizens. One of these revelations is in the interests of the American public, the other is not.
The US has fully admitted that it spies on foreign citizens and countries, I'm not getting what you think is new news here? Do you mean spying on allies???
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Reading comprehension isn't just for school children!
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#27
Quote from mohater
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When all you have is a pocket ace, you make sure it gets you something. When you go public the Snowden did, you keep some things close to make sure you have an out. That's not treasonous, that's taking care of yourself.
Isn't harming your country out of self-interest the epitome of treason?
Isn't the reason most supported Snowden because he revealed information to US citizens at the expense of his self-interests?

Quote from mohater
:
Bugging EU meetings is not in our interest. Bugging embassies is not in our interest. We're reverting to cold war era tactics and it'll boil down to scaring citizens into submission.

Again, there's a BIG difference between intelligence and spying.
I feel that you are mixing the two again. There is a big difference between (intelligence/spying) on your own citizens and (intelligence/spying) on other countries. Knowing that the US spies on other countries shouldn't scare US citizens.
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#28
Quote from mohater
:
dealsgate post is a direct from Ron Paul.

https://www.facebook.com/ronpaul/...5892046686

He's making little, if any, profit on this. He's not selling secrets.
Along with the information about spying on Americans he also publicly shared classified information about NSA spying on China and Russia and exactly how USA is doing it.

It doesn't matter he's not selling secrets. Julius and Ethel Rosenberg also did not sell any secrets. They gave out to Soviets our atomic secrets for free.
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#29
Quote from brbubba
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The US has fully admitted that it spies on foreign citizens and countries, I'm not getting what you think is new news here? Do you mean spying on allies???
Yes, but the how and what are not known, that is the new news that Snowden purported released.
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#30
Quote from Halfspin
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Isn't harming your country out of self-interest the epitome of treason?
Isn't the reason most supported Snowden because he revealed information to US citizens at the expense of his self-interests?
When the gov says it has thwarted" dozens of terror plots, and yet all we see in the news is the FBI baiting idiots, I see a problem. Add to that, the guy on capital hill said "we can prevent another Boston", good job jackass, you didn't prevent the "first" one.

Treason is acts person puts the ability of the government to function in jeopardy. What the founders of the USA did against England was "treason".

Quote from Halfspin
:
I feel that you are mixing the two again. There is a big difference between (intelligence/spying) on your own citizens and (intelligence/spying) on other countries. Knowing that the US spies on other countries shouldn't scare US citizens.
Intelligence is collecting information that's readily available to make assessments. We have lots of military intelligence officers who simply collect information that has nothing to do with spying. It's simply making observations on movements of things (people, goods, information, etc.) to make assessments on the events.

That's intelligence.

Our gov is telling us "WE NEED THIS TO PROTECT YOU, BUT WE CAN'T TELL YOU WHAT IS IT OR WHO IS BEING WATCHED OR WHAT IS ---> SUBMIT" That's what our gov is doing. Every justification is this is needed for our "protection" and it needs to simply be that.

I'm sure the King of England in 1776 had similar thoughts.

Quote from procop
:
Along with the information about spying on Americans he also publicly shared classified information about NSA spying on China and Russia and exactly how USA is doing it.

It doesn't matter he's not selling secrets. Julius and Ethel Rosenberg also did not sell any secrets. They gave out to Soviets our atomic secrets for free.
Big diff between secretly passing info on to our enemies and making things public.
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Last edited by mohater July 3, 2013 at 11:09 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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