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Militarization of Government Agencies & Police in Modern Society

AlfredoGarcia 1,449 19 July 21, 2013 at 11:18 AM Get The Wall Street Journal Coupons
Summed up pretty nicely in this article [wsj.com].

An interesting excerpt regarding the claim that it is in response to an "arms race" with criminals:

Quote :
Advocates of these tactics said that drug dealers were acquiring ever bigger weapons and the police needed to stay a step ahead in the arms race. There were indeed a few high-profile incidents in which police were outgunned, but no data exist suggesting that it was a widespread problem. A study done in 1991 by the libertarian-leaning Independence Institute found that less than one-eighth of 1% of homicides in the U.S. were committed with a military-grade weapon. Subsequent studies by the Justice Department in 1995 and the National Institute for Justice in 2004 came to similar conclusions: The overwhelming majority of serious crimes are committed with handguns, and not particularly powerful ones.
Raids over guitar hardwoods, marijuana plants, student loan repayment, etc. The Dept. of Education has its own SWAT team. This is getting ridiculous, and people and animals are getting killed unnecessarily over non-violent things like the above.

Is anyone a proponent of this militarization?

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#31
Quote from LivninSC View Post :
So why are the cops there then?
https://slickdeals.net/forums/showpost.php?p=60835660&postcount=17
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#32

Start watching at say 1:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AokjLn-fpww

You may wanna stop at say 2:15

There are always going to be outlying situations on both sides it's just that I'd much rather the people that do it on a daily basis be able to protect themselves as best they can.
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#33
Quote from LivninSC View Post :
So why are the cops there then?
Maybe you could read the post right before the one you quoted...

Let's say you are growing marijuana under state approved medical laws. There still is that nagging thing about it being illegal at the federal level. Additionally, we now have more and more raids on legit med grows and the risk of rippers breaking in to steal your crop is still a possibility. So the cops could be there for what they think is an illegal grow when it is legal, and the possibility that thieves are there taking your harvest can all be swirling around in yoru half-asleep brain, what is an honest, law-abiding, medical grower supposed to do?
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#34
Quote from LivninSC View Post :
Start watching at say 1:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AokjLn-fpww

You may wanna stop at say 2:15

There are always going to be outlying situations on both sides it's just that I'd much rather the people that do it on a daily basis be able to protect themselves as best they can.
No one is arguing against the police having access to weapons. We are arguing against the tactics used when serving warrants. Let's keep this on topic.
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#35
Quote from Xygonn View Post :
How often do you think neighbors call the police to report the police busting into a house?
That depends. If i heard "POLICE SEARCH WARRANT"!, i'd look outside to see what was going on. If i saw a dude pounding on the door rather than 5-6 people dressed like cops wearing tactical gear, i'd call the cops in a heartbeat.
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Never argue with idiots. First they bring you down to their level, then they beat you with experience.

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#36
Quote from darkfrog View Post :
No one is arguing against the police having access to weapons. We are arguing against the tactics used when serving warrants. Let's keep this on topic.
So because cops make mistakes once in a while, they shoudln't be able to use tactical gear for raids?

I'm all for only using the force necessary to keep the officers safe in a given situation. But if they're going after a suspected pot farm or a fugitive--those situations frequently involve weapons and the cops have a right to protect themselves.

I feel many here are victims of 20/20 hindsight. It isn't force used, it was the initial mistake made by the cops in going to the wrong house. All i know is, even if i was armed, if i heard cops busting down my door, i wouldn't just start firing my gun at them.

Quote from Dumpsterdiver View Post :
Tell that to my buddy. He awoke to the door being pounded on as the thief was breaking open the door..
And he was caught, wasn't he? That or he sure as hell wasn't successful. Being loud isn't exactly the mark of a good home invader.
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Last edited by politicaljunkie July 22, 2013 at 12:54 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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#37
Quote from AlfredoGarcia View Post :
Right. SWAT raids are overkill for guitar hardwoods and student loan repayment. That's my point. They're being used for far too much. It's one thing for a crack house or a violent situation. it's another for guitar hardwoods and orchids.
There have never been any raids for student loan repayment. There's enough issue here without fantasy.
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#38
Quote from darkfrog View Post :
Burglars no, home invaders yes. So 28% of robberies happen while the home is occupied? Doesn't help your argument. Even if it happens only infrequently, the fact that it does happen is enough reason to be suspicious about anyone breaking down your door, especially if you know you aren't breaking any laws.
Start peeling away the onion here...

First, lets get the terminology right--burglary is illegal entry into a dwelling w/ intent to steal; robbery is the theft by use of force/threat of force.

1) over 3/4 of burglaries are when people are gone.
2) of those where people are there, it is usually while they are asleep.

So the odds of someone having their door broken into by someone in the middle of the night, buy a bunch of people in police tactical gear is RARE. I'd be suprised if it happened a couple times in this entire country each year. So if someone is going to start firing their weapon at people thinking they were impersonating a cop--they're idiots.
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#39
Quote from darkfrog View Post :
Maybe you could read the post right before the one you quoted...

Let's say you are growing marijuana under state approved medical laws. There still is that nagging thing about it being illegal at the federal level. Additionally, we now have more and more raids on legit med grows and the risk of rippers breaking in to steal your crop is still a possibility. So the cops could be there for what they think is an illegal grow when it is legal, and the possibility that thieves are there taking your harvest can all be swirling around in yoru half-asleep brain, what is an honest, law-abiding, medical grower supposed to do?
Technically there are no law-abiding growers Secret

And I thought I was keeping this "on topic". Isn't the topic the Militarization of Police in Modern Society? Wasn't the OP's question "Is anyone a proponent of this militarization?" Can't exactly have a viable military without military style weaponry. Serving warrants can be very dangerous business. Serving a warrant you know you are dealing with a criminal. Little Ms. Patrol Cop in my YouTube video was just pulling someone over for a traffic citation. Atleast in that scenario I'd think you would have a higher likelihood of not running in to a criminal than serving a warrant and you see how that turned out!

That said I am for more harsh punishment when cops step over the line. The whole "I was pumped up and couldn't control myself" line doesn't sit too well with me.
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#40
Quote from politicaljunkie View Post :
And he was caught, wasn't he? That or he sure as hell wasn't successful. Being loud isn't exactly the mark of a good home invader.
No, actually he wasn't.
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#41
Quote from skiman View Post :
There have never been any raids for student loan repayment. There's enough issue here without fantasy.
""repayment""
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#42
Quote from Dumpsterdiver View Post :
No, actually he wasn't.
Did he get in? Was he in tactical gear? Was he followed by other cops in tactical gear? Is this situation even remotely analogous to what we're talking about?
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#43
Quote from LivninSC View Post :
Technically there are no law-abiding growers Secret
False. When you live in a state that has legalized growing, and you go through the legal process of getting a card, posting all of the required permits and keeping the plant numbers within the legal guidelines, and only selling to people in your collective, that is the definition of law-abiding. The fact that it is still illegal on a federal level is a red herring as to whether a grower should be considered law-abiding.

Quote :
And I thought I was keeping this "on topic". Isn't the topic the Militarization of Police in Modern Society? Wasn't the OP's question "Is anyone a proponent of this militarization?"
The militarization has to do with the military style tactics used when entering dwellings to serve warrants. That was the whole point of the OP article. Sorry if you didn't read it. The type and style of weapons was only part of the issue.


Quote :
Can't exactly have a viable military without military style weaponry. Serving warrants can be very dangerous business. Serving a warrant you know you are dealing with a criminal. Little Ms. Patrol Cop in my YouTube video was just pulling someone over for a traffic citation. Atleast in that scenario I'd think you would have a higher likelihood of not running in to a criminal than serving a warrant and you see how that turned out!
Yet most of these warrants can be served without such dramatics and it decreases the likelihood of entering the wrong house and shooting the dog.
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#44
Quote from politicaljunkie View Post :
Start peeling away the onion here...

First, lets get the terminology right--burglary is illegal entry into a dwelling w/ intent to steal; robbery is the theft by use of force/threat of force.

1) over 3/4 of burglaries are when people are gone.
2) of those where people are there, it is usually while they are asleep.

So the odds of someone having their door broken into by someone in the middle of the night, buy a bunch of people in police tactical gear is RARE. I'd be suprised if it happened a couple times in this entire country each year. So if someone is going to start firing their weapon at people thinking they were impersonating a cop--they're idiots.
Who said they have to think anyone is impersonating cops? When someone is busting in your door at 3am you don't automatically think they are cops at all, you assume they are bad guys with bad intentions, especially when you know you haven't been breaking any laws. The problem is exactly what we are discussing, these No-Know warrants. No knock, no identification as police, full-on assault.

You all seem to want to dismiss the mistakes of the cops when they kill the wrong person because it happens so rarely. I think that's a bullshit excuse and the fact is that it is occurring more frequently as these tactics are used more and more and used mostly in the name of a drug war that is a complete and abject failure.
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#45
Quote from politicaljunkie View Post :
Did he get in? Yes. Was he in tactical gear? No. Was he followed by other cops in tactical gear? No. Is this situation even remotely analogous to what we're talking about? Yes see below
Quote from politicaljunkie View Post :
Because 72% of burglaries happen when the occupant isn't at home. And burglars aren't exactly known with busting down the front door and making noise. That would be a horribly stupid way to attract attention to your crime.
Bugler, broke down front door by kicking it multiple times {loudly}. Ran in grabbed stuff and ran out the back by smashing open sliding glass doors {more so loudly}.
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