"modern conservatism = mass hysteria" a good read

Quote from thikthird : no it's not. soldiers acting legally and obeying orders, that die acting legally and obeying orders aren't always heroes. calling all dead soldiers "heroes" glorifies war and is what's inappropriate.

You, like Hayes, are just trying to get attention....

All the attention being paid to the sacrifices of service members just infuriates those who would never consider sacrificing anything, for anyone else.

Quote from thikthird : no it's not. soldiers acting legally and obeying orders, that die acting legally and obeying orders aren't always heroes.

I'm reminded of a Magneto scene in X-men: First Class.

"They're just following orders."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONK3kLT0258

Quote from thikthird : no it's not. soldiers acting legally and obeying orders, that die acting legally and obeying orders aren't always heroes. calling all dead soldiers "heroes" glorifies war and is what's inappropriate. too bad you think that, because he's right.

I think the argument is being held over the wrong premise.

Fallen soldiers are not heroes just because they died, they are not glorified because they died in war, serving to glorify war - they are heroes and being honored because in a country with an all-volunteer military, they WILLINGLY CHOSE to enter the service - knowing full well they MIGHT ended up permanently sideways.

It is not their death we are celebrating, it is the willingness to serve their country's fellow citizens where others do not - in the event a righteous cause WERE to arise in which they ACTUALLY had to defend our country and the rest of us.

The fact that such men and women are killed in UNrighteous causes, such as Iraq, does nothing to devalue their willingness to serve voluntarily.
They are indeed heroes, in every sense of the word and deed.

Quote from Anonymouse : Fallen soldiers are not heroes just because they died, they are not glorified because they died in war, serving to glorify war - they are heroes and being honored because in a country with an all-volunteer military, they WILLINGLY CHOSE to enter the service - knowing full well they MIGHT ended up permanently sideways.

i don't even buy that they're willingly choosing. the military recruits young, poor and poorly educated with no other real choice post high school. they come to high schools and target kids as young as 14, 15 who grew up playing call of duty, and let them play with guns, drive around in humvees, etc. it's a con game. on top of that, they're not enlisting for altruistic reasons, they just get hooked by the money and promises. they're acting in their own self-interests. i don't fault them for that, but that's not heroic in my book. they can certainly be capable of heroism, but that's besides the point.

Quote from thikthird : i don't even buy that they're willingly choosing. the military recruits young, poor and poorly educated with no other real choice post high school. they come to high schools and target kids as young as 14, 15 who grew up playing call of duty, and let them play with guns, drive around in humvees, etc. it's a con game. on top of that, they're not enlisting for altruistic reasons, they just get hooked by the money and promises. they're acting in their own self-interests. i don't fault them for that, but that's not heroic in my book. they can certainly be capable of heroism, but that's besides the point.

Diminish the choice they made to serve our country, by claiming they never really had the choice at all, and were practically forced into service by our government.
And if not forced/coerced into service, they're just all doing it for the money eh?

farking brilliant...

Quote from OhNoItsDEVO : Diminish the choice they made to serve our country, by claiming they never really had the choice at all, and were practically forced into service by our government. And if not forced/coerced into service, they're just all doing it for the money eh? farking brilliant...

not what i said at all. talking to kids who are poor with not much of a future ahead of them and promising them money and fun times isn't forcing someone to join the military. like i said it's a con game. not many are out there making a decision to "serve our country", they're serving themselves.

Quote from thikthird : not what i said at all. talking to kids who are poor with not much of a future ahead of them and promising them money and fun times isn't forcing someone to join the military. like i said it's a con game. not many are out there making a decision to "serve our country", they're serving themselves.

It's still "a choice".
A lot of people make choices based on limited options and not all of them choose to volunteer for the military.

If anyone should be aware of the possibility of death from such a decision, it would be those very people you condemn the system for "conning", since they pretend to kill from a very early age.

Even if they discount the possibility greatly - and the young always feel invulnerable - they STILL know it's a real possibility and decide accordingly.
Even the remote chance of death, (and injury isn't even nearly as remote since nearly 6X as many are wounded as killed), is still a choice to opt in and take that risk, and that IS "heroic".
Doubly so, since most of them have at least some idea what patriotism and sacrifice for others involves.

The young are not entirely robotic, though there are days I have my doubts.

The death toll in Iraq/Afghanistan [icasualties.org] for our side is closing in on 8,000 dead, which means maybe nearly 50,000 WIA - and that doesn't even count the PTSD cases coming back after 3-4 & even 5-6 tours of duty in the sandbox.
A rough estimate of man-tours of duty of the more than 200,000 men and women who have served - many serving multiple tours - probably runs over the 1M mark.
That puts the KIA ratio, not even counting ex-vets hired on as "contractors", at 8 in 1,000 and the WIA ratio at maybe 5 in 100. 5% may not seem terribly high, but for those 5%, 1 in 20, it is a heavy price to have paid.
Given the multiple deployment factor, the real numbers are probably closer to 1 out of every 10 people who served in Iraq & Afghanistan ended up wounded or killed.

I think the real issue is that the Lefts heros dont serve the Great Captialist Imperialist Satan....but rather fight it.



The people that serve in the US military arent heros....they are racist oppressors.

Quote from EscapeVelo : IThe people that serve in the US military arent heros....they are racist oppressors.

well, often, yes. or class oppressors to be more exact. but that's not the point at all, no wonder it's lost on you.

Quote from thikthird : not what i said at all. talking to kids who are poor with not much of a future ahead of them and promising them money and fun times isn't forcing someone to join the military. like i said it's a con game. not many are out there making a decision to "serve our country", they're serving themselves.

What foolish nonsense. Are you really going to generalize that the typical recruit is poor, stupid, etc? Why?

Quote from thikthird : no it's not. soldiers acting legally and obeying orders, that die acting legally and obeying orders aren't always heroes. calling all dead soldiers "heroes" glorifies war and is what's inappropriate.

The frack? Your response is going off on a tangent. You said "torturers" and "murderers" etc. which was what was responded to by stating that those that perform illegal or unjust acts are dealt with in their own separate way. Another straw man is being burnt tonight!

Quote from jonsmith74 : What foolish nonsense. Are you really going to generalize that the typical recruit is poor, stupid, etc? Why?

most are poor. because it's true?

Quote from themoleculoman : The frack? Your response is going off on a tangent. You said "torturers" and "murderers" etc. which was what was responded to by stating that those that perform illegal or unjust acts are dealt with in their own separate way. Another straw man is being burnt tonight!

i never said torturers or murderers. try and keep up. i've noticed so many people here are fond of trying to point out fallacies that they have no grasp of whatsoever.

Quote from thikthird : most are poor. because it's true? i never said torturers or murderers. try and keep up. i've noticed so many people here are fond of trying to point out fallacies that they have no grasp of whatsoever.

If it's true then you'll have no problem providing the data that support this.

Not sure why you want to smear people who choose to serve.

Quote from jonsmith74 : If it's true then you'll have no problem providing the data that support this. Not sure why you want to smear people who choose to serve.

http://thatotherpaper.com/austin/...we_thought

where did i smear anyone? i didn't. i'm just trying to fight this false notion that they're somehow heroic for what they do.