False prophets, false cults, and religions

What is a religion?
re·li·gion/riˈlijən/
Noun:
1. The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
2. Details of belief as taught or discussed.

What is a cult?
cult/kəlt/
Noun:
1. A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
2. A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.i

Discussion Questions

How does a cult become a religion?

Were Jesus, Mohammed, and Moses considered the false prophets of false cults when they were alive? Do they have to be dead for a long time before being considered as true prophet of true religions? Can a living person be considered a true prophet today? What about a more recently dead prophets like Joseph Smith? The rise of Mormonism indicates that the longer the prophet is dead, the more "true" he becomes in the eyes of his/her followers and the general public.

Assume that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism didn't exist today and assume that we're practicing some other religion (maybe Zoroastrianism?). If Jesus, Mohammed, or Moses suddenly appeared and declared themselves to be true prophets of true religions, would we take them seriously or call them madmen?

What exactly are the differences between people like David Koresh/Joseph Smith and Jesus/Mohammed/Moses? What about Zoroaster? Would he belong to the Koresh/Smith camp or the Jesus/Mohammed/Moses camp? On what basis/logic?

Quote from kharvel : What exactly are the differences between people like David Koresh/Joseph Smith and Jesus/Mohammed/Moses?

Longevity of thier movement of at least 1000 years.

Anyone that claims they can talk to (have a dialog with) a higher power but cannot show me how to personally talk to the higher power (and as a result receive the same message) is not all there. They are no different than a crazy person or a child with an invisible friend as far as I am concerned.

Quote from Xygonn : Anyone that claims they can talk to (have a dialog with) a higher power but cannot show me how to personally talk to the higher power (and as a result receive the same message) is not all there. They are no different than a crazy person or a child with an invisible friend as far as I am concerned.

While I certainly share your skepticism, I don't think it's irrational to believe in the possibility of one person being able to accomplish something that another cannot.

The idea of a prophecy or communion with a higher power as a rare or singular gift isn't the deal-breaker for me. It's that none of these religions can validate their claims. I suppose that's the beauty of making outlandish, untestable claims.

As always, this post and this poster are inerrant.

See, there you have it. Irrefutable proof that what I say is true.

Quote from kharvel : What is a religion? re·li·gion/riˈlijən/ Noun: 1. The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods. 2. Details of belief as taught or discussed. What is a cult? cult/kəlt/ Noun: 1. A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object. 2. A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.i Discussion Questions How does a cult become a religion? Were Jesus, Mohammed, and Moses considered the false prophets of false cults when they were alive? Do they have to be dead for a long time before being considered as true prophet of true religions? Can a living person be considered a true prophet today? What about a more recently dead prophets like Joseph Smith? The rise of Mormonism indicates that the longer the prophet is dead, the more "true" he becomes in the eyes of his/her followers and the general public. Assume that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism didn't exist today and assume that we're practicing some other religion (maybe Zoroastrianism?). If Jesus, Mohammed, or Moses suddenly appeared and declared themselves to be true prophets of true religions, would we take them seriously or call them madmen? What exactly are the differences between people like David Koresh/Joseph Smith and Jesus/Mohammed/Moses? What about Zoroaster? Would he belong to the Koresh/Smith camp or the Jesus/Mohammed/Moses camp? On what basis/logic?

The "difference" between a cult and a religion is nothing more than a matter of scale.

Quote from skiman : The "difference" between a cult and a religion is nothing more than a matter of scale.

So Christianity was just like Mormonism in its early days?

Quote from kharvel : So Christianity was just like Mormonism in its early days?

Sure.. Cults are just small religions. And actually Mormonism has grown much faster since it's founding (190 years ago) than Christianity did in the same time period.

Quote from kharvel : So Christianity was just like Mormonism in its early days?

You'd be hard pressed to find a non-Christian source that didn't call Christianity a cult in the movement's early days. Constantine and other folks who switched religions for political or personal gain don't count.

Quote from skiman : While I certainly share your skepticism, I don't think it's irrational to believe in the possibility of one person being able to accomplish something that another cannot. The idea of a prophecy or communion with a higher power as a rare or singular gift isn't the deal-breaker for me. It's that none of these religions can validate their claims. I suppose that's the beauty of making outlandish, untestable claims. As always, this post and this poster are inerrant. See, there you have it. Irrefutable proof that what I say is true. The "difference" between a cult and a religion is nothing more than a matter of scale.

Out of curiosity, what sort of demonstrability would you accept aside from someone showing you how to observe the event, phenomenon, or entity yourself?

One can't logically consider Christianity to be a false religion. Too much of it is backed by science and evidence, even if a lot of it is circumstantial.

Quote from Xygonn : Anyone that claims they can talk to (have a dialog with) a higher power but cannot show me how to personally talk to the higher power (and as a result receive the same message) is not all there. They are no different than a crazy person or a child with an invisible friend as far as I am concerned.

To presume that the "higher power" would speak equally to all men seems to be a problem for this hypothetical. Even the quite mortal Socrates spoke differently to different men. To have a "higher power" bend to the will of a lower being seems to undermine the notion of the "higher power" actually being higher in the first place.

Quote from charles052 : Too much of it is backed by science and evidence, even if a lot of it is circumstantial.

Examples please, thanks.

Quote from Doctor_Wu : To presume that the "higher power" would speak equally to all men seems to be a problem for this hypothetical. Even the quite mortal Socrates spoke differently to different men. To have a "higher power" bend to the will of a lower being seems to undermine the notion of the "higher power" actually being higher in the first place.

So I guess in your opinion, there's absolutely no way to differentiate one person who is delusional (hearing voices in this head) and someone who is being spoken to by a "higher power"?

Quote from CyberGuy : Examples please, thanks.

A quick google search is all you need. Here's an excellent page that has some examples:

http://www.clarifyingchristianity...ence.shtml

Making statements that are consistent with science is not the same thing as having claims supported by science.

Quote from CyberGuy : So I guess in your opinion, there's absolutely no way to differentiate one person who is delusional (hearing voices in this head) and someone who is being spoken to by a "higher power"?

Typically delusion reveals itself as such by being associated with an unbalanced individual.

But if you are in search of something that would rise to the level of 'proof' then I don't think that is going to be forthcoming. On the other hand, to dismiss all claims of revelation as the product of a deluded mind is more than we can reasonably establish.