Gun Control

Since my earnest attempt at getting a deeper societal issues seems to have digressed into a gun control debate, I'll just start a gun control debate here in an attempt to return that thread to the topic in the OP.

Two schools of thought seem to be:

1) Ban guns and it will decrease violence.

2) Arm victims (or at least don't forcibly disarm them) and it will decrease violence.

Option 1 has been tried and hasn't worked--nor is the causal relationship purported born out in the peer-reviewed literature. Moreover, most mass shootings (Columbine, VT, Aurora movie theater, today's elementary school, etc.) occur where guns are already banned (not to mention the fact that violence is illegal. It would seem the plethora of laws against mass shootings aren't effective, as is supported in the literature. Why, then, is the knee-jerk reaction to pass more of them? It seems to be the "feel-good" "we did something" response, but it doesn't make sense.

Option 2 has more evidence behind it. Most of the research either shows no causal relationship between gun control laws and violent crime or suggests that banning guns merely selectively disarms victims, thereby leading to more violent crime.

While I would support option 2 over option 1, I think there's a deeper societal ill here that has nothing to do with inanimate objects, be they guns, knives, or bows/arrows.

I agree with OP.

America's gun control laws are the loosest in the developed world and its rate of gun-related homicide is the highest........ Of the world's 23 "rich" countries, the U.S. gun-related murder rate is almost 20 times that of the other 22.

In 2008, the U.S. had over 12,000 firearm-related homicides. All of Japan experienced only 11, fewer than were killed at the Aurora shooting alone.

Just one thing - guns cannot be uninvented. "Ban" them and, as the saying goes, only criminals will have guns. I am not necessarily for the armament of everyone, but if teachers (etc) chose to be armed, so be it.

Going back to Patrick Purdy and before, many/most mass murderers have been missed or ignored by the system, though they should and could have been dealt with.

Instead, many choose to focus on the instrument they used, and enacting more laws.

I've posted several times about Julio González, who after a fight with his girlfriend, murdered 87 people [wikipedia.org] with a plastic container of gasoline in 1990, far more than any have killed with firearms. Most have never heard of his crime.

If I suggested restricting access to gasoline, and regulating it's possession and use to the level that we currently do with firearms, my sanity would be questioned. Yet many don't see the similar folly in the gun control argument.

Oh well. It's glorious out, and the slopes await. This thread will just take the same turn as the previous ones.

Guns are too much a part of the American "culture" for a complete ban to be feasible, even if it were true that banning guns would prevent things like the recent shootings from happening. One does not get to close Pandora's box.

Quote from AlfredoGarcia : Since my earnest attempt at getting a deeper societal issues seems to have digressed into a gun control debate,

Not sure what's much deeper a societal issue than someone walking into an elementary school and shooting a bunch of kids in cold blood. Moreover, I think your "earnest" attempt at discussion was a disingenuous attempt to try and ignore what really happened today.

Quote from jeba9999 : America's gun control laws are the loosest in the developed world and its rate of gun-related homicide is the highest........ Of the world's 23 "rich" countries, the U.S. gun-related murder rate is almost 20 times that of the other 22. In 2008, the U.S. had over 12,000 firearm-related homicides. All of Japan experienced only 11, fewer than were killed at the Aurora shooting alone.

That's a pretty invalid comparison.

Quote from jeba9999 : America's gun control laws are the loosest in the developed world and its rate of gun-related homicide is the highest........ Of the world's 23 "rich" countries, the U.S. gun-related murder rate is almost 20 times that of the other 22. In 2008, the U.S. had over 12,000 firearm-related homicides. All of Japan experienced only 11, fewer than were killed at the Aurora shooting alone.

How many firearm-related homicides did Mexico have, with their complete gun ban?

Quote from Frogstar : That's a pretty invalid comparison.

In 2008 the United Kingdom had 0.03 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants; for comparison,.. the figure for the United States was 2.98

Quote from PaintTheSkyGrey : How many firearm-related homicides did Mexico have, with their complete gun ban?

Canada had 179 firearm related homicides in 2008 compared to over 12,000 in the USA in the same time period

Quote from Elmer : Going back to Patrick Purdy and before, many/most mass murderers have been missed or ignored by the system, though they should and could have been dealt with. Instead, many choose to focus on the instrument they used, and enacting more laws. I've posted several times about Julio González, who after a fight with his girlfriend, murdered 87 people [wikipedia.org] with a plastic container of gasoline in 1990, far more than any have killed with firearms. Most have never heard of his crime. If I suggested restricting access to gasoline, and regulating it's possession and use to the level that we currently do with firearms, my sanity would be questioned. Yet many don't see the similar folly in the gun control argument. Oh well. It's glorious out, and the slopes await. This thread will just take the same turn as the previous ones.

Gasoline is a critical component of commerce. Restrictions on its purchase/ownership would negatively effect commerce. Banning it would result in complete societal collapse.

Banning guns would not result in complete societal collapse.

Quote from jeba9999 : In 2008 the United Kingdom had 0.03 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants; for comparison,.. the figure for the United States was 2.98

And what was that number in the UK pre-ban?

Quote : Canada had 179 firearm related homicides in 2008 compared to over 12,000 in the USA in the same time period

And Mexico?

Quote from PaintTheSkyGrey : How many firearm-related homicides did Mexico have, with their complete gun ban?

How is your inquiry even relevant..unless you also believe that Mexican law enforcement is on par with US law enforcement.

Quote from paperboy05 : And what was that number in the UK pre-ban? And Mexico?

Hint: Mexican law enforcement is corrupt up the azz...so obviously any "gun ban" would go unenforced if the Mexican cops are paid off.

Quote from roughnready : Not sure what's much deeper a societal issue than someone walking into an elementary school and shooting a bunch of kids in cold blood. Moreover, I think your "earnest" attempt at discussion was a disingenuous attempt to try and ignore what really happened today.

No, it was my genuine reaction of absolute horror, disgust, and anger at these horrific tragedies and my tiring of it degrading into a debate about the second amendment. This horrific violence is a deeper ill. To argue that if guns were illegal this psycho would've been a normal contributing member of society doesn't make sense. He could just as well have done what the guy in China today did with a knife to 22 children [courant.com]. The ill is with the person and with society, not with an inanimate object.

I'm trying to get at the former and actually figure out a way to remove the reward for these psychos. I do believe there's a reward somehow in how we treat them that makes others want to follow suit.