President Hugo Chávez was a Hero

Quote from xveganrox : But President Chavez was at the helm the whole time, and it was through his leadership that the standard of living massively increased during his presidency.

GDP increased roughly the same percentage in PR during the same period. Did the standard of living increase because of Chavez or in spite of?

Quote from paperboy05 : GDP increased roughly the same percentage in PR during the same period. Did the standard of living increase because of Chavez or in spite of?

To anyone that's not a Socialist fanboy, the answer is obvious.

The standard of living increased a fraction of what it should have, given the windfall oil profits of the time.

Quote from Elmer : To anyone that's not a Socialist fanboy, the answer is obvious. The standard of living increased a fraction of what it should have, given the windfall oil profits of the time.

Because PR and Venezuela are so comparable. They both receive no US support, they both share borders with violent Colombia, they both are blessed with a strong tourism industry. Your point is entirely valid and not just made out of spite.

Quote from xveganrox : Because PR and Venezuela are so comparable. They both receive no US support, they both share borders with violent Colombia, they both are blessed with a strong tourism industry.

And Puerto Rico has large quantities of oil underneath it's soil...

Do you have any other excuses as to why Venezuela achieved merely moderate success (success similar to other countries over the same time) when taking into account the vast oil monies they should have had?

Quote from xveganrox : The only thing that I can honestly compare it to is the Venezuela of 1998. Do you believe that the Venezuela of today is worse than the Venezuela of 1998 was, with the facts and information I have provided?

Do you realize how difficult it would be for a political leader that's as powerful as the executive is in Venezuela who is also sitting on the oil that Venezuela has to make a country worse off after 15 years? [URL=http://www.transparency.org/cpi2011/results#CountryResults] My God, you'd have to be one of the 10 most politically corrupt countries on the planet to pull that off.[URL]

Seriously though, it's not that I think that country is worse off than it was 15 years ago, its just that's not the standard of how I judge effective leadership. A country is supposed to progress. When a country trails behind other countries in progression despite vast sums of oil, I see an issue.

Quote from loop610bob : But hey, at least Venezuela has an AK-47 factory now. And see? I didn't even bring up Tupamaros, La Piedrita or the FBLN. Or the Constitutional bulls#$%. Or the incredible corruption. Or the jailing of dissidents. Or the firing of how many public employees for signing the petition? Or the Supreme Court justice he fired from his death bed for disagreeing with him. Or the fact that he built less public housing in his 14 years than any president before him. Or Leopoldo Lopez. Or the 2010 elections. Or the radio/newspaper closings. Or the comically stupid arms purchases.

Didn't bring up the rise of institutionalized anti-semitism, either.

Chavez gave people scraps and loud speeches, while he and his friends plundered the country.

Coming from a country which suffered a huge cult of personality while we starved to death, its always amazing how a good speech can distract people from the problems in their lives and get them to support the same people who are keeping them down.

While our food and heating were rationed, the politicians and their friends enjoyed the fine life.

Quote from Xygonn : I wouldn't disagree with thikthird on this one. Venezuela is the one of the best communist style countries.

They're "the best" until they start massacring their own people or/and begin wars to sustain the failing economy. All communist countries do that at a certain period of their life cycle. Venezuela is lucky with high oil prices that they don't slaughter its own people.

Quote from Elmer : Thank you for taking the time to write that. Even if it will be dismissed by the "anyone that hates America is my hero" crowd.

It's funny how liberals (social democrats) turned out on neo-commies in this thread.
Not all yet lost in this country...

Quote from Dr. J : Unfortunately these guys are like roaches - someone else (near carbon copy) to stand in when "dear leader" croaks.

Quote from MISHNAH : Chavez gave people scraps and loud speeches, while he and his friends plundered the country. Coming from a country which suffered a huge cult of personality while we starved to death, its always amazing how a good speech can distract people from the problems in their lives and get them to support the same people who are keeping them down. While our food and heating were rationed, the politicians and their friends enjoyed the fine life.

Quote from procop : It's funny how liberals (social democrats) turned out on neo-commies in this thread. Not all yet lost in this country...

I think it's funny how I opened this post with cited facts, and a bunch of neo-cons jumped on to contradict me with their knee-jerk feelings on "communism" (IE any government system other than their hypothetical "free market" corporate-capitalism which doesn't actually exist anywhere) and information gleaned from anecdotes of something they might have once heard on cable news.

Sometimes when the facts disagree with them, I guess people have to resort to dogma. I suppose maybe it's easier to maintain a Cold War mindset of us versus them than to recognize that one solution may not work for all situations.

Quote from xveganrox : Sometimes when the facts disagree with them, I guess people have to resort to dogma. I suppose maybe it's easier to maintain a Cold War mindset of us versus them than to recognize that one solution may not work for all situations.

Is that why you've been ignoring Venezuela's similar growth to Puerto Rico while sitting on huge swaths of oil and having vastly more total monies to spend?

They grew at such a rate while having the tools to utterly prosper compared to similar latin american countries.

Quote from procop : They're "the best" until they start massacring their own people or/and begin wars to sustain the failing economy. All communist countries do that at a certain period of their life cycle. Venezuela is lucky with high oil prices that they don't slaughter its own people. It's funny how liberals (social democrats) turned out on neo-commies in this thread. Not all yet lost in this country...

No, you're a "neo-con", didn't you know?

Quote from xveganrox : I think it's funny how I opened this post with cited facts, and a bunch of neo-cons jumped on to contradict me with their knee-jerk feelings on "communism" (IE any government system other than their hypothetical "free market" corporate-capitalism which doesn't actually exist anywhere) and information gleaned from anecdotes of something they might have once heard on cable news. Sometimes when the facts disagree with them, I guess people have to resort to dogma. I suppose maybe it's easier to maintain a Cold War mindset of us versus them than to recognize that one solution may not work for all situations.

You are BLINDED by the "nice" things Chavez did, and do not realize the bad things that he did concurrently. By focusing on the few good things he did, you fail to look at his entire legacy and see the dirty, rotten things he did to his people.

Back in Romania, Ceausescu gave us free homes, salaries, a job, and controlled food prices. At the same time, they also stripped the land and sold our food to other countries. Oh sure, his speeches were grrrreat, but that doesnt make up for NO food and NO heating! Oh and we had virtually no rights either.

His Christmas present in 1989 was a firing squad. Do not compare me to the neo-cons, ive lived through enough real shit to know what im talking about!

Its really sad to see people in a free country worship and idolize people who rip their own people off. Vegan, feel free to visit Venezuela or any other tyrannical or communist country and talk with the locals, your opinion would like turn a good 160 degrees, if not more.

Quote from MISHNAH : You are BLINDED by the "nice" things Chavez did, and do not realize the bad things that he did concurrently. By focusing on the few good things he did, you fail to look at his entire legacy and see the dirty, rotten things he did to his people. Back in Romania, Ceausescu gave us free homes, salaries, a job, and controlled food prices. At the same time, they also stripped the land and sold our food to other countries. Oh sure, his speeches were grrrreat, but that doesnt make up for NO food and NO heating! Oh and we had virtually no rights either. His Christmas present in 1989 was a firing squad. Do not compare me to the neo-cons, ive lived through enough real shit to know what im talking about! Its really sad to see people in a free country worship and idolize people who rip their own people off. Vegan, feel free to visit Venezuela or any other tyrannical or communist country and talk with the locals, your opinion would like turn a good 160 degrees, if not more.

President Chavez didn't gift anyone with a firing squad, and while Venezuela certainly doesn't have the standard of living that fully developed North American and European nations do, it has come a long way in a short time. I don't know much about Ceausescu, but based on what you're saying there are very few similarities.

I don't worship or idolize any world leaders. I've been to Venezuela and spoken to locals (Caracas, while President Chavez was in power) and the overall impression I got was that their opinion of him was mostly pretty good, and that he'd brought political stability and helped reduce starvation tremendously. It actually *did* turn my opinion around. Prior to that experience I generally believed the mainstream press about how awful he was, but after that experience I did my own research and found that things weren't so one-sided. I may be back in Caracas in the near future which will allow me to gauge the reaction of the locals to his death, but based on what I've seen and heard previously he'll be missed a great deal by many Venezuelans.

After reading this entire thread, I have learned a lot: in particular, OP and thik-whatever are completely delusional and more than mildly retarded.