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Real estate purchase - opinions on seller's request to fund repairs
December 23, 2021 at
11:46 AM
Thread Details
Last Edited by Dr. J December 23, 2021 at 11:51 AM
This might be tight but what the heck. I know it's long but a bunch of stuff needs to be explained.
It's a long story and I'm sure some of you have seen my various posts about things, but about 3 weeks ago DW and I put an offer on another place. It's a rather white elephant place, mostly because the architecture is different (not ugly) and it's pretty big (6 br). It's an older place (1987) but looks very well kept (apparently the owner is an interior designer). Some background just because it's relevant - it had been on the market at various price points for over a year, and had been taken off/put back on at least once (common tactic to "refresh" listings). We put an offer on it rather quickly, because after looking at it we were told (through realtors) that someone else had put an offer the sellers were "comfortable with accepting" (obviously below asking but how far we do not know), so we offered them full asking.
The schedule was tight because I was out of town on business the following week, so I rushed to get deposits together, and arrange inspections which happened 4 days after the offer. In the grand scheme of things not much came out of the inspection in the actual house other than stuff you'd expect in an older house, and tradesman concurred with the inspector's observations). That is, except for the septic - which the pump/inspector (different inspector than the home) indicated the tank had cracked and was leaking blackwater. It'd been like that for some time (cracks were not new). The cracks are so bad that the leach tanks are basically empty.
Of course this was relayed to the seller immediately (as in, they were notified before the tank was even re-covered), who acknowledged that they (again through a realtor) knew might be an issue (e.g. they probably knew about the cracked tank the last time they had it pumped). Why is this an issue? Well, the system still works just fine, doesn't flood anything which sewage etc, BUT at the very least it would need to be corrected (e.g. septic tank replaced) - towns are rather picky about septic systems working as intended. That said, there is "sewer in the neighborhood" which the sellers paid duty for, so they knew it was there. Why does this matter? It's apparently common in situations like this for towns to require failed septic systems to be instead hooked to sewer rather than repair a "failed" septic system.
So fast forward over 2 weeks - I put in a list of (frankly) a lot of throwaway stuff that I was asking to be repaired, all supported by the inspection I paid for and tradesman quotes. All in all maybe $5-$6k in stuff (most of that was minor roof fix) and several small items that cost $0 (e.g. take a photo of an electrical panel with the cover off, something that the inspector wouldn't do because there was stuff in front of it). Today the seller comes back to us and writes (condensed):
- we'll repair a couple small things (probably $500)
- to connect to sewer is $25k, we want you to pay $10k of that
I was flabbergasted. The septic/sewer thing is something they've apparently known about (e.g. that it was cracked and at the very least would need to be replaced). Also, they'd already paid their fee to the town when the sewer was brought around (got that info from town hall even before the inspection was done), so they should have known that being forced to hook up to sewer was a possibility. Further, the realtor should have known that and disclosed it ($25k is kinda a big deal), and lastly it's the town that's dictating the move to sewer, not me.
My realtor agrees with me that it's outlandish to ask me to pay for any of it, but we also agree that people don't need to be rational. They could very well say screw you, fix the septic (it's an issue that needs to be addressed before any sale) [or I guess not fix it and negotiate] and put the house back on the market. I'm not sure how much "brand new sewer connection" is a bonus for a listing, but it's pretty clear that it's not like the house got a ton of attention if it sat on the market for over a year.
Thoughts? Yes people can ask for anything, but honestly I was a tad offended by this request.
It's a long story and I'm sure some of you have seen my various posts about things, but about 3 weeks ago DW and I put an offer on another place. It's a rather white elephant place, mostly because the architecture is different (not ugly) and it's pretty big (6 br). It's an older place (1987) but looks very well kept (apparently the owner is an interior designer). Some background just because it's relevant - it had been on the market at various price points for over a year, and had been taken off/put back on at least once (common tactic to "refresh" listings). We put an offer on it rather quickly, because after looking at it we were told (through realtors) that someone else had put an offer the sellers were "comfortable with accepting" (obviously below asking but how far we do not know), so we offered them full asking.
The schedule was tight because I was out of town on business the following week, so I rushed to get deposits together, and arrange inspections which happened 4 days after the offer. In the grand scheme of things not much came out of the inspection in the actual house other than stuff you'd expect in an older house, and tradesman concurred with the inspector's observations). That is, except for the septic - which the pump/inspector (different inspector than the home) indicated the tank had cracked and was leaking blackwater. It'd been like that for some time (cracks were not new). The cracks are so bad that the leach tanks are basically empty.
Of course this was relayed to the seller immediately (as in, they were notified before the tank was even re-covered), who acknowledged that they (again through a realtor) knew might be an issue (e.g. they probably knew about the cracked tank the last time they had it pumped). Why is this an issue? Well, the system still works just fine, doesn't flood anything which sewage etc, BUT at the very least it would need to be corrected (e.g. septic tank replaced) - towns are rather picky about septic systems working as intended. That said, there is "sewer in the neighborhood" which the sellers paid duty for, so they knew it was there. Why does this matter? It's apparently common in situations like this for towns to require failed septic systems to be instead hooked to sewer rather than repair a "failed" septic system.
So fast forward over 2 weeks - I put in a list of (frankly) a lot of throwaway stuff that I was asking to be repaired, all supported by the inspection I paid for and tradesman quotes. All in all maybe $5-$6k in stuff (most of that was minor roof fix) and several small items that cost $0 (e.g. take a photo of an electrical panel with the cover off, something that the inspector wouldn't do because there was stuff in front of it). Today the seller comes back to us and writes (condensed):
- we'll repair a couple small things (probably $500)
- to connect to sewer is $25k, we want you to pay $10k of that
I was flabbergasted. The septic/sewer thing is something they've apparently known about (e.g. that it was cracked and at the very least would need to be replaced). Also, they'd already paid their fee to the town when the sewer was brought around (got that info from town hall even before the inspection was done), so they should have known that being forced to hook up to sewer was a possibility. Further, the realtor should have known that and disclosed it ($25k is kinda a big deal), and lastly it's the town that's dictating the move to sewer, not me.
My realtor agrees with me that it's outlandish to ask me to pay for any of it, but we also agree that people don't need to be rational. They could very well say screw you, fix the septic (it's an issue that needs to be addressed before any sale) [or I guess not fix it and negotiate] and put the house back on the market. I'm not sure how much "brand new sewer connection" is a bonus for a listing, but it's pretty clear that it's not like the house got a ton of attention if it sat on the market for over a year.
Thoughts? Yes people can ask for anything, but honestly I was a tad offended by this request.
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1. Yes they should have disclosed it...but often sellers do not disclose stuff and wait for the inspection report and to see what you ask for in terms of a punch list, esp. if stuff is not actually broken\still functional.
2. If the town is requiring a sewer hookup, it is what it is in that respect. I would verify what it actually costs to do the work and get quotes from private parties to verify (assuming the town does not do it) and not take the buyer's or town's word on it.
3. As to who pays for it, well that basically comes down to how badly you want the place and how badly you think the seller wants to be rid of it, because as you noted everything is negotiable and they have been sitting on it for awhile.
To give you a few examples I have run into over the years:
1. When I sold my parent's place last year (a post WW cape built in the late 1940s), it had the original furnace (worked fine, though it was hardly efficient) and a hot water heater that was almost 30 years old (also worked fine). My brother and I had been renting the place for years and decided to get rid of it, so we fixed up what needed to be fixed up to get the best bang out of it (re-painted, new moldings, re-did the floors in a couple of rooms, replaced some windows, etc.) but we left the furnace and hot water heater as I told my brother, that I am sure the buyer's home inspector is going to note it and we will get push back, but that is fine and we will give them some sort of credit and move on if that happens rather than spend money up front and try to guess how cheap we can do it and get away with it.
I figured it would cost $1000 at the time for the hot water heater and 3-5k for a new gas furnace. We got list for the place and in the end we settled for a 5k credit to the buyer for everything which included the hot water heater, furnace and a few other things they complained about. They wanted us to pay for a home buyer's guarantee, which I refused to do and the real estate agents decided to pay for that out of their commission rather than lose a sale lol.
2. When I sold my place in NJ (which was a house built in 2007 in near perfect condition) last year and moved to Florida permanently, the buyer's were a bunch of a-holes and tried to get a 9k credit from me for a broken step up to the deck and a couple of other minor things that basically amounted to maybe $500. I got so pissed off at them and knew they wanted the place since they also paid near list, I told them it was as is or they could walk and told them outright that if they asked for $500 I would have agreed to it, but because they and their attorney were being a-holes trying to gouge me and assumed I was stupid, I would not give them a penny nor would I allow them any recourse outside of as-is, take it or leave it. In the end, they took it as is with no credit for anything. Again though, I knew they liked the place and I did not care if they walked as I was not in a rush to sell.
3. When I made an offer on my place in Florida (pre-pandemic in early 2019), I did the comp lookup myself (real estate agents are worthless) and offered what I thought was fair. I also researched the seller who I found out was a doctor who had just bought another, even more expensive place and probably (I assumed) wanted to sell quickly since he was carrying a mortgage on both. They countered my offer to about 15k (dropped about 20k on their list) more than I offered and I countered 2500 more and told them that was a final offer, take it or leave it. They came back with an offer about 10k more than I offered and I flatly rejected it and told my agent I was walking and we were done. That was at about 2 PM in the afternoon. At around 10 PM that night I got a call from my agent that the seller was accepting my last offer. My agent even told me I played pretty good hard ball with the guy and read him right after the papers were signed and I sort of laughed noting that it is great to be in a position where you are not afraid to walk away. Still, good thing I got the place in hindsight since after the pandemic it has probably gone up 200+ k in value lol.
In the end, you have to make the call as to how much you want the place and how much you are willing to spend for it and where your walk away line is. If you are willing to walk away from a deal, you have a much better bargaining position and if you convey that to the other side, it puts them on the defensive. It will not get you a deal if there is none to be had or if the other side is unwilling to give nor is it in your own best interest to quibble over 10-15k if you absolutely want a home or need the deal to go through. It all comes down to your own personal needs, capability and desires in that respect. Only you can answer that obviously.
i would email the realtor and ask how long they have been representing the sellers/property and if they knew about the sewer hookup. if they did, i would report them to the state licensing agency and/or whatever real estate oversight board is out there.
i would also ask they buy home warranty for you. generally it covers stuff the breaks in the first year and isn't too pricey. i'd make a point that because they knew something was broken and didn't disclose it you need good faith/reassurance that there aren't any other things.
it is incredibly shady that they didn't disclose it and it's possible that is one of the reasons the house came off the market previously. i wouldn't be offended about it though. when it comes to property, the best advice i got was take all emotion out of it.
i would email the realtor and ask how long they have been representing the sellers/property and if they knew about the sewer hookup. if they did, i would report them to the state licensing agency and/or whatever real estate oversight board is out there.
i would also ask they buy home warranty for you. generally it covers stuff the breaks in the first year and isn't too pricey. i'd make a point that because they knew something was broken and didn't disclose it you need good faith/reassurance that there aren't any other things.
it is incredibly shady that they didn't disclose it and it's possible that is one of the reasons the house came off the market previously. i wouldn't be offended about it though. when it comes to property, the best advice i got was take all emotion out of it.
You can report the seller's agent, but it likely is just a waste of time as it gets you nothing in the end and they will just play dumb and blame the seller or produce some disclosure form from the seller that pre-dates the problem. The seller is obligated to release said info as well, but short of walking away\getting them to fix it, you really have no recourse and end up in the same place.
A friend of mine put a bid on a house in Florida and found out from his agent that the home was previously under contract and an inspection was done prior to it falling through. So he and his agent asked for a copy of that home inspection report and the seller refused to release it, insisting that my friend hire his own home inspector. Which raised all sorts of red flags as if there was a show stopper in the prior inspection report then why should a potential buyer pay for another inspection before knowing what the issue was\potentially was? So my friend passed and walked on the deal. Made no sense to me why a seller would not release relevant info and let a buyer walk as they would find out with their own inspection anyway, but people do not always behave rationally.
Real estate agents are imo basically one level above lawyers and used car salesmen. They are not supposed to collude with one another either, but we all know most of them do it all the time behind people's backs (which is why it is never a good idea to let your agent know what the max price is you are willing to go to).
It's a long story and I'm sure some of you have seen my various posts about things, but about 3 weeks ago DW and I put an offer on another place. It's a rather white elephant place, mostly because the architecture is different (not ugly) and it's pretty big (6 br). It's an older place (1987) but looks very well kept (apparently the owner is an interior designer). Some background just because it's relevant - it had been on the market at various price points for over a year, and had been taken off/put back on at least once (common tactic to "refresh" listings). We put an offer on it rather quickly, because after looking at it we were told (through realtors) that someone else had put an offer the sellers were "comfortable with accepting" (obviously below asking but how far we do not know), so we offered them full asking.
The schedule was tight because I was out of town on business the following week, so I rushed to get deposits together, and arrange inspections which happened 4 days after the offer. In the grand scheme of things not much came out of the inspection in the actual house other than stuff you'd expect in an older house, and tradesman concurred with the inspector's observations). That is, except for the septic - which the pump/inspector (different inspector than the home) indicated the tank had cracked and was leaking blackwater. It'd been like that for some time (cracks were not new). The cracks are so bad that the leach tanks are basically empty.
Of course this was relayed to the seller immediately (as in, they were notified before the tank was even re-covered), who acknowledged that they (again through a realtor) knew might be an issue (e.g. they probably knew about the cracked tank the last time they had it pumped). Why is this an issue? Well, the system still works just fine, doesn't flood anything which sewage etc, BUT at the very least it would need to be corrected (e.g. septic tank replaced) - towns are rather picky about septic systems working as intended. That said, there is "sewer in the neighborhood" which the sellers paid duty for, so they knew it was there. Why does this matter? It's apparently common in situations like this for towns to require failed septic systems to be instead hooked to sewer rather than repair a "failed" septic system.
So fast forward over 2 weeks - I put in a list of (frankly) a lot of throwaway stuff that I was asking to be repaired, all supported by the inspection I paid for and tradesman quotes. All in all maybe $5-$6k in stuff (most of that was minor roof fix) and several small items that cost $0 (e.g. take a photo of an electrical panel with the cover off, something that the inspector wouldn't do because there was stuff in front of it). Today the seller comes back to us and writes (condensed):
- we'll repair a couple small things (probably $500)
- to connect to sewer is $25k, we want you to pay $10k of that
I was flabbergasted. The septic/sewer thing is something they've apparently known about (e.g. that it was cracked and at the very least would need to be replaced). Also, they'd already paid their fee to the town when the sewer was brought around (got that info from town hall even before the inspection was done), so they should have known that being forced to hook up to sewer was a possibility. Further, the realtor should have known that and disclosed it ($25k is kinda a big deal), and lastly it's the town that's dictating the move to sewer, not me.
My realtor agrees with me that it's outlandish to ask me to pay for any of it, but we also agree that people don't need to be rational. They could very well say screw you, fix the septic (it's an issue that needs to be addressed before any sale) [or I guess not fix it and negotiate] and put the house back on the market. I'm not sure how much "brand new sewer connection" is a bonus for a listing, but it's pretty clear that it's not like the house got a ton of attention if it sat on the market for over a year.
Thoughts? Yes people can ask for anything, but honestly I was a tad offended by this request.
worthless market. I'd just go buy land and build it myself don't buy these shit holes let them all rot instead.
Houses are NOT A SLICKDEAL RIGHT NOW.
in fact a worthless purchase unless you really need it.
if single live in car save rent money and buy land later to build on.
best thing you can do unless you have a decent paying job at the location DO NOT GO THERE.
Only reason to stay anywhere is because of friends and family. without those keeping you there the location is worthless.
if you work MCD job GTFO of the location and walk not worth it.
As I said the house has been on the market for over a year in some fashion or another, either price reduced a few times and most recently technically off the market for a few months then back on at the same price - I am assuming that's just a refresh OR different agent (could be the reason for the 3 month wait).
Regardless, my final email to my agent (who then filters that to the seller's agent) was basically that they knew about it, shame on them for not fixing it proactively (and they knew the sewer app was paid for so they also should have known if their septic failed, the town would make them connect), and that a functioning waste system is not a sale point. I believe she actually told them (or rather the other agent) that they're not going to put it back on the market hoping to get another $10k and somehow advertise that the shitter's new.
TLDR is she (my agent) called them on their bullshit and they came back basically accepting what I requested, sans the roof work, since 1) we'd have to replace it within a few years anyway and 2) I've already had an inspector (2 actually) and an actual roofing guy look at it and they both said it's in good shape for its age so the repairs aren't really necessary.
I'm glad I got the tradesman opinions though, because the inspectors basically just walk through everything and point out stuff that looks odd - but note that doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong, at least to the trained eye.