Joined May 2008
Knowledge is power
Forum Thread
"Would you like to leave a tip"? Is it time to end tipping and make business owners pay minimum wage, or more?
December 22, 2022 at
07:18 AM
Saw this on Linkedin and wondered what the SD community thought.
Looking at the slavery origins of tipping, I believe it's still used to exploit desperate people today. I don't see any reason why a business owner should be allowed to pay someone less than the federal minimum wage, it seems purely exploitative to me. I think the business owners know there will always be some starving college student or desperate single mother who needs the money so bad they'll accept a shitty deal...and shame on our legislators for allowing it to continue.
Now we're seeing situations where people that go to pickup a coffee or pizza are faced with an automatic tip that's been added to the order, and they have to manually choose "No Tip" if they don't want to pay more money for the same item (for absolutely no reason). To me it seems like a challenge, a guilt trip, to force the consumer to "take the money out of the hands" of the starving college student or mother; a way of shifting the burden of blame from the cheap business owner to the consumer.
As someone who is in their 30's, having a tip automatically added to a pickup order is new...I've lived in many places in this country and have never encountered this before the last year or two. My understanding has always been that if you sit down and are served, you should tip (unless the service is really bad), and if you don't want to tip, pickup the order and leave. Am I the crazy one here?
When I reflect on why this ancient system is still allowed to exist...when I ask myself "which group of people is allowing this problematic scenario to continue"...to me it's the cheap ass business owners. Why should every industry have to abide by the federal min wage, except restaurant and hospitality? Why should those two industries be allowed to pass the cost of paying their employees onto the customer? Someone in the Linkedin thread asked "Would you rather pay $6 for a coffee, or $4 and a $2 tip"? I think the purpose of the question was to ask if they'd rather just see a higher menu price with the tip already factored in...I thought to myself, yes, that would be so much simpler...then I asked myself why that wasn't already being done...I concluded that it's because the business owner thinks his sales would drop if he had to raise his prices...which begs the question, if he can't keep his business open while complying with the federal minimum wage...should he be allowed to continue his business? I say no.
What say you?
"The option to tip is seemingly everywhere today, but the practice has a troubled history in the United States.
Tipping spread after the Civil War as an exploitative measure to keep down [npr.org] wages of newly-freed slaves in service occupations. Pullman was the most notable for its tipping policies. The railroad company hired thousands of Black porters, but paid them low wages and forced them to rely on tips to make a living.
Critics of tipping argued that it created an imbalance between customers and workers, and several states passed laws in the early 1900s to ban the practice.
In "The Itching Palm," a 1916 diatribe on tipping in America, writer William Scott said that tipping was "un-American" [npr.org]and argued that "the relation of a man giving a tip and a man accepting it is as undemocratic as the relation of master and slave."
[cnn.com]
But tipping service workers was essentially built into law by the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act, which created the federal minimum wage that excluded restaurant and hospitality workers. This allowed the tipping system to proliferate in these industries."
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/17/bu...index.html
Looking at the slavery origins of tipping, I believe it's still used to exploit desperate people today. I don't see any reason why a business owner should be allowed to pay someone less than the federal minimum wage, it seems purely exploitative to me. I think the business owners know there will always be some starving college student or desperate single mother who needs the money so bad they'll accept a shitty deal...and shame on our legislators for allowing it to continue.
Now we're seeing situations where people that go to pickup a coffee or pizza are faced with an automatic tip that's been added to the order, and they have to manually choose "No Tip" if they don't want to pay more money for the same item (for absolutely no reason). To me it seems like a challenge, a guilt trip, to force the consumer to "take the money out of the hands" of the starving college student or mother; a way of shifting the burden of blame from the cheap business owner to the consumer.
As someone who is in their 30's, having a tip automatically added to a pickup order is new...I've lived in many places in this country and have never encountered this before the last year or two. My understanding has always been that if you sit down and are served, you should tip (unless the service is really bad), and if you don't want to tip, pickup the order and leave. Am I the crazy one here?
When I reflect on why this ancient system is still allowed to exist...when I ask myself "which group of people is allowing this problematic scenario to continue"...to me it's the cheap ass business owners. Why should every industry have to abide by the federal min wage, except restaurant and hospitality? Why should those two industries be allowed to pass the cost of paying their employees onto the customer? Someone in the Linkedin thread asked "Would you rather pay $6 for a coffee, or $4 and a $2 tip"? I think the purpose of the question was to ask if they'd rather just see a higher menu price with the tip already factored in...I thought to myself, yes, that would be so much simpler...then I asked myself why that wasn't already being done...I concluded that it's because the business owner thinks his sales would drop if he had to raise his prices...which begs the question, if he can't keep his business open while complying with the federal minimum wage...should he be allowed to continue his business? I say no.
What say you?
"The option to tip is seemingly everywhere today, but the practice has a troubled history in the United States.
Tipping spread after the Civil War as an exploitative measure to keep down [npr.org] wages of newly-freed slaves in service occupations. Pullman was the most notable for its tipping policies. The railroad company hired thousands of Black porters, but paid them low wages and forced them to rely on tips to make a living.
Critics of tipping argued that it created an imbalance between customers and workers, and several states passed laws in the early 1900s to ban the practice.
In "The Itching Palm," a 1916 diatribe on tipping in America, writer William Scott said that tipping was "un-American" [npr.org]and argued that "the relation of a man giving a tip and a man accepting it is as undemocratic as the relation of master and slave."
[cnn.com]
But tipping service workers was essentially built into law by the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act, which created the federal minimum wage that excluded restaurant and hospitality workers. This allowed the tipping system to proliferate in these industries."
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/17/bu...index.html
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I will tip for traditionally topped services (dine-in restaurant, taxis, hotels, etc...) since their pay structure is based on it.
I do not tip when I have a just standard order from a role that typically is not tipped. If I do takeout and I just have a normal item, I'm not tipping. Maybe if I had a huge order or very specific instructions/customizations, but not for regular orders. I happily select $0 and go on my way. I will not help businesses unnecessarily expand tipping into other areas.
Looking at the slavery origins of tipping, I believe it's still used to exploit desperate people today. I don't see any reason why a business owner should be allowed to pay someone less than the federal minimum wage, it seems purely exploitative to me. I think the business owners know there will always be some starving college student or desperate single mother who needs the money so bad they'll accept a shitty deal...and shame on our legislators for allowing it to continue.
Now we're seeing situations where people that go to pickup a coffee or pizza are faced with an automatic tip that's been added to the order, and they have to manually choose "No Tip" if they don't want to pay more money for the same item (for absolutely no reason). To me it seems like a challenge, a guilt trip, to force the consumer to "take the money out of the hands" of the starving college student or mother; a way of shifting the burden of blame from the cheap business owner to the consumer.
As someone who is in their 30's, having a tip automatically added to a pickup order is new...I've lived in many places in this country and have never encountered this before the last year or two. My understanding has always been that if you sit down and are served, you should tip (unless the service is really bad), and if you don't want to tip, pickup the order and leave. Am I the crazy one here?
When I reflect on why this ancient system is still allowed to exist...when I ask myself "which group of people is allowing this problematic scenario to continue"...to me it's the cheap ass business owners. Why should every industry have to abide by the federal min wage, except restaurant and hospitality? Why should those two industries be allowed to pass the cost of paying their employees onto the customer? Someone in the Linkedin thread asked "Would you rather pay $6 for a coffee, or $4 and a $2 tip"? I think the purpose of the question was to ask if they'd rather just see a higher menu price with the tip already factored in...I thought to myself, yes, that would be so much simpler...then I asked myself why that wasn't already being done...I concluded that it's because the business owner thinks his sales would drop if he had to raise his prices...which begs the question, if he can't keep his business open while complying with the federal minimum wage...should he be allowed to continue his business? I say no.
What say you?
"The option to tip is seemingly everywhere today, but the practice has a troubled history in the United States.
Tipping spread after the Civil War as an exploitative measure to keep down [npr.org] wages of newly-freed slaves in service occupations. Pullman was the most notable for its tipping policies. The railroad company hired thousands of Black porters, but paid them low wages and forced them to rely on tips to make a living.
Critics of tipping argued that it created an imbalance between customers and workers, and several states passed laws in the early 1900s to ban the practice.
In "The Itching Palm," a 1916 diatribe on tipping in America, writer William Scott said that tipping was "un-American" [npr.org]and argued that "the relation of a man giving a tip and a man accepting it is as undemocratic as the relation of master and slave."
[cnn.com]
But tipping service workers was essentially built into law by the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act, which created the federal minimum wage that excluded restaurant and hospitality workers. This allowed the tipping system to proliferate in these industries."
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/17/bu...index.html
The post reminded me of college days from long ago. I was working at the university and a lumber yard. The lumber yard paid $2 per hour, minimum wage at the time. Because schools didn't have to pay minimum wage, my pay from school was $1.60. At the same time, my friend's very pretty sister worked as a waitress at a hotel restaurant. Not a strip bar or anything like that. A family place. She regularly made over $100 in tips in one day. Often more. Looks aside, she was indeed a hard worker with a good attitude. She was definitely not exploited. Had she been paid what I made, her parents could never have afforded to put their four kids through college.
I'm sure others will post stories of different experiences but that goes to my real message. Tipping should be voluntary and commensurate with perceived service. It's offensive to see establishments automatically add tips when in reality the true levels of service likely vary. The best tips that I've left were situations where the person did a really good job and I wanted to reward that behavior. Like giving Christmas gifts, it should make you feel good. That's a far cry from tipping out of pity.
...before or after discounts?
...before or after getting shitty service?
I uh chose "other" because the celery option was not listed.
I will tip for traditionally topped services (dine-in restaurant, taxis, hotels, etc...) since their pay structure is based on it.
I do not tip when I have a just standard order from a role that typically is not tipped. If I do takeout and I just have a normal item, I'm not tipping. Maybe if I had a huge order or very specific instructions/customizations, but not for regular orders. I happily select $0 and go on my way. I will not help businesses unnecessarily expand tipping into other areas.
Agreed
The post reminded me of college days from long ago. I was working at the university and a lumber yard. The lumber yard paid $2 per hour, minimum wage at the time. Because schools didn't have to pay minimum wage, my pay from school was $1.60. At the same time, my friend's very pretty sister worked as a waitress at a hotel restaurant. Not a strip bar or anything like that. A family place. She regularly made over $100 in tips in one day. Often more. Looks aside, she was indeed a hard worker with a good attitude. She was definitely not exploited. Had she been paid what I made, her parents could never have afforded to put their four kids through college.
IMO this isn't really a good endorsement of tipping...I don't think anyone is denying that attractive women with great "assets" will receive good money in tips from men trying to get in their pants...anyone that's been to a strip club understands this concept...that still doesn't excuse the business owner from paying them less than the federal minimum wage IMO...and what about people that aren't that attractive? I'm confused by the last sentence in this paragraph...did the hot girl you knew make enough in tips to put her and her 3 other siblings through college?
It's not tipping I believe in. It's overtipping.
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I always think of the scene from Reservoir Dogs
I was thinking of the quote from To kill a mocking bird when the boy was offered a 5 cent tip to bust up a chifforobe. WTF is a chifforobe?? This is America, speak English mfuker!!
IMO this isn't really a good endorsement of tipping...I don't think anyone is denying that attractive women with great "assets" will receive good money in tips from men trying to get in their pants...anyone that's been to a strip club understands this concept...that still doesn't excuse the business owner from paying them less than the federal minimum wage IMO...and what about people that aren't that attractive? I'm confused by the last sentence in this paragraph...did the hot girl you knew make enough in tips to put her and her 3 other siblings through college?
Agreed, business owners should pay hot girls a living wage, and if horny guys want to voluntarily give them extra money to try and win their favor, so be it.
The college I attended didn't pay minimum wage because the law didn't require it. Same with certain businesses. Right or wrong, it's how the legislative process works in our country. Over time, such legislatures seem to have increasingly forgotten that their purpose is supposed to represent the people and not just donors. That's why I support term limits and professional politicians despise them.
What law compelled the employees to actually agree to take the job that pays less than the fed or state min wage???
Besides working in a bar or food venue...
The Sales Industry will typically pay a BASE salary that is usually CRAP wages* PLUS Commision.
Folks take those jobs hopful they will make their quota's but if they don't, all they have is the base salary, which is probably not enough to live on for their geographic location.
Why is this model "Fair and/or Legal" ?
*won't debate if it makes minimum wage or not.
Awesome movie!!!
...and another Lounge tipping thread
Awesome movie!!!
...and another Lounge tipping thread