Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus stop bullying

I am somewhat torn by this.
I believe in self defense, and I believe this was self defense, but stabbing the guy 12 times seems like too much.
Then again, people will do crazy things when backed into a corner.
Once you feel threatened enough to actually get the gumption to stab someone in self defense, you're probably in an unpredictable mindset, in a fight or flight mode if you will.

One thing is for sure, that kid wont be bullying anyone ever again.
Hopefully those that witnessed it got the message as well.
Don't bully people or it might backfire in your face.


http://www.naplesnews.com/news/20...er=popular

Quote : NAPLES — A 15-year-old who fatally stabbed his school mate will no longer face criminal prosecution. A judge’s ruling, made public Tuesday, granted a motion to dismiss the second-degree murder charge against Jorge Saavedra in the death of 16-year-old Dylan Nuno on the grounds that he acted in self-defense under Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law. The State Attorney’s Office has indicated that it will not appeal the ruling.

Quote : In a nine-page document released Tuesday by the State Attorney’s Office, Brodie stated that by getting off the bus several stops before the location where the fight was to happen, Saavedra “demonstrated that, with or without a knife, (he) had no desire to fight with Dylan Nuno.” Accompanied by several students, Dylan Nuno, a junior, followed Saavedra, a freshman, off the bus. He then punched him in the back of the head, according to court documents and testimony. Saavedra attempted to get away once, witnesses said. He then stabbed Dylan Nuno 12 times in the chest and abdomen. Two of the blows caused fatal wounds, including one that nicked his heart. In her decision, signed Dec. 30, 2011, the judge said Saavedra had “no duty to retreat” and was “legally entitled to meet force with force, even deadly force.” “The defendant was in a place where he had a right to be and was not acting unlawfully. He had more than enough reason to believe he was in danger of death or great bodily harm ... (He) was under attack from the first punch to the back of his head until he stabbed Dylan Nuno.”

im pretty sure unleashing pent up anger is not a pretty sight...

Pretty sure murdering someone over bullying is overkill... Kid should still go to prison, otherwise what make him any special then what happned in Colombine. Bullying doesn't justify murder. Otherwise there will be plenty of dead people

The kid who did the stabbing CLEARLY didn't want any part of that fight. The other kid hit him in the back of the head. WTH. I'm not saying the kid that died got what he deserved and that 12 times isn't a bit much but who knows if it was the 1st one that knicked his heart or the last. Personally I feel that you should be able to defend yourself and if that means you take out the person that won't leave you alone than so be it.

Now if the kid showed up to the fight and whipped out the knife to begin with I'd have a completely different opinion but this kid was defending himself and probably just had a bit of a rage attack. Cops are let off the hook all the time for that and they are trained how to not let it take control of them so why not some freshman kid...

Maybe it's just me but if someone were to break in my house at night and I got the upper hand I'm pretty sure I wouldn't stop until they were more than subdued. I don't think it would even be a conscious decision either. I have NO idea what the intruder has and I sure as hell am not giving them the slightest chance whatsoever to injure me or my family.

Quote from Ryu-bom : im pretty sure unleashing pent up anger is not a pretty sight... Pretty sure murdering someone over bullying is overkill... Kid should still go to prison, otherwise what make him any special then what happned in Colombine. Bullying doesn't justify murder. Otherwise there will be plenty of dead people

You can't compare this to columbine.
This kid was punched in the back of his head and immediately defended himself.
He did not go home and plan to ambush and murder the guy later on on.
There's a HUGE difference.

I just had this discussion on FB with a local radio DJ. I think it's extreme force. It's above and beyond what I would say is a reasonable self defense. If the kid is bigger, pick up a stick or a branch. Something non-lethal but would get the point across. But, a knife? It's saddening that people are ok with this.

Bullying has been around for ages. It will always be around. We need to teach our kids how to handle it like my father did for me. This sets a nasty precedent for kids being bullied. "Go ahead, stab your bully!"

Quote from LivninSC : Maybe it's just me but if someone were to break in my house at night and I got the upper hand I'm pretty sure I wouldn't stop until they were more than subdued. I don't think it would even be a conscious decision either. I have NO idea what the intruder has and I sure as hell am not giving them the slightest chance whatsoever to injure me or my family.

What in the world does that have to do with 2 young kids fighting at a bus stop? Totally different situation.

Quote from Mavtech : What in the world does that have to do with 2 young kids fighting at a bus stop? Totally different situation.

You can't make the link whatsoever? I would be defending myself. This kid was defending himself. If someone comes at me, or comes at this kid, they should have the right to defend themself and that means to whatever that person deems necessary. They after all didn't instigate the confrontation.

Now if I was going on about this hooker that my friend hooked up with in Thailand and gave crabs to than I could see why you'd post that...

Quote from Mavtech : Bullying has been around for ages. It will always be around. We need to teach our kids how to handle it like my father did for me. This sets a nasty precedent for kids being bullied. "Go ahead, stab your bully!"

WOW, so that's what we need to teach our kids? Here I thought we should perhaps teach our kids not to be bullies...

Perhaps that precedent should be set of stabbing your bullies. Maybe then there wouldn't be anymore bullying if ya know what I mean...!

Quote from LivninSC : You can't make the link whatsoever? I would be defending myself. This kid was defending himself. If someone comes at me, or comes at this kid, they should have the right to defend themself and that means to whatever that person deems necessary.

No. That's part of the problem. This self defense is blown out of proportion. Assuming it was simple bullying, there is no way that the kid deserved even 1 knife jab. There are plenty of ways to defend yourself without killing someone. Also, this kid was showing the knife off to other kids beforehand. So, he had a plan.

Quote from LivninSC : WOW, so that's what we need to teach our kids? Here I thought we should perhaps teach our kids not to be bullies... Perhaps that precedent should be set of stabbing your bullies. Maybe then there wouldn't be anymore bullying if ya know what I mean...!

Kids are mean. That's a fact. I am trying to teach my 6 year old how to handle kids picking on her. She's almost a foot taller than the other kids. But, she just wants people to be her friend. She's too young for me to tell her to pop them in the mouth. So, it's hard right now.

But, I guess I should give her a knife if she is still picked on in middle school.

Quote from Mavtech : I just had this discussion on FB with a local radio DJ. I think it's extreme force. It's above and beyond what I would say is a reasonable self defense. If the kid is bigger, pick up a stick or a branch. Something non-lethal but would get the point across. But, a knife? It's saddening that people are ok with this. Bullying has been around for ages. It will always be around. We need to teach our kids how to handle it like my father did for me. This sets a nasty precedent for kids being bullied. "Go ahead, stab your bully!"

It's much easier to conceal a knife than a stick or branch.
When you're afraid, you want to make sure you're prepared to defend yourself at any time since you could be attacked at any unpredictable time.

He was in fight or flight mode.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figh...t_response
He tried to flee but was followed and eventually punched in the back of the head.
When fleeing is no longer an option, you fight.
It's pretty much instinctual at that point.

Quote from hsjpatman : You can't compare this to columbine. This kid was punched in the back of his head and immediately defended himself. He did not go home and plan to ambush and murder the guy later on on. There's a HUGE difference.

Ok so what if Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold instead carried concealed guns to school and the moment they were bullied or assualted they pulled out their guns and started shooting.. Would that be ok ( since it would fall under the same similar scenerio that was laid out with this kid in FL )

Quote from Mavtech : No. That's part of the problem. This self defense is blown out of proportion. Assuming it was simple bullying, there is no way that the kid deserved even 1 knife jab. There are plenty of ways to defend yourself without killing someone. Also, this kid was showing the knife off to other kids beforehand. So, he had a plan.

I assume his plan was to defend himself if he's forced to.

Quote from hsjpatman : It's much easier to conceal a knife than a stick or branch. When you're afraid, you want to make sure you're prepared to defend yourself at any time since you could be attacked at any unpredictable time. He was in fight or flight mode. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figh...t_response He tried to flee but was followed and eventually punched in the back of the head. When fleeing is no longer an option, you fight. It's pretty much instinctual at that point.

Of course it's easier to conceal a knife. I'm not saying he should have concealed a branch or stick. He could have picked something up or enlisted some friends. There is no way that a knife is a reasonable self defense here. With bullies, it's all about showing self confidence and standing up for yourself. When you flee, they pursue and continue. Usually, one pop in the eye or mouth is all it takes. No need for a knife. This kid was not down to his last option.

Quote from hsjpatman : I am somewhat torn by this. I believe in self defense, and I believe this was self defense, but stabbing the guy 12 times seems like too much. Then again, people will do crazy things when backed into a corner. Once you feel threatened enough to actually get the gumption to stab someone in self defense, you're probably in an unpredictable mindset, in a fight or flight mode if you will. One thing is for sure, that kid wont be bullying anyone ever again. Hopefully those that witnessed it got the message as well. Don't bully people or it might backfire in your face.

Not commenting on the reasonableness of the act, as I'm also torn, but just to clarify, stabbing 12 times isn't necessarily "too much", anymore than shooting someone three or four times is "excessive", (as it's often portrayed by those with little knowledge of guns and physiology). Unlike in the movies, people don't just drop at the first stab wounds, as they often don't stop what they're doing after the first gun shot.