O'Keefe Voter Fraud Investigation: Young Man Offered Holder's Ballot (Update: and other names)

Quote from andyfico : Thanks for the response. I can understand your point although I don't necessarily agree with it but that's the beauty of debate.

Part of my blitheness about this issue is that as a poll worker I know there are a lot of checks and balances behind the scenes for the type of fraud that would be preventable through IDs to be exceptionally uncommon. As has been pointed out before in these arguments, the true levels of fraud that all of us should be paranoid about are the ones that happen before the election actually begins, or while the votes are being counted. That's where you can impact large amounts of numbers and really impact elections.

Quote from blackleatherrai : Part of my blitheness about this issue is that as a poll worker I know there are a lot of checks and balances behind the scenes for the type of fraud that would be preventable through IDs to be exceptionally uncommon. As has been pointed out before in these arguments, the true levels of fraud that all of us should be paranoid about are the ones that happen before the election actually begins, or while the votes are being counted. That's where you can impact large amounts of numbers and really impact elections.

Which the pols know, but are just capitalizing on the ignorance of the public to put laws in place which will discourage voting by the poor, minorities and elderly which predominantly vote for Democrats.

Quote from 124nic8 : Which the pols know, but are just capitalizing on the ignorance of the public to put laws in place which will discourage voting by the poor, minorities and elderly which predominantly vote for Democrats.

Can you provide a link for this claim? Or is this more of a gut feeling? TIA!

Quote from andyfico : Can you provide a link for this claim? Or is this more of a gut feeling? TIA!

It is my "gut feeling" that pols are far more knowlegeable about voting procedures than the general public. But that's not saying much.....cause most people only know that they go into a room and ask for a ballot.

But perhaps I should limit my judgement to pols in leadership positions which design legislative strategy.

Quote from 124nic8 : It is my "gut feeling" that pols are far more knowlegeable about voting procedures than the general public. But that's not saying much.....cause most people only know that they go into a room and ask for a ballot.

OK. Thanks.

Quote from andyfico : Can you provide a link for this claim? Or is this more of a gut feeling? TIA!

I imagine you're already familiar with the website: http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

Officials are aware that they have a constituency that is very concerned about both the accuracy (in terms of incompentency) of the reporting of the results, the accuracy (in terms of pre-meditated fraud) of the voting system and its results, and the paper trail (which, in some states, is never accessible by the general public). Officials of BOTH parties are aware of these issues, but one party chooses to ignore it and the other chooses to beat around the bush regarding voter IDs.

Take, for example, the third story down about the Maine voting results for the GOP primary. 100 votes are somehow miscalculated, lost or misrepresented. It is FAR easier to do this and pretend everything's okay from an official standpoint than it is it get 100 illegal voters in line and to memorize the names and addresses of 100 dead persons or persons who are known to not be voting this year. Mind you, I suspect Maine's results to be incompetency.

Quote from TRNT : You think this debate can be won by asking loaded questions? Ok, here: what level of murder is acceptable? If we increased the street patrol by 200%, don't you think number of violent acts will be reduced? And it is "easy" for you to say it is "easy." Not so much for those who would be disfranchised. To some of us, this is not about vote fraud. We do not believe the sincerity of the GOP pushing for this. We believe this is a political move. You can dismiss that and keep talking about fighting this imaginary voter fraud but we will never converge like that.

cost/benefit, pure and simple. Cost? Very little - as stated previously, ID's are already free in many states. What would be the additional cost to ask for an ID and cross-reference with a voter list?

It really sounds like you're going out of your way to justify voter fraud's existence.

That WSJ piece previously quoted illustrates how voter fraud and irregularities can really make a difference in tight elections, which are actually fairly common.

Quote from Elmer : I fail to see why requiring ID is a problem, and afaik, no one has been able to document that it would be.

Because the voter might forget their I.D. at home and have to go back for it. duh!

Quote from OhNoItsDEVO : Is military spending the only thing that concerns you? we need across the board cuts, nothing should be untouchable.

If it is, he needs to bash Obama more on all that military might he's been sending to other countries. Dropping bombs on people and occupying their countries ain't cheap.

If people want to argue the monetary cost aspect of voter I.D., great. It's when people pull out the race card and how Republicans are evil and hate black people so they want to give black people free I.D.s... yeah.

Quote from TRNT : But that is only one side of the coin. I firmly believe that this is not a problem and the only reason Republicans are beating this drum is because they believe it would suppress votes which would mostly go to the Dems. And because of that I am against it.

Don't forget those vote-suppressing Rhode Island Democrats.

Quote from blackleatherrai : As has been pointed out before in these arguments, the true levels of fraud that all of us should be paranoid about are the ones that happen before the election actually begins, or while the votes are being counted. That's where you can impact large amounts of numbers and really impact elections.

Sometimes I'll think primaries are the way to go to keep things simple. But then I consider the potential voter/election fraud that can happen, not even necessarily with people, but with the voting machines.

Caucuses are a pain in the ass, but if there's fraud, it's easier to catch. And caucuses have other benefits too.

Quote from Dr. J : Doesn't it scare you in the least that you can just stroll into a polling place and say "hello I am so-and-so and I live at such-and-such address" and vote under that person's identity? Are you all really that partisan?

No, because im not a paranoid conspiracy theorist

You cant say crime is occurring off of a "hunch".

If you claim a bunch of underpants gnomes are stealing your underpants and we need to spend $100 million on anti underpants gnome traps i dont have to believe you

Quote : Is voter fraud rampant? I'd bet not, but just because it doesn't account for 50% of all votes doesn't mean it should be ignored, especially when very simple steps can be taken to thwart it. Is auto theft rampant in your city/town? Do you know of anyone who has had their car broken into or stolen? If not, why do you lock your doors or hide things like GPS, change, purses, etc?

Actually i dont lock my doors most of the time because people dont STEAL when theres no incentive. I dont leave shit in my car. People dont break into your car for shits and giggles they break in to STEAL something worth money. The same way a bunch of illegal immigrants dont impersonate voters to vote democrat. It doesnt mean shit to them. Thats why this is so absurd. The only way you can justify the belief that "criminals and illegal immigrants" are coming out in droves is if you are suggesting campaigns PAY them to do so. Sorry, thats just stupid.

Quote from andyfico : Can you provide a link for this claim? Or is this more of a gut feeling? TIA!

http://www.brennancenter.org/page..._39242.pdf

page 3

Quote from Dr. J : cost/benefit, pure and simple. Cost? Very little - as stated previously, ID's are already free in many states. What would be the additional cost to ask for an ID and cross-reference with a voter list?

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/pu...FC_AB7.pdf

About $3-$4 million projected for wisconsin over 2 years. derp

Quote : In Indiana, the number of free ID cards issued from 2007-2010 has been much higher than in Georgia and has cost the state more. In those four years the state Bureau of Motor Vehicles has issued 771,017 free photo IDs at a total cost of just over $10 million according to Jeremy D. Burton, Help America Vote Act outreach manager with the Indiana Secretary of State’s office.

http://www.pewcenteronthestates.o....17.11.pdf

Using that math of $10 million to issue 771,000 voter IDs, that cost comes out to be $13 per voter id (which probably takes into account lost revenue as well)

$13 x 21 million americans of voting age without voter IDs = $273 MILLION DOLLARS (spread out over the course of probably a decade). Just what we need!

Quote : It really sounds like you're going out of your way to justify voter fraud's existence. That WSJ piece previously quoted illustrates how voter fraud and irregularities can really make a difference in tight elections, which are actually fairly common.

Actually its you who's going out of their way to spend money on what could be called an equivalent to preventing lightning strikes (except more people are killed by lightning every year than their is voter impersonation... whoops)

Quote from Deusxmachina : If people want to argue the monetary cost aspect of voter I.D., great. It's when people pull out the race card and how Republicans are evil and hate black people so they want to give black people free I.D.s... yeah.

"RAYSISTS" AM I RIGHT??? god shutup already.

No one has pulled the race card.

Heres some logic i think even you can follow (well, maybe not):
-poors and minorities typically dont have government photo ID
-they typically vote democrat
-requiring photo ID means you just put a hurdle in the way of the 15 million poors and minorities without photo ID (try gettin to the DMV when you dont have a car, dont have a day off, and work 9-5 when the DMV is open. NOW TRY THIS WITH CHILDREN)
-requiring photo ID also means you just stopped maybe 30 cases of voter impersonation every election cycle
-issuing photo ID will take over $100,000,000 country wide

So in effect you just put a hurdle in front of (ie disenfranchised) a bunch of people who coincidentally vote democrat most of the time. Strange huh?? But noooo you swear that we NEED to spend $100,000,000 to stop those 30 cases of voter impersonation. IF WE DONT STOP THOSE 30 CASES THE FOUNDING FATHERS ARE GOING TO RISE FROM THEIR GRAVES

The only way you can argue otherwise is if youre nuts like radeck and believe rag tag groups of illegal immigrants are stealing identities then impersonating voters.

Quote from andyfico : So........what level of fraud is acceptable? Please give just a number or a %. TIA! Why does everything have to be won with you? Why can't it just be a healthy and logical debate?

Everything does have to be won with me. I do not know where that is coming from.

And I did give the answer. Apparently you just don't like that answe or probably you don't like the format of that answer. Here it is again: what level of murder is acceptable? Please give just a number or a %. TIA!

Quote from Dr. J : cost/benefit, pure and simple. Cost? Very little - as stated previously, ID's are already free in many states. What would be the additional cost to ask for an ID and cross-reference with a voter list? It really sounds like you're going out of your way to justify voter fraud's existence. That WSJ piece previously quoted illustrates how voter fraud and irregularities can really make a difference in tight elections, which are actually fairly common.

Voter fraud is a reality. It's existence does not need any justification.

And in you cost/benefit analysis the ignore the biggest cost. Making it difficult and likely disenfranchising thousands of eligible voters.

If this did not have a political motive and did not make it more difficult for thousands of legitimate voters to vote, I would be squarely behind it.

I have said many times that I am all for a national ID. Let's do this once and for all. Then we can make sure only people who are entitled to X would get X. Hopefully that would fix the problem of undocumented workers too. (I would institute a massive grandfathering in there, however.)