forum thread
Deal Details
Hey everyone,
You've asked how Slickdeals works: who owns us, how deals are picked, and what makes the Frontpage.
Here are straightforward answers from the team, no spin. If you want more detail, we'll keep updating this page.
Who owns Slickdeals?
Slickdeals has been privately owned since it was founded in 1999 by Van Trac. Since 2012, the company has navigated multiple stages of growth and evolution with the support of investors and owners, including Warburg Pincus and Goldman Sachs. Today, we're still independently operated under private ownership.
Do investors have any say in what merchants you have on your site?
No, none. Our investors have input on overall financial goals such as growth targets, but they don't make any decisions about what merchants or deals appear on Slickdeals. What you see on the site is entirely driven by our internal team and, most importantly, by our community.
Do merchants send you deals to post for them?
We do have a program that lets merchants submit deals for review by our Deal Specialists. It's never pay-to-play. Deal Specialists review every submission and only post offers that meet community standards on price and quality.
Here's how it works: our Deal Specialists review every submission. They'll check if that product (or a similar one) has been posted before and how our members responded. If the data shows members liked it at a certain price but not at another, they'll actually go back to the merchant and ask if they can lower the price. If the merchant can't, we usually pass.
If history shows our members just aren't interested in that product at all, we'll also pass.
Bottom line: we only post something if the team genuinely believes it's a good deal.
If you work with a merchant, does that mean they're guaranteed to go Front Page?
Nope. Front Page is earned, not bought. A deal's popularity (meaning community votes, engagement, and value) determines whether it makes it there, not whether we have a working relationship with the merchant.
What is the difference between a Deal Specialist and a Deal Hunter?
Deal Specialists review deals submitted to us, while Deal Hunters go out and independently find deals across the web.
Why do I see the same merchant often? Can you stop?
We know seeing the same merchant can get old. We feature them when the data shows a strong value for members. If you've had a bad experience, add a comment; your feedback affects what we surface.
We've actually stopped working with certain merchants in the past because of member feedback. Your experiences and opinions directly shape who we feature, so if you're tired of seeing a certain name, let us know why. We do pay attention.
Do you ever bump down a deal because a merchant isn't working with you?
Absolutely not.
Do mods remove posts that criticize merchants you work with?
We actually welcome and encourage honest feedback, even when it's negative. That's part of what makes Slickdeals different: members can speak freely about their experiences.
What we do remove are personal attacks and shills.
Why work with merchants at all?
Just like any other business, we've got bills to pay. We have about 250 employees, servers, infrastructure, and everything else that keeps Slickdeals running.
Some sites throw pop-ups and autoplay ads at you, or put deals behind paywalls. We've always wanted Slickdeals to stay free, open, and user-driven, so working with merchants in specific, limited ways helps make that possible without ruining your browsing experience.
Do staff have secret accounts to influence votes/comments?
Absolutely not. That's a strict no-go.
Our staff are Slickdeals users too and do organically engage with the community. For example, I like and comment on deals with my staff account but it's on items i've actually purchased or know that it's a good value. Whatever we do is labeled Staff, so it's all in the open.
Some staff accounts are used only for testing. For example, a staff account may be used to make sure things display correctly on the site, but those accounts are not used to post, vote, or engage in discussions. Most testing happens in a closed environment anyway, not on the live site.
Ok, what about bots then?
We have Slickdeals Scout. It scans retailers for price drops and posts them. It doesn't vote, comment, or influence rankings.
Why was my political post removed?
We get this one a lot. Our moderators aren't biased toward any political side, they're just enforcing the same rule across the board: Slickdeals isn't a political platform.
We remove political posts because they almost always turn into arguments and derail deal discussions. Speaking from experience (many of us were community members before being staff), it's tough to delete posts you might personally agree with, but it's part of keeping the space on-topic and welcoming.
Why so many Amazon deals?
Yes, you're right, a lot of Amazon deals are posted on our site by both community members and staff. Given the sheer volume of products and promotions Amazon runs, plus how popular they are with our community, it's no surprise those deals make up a big share of our content.
That said, we're always open to more variety. If you're shopping and come across an amazing deal from a merchant or store and you want to share it with our members, please post it!! And if there are merchants or types of products you'd like to see more often, let us know.
You can email us at [email protected] (yes, we know, old school ) or post in the Help Me Find a Deal forum if you're looking for something specific.
Do you allow self-promotion?
We draw a hard line between sharing an organically found deal and marketing on behalf of a company. If something feels like an ad instead of a contribution, it's removed. If we find proof that the merchant is posting for themselves, it's removed. If we find out a merchant is voting for themselves or using various accounts to vote for themselves, that account is typically banned and if this has been an ongoing issue with a particular merchant, if they continue despite warnings to stop, they may be banned from being posted on our site.
Thanks
Thanks for sticking with us through all that. And honestly, for caring enough to ask these questions in the first place. Slickdeals has always been about the people who make the community what it is: you all. The feedback, the deal-hunting, the call-outs when we miss something are what keep this place sharp and worth visiting.
We're not perfect, but we're listening. The more open we can be about how things work behind the scenes, the better this community gets for everyone.
If there's something we didn't cover here (or something you think we should talk about next time), don't be shy. Drop it in the forums or email [email protected]. We'll keep the conversation going.
You've asked how Slickdeals works: who owns us, how deals are picked, and what makes the Frontpage.
Here are straightforward answers from the team, no spin. If you want more detail, we'll keep updating this page.
Who owns Slickdeals?
Slickdeals has been privately owned since it was founded in 1999 by Van Trac. Since 2012, the company has navigated multiple stages of growth and evolution with the support of investors and owners, including Warburg Pincus and Goldman Sachs. Today, we're still independently operated under private ownership.
Do investors have any say in what merchants you have on your site?
No, none. Our investors have input on overall financial goals such as growth targets, but they don't make any decisions about what merchants or deals appear on Slickdeals. What you see on the site is entirely driven by our internal team and, most importantly, by our community.
Do merchants send you deals to post for them?
We do have a program that lets merchants submit deals for review by our Deal Specialists. It's never pay-to-play. Deal Specialists review every submission and only post offers that meet community standards on price and quality.
Here's how it works: our Deal Specialists review every submission. They'll check if that product (or a similar one) has been posted before and how our members responded. If the data shows members liked it at a certain price but not at another, they'll actually go back to the merchant and ask if they can lower the price. If the merchant can't, we usually pass.
If history shows our members just aren't interested in that product at all, we'll also pass.
Bottom line: we only post something if the team genuinely believes it's a good deal.
If you work with a merchant, does that mean they're guaranteed to go Front Page?
Nope. Front Page is earned, not bought. A deal's popularity (meaning community votes, engagement, and value) determines whether it makes it there, not whether we have a working relationship with the merchant.
What is the difference between a Deal Specialist and a Deal Hunter?
Deal Specialists review deals submitted to us, while Deal Hunters go out and independently find deals across the web.
Why do I see the same merchant often? Can you stop?
We know seeing the same merchant can get old. We feature them when the data shows a strong value for members. If you've had a bad experience, add a comment; your feedback affects what we surface.
We've actually stopped working with certain merchants in the past because of member feedback. Your experiences and opinions directly shape who we feature, so if you're tired of seeing a certain name, let us know why. We do pay attention.
Do you ever bump down a deal because a merchant isn't working with you?
Absolutely not.
Do mods remove posts that criticize merchants you work with?
We actually welcome and encourage honest feedback, even when it's negative. That's part of what makes Slickdeals different: members can speak freely about their experiences.
What we do remove are personal attacks and shills.
- ✅ "This merchant never ships on time." — Fair feedback
- ❌ "OP is an idiot" — Harassment, removed
Why work with merchants at all?
Just like any other business, we've got bills to pay. We have about 250 employees, servers, infrastructure, and everything else that keeps Slickdeals running.
Some sites throw pop-ups and autoplay ads at you, or put deals behind paywalls. We've always wanted Slickdeals to stay free, open, and user-driven, so working with merchants in specific, limited ways helps make that possible without ruining your browsing experience.
Do staff have secret accounts to influence votes/comments?
Absolutely not. That's a strict no-go.
Our staff are Slickdeals users too and do organically engage with the community. For example, I like and comment on deals with my staff account but it's on items i've actually purchased or know that it's a good value. Whatever we do is labeled Staff, so it's all in the open.
Some staff accounts are used only for testing. For example, a staff account may be used to make sure things display correctly on the site, but those accounts are not used to post, vote, or engage in discussions. Most testing happens in a closed environment anyway, not on the live site.
Ok, what about bots then?
We have Slickdeals Scout. It scans retailers for price drops and posts them. It doesn't vote, comment, or influence rankings.
Why was my political post removed?
We get this one a lot. Our moderators aren't biased toward any political side, they're just enforcing the same rule across the board: Slickdeals isn't a political platform.
We remove political posts because they almost always turn into arguments and derail deal discussions. Speaking from experience (many of us were community members before being staff), it's tough to delete posts you might personally agree with, but it's part of keeping the space on-topic and welcoming.
Why so many Amazon deals?
Yes, you're right, a lot of Amazon deals are posted on our site by both community members and staff. Given the sheer volume of products and promotions Amazon runs, plus how popular they are with our community, it's no surprise those deals make up a big share of our content.
That said, we're always open to more variety. If you're shopping and come across an amazing deal from a merchant or store and you want to share it with our members, please post it!! And if there are merchants or types of products you'd like to see more often, let us know.
You can email us at [email protected] (yes, we know, old school ) or post in the Help Me Find a Deal forum if you're looking for something specific.
Do you allow self-promotion?
We draw a hard line between sharing an organically found deal and marketing on behalf of a company. If something feels like an ad instead of a contribution, it's removed. If we find proof that the merchant is posting for themselves, it's removed. If we find out a merchant is voting for themselves or using various accounts to vote for themselves, that account is typically banned and if this has been an ongoing issue with a particular merchant, if they continue despite warnings to stop, they may be banned from being posted on our site.
Thanks
Thanks for sticking with us through all that. And honestly, for caring enough to ask these questions in the first place. Slickdeals has always been about the people who make the community what it is: you all. The feedback, the deal-hunting, the call-outs when we miss something are what keep this place sharp and worth visiting.
We're not perfect, but we're listening. The more open we can be about how things work behind the scenes, the better this community gets for everyone.
If there's something we didn't cover here (or something you think we should talk about next time), don't be shy. Drop it in the forums or email [email protected]. We'll keep the conversation going.
Community Notes
About the Poster
Deal Details
Community Notes
About the Poster
Hey everyone,
You've asked how Slickdeals works: who owns us, how deals are picked, and what makes the Frontpage.
Here are straightforward answers from the team, no spin. If you want more detail, we'll keep updating this page.
Who owns Slickdeals?
Slickdeals has been privately owned since it was founded in 1999 by Van Trac. Since 2012, the company has navigated multiple stages of growth and evolution with the support of investors and owners, including Warburg Pincus and Goldman Sachs. Today, we're still independently operated under private ownership.
Do investors have any say in what merchants you have on your site?
No, none. Our investors have input on overall financial goals such as growth targets, but they don't make any decisions about what merchants or deals appear on Slickdeals. What you see on the site is entirely driven by our internal team and, most importantly, by our community.
Do merchants send you deals to post for them?
We do have a program that lets merchants submit deals for review by our Deal Specialists. It's never pay-to-play. Deal Specialists review every submission and only post offers that meet community standards on price and quality.
Here's how it works: our Deal Specialists review every submission. They'll check if that product (or a similar one) has been posted before and how our members responded. If the data shows members liked it at a certain price but not at another, they'll actually go back to the merchant and ask if they can lower the price. If the merchant can't, we usually pass.
If history shows our members just aren't interested in that product at all, we'll also pass.
Bottom line: we only post something if the team genuinely believes it's a good deal.
If you work with a merchant, does that mean they're guaranteed to go Front Page?
Nope. Front Page is earned, not bought. A deal's popularity (meaning community votes, engagement, and value) determines whether it makes it there, not whether we have a working relationship with the merchant.
What is the difference between a Deal Specialist and a Deal Hunter?
Deal Specialists review deals submitted to us, while Deal Hunters go out and independently find deals across the web.
Why do I see the same merchant often? Can you stop?
We know seeing the same merchant can get old. We feature them when the data shows a strong value for members. If you've had a bad experience, add a comment; your feedback affects what we surface.
We've actually stopped working with certain merchants in the past because of member feedback. Your experiences and opinions directly shape who we feature, so if you're tired of seeing a certain name, let us know why. We do pay attention.
Do you ever bump down a deal because a merchant isn't working with you?
Absolutely not.
Do mods remove posts that criticize merchants you work with?
We actually welcome and encourage honest feedback, even when it's negative. That's part of what makes Slickdeals different: members can speak freely about their experiences.
What we do remove are personal attacks and shills.
Why work with merchants at all?
Just like any other business, we've got bills to pay. We have about 250 employees, servers, infrastructure, and everything else that keeps Slickdeals running.
Some sites throw pop-ups and autoplay ads at you, or put deals behind paywalls. We've always wanted Slickdeals to stay free, open, and user-driven, so working with merchants in specific, limited ways helps make that possible without ruining your browsing experience.
Do staff have secret accounts to influence votes/comments?
Absolutely not. That's a strict no-go.
Our staff are Slickdeals users too and do organically engage with the community. For example, I like and comment on deals with my staff account but it's on items i've actually purchased or know that it's a good value. Whatever we do is labeled Staff, so it's all in the open.
Some staff accounts are used only for testing. For example, a staff account may be used to make sure things display correctly on the site, but those accounts are not used to post, vote, or engage in discussions. Most testing happens in a closed environment anyway, not on the live site.
Ok, what about bots then?
We have Slickdeals Scout. It scans retailers for price drops and posts them. It doesn't vote, comment, or influence rankings.
Why was my political post removed?
We get this one a lot. Our moderators aren't biased toward any political side, they're just enforcing the same rule across the board: Slickdeals isn't a political platform.
We remove political posts because they almost always turn into arguments and derail deal discussions. Speaking from experience (many of us were community members before being staff), it's tough to delete posts you might personally agree with, but it's part of keeping the space on-topic and welcoming.
Why so many Amazon deals?
Yes, you're right, a lot of Amazon deals are posted on our site by both community members and staff. Given the sheer volume of products and promotions Amazon runs, plus how popular they are with our community, it's no surprise those deals make up a big share of our content.
That said, we're always open to more variety. If you're shopping and come across an amazing deal from a merchant or store and you want to share it with our members, please post it!! And if there are merchants or types of products you'd like to see more often, let us know.
You can email us at [email protected] (yes, we know, old school ) or post in the Help Me Find a Deal forum if you're looking for something specific.
Do you allow self-promotion?
We draw a hard line between sharing an organically found deal and marketing on behalf of a company. If something feels like an ad instead of a contribution, it's removed. If we find proof that the merchant is posting for themselves, it's removed. If we find out a merchant is voting for themselves or using various accounts to vote for themselves, that account is typically banned and if this has been an ongoing issue with a particular merchant, if they continue despite warnings to stop, they may be banned from being posted on our site.
Thanks
Thanks for sticking with us through all that. And honestly, for caring enough to ask these questions in the first place. Slickdeals has always been about the people who make the community what it is: you all. The feedback, the deal-hunting, the call-outs when we miss something are what keep this place sharp and worth visiting.
We're not perfect, but we're listening. The more open we can be about how things work behind the scenes, the better this community gets for everyone.
If there's something we didn't cover here (or something you think we should talk about next time), don't be shy. Drop it in the forums or email [email protected]. We'll keep the conversation going.
You've asked how Slickdeals works: who owns us, how deals are picked, and what makes the Frontpage.
Here are straightforward answers from the team, no spin. If you want more detail, we'll keep updating this page.
Who owns Slickdeals?
Slickdeals has been privately owned since it was founded in 1999 by Van Trac. Since 2012, the company has navigated multiple stages of growth and evolution with the support of investors and owners, including Warburg Pincus and Goldman Sachs. Today, we're still independently operated under private ownership.
Do investors have any say in what merchants you have on your site?
No, none. Our investors have input on overall financial goals such as growth targets, but they don't make any decisions about what merchants or deals appear on Slickdeals. What you see on the site is entirely driven by our internal team and, most importantly, by our community.
Do merchants send you deals to post for them?
We do have a program that lets merchants submit deals for review by our Deal Specialists. It's never pay-to-play. Deal Specialists review every submission and only post offers that meet community standards on price and quality.
Here's how it works: our Deal Specialists review every submission. They'll check if that product (or a similar one) has been posted before and how our members responded. If the data shows members liked it at a certain price but not at another, they'll actually go back to the merchant and ask if they can lower the price. If the merchant can't, we usually pass.
If history shows our members just aren't interested in that product at all, we'll also pass.
Bottom line: we only post something if the team genuinely believes it's a good deal.
If you work with a merchant, does that mean they're guaranteed to go Front Page?
Nope. Front Page is earned, not bought. A deal's popularity (meaning community votes, engagement, and value) determines whether it makes it there, not whether we have a working relationship with the merchant.
What is the difference between a Deal Specialist and a Deal Hunter?
Deal Specialists review deals submitted to us, while Deal Hunters go out and independently find deals across the web.
Why do I see the same merchant often? Can you stop?
We know seeing the same merchant can get old. We feature them when the data shows a strong value for members. If you've had a bad experience, add a comment; your feedback affects what we surface.
We've actually stopped working with certain merchants in the past because of member feedback. Your experiences and opinions directly shape who we feature, so if you're tired of seeing a certain name, let us know why. We do pay attention.
Do you ever bump down a deal because a merchant isn't working with you?
Absolutely not.
Do mods remove posts that criticize merchants you work with?
We actually welcome and encourage honest feedback, even when it's negative. That's part of what makes Slickdeals different: members can speak freely about their experiences.
What we do remove are personal attacks and shills.
- ✅ "This merchant never ships on time." — Fair feedback
- ❌ "OP is an idiot" — Harassment, removed
Why work with merchants at all?
Just like any other business, we've got bills to pay. We have about 250 employees, servers, infrastructure, and everything else that keeps Slickdeals running.
Some sites throw pop-ups and autoplay ads at you, or put deals behind paywalls. We've always wanted Slickdeals to stay free, open, and user-driven, so working with merchants in specific, limited ways helps make that possible without ruining your browsing experience.
Do staff have secret accounts to influence votes/comments?
Absolutely not. That's a strict no-go.
Our staff are Slickdeals users too and do organically engage with the community. For example, I like and comment on deals with my staff account but it's on items i've actually purchased or know that it's a good value. Whatever we do is labeled Staff, so it's all in the open.
Some staff accounts are used only for testing. For example, a staff account may be used to make sure things display correctly on the site, but those accounts are not used to post, vote, or engage in discussions. Most testing happens in a closed environment anyway, not on the live site.
Ok, what about bots then?
We have Slickdeals Scout. It scans retailers for price drops and posts them. It doesn't vote, comment, or influence rankings.
Why was my political post removed?
We get this one a lot. Our moderators aren't biased toward any political side, they're just enforcing the same rule across the board: Slickdeals isn't a political platform.
We remove political posts because they almost always turn into arguments and derail deal discussions. Speaking from experience (many of us were community members before being staff), it's tough to delete posts you might personally agree with, but it's part of keeping the space on-topic and welcoming.
Why so many Amazon deals?
Yes, you're right, a lot of Amazon deals are posted on our site by both community members and staff. Given the sheer volume of products and promotions Amazon runs, plus how popular they are with our community, it's no surprise those deals make up a big share of our content.
That said, we're always open to more variety. If you're shopping and come across an amazing deal from a merchant or store and you want to share it with our members, please post it!! And if there are merchants or types of products you'd like to see more often, let us know.
You can email us at [email protected] (yes, we know, old school ) or post in the Help Me Find a Deal forum if you're looking for something specific.
Do you allow self-promotion?
We draw a hard line between sharing an organically found deal and marketing on behalf of a company. If something feels like an ad instead of a contribution, it's removed. If we find proof that the merchant is posting for themselves, it's removed. If we find out a merchant is voting for themselves or using various accounts to vote for themselves, that account is typically banned and if this has been an ongoing issue with a particular merchant, if they continue despite warnings to stop, they may be banned from being posted on our site.
Thanks
Thanks for sticking with us through all that. And honestly, for caring enough to ask these questions in the first place. Slickdeals has always been about the people who make the community what it is: you all. The feedback, the deal-hunting, the call-outs when we miss something are what keep this place sharp and worth visiting.
We're not perfect, but we're listening. The more open we can be about how things work behind the scenes, the better this community gets for everyone.
If there's something we didn't cover here (or something you think we should talk about next time), don't be shy. Drop it in the forums or email [email protected]. We'll keep the conversation going.
Community Voting
Deal
Score
+112
Good Deal
Bad Deal
Community Reviews
Slickdeals is presented as a community driven deal site that still surfaces useful bargains, but the strongest theme is frustration with how Front Page, voting, and moderation work. Front Page placement is described as vote led, then reviewed for rarity, price history, and interest, yet several deals are seen as inflated, late, or ordinary. The thumbs system is defended as a way to avoid endless arguments, but anonymous downvotes, vague spam flags, and possible abuse keep drawing criticism. Classic view, filters, and better transparency are recurring asks, along with cleaner handling of staff posts, promoted tags, and ad blocker issues.
Common Questions (5)
AI-generated summary based on comments from the community. Updated ago
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214 Comments
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Our mods are actually very well trained. They go through weeks and weeks of 8 hour a day training until everyone feels they are ready to move to their regular shift. They are not just "randos". They actually help out the site far more than most people realize.
I'm actually kinda surprised you said that minimum wage part. In polite society those are usually what we'd call inside thoughts but hey, you've gotta do you, right?
Our mods are actually very well trained. They go through weeks and weeks of 8 hour a day training until everyone feels they are ready to move to their regular shift. They are not just "randos". They actually help out the site far more than most people realize.
I'm actually kinda surprised you said that minimum wage part. In polite society those are usually what we'd call inside thoughts but hey, you've gotta do you, right?
As a frequent poster in HD, I must say, the downvoting system leaves a lot to be desired.
The same member can go and downvote the same poster 5 or 10 times in a row. However, giving rep points is limited to one every so often "must spread it around" message. Limit the # of poor merchant reputation votes by same member, this is where spamming is most frequent. I've had issues where I post 5 Walgreens posts in one AM and all 5 are voted 'poor merchant' likely by the same person. When I mod alert for abuse, I'm told it's legit voting. OK.....
Category "OTHER" downvote should require a reason. If there is a legit issue with the deal that the OP or SD can address, at least give a reason. OTHER can be anything, including just I don't like the person posting the deal. Otherwise, do away with the category totally because it is simply too vague.
Chronic downvoting across the site by same members should be addressed, ie, limited to 5 or 10 dv's a day. Otherwise it's trolling to not like that many deals, and people will be more selective/focused on what's truly a crappy deal.
The downvoting set up has been the same for ages, it's outdated and in many cases counterproductive to deals and poster morale.
Thank you for considering this feedback.
We have talked about limiting thumbs down per day (which we aren't sure about that because for honest SDers, we want them to be able to vote how they'd like) or what might work better is a cool down time between thumbs down. We're riding the line of wanting legit well meaning members (which I believe are most) to be able to vote how they want but then there are the bad actors that ruin it for everyone.
When you (or anyone) mod alert asking mods to look into voting abuse, let me say here, they really do take that seriously. It's not just a quick glance at the votes. It's going through recent threads, finding people who TD your threads, looking to see all of their other voting patterns. Is it just against you? Are they TDing other members? Is it usually always for a specific store or does it seem targeted towards the OP. If we could read people's minds, that would go a long way into helping too
So all this to say, yes, we do agree there is absolutely an opportunity for members to abuse TD and we do see some members do this as well. It's been a topic of discussion on our side too to figure out a way to stradle the line between letting members vote how they want and reigning in the abusers.
Yes and yes
We have talked about limiting thumbs down per day (which we aren't sure about that because for honest SDers, we want them to be able to vote how they'd like) or what might work better is a cool down time between thumbs down. We're riding the line of wanting legit well meaning members (which I believe are most) to be able to vote how they want but then there are the bad actors that ruin it for everyone.
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https://slickdeals.net/forums/sdlists/index.php?do=ig
https://slickdeals.net/forums/sdlists/index.php?do=ig
I don't use the "ignore thread" option, but I've run into the same issue with "subscribed threads" disappearing once I get subscribed to a huge amount of them. I'm not sure how it works in other views, but if you view your list of subscribed threads in "Classic" view, there's a little check-box at the top right that allows you to select all the threads on that page (25 total per page). And once those boxes are checked, you can then go to the bottom right and hit "unsubscribe" to remove all 25 threads that you just selected from the list. If you don't have a similar option in other views, you might try switching to Classic for the cleanup and then back to your usual view. YMMV, but it's something that you might want to try. I'll attach a pic to try to give an idea what I'm talking about. (I usually just delete the oldest threads first since those are mostly inactive and don't really need to be on the list any more.)
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