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Hello, My Name is Mike. I Give A Thesis As to Why Steven Hawking Could Be Wrong.

Now don't get me wrong, I used to think Steven Hawking was the smartest person ever. As someone else that is smart (me), I watch Discovery and TLC a lot - minus Kate Plus Eight hehe.. Anyways, let's get down to what is bothering me.

I was thinking the other day of the entire basis of why the Big Bang Theory is the top suggested theory going right now in the science realm. Let's ignore religion and let's use what we know. For those unaware, the Big Bang is basically the theory that everything originated from a single point so small and so tiny that you couldn't even see it with your own eyes. Let's put this into your mind.

Now the Big Bang is used mostly because of the Doppler Effect. No I ain't talking weather. I'm talking color shift. Basically things that move very fast away from you create a redshift (red color behind them). Those that are coming toward you fast create a blueshift (blue in front of them). So what scientist have done is examine the universe and see all this redshift everywhere. They basically have concluded that everything is moving away from us.

My problem is the following:

1) The Doppler Effect doesn't take into account the source point of view. Who is to say the Earth isn't the one moving away fast? If you want to include our solar system, let's say the Sun and the 8 planets are the ones moving away from everything else.

2) If everything is moving so far away from each other at such fast speeds, why is Steven Hawking even suggesting that we attempt to travel to other solar systems thousands of light years away from us (speeds we can't even come close to). By the time we reach where they were when we left earth, they will no longer be there, right? They are moving so fast to create a redshift that we would never make the destination. The travel time would be infinite.

3) Let's say that it is just our solar system moving away from everything else. That would destroy the Big Bang theory completely and then do away with the idea that we all originated from one single point in space. It also destroys Steven Hawking's theory that before the Big Bang, there was no space.

If this is too complicated for you to understand, let me know and I can explain more.

DISCUSS nod
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Joined Feb 2009
Jack's Lack of Surprise
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SkeezaPleez
08-12-2011 at 12:55 PM.
08-12-2011 at 12:55 PM.
Quote from IVIal :
Interesting.

I wonder if that means we'll be studying Christian Mythology in a couple thousand more years the way we study Greek Mythology today. Scratchchin
I'm reading Chariots of the Gods at the moment and I find a lot of the stuff included in there more believable than I do the stories from the Bible.

So it's not a far fetched statement in my opinion.
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Joined Jan 2004
Here's to the future
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Iaaaiws
08-12-2011 at 01:06 PM.
08-12-2011 at 01:06 PM.
Quote from The Llama :
However this doesn't take into account the fact that many religions have been nothing more than a system of control over the people that follow them.

If you saw someone in a cult and knew that it was all based on falsehoods and lies, you just might try to convince them to get out of that cult - NOT because you want them to believe what you believe, but because you see the cult for what it is and you want to help them.
In general I don't lump cults with religions so that doesn't really apply to what I was saying. I'm talking in general about atheists who have to degrade believers to make themselves feel better about their own beliefs. Not all atheists do this. There are even a few here in the Lounge who can discuss their own non-beliefs without being insulting to those who do believe. Trying to convince on person that they are getting sucked in by a cult is far different than ridiculing an entire group who has different views than you do. And yes, it is just as bad when believers do the same thing to non-believers.

Quote from The Llama :
I generally respect your opinions and what you say, but to say that atheism is nothing more than a man made construct seems silly to me. Rejecting what it seems man has made up over thousands of years isn't buying into something, it's buying out. And until you've reflected long and hard on why religion has existed, how it formed and reformed, and how it's had to constantly change in order to keep up with science, then you can't really get inside the head of an atheist and say that they are just following some new trend.
Again, rejecting religion is one thing and I have no problem with those who do so when it is based on personal beliefs and reflection. That is a personal thing and simply not believing is enough to make it reasonable. But when you turn that into a gang mentality and begin to proselytize those beliefs on others and attempt to take those down who believe differently than you do it has become nothing more than a man made religion. If atheism isn't a man made construct then where did it come from? God?

Quote :
The example that I like best is the idea that once upon a time there would have been a group of people just like us where a good percentage of the people would be arguing that all of the Greek gods are absolutely real and no amount of science or reason could prove otherwise. Today, there's not a person in the civilized world that would not mock that stance, and yet people believed in those gods with all of their hearts at one point, just like people today believe in Jesus. How can anyone justify that it's any different?
That is why it is a personal choice as to what to believe or not believe in. I personally don't put much stock in religions as created by man anyway. I find them fascinating and if people gain something from them and it somehow makes their life better than I certainly don't see any reason to mock them or try to take that away from them.
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Joined Jan 2004
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Iaaaiws
08-12-2011 at 01:12 PM.
08-12-2011 at 01:12 PM.
Quote from SkeezaPleez :
So atheists and religious folk are one and the same? That's quite a broad statement.
An atheist who feels the need to constantly bring down believers and thinks their opinions on religion are above anyone else's isn't really all that different than the annoying Jehova's Witness folks who try to convert everyone in their path to their own beliefs.

As I said in my post above, not all atheists are like that. Just like all religious people are not trying to force their beliefs on others. some are reasonable and are able to respect other people's beliefs.
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Joined Feb 2009
Jack's Lack of Surprise
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SkeezaPleez
08-12-2011 at 01:22 PM.
08-12-2011 at 01:22 PM.
Quote from Iaaaiws :
In general I don't lump cults with religions so that doesn't really apply to what I was saying. I'm talking in general about atheists who have to degrade believers to make themselves feel better about their own beliefs. Not all atheists do this. There are even a few here in the Lounge who can discuss their own non-beliefs without being insulting to those who do believe. Trying to convince on person that they are getting sucked in by a cult is far different than ridiculing an entire group who has different views than you do. And yes, it is just as bad when believers do the same thing to non-believers.



Again, rejecting religion is one thing and I have no problem with those who do so when it is based on personal beliefs and reflection. That is a personal thing and simply not believing is enough to make it reasonable. But when you turn that into a gang mentality and begin to proselytize those beliefs on others and attempt to take those down who believe differently than you do it has become nothing more than a man made religion. If atheism isn't a man made construct then where did it come from? God?



That is why it is a personal choice as to what to believe or not believe in. I personally don't put much stock in religions as created by man anyway. I find them fascinating and if people gain something from them and it somehow makes their life better than I certainly don't see any reason to mock them or try to take that away from them.
But wasn't your posting of that ".jpg" basically mocking Atheists?

Unless I misinterpreted it.
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Joined Jan 2004
Here's to the future
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Iaaaiws
08-12-2011 at 01:32 PM.
08-12-2011 at 01:32 PM.
Quote from SkeezaPleez :
But wasn't your posting of that ".jpg" basically mocking Atheists?

Unless I misinterpreted it.
Sure, just like posting this is mocking Christians:



I am an equal opportunity mocker Big Grin

I don't post those to start a discussion or to attempt to convert anybody to anything. They are usually relevant in an existing discussion when one side or the other starts taking themselves too seriously. Anyone who can't laugh at both pictures is likely taking themselves too seriously.
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Joined Feb 2009
Jack's Lack of Surprise
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SkeezaPleez
08-12-2011 at 01:53 PM.
08-12-2011 at 01:53 PM.
Quote from Iaaaiws :
Sure, just like posting this is mocking Christians:



I am an equal opportunity mocker Big Grin

I don't post those to start a discussion or to attempt to convert anybody to anything. They are usually relevant in an existing discussion when one side or the other starts taking themselves too seriously. Anyone who can't laugh at both pictures is likely taking themselves too seriously.
Fair enough.
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Joined Jul 2007
doing science,still alive
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trygve
08-12-2011 at 01:57 PM.
08-12-2011 at 01:57 PM.
Quote from Iaaaiws :
I am an equal opportunity mocker Big Grin
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Joined Jan 2010
Hello, My Name is Mike!
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MikeBear
08-12-2011 at 03:04 PM.
08-12-2011 at 03:04 PM.
Guys, I love to mock, tease, and point out peoples faults as well as anybody, and I try not to push my faith and belief in God on anybody. I'm no perfect Christian, and never will be. Everybody has to decide whether to believe or not believe all by themselves. Some people just need to believe in something greater than themselves, funny as that may be to certain others. However, could we please just refrain from mocking ANY religion directly, whether by re-posting a pic, or by statement?

At least outside the Podium anyway.

Ok, back to razzing mikecart1, or poking him with a stick, or just continuing to feed his need to tell everybody his name and I/Q, and how much he can bench-press.

nod
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Joined Apr 2004
Mr llama llama
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The Llama
08-12-2011 at 07:27 PM.
08-12-2011 at 07:27 PM.
Quote from MikeBear :
Guys, I love to mock, tease, and point out peoples faults as well as anybody, and I try not to push my faith and belief in God on anybody. I'm no perfect Christian, and never will be. Everybody has to decide whether to believe or not believe all by themselves. Some people just need to believe in something greater than themselves, funny as that may be to certain others. However, could we please just refrain from mocking ANY religion directly, whether by re-posting a pic, or by statement?

At least outside the Podium anyway.

Ok, back to razzing mikecart1, or poking him with a stick, or just continuing to feed his need to tell everybody his name and I/Q, and how much he can bench-press.

nod
But mikecart IS my religion. Once I found out he learned all he needed to know from TLC, I started worshiping. Now what?

There's only 1 'p' in worshiping????? I hate spelling.
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Joined Dec 2007
Brown Recluse Aficionado
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chevvy
08-15-2011 at 05:34 AM.
08-15-2011 at 05:34 AM.
Quote from The Llama :
Rejecting what it seems man has made up over thousands of years isn't buying into something, it's buying out. And until you've reflected long and hard on why religion has existed, how it formed and reformed, and how it's had to constantly change in order to keep up with science, then you can't really get inside the head of an atheist and say that they are just following some new trend.
I think I've established that I'm not here to argue and that I respect the opinions of others, but by the definition of religion that you present here I would think that science would have to be included as a religion. Man has made science. Had he not, the earth would still be the center of the universe. It would still be flat. The sun would still revolve around it. So science has changed as much if not more than most religions.

However, I think science is an assistant to religion.....at least mine. The church has taken a lot of controversial and wrong stands in the past (see Galileo, the crusades, etc.) which have been refuted by science. But why is it that if something is unknown or proven incorrect about a religion (Christianity in my case) while not disproving the tenants of the faith, the majority of people dismiss the religion altogether, but if something is unknown or proven incorrect about a current scientific belief, it is considered progress? Aren't we all just searching for the same thing -- TRUTH?
Quote from IVIal :
Interesting.

I wonder if that means we'll be studying Christian Mythology in a couple thousand more years the way we study Greek Mythology today. Scratchchin
You won't. You'll be dead. Crazy
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Last edited by chevvy August 15, 2011 at 05:54 AM.
Joined Jan 2007
The Mistress of All Evil!
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Maleficent
08-15-2011 at 09:56 AM.
08-15-2011 at 09:56 AM.
Quote from chewspam :
You won't. You'll be dead. Crazy
You don't know that! What about Samsara? Granted your religion doesn't subscribe to this particular belief, but some do.


You never know... Harhar
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Joined Dec 2007
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chevvy
08-15-2011 at 10:01 AM.
08-15-2011 at 10:01 AM.
Quote from IVIal :
You don't know that! What about Samsara? Granted your religion doesn't subscribe to this particular belief, but some do.


You never know... Harhar

Sure I do. It's called a life cycle.
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Joined Jan 2007
The Mistress of All Evil!
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Maleficent
08-15-2011 at 10:05 AM.
08-15-2011 at 10:05 AM.
Quote from chewspam :
Sure I do. It's called a life cycle.
So you're saying everyone's life stops completely when they die? There's no sort of continuation of anything, like a "soul?"


Doesn't your religion believe otherwise? Scratchchin
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Joined Dec 2007
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chevvy
08-15-2011 at 10:07 AM.
08-15-2011 at 10:07 AM.
Quote from IVIal :
So you're saying everyone's life stops completely when they die? There's no sort of continuation of anything, like a "soul?"


Doesn't your religion believe otherwise? Scratchchin
WTF? I never said that. Nono2

I was saying the Samsara parallels that of the belief in the soul in many other religions.
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Joined Jan 2007
The Mistress of All Evil!
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Maleficent
08-15-2011 at 10:10 AM.
08-15-2011 at 10:10 AM.
Quote from chewspam :
WTF? I never said that. Nono2

I was saying the Samsara parallels that of the belief in the soul in many other religions.
WTF? Blink

I didn't get any of that out of your post...

You said "you won't be here, you'll be dead" to which I replied "you don't know that" and gave my reasoning, and then you replied "sure do, it's called a life cycle."

Can you see how I inferred that you meant my life stops when I die? laugh out loud
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