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Fair point. If you intend to use this battery lightly then lithium ion is probably fine. Spec says 900 cycles. Many people use these on a daily basis, and would be better off with LiFePo4 which can last 2000+ cycles.
My point was that LiFePo4 batteries last for many more cycles, and this is something to consider before making a purchase.
Li-ion has about 50% higher energy density than LiFePO4. i.e. LiFePO4 weighs about 1.5x more for the same capacity. Significantly more than "a bit."
In practice the difference is smaller because the non-battery parts (case, electronics, etc) add about the same weight to both types. So on the smaller capacity batteries the % weight difference will be smaller. But as you increase the capacity, the % weight difference becomes larger.
The argument that LiFePO4 makes up for it with better longevity assumes high usage. e.g. Regularly topping it out to 100%, and draining it close to 0%. In that case, getting similar longevity with Li-ion requires keeping it between 80%-20% or 70%-30% depth of discharge (DoD). Under those DoD, the weight difference is canceled out for the same usable capacity, and LiFePO4 is better.
But it's not like Li-ion is completely unusable between 100%-0% DoD. Typical endurance if you regularly do a 100%-0% DoD is about 300-500 cycles. But the definition of that is that after 300-500 cycles at 100% DoD, usable capacity drops to 80% of when new. So it's not like Li-ion becomes useless after 300-500 cycles. Its capacity just drops from 1.5x higher energy density than LiFePO4, to 1.2x-1.25x (LiFePO4's capacity drops a bit too). So realistically, you're probably looking at about 1000 cycles from Li-ion before its energy density becomes worse than LiFePO4 (which is typically rated for 3000-5000 cycles to reach the same 80% of new capacity).
If you're going for a large-capacity static installation (so weight doesn't matter) where charging is out of your control (so it will regularly be charged to 100%), and is heavily discharged afterwards, then LiFePO4 is unquestionably better. This usage pretty much exactly describes solar installations. Which is why everyone creating solar power banks is in love with LiFePO4. However,
Even if you do one 100% DoD every day, Li-ion will remain superior to LiFePO4 for ~3 years.
If you don't use it daily, then a lighter Li-ion can easily give you 5-10 years of use while retaining more capacity for less weight than LiFePO4.
Furthermore, if you don't need 100% DoD (e.g. you need less than its full capacity so most of the time it will only experience 80%-20% or 70%-30% DoD), then it'll take decades to become worse than LiFePO4. Your main concern then will probably be heat and storage conditions, not cycles and DoD.
In 10+ years, there will probably be much better battery options available. So you'll be itching for an upgrade.
One is not superior to the other. They each have their pros and cons. Buy the one which best suits your use case.
I needed one for weekend camping outings and the occasional longer road trip. So I went with Li-ion.
I was also considering getting a small battery for my dashcam to save wear on my car battery when parked. That would've seen multiple charges to 100% each day (every time I drove the car), with a discharge to 0% each night while parked. So if I were getting that, I would've gone with a small LiFePO4.
I would 100% get 2 units, 1 additional battery. Having a full set of extra ports, being able to recharge both units separately, etc. Many benefits to having 2!
River 2 Max is on sale around $400 but it is 512Wh vs River 1 Pro 720Wh. Really depends on if you care about extra capacity vs extra features and battery chemistry.
River 2 also has less ports, doesn't have xboost, etc. Its sadly somewhat of a downgrade, outside of lifepo4.
Worth noting some utility companies offer incentives for these electric power banks. They do have some fine print including you have to have purchased it in the last 90 days, but SOCAL Edison was offering $150 back for this
You have to be in a fire prone area now. I cashed in 4 rebates prior 😀
i got the BLUETTI Power Station PS70 720Wh for $199 deal. Is ths worth returning that and paying double ? Essentially its some back up for my Florida home to power a few things when theres some of those all day power outages.
No, Best Buy's is "River", Costco's listings start at "River Pro". Ecoflow's site can help you discern differences but they are not the same SKU/product.
I wouldn't recommend this if you're going to use this at extreme climate. I had it stop working when it reach 0 to negative 5 degrees. I tried to plug a heated blanket in winter.
Another time when it was 135f+. I had it inside a car to power a 12v fridge.
Old tech lithium ion battery. If you using for once a month for outdoor activities are fine. But if you using for solar panels charging everyday , you better stick to new version of Lifepo4,
I thought that NMC, what I am guessing these cells are, is newer tech than lifepo4? I also don't completely agree, our phones have some of the harshest charging patterns and can last for years (they are likely all NMC as well). I do wish these battery banks could be limited in charge state by the user. Usually they are by the manufacturer but you can't do it yourself, max the charge to 80% and set a higher cut off.
Anyone who is expert in this help me understand and decide which one is better to get? Tue delta mini for $600 or the river pro plus the extra battery for $639? The capacity on the latter is more than double the mini for sure but what gives? What is on the mini that would be make it better than the other 2-pack?
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For gas, the little inverter generators are relatively quiet (though obviously not as quiet as the electric battery storage banks), safe for sensitive electronics, and can run for 6 hours on 50% load. You'll want to run non-ethanol based gas, if possible. Again, it's kind of a pain in the ass, but might be a better option depending on your needs.
Should I get this or the Bluetti EB70s for $529?
This unit charges in one hour which is much faster than the Bluetti, but Bluetti is lifepo and has higher Watt per outlet. How does the build quality and reliability compare?
Can these act like a UPS? Where it is plugged in all of the time and will switch the load to battery should the power go out?
I have a need for extended run time and the UPSs out there will not accommodate my needs without going to commercial level where I can add additional battery packs.
Can these act like a UPS? Where it is plugged in all of the time and will switch the load to battery should the power go out?
I have a need for extended run time and the UPSs out there will not accommodate my needs without going to commercial level where I can add additional battery packs.
yes switches within 30 milliseconds to battery according to the technical specs.
River 2 also has less ports, doesn't have xboost, etc. Its sadly somewhat of a downgrade, outside of lifepo4.
River 2 Max absolutely has the xboost feature.. and it's a surprisingly solid-performing unit. Ran my full size french door fridge without issue. Less capacity, sure... but a solid little unit regardless.
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Can these act like a UPS? Where it is plugged in all of the time and will switch the load to battery should the power go out?
I have a need for extended run time and the UPSs out there will not accommodate my needs without going to commercial level where I can add additional battery packs.
They call it "EPS" for emergency supply since it doesn't meet the very rapid switchover UPSs offer... but most devices won't experience interruptions from the 30ms switching they claim. If you do have a problem, you can always keep a UPS in between the unit and your sensitive device
Last edited by Caleo December 14, 2022 at 08:41 AM.
i got the BLUETTI Power Station PS70 720Wh for $199 deal. Is ths worth returning that and paying double ? Essentially its some back up for my Florida home to power a few things when theres some of those all day power outages.
I picked up the Bluetti PS70 too. Nice unit, not a dud out of the box. In looking at specs, I'm not seeing these to be much different (other than Bluetti CS seems iffy). These do act like a UPS (AC pass through) where the Bluetti doesn't. I can see where CPAP users might prefer a UPS type unit. My use case is the same as yours, so I'm not seeing a reason to pay twice as much for the EcoFlow. Maybe someone else can enlighten us more.
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River 2 Max absolutely has the xboost feature.. and it's a surprisingly solid-performing unit. Ran my full size french door fridge without issue. Less capacity, sure... but a solid little unit regardless.
They call it "EPS" for emergency supply since it doesn't meet the very rapid switchover UPSs offer... but most devices won't experience interruptions from the 30ms switching they claim. If you do have a problem, you can always keep a UPS in between the unit and your sensitive device
I should've clarified: the river 2 max has xboost but it's a measly 1000w, whereas the original is 1800w. I can run basically any device with the original river, absolutely not the case with the river 2 max.
I was really stoked for the river 2 max, just disappointed they dialed it back in almost every regard.
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My point was that LiFePo4 batteries last for many more cycles, and this is something to consider before making a purchase.
In practice the difference is smaller because the non-battery parts (case, electronics, etc) add about the same weight to both types. So on the smaller capacity batteries the % weight difference will be smaller. But as you increase the capacity, the % weight difference becomes larger.
The argument that LiFePO4 makes up for it with better longevity assumes high usage. e.g. Regularly topping it out to 100%, and draining it close to 0%. In that case, getting similar longevity with Li-ion requires keeping it between 80%-20% or 70%-30% depth of discharge (DoD). Under those DoD, the weight difference is canceled out for the same usable capacity, and LiFePO4 is better.
But it's not like Li-ion is completely unusable between 100%-0% DoD. Typical endurance if you regularly do a 100%-0% DoD is about 300-500 cycles. But the definition of that is that after 300-500 cycles at 100% DoD, usable capacity drops to 80% of when new. So it's not like Li-ion becomes useless after 300-500 cycles. Its capacity just drops from 1.5x higher energy density than LiFePO4, to 1.2x-1.25x (LiFePO4's capacity drops a bit too). So realistically, you're probably looking at about 1000 cycles from Li-ion before its energy density becomes worse than LiFePO4 (which is typically rated for 3000-5000 cycles to reach the same 80% of new capacity).
If you're going for a large-capacity static installation (so weight doesn't matter) where charging is out of your control (so it will regularly be charged to 100%), and is heavily discharged afterwards, then LiFePO4 is unquestionably better. This usage pretty much exactly describes solar installations. Which is why everyone creating solar power banks is in love with LiFePO4. However,
Even if you do one 100% DoD every day, Li-ion will remain superior to LiFePO4 for ~3 years.
If you don't use it daily, then a lighter Li-ion can easily give you 5-10 years of use while retaining more capacity for less weight than LiFePO4.
Furthermore, if you don't need 100% DoD (e.g. you need less than its full capacity so most of the time it will only experience 80%-20% or 70%-30% DoD), then it'll take decades to become worse than LiFePO4. Your main concern then will probably be heat and storage conditions, not cycles and DoD.
In 10+ years, there will probably be much better battery options available. So you'll be itching for an upgrade.
One is not superior to the other. They each have their pros and cons. Buy the one which best suits your use case.
I needed one for weekend camping outings and the occasional longer road trip. So I went with Li-ion.
I was also considering getting a small battery for my dashcam to save wear on my car battery when parked. That would've seen multiple charges to 100% each day (every time I drove the car), with a discharge to 0% each night while parked. So if I were getting that, I would've gone with a small LiFePO4.
No that's the regular river, non pro.
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Another time when it was 135f+. I had it inside a car to power a 12v fridge.
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Dealing with gas is a pain in the ass, but you can get a 2k watt inverter gas generator in the same price range:
https://wenproducts.com/products/...l-shut-off
For gas, the little inverter generators are relatively quiet (though obviously not as quiet as the electric battery storage banks), safe for sensitive electronics, and can run for 6 hours on 50% load. You'll want to run non-ethanol based gas, if possible. Again, it's kind of a pain in the ass, but might be a better option depending on your needs.
This unit charges in one hour which is much faster than the Bluetti, but Bluetti is lifepo and has higher Watt per outlet. How does the build quality and reliability compare?
I have a need for extended run time and the UPSs out there will not accommodate my needs without going to commercial level where I can add additional battery packs.
I have a need for extended run time and the UPSs out there will not accommodate my needs without going to commercial level where I can add additional battery packs.
I have a need for extended run time and the UPSs out there will not accommodate my needs without going to commercial level where I can add additional battery packs.
Sign up for a Slickdeals account to remove this ad.
They call it "EPS" for emergency supply since it doesn't meet the very rapid switchover UPSs offer... but most devices won't experience interruptions from the 30ms switching they claim. If you do have a problem, you can always keep a UPS in between the unit and your sensitive device
I was really stoked for the river 2 max, just disappointed they dialed it back in almost every regard.
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