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Only read if you are NOT religious and/or do not believe in any 'supreme' being (othe

77,383 213,040 December 2, 2007 at 08:48 PM in Question
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you dont get the right to feel insulted, u have been warned...

so, peeps, if you dont believe in god, do you feel that ones that do are delusional?

a lot of people will sight karma or other things as 'he got what he had coming' but i argue that it's all a mathematical randomness that on a small scale might seem like karma

perfect example is: when you play poker and u push with the best hand, a LOT of times, you can predict/be so sure that the card will come that will beat you even if the chance of it coming is less than 1:6. when the card comes, some might argue it as karma, but i argue that its all random, just on a small scale randomness doesn't work

discuss....
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Last Edited by Ram|bunc|tious December 6, 2007 at 06:15 AM


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BrgnHntr
12-05-2007 at 05:28 PM.
12-05-2007 at 05:28 PM.
Quote from IVIax :
OK, so for those of you who believe in god will call this a sign, I wont, but I was sitting in the pharmacy waiting for my prescription to be filled, and I saw a book called "55 questions answered about life after death" and it answered most of the questions asked here in this thread with quotes/explanations from the bible (things like do babies go to heaven, will we know each other in heaven, will we see what's going on on Earth, etc. etc. most of the questions asked here).

So for those of you interested you can google it I guess, I don't remember the author Dontknow
Oh Max, you know he's chasin' you! Grin
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ThatOneNotThis
12-05-2007 at 07:15 PM.
12-05-2007 at 07:15 PM.
Quote from IVIax :
OK, so for those of you who believe in god will call this a sign, I wont, but I was sitting in the pharmacy waiting for my prescription to be filled, and I saw a book called "55 questions answered about life after death" and it answered most of the questions asked here in this thread with quotes/explanations from the bible (things like do babies go to heaven, will we know each other in heaven, will we see what's going on on Earth, etc. etc. most of the questions asked here).

So for those of you interested you can google it I guess, I don't remember the author Dontknow
That's so funny Max.. I have been praying for you my friend......

I'm glad to see that you're at least willing to be able to see if God exists. A lot of the times God shows us evidence all around us, but if you're not willing to open your eyes to see them and look for them, then you will not be able to see... I 100% agree w/ Wu about the fact that your experience w/ God is always custom - tailor made for you and nobody else but you... Because He knows you the best, He knows what to show you for you to see the truth, BUT you have to be willing to open your eyes and see them... And each and everyone will have a different experience w/ God.

I think a lot of people have a pre-conceived notion about God... They try to put God in a box and identify it - like some sort of artifact... They try to give Him rules that go way beyond anything that God has told us about Himself. People that don't know him try to say that "He must be this way, and if He is so compassionate and gracious then He must do this, and must do that". All the while completely missing the point that God is sovereign. You can't fit God in a box and call it "god"... You can't make up your own rules that try to govern how He must act, or what He must do. Completely missing the point that God is God... God isn't a math equation that you can try to solve: If this is this, then this MUST be this... No... How could God be God if WE are the ones making rules that govern Him???

Even for atheists or plain "non-believers", the idea that if there was an omnipotent God that controlled all things - it would be a pretty dumb thing to try and have human beings outline how God has to be, and what rules God must follow... Like when people say "why did this bad thing happen, where was God then"? There are a lot of things we DONT know... I don't know about any of you, but the old saying is very true: "If it doesnt kill you, it makes you stronger". Bad things happen to good people all the time; that doesn't mean that God "wasn't" there...

I guess the best way I can describe it is through a hypothetical situation... Let's say you we're driving along one day, and had a really bad car accident...... You ask yourself, God - if you're so good, why did you let that happen to me? Months down the line, you end up meeting your future wife/husband that was the physical therapist that helped you recover from the car wreck..... Now... If that "bad" thing didn't happen to you, you probably never would have met your soulmate......

just my 2 cents worth for the days....
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PiratesSayARRR
12-06-2007 at 01:29 AM.
12-06-2007 at 01:29 AM.
Quote from CovertCelery :

Even for atheists or plain "non-believers", the idea that if there was an omnipotent God that controlled all things - it would be a pretty dumb thing to try and have human beings outline how God has to be, and what rules God must follow... Like when people say "why did this bad thing happen, where was God then"? There are a lot of things we DONT know... I don't know about any of you, but the old saying is very true: "If it doesnt kill you, it makes you stronger". Bad things happen to good people all the time; that doesn't mean that God "wasn't" there...

I guess the best way I can describe it is through a hypothetical situation... Let's say you we're driving along one day, and had a really bad car accident...... You ask yourself, God - if you're so good, why did you let that happen to me? Months down the line, you end up meeting your future wife/husband that was the physical therapist that helped you recover from the car wreck..... Now... If that "bad" thing didn't happen to you, you probably never would have met your soulmate......

just my 2 cents worth for the days....
the point of omnipotent is just that it's everything... but if you can prove that g_d wasn't there at a moment then you can disprove his omnipotence and therefore g_d...

it also doesn't mean that g_d was there...you have to accept the story both ways.

how can you say probably never? there is no justification.... maybe if the bad thing didn't happen I would have a completely different set of experiences and therefore quite possibly a different "soulmate" It isn't a ridiculous notion to consider and should be considered. This also begs the question that if g_d allowed me to crash my car...because he didn't want to interfere with my free will but then by me crashing my car allowed me to meet my soulmate it would suggest some sort of designed plan and then no real free will at all.
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Drio
12-06-2007 at 05:33 AM.
12-06-2007 at 05:33 AM.
Quote from CovertCelery :
I guess the best way I can describe it is through a hypothetical situation... Let's say you we're driving along one day, and had a really bad car accident...... You ask yourself, God - if you're so good, why did you let that happen to me? Months down the line, you end up meeting your future wife/husband that was the physical therapist that helped you recover from the car wreck..... Now... If that "bad" thing didn't happen to you, you probably never would have met your soulmate......

just my 2 cents worth for the days....
Now if you had such faith in god putting you through bad things... only to have better things happen. Why whine about bad things ever happening? You should be all "Great news! My sister-in-law's crackhead ex boyfriend is trying to kill us! Woohoo!" or "We're so blessed... our parents just got into a car accident!" Is the trick that you can't openly expect something good? Is that like blowing out your candles and telling everyone what you wished for?
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~Kimber~
12-06-2007 at 05:37 AM.
12-06-2007 at 05:37 AM.
I've been trying to stay out of this for many reasons, but here is why I don't believe in the Christian God (or any other supreme being for that matter).

He lets bad things happen to children. Period. I will accept no excuse for that.
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Mavtech
12-06-2007 at 05:53 AM.
12-06-2007 at 05:53 AM.
Quote from ~Kimber~ :
I've been trying to stay out of this for many reasons, but here is why I don't believe in the Christian God (or any other supreme being for that matter).

He lets bad things happen to children. Period. I will accept no excuse for that.
This is what I have a REAL hard time with as well. Anyone ever been to All Children's Hospital? We had to take our daughter (2 year old) there because she was complaining about back pain. It is absolutely depressing seeing those sick kids. Children don't deserve to be tested by God like we adults are. It's just not cool.
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Drio
12-06-2007 at 06:14 AM.
12-06-2007 at 06:14 AM.
Quote from Mavtech :
This is what I have a REAL hard time with as well. Anyone ever been to All Children's Hospital? We had to take our daughter (2 year old) there because she was complaining about back pain. It is absolutely depressing seeing those sick kids. Children don't deserve to be tested by God like we adults are. It's just not cool.
Screw that... how about miscarriages? They're ok if god's trying to make a statement or teach a lesson... but abortion is right out.
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Ram|bunc|tious
12-06-2007 at 06:16 AM.
12-06-2007 at 06:16 AM.
Can't believe a mod would hide a wikipost!
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Ram|bunc|tious
12-06-2007 at 06:19 AM.
12-06-2007 at 06:19 AM.
Quote from CovertCelery :
That's so funny Max.. I have been praying for you my friend......

I'm glad to see that you're at least willing to be able to see if God exists. A lot of the times God shows us evidence all around us, but if you're not willing to open your eyes to see them and look for them, then you will not be able to see... I 100% agree w/ Wu about the fact that your experience w/ God is always custom - tailor made for you and nobody else but you... Because He knows you the best, He knows what to show you for you to see the truth, BUT you have to be willing to open your eyes and see them... And each and everyone will have a different experience w/ God.
My father had a great saying "the Lord works in mysterious ways" and this might be one of them.
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Just Peachy
12-06-2007 at 06:35 AM.
12-06-2007 at 06:35 AM.
Quote from ~Kimber~ :
He lets bad things happen to children. Period. I will accept no excuse for that.
Quote from Mavtech :
Children don't deserve to be tested by God like we adults are. It's just not cool.
Quote from Drio :
Screw that... how about miscarriages? They're ok if god's trying to make a statement or teach a lesson... but abortion is right out.
Any chance that free will combined with mans inhumanity to man plays a part in any of this in your minds? If God were responsible for every screw up that occurred in life, wouldn't that then mean that all believe in Him and His laws and that His laws were somehow flawed? There is such a thing as personal responsibility. Everyone is quick to blame but not accept personal responsibility for what occurs. There is evil in the world just as there is goodness. As far as miscarriages go, perhaps it is just that the being would have been so deformed or had some ailment that would have been too much for that being to bear, not being born was more of a blessing. I've had four miscarriages myself so it's not as if I'm not aware of the thoughts that go through a woman's mind on this. I had one of my OB doctors even tell me that miscarriages are a way to keep a very unhealthy baby from being exposed to so much agony. If someone in the medical field can feel that way and reason it out, is it that difficult for most to draw the same conclusions on either side of religion?
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Robor
12-06-2007 at 06:36 AM.
12-06-2007 at 06:36 AM.
Quote from BrgnHntr :
Quote :
Originally Posted by Robor
This (bolded) is where I have a problem with what a lot of evangelicals say about gays and same sex marriage. Most act like gay people choose to be gay. IMO and from what I know of the scientific research they are born that way. Ask yourself this... Did you - I'm assuming a straight person - choose to be straight? Do you think you could ever just decide to be attracted to those of your same sex? If your answer is no then how can you say homosexuals 'choose their own path'?
I don't know if it's a choice to feel gay or not. For all I know they are born that way. My belief is that we are all born with challenges that we have to overcome. Some people are born as kleptomaniacs, but that doesn't make it okay to steal. It's an urge that they have to learn to overcome. Homosexuality is different in that it doesn't infringe upon the rights of another so people should have the right to live that way. However, if I had been born that way, I believe that I should not have acted upon it. Some people choose not to cuss, they believe it's wrong. That doesn't mean that you can't nor would most be offended by them saying they believe it's wrong. It's their belief and their choice.
Did you really just say if you were born gay you would consider it a challenge that you would overcome? Wow. That works very well you know? Just ask Mark Foley and Larry Craig how that worked out for them.

Quote from BrgnHntr :
Quote :
Originally Posted by iconian
what do you all think that in a country with no official religion an seperation between church and state it says: "in god we trust" on money
I believe that the intention of the separation of church and state is misunderstood. The pilgrims left England where the king ran the church. He changed doctine based upon his whims and did not allow religious freedom. They left to obtain that religious freedom and created the separation of church and state to prevent the same thing from happening - the government controlling the church. At the time, the church was very involved in government in Europe. I don't believe it ever crossed their minds that this would be used to keep religion out of government.
IMO that (bolded) is a very scary statement. Look at how the middle east is doing with heavy religious influence in their government/law. I think citizens of this country should have freedom of religion but they should also have freedom from religion.
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~Kimber~
12-06-2007 at 06:42 AM.
12-06-2007 at 06:42 AM.
Quote from Peachyum :
Any chance that free will combined with mans inhumanity to man plays a part in any of this in your minds? If God were responsible for every screw up that occurred in life, wouldn't that then mean that all believe in Him and His laws and that His laws were somehow flawed? There is such a thing as personal responsibility. Everyone is quick to blame but not accept personal responsibility for what occurs. There is evil in the world just as there is goodness. As far as miscarriages go, perhaps it is just that the being would have been so deformed or had some ailment that would have been too much for that being to bear, not being born was more of a blessing. I've had four miscarriages myself so it's not as if I'm not aware of the thoughts that go through a woman's mind on this. I had one of my OB doctors even tell me that miscarriages are a way to keep a very unhealthy baby from being exposed to so much agony. If someone in the medical field can feel that way and reason it out, is it that difficult for most to draw the same conclusions on either side of religion?
Peach, I respect you and others in this thread that see as you do. I will not change your mind and you will not change mine. So I will have to leave it at that. Smilie
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Just Peachy
12-06-2007 at 06:44 AM.
12-06-2007 at 06:44 AM.
Quote from ~Kimber~ :
Peach, I respect you and others in this thread that see as you do. I will not change your mind and you will not change mine. So I will have to leave it at that. Smilie
hug That's fine. I just wanted to proffer a pov that you might not have considered previously. Wink
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Drio
12-06-2007 at 06:57 AM.
12-06-2007 at 06:57 AM.
Quote from Peachyum :
Any chance that free will combined with mans inhumanity to man plays a part in any of this in your minds? If God were responsible for every screw up that occurred in life, wouldn't that then mean that all believe in Him and His laws and that His laws were somehow flawed? There is such a thing as personal responsibility. Everyone is quick to blame but not accept personal responsibility for what occurs. There is evil in the world just as there is goodness. As far as miscarriages go, perhaps it is just that the being would have been so deformed or had some ailment that would have been too much for that being to bear, not being born was more of a blessing. I've had four miscarriages myself so it's not as if I'm not aware of the thoughts that go through a woman's mind on this. I had one of my OB doctors even tell me that miscarriages are a way to keep a very unhealthy baby from being exposed to so much agony. If someone in the medical field can feel that way and reason it out, is it that difficult for most to draw the same conclusions on either side of religion?
Hey... I'm all for 100% personal accountability.... and outiside factors being random chance. I'm just trying to figure out what you guys think god is in charge of and what he isn't.
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Robor
12-06-2007 at 07:03 AM.
12-06-2007 at 07:03 AM.
Quote from Peachyum :
Any chance that free will combined with mans inhumanity to man plays a part in any of this in your minds? If God were responsible for every screw up that occurred in life, wouldn't that then mean that all believe in Him and His laws and that His laws were somehow flawed? There is such a thing as personal responsibility. Everyone is quick to blame but not accept personal responsibility for what occurs. There is evil in the world just as there is goodness. As far as miscarriages go, perhaps it is just that the being would have been so deformed or had some ailment that would have been too much for that being to bear, not being born was more of a blessing. I've had four miscarriages myself so it's not as if I'm not aware of the thoughts that go through a woman's mind on this. I had one of my OB doctors even tell me that miscarriages are a way to keep a very unhealthy baby from being exposed to so much agony. If someone in the medical field can feel that way and reason it out, is it that difficult for most to draw the same conclusions on either side of religion?
What does personal responsibility and inhumanity have to do with a child getting cancer?
There are many situations where children are born with ailments or deformed and wind up living a short life of miserable agony. Why were they not miscarriages? A close friend of mine miscarried a perfectly healthy fetus for the simple reason of her cervix not sealing properly. My friends were devastated. Why was their baby chosen to die?

I realize these are not questions you can answer and I'm not asking you to. I'm just pointing out that it seems like a big cop out to say we as humans can't understand the way god works when something bad happens but when something good happens it's definitely a miracle of god.
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