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Only read if you are NOT religious and/or do not believe in any 'supreme' being (othe
December 2, 2007 at
08:48 PM
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personal attacks will not be tolerated and will be mod alerted, if you wish to set someone apart use generalities, such as specific religion not speific person on SD for example
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you dont get the right to feel insulted, u have been warned...
so, peeps, if you dont believe in god, do you feel that ones that do are delusional?
a lot of people will sight karma or other things as 'he got what he had coming' but i argue that it's all a mathematical randomness that on a small scale might seem like karma
perfect example is: when you play poker and u push with the best hand, a LOT of times, you can predict/be so sure that the card will come that will beat you even if the chance of it coming is less than 1:6. when the card comes, some might argue it as karma, but i argue that its all random, just on a small scale randomness doesn't work
discuss....
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you dont get the right to feel insulted, u have been warned...
so, peeps, if you dont believe in god, do you feel that ones that do are delusional?
a lot of people will sight karma or other things as 'he got what he had coming' but i argue that it's all a mathematical randomness that on a small scale might seem like karma
perfect example is: when you play poker and u push with the best hand, a LOT of times, you can predict/be so sure that the card will come that will beat you even if the chance of it coming is less than 1:6. when the card comes, some might argue it as karma, but i argue that its all random, just on a small scale randomness doesn't work
discuss....
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Last Edited by Ram|bunc|tious
December 6, 2007
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06:15 AM
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What about gravity? does gravity exist? I'm not trying to be mean to you Mav, but you can't say that just because you can't identify it as being something tangible, doesn't mean it doesn't exist...
Remember back even just a hundred years ago or more... People died from bacteria, viruses (black death, plague, etc...).... They couldn't see them, touch them, smell, hear, etc... Yet they still existed.
The only difference is that we now have the capabilities to see them, and know that they are there... People thought that the world was flat too.... They didn't know any better because they couldn't prove it - they just saw the horizon, and thought "well that's where the earth must end". How wrong they were...
All I'm saying is that we don't have a "scientific way" to see God, or touch, or hear, or see him.... Essentially we don't have the scientific knowhow (don't think we ever will) to prove that God DOES NOT EXIST... Once someone finds a scientific way to disprove God's existence - THEN I will believe that God does not indeed exist...
Gravity -- an apple falls on Newton's head, and he calls it gravity. You can't see/feel/touch it, but you have PROOF it's there (unless you want to argue that God makes the apple fall from the tree, but I don't think you're arguing that). The apple falling on Newton's head can NOT be explained by anything except gravity.
Bacteria -- yep, people died from it, and maybe hundreds of years ago they thought God was killing them off, for them misbehaving. We don't know. But they couldn't see it, but they knew SOMETHING was there.
God -- we have no proof that he exists, but we have no proof that he doesn't. BUT some of things people attribute to god, COULD be explained by science. (and that does not apply to the two examples above).
We will all have the same fate on this planet... We will ALL die... This is something that both the religious and scientific communities can BOTH agree on...
The question is this:
When you're lying on your deathbed (if God is mercyful enough for anyone to make it that far) - you will w/o a doubt ask yourself that one question:
Is there something more after this, or is it just the eternal BSOD (black screen of death)? Looking at it from a statistical point of view, you have NOTHING to loose by believing that God exists...
Why?
If you don't believe in God, when you die - and it turns out that there was no God... Fine - you've gained nothing, you've lost nothing. (And even if you think you've gained a bit of "fun" out of life, its not going to matter because you're not gonna be able to tell yourself that you were right - you're dead.....)
If you don't believe in God and you die, only to find out that He does exist - and you farked up... You've lost EVERYTHING. You can't go back and change things, you will be forced w/ the rest of eternity based on the choices you made when you were alive... In this case, you gained nothing, but lost everything...
If you believe in God, you die - and there is no God.... Nothing gained, nothing lost (and after you die and there is no God, it won't matter if you say "I wasted time on God" because there is nothing...
If you believe in God, and die.... You've gained EVERYTHING, and lost NOTHING...
So even statistically, the odds are better for you if you believe in God....
Gravity -- an apple falls on Newton's head, and he calls it gravity. You can't see/feel/touch it, but you have PROOF it's there (unless you want to argue that God makes the apple fall from the tree, but I don't think you're arguing that). The apple falling on Newton's head can NOT be explained by anything except gravity.
Bacteria -- yep, people died from it, and maybe hundreds of years ago they thought God was killing them off, for them misbehaving. We don't know. But they couldn't see it, but they knew SOMETHING was there.
God -- we have no proof that he exists, but we have no proof that he doesn't. BUT some of things people attribute to god, COULD be explained by science. (and that does not apply to the two examples above).
We will all have the same fate on this planet... We will ALL die... This is something that both the religious and scientific communities can BOTH agree on...
The question is this:
When you're lying on your deathbed (if God is mercyful enough for anyone to make it that far) - you will w/o a doubt ask yourself that one question:
Is there something more after this, or is it just the eternal BSOD (black screen of death)? Looking at it from a statistical point of view, you have NOTHING to loose by believing that God exists...
Why?
If you don't believe in God, when you die - and it turns out that there was no God... Fine - you've gained nothing, you've lost nothing. (And even if you think you've gained a bit of "fun" out of life, its not going to matter because you're not gonna be able to tell yourself that you were right - you're dead.....)
If you don't believe in God and you die, only to find out that He does exist - and you farked up... You've lost EVERYTHING. You can't go back and change things, you will be forced w/ the rest of eternity based on the choices you made when you were alive... In this case, you gained nothing, but lost everything...
If you believe in God, you die - and there is no God.... Nothing gained, nothing lost (and after you die and there is no God, it won't matter if you say "I wasted time on God" because there is nothing...
If you believe in God, and die.... You've gained EVERYTHING, and lost NOTHING...
So even statistically, the odds are better for you if you believe in God....
This is the exact reason I cannot stand the idea of organized religion and most of those centered around it. Everything is a scare tactic. Please love g_d and give thanks, be a good person, give money to the church...which then comes down to... if you don't you will go to hell... and of course the above flawed logic. Well it's better to believe in g_d than believe nothing at all because on your death bed "if g_d is so merciful" (scare tactic) then you will be thankful ....yadda yadda yadda.
Eastern schools of thought are very centered around the idea of improving yourself to become a better person for the reason of it being intrinsically valuable and nothing more and CERTAINLY NEVER A MEANS TO AN END. I live my life for the right reasons and what I do in life for the right reasons not because I have a spaghetti monster looking over my shoulder and being graced by his noodley appendage.
This also goes on to say...what makes your religion the right religion. Maybe we should be following muhammad in which case not only was your faith pointless and time on earth pointless but you don't pass go or collect $200.
My background is this: I grew up in a family who went to a fairly status-oriented church. There wasn't really an emphasis on personal relationships with God. I thought I believed, but now I see that it wasn't really faith...just following my parents and those around me. When I went to college, I stopped attending church, finished school, got married, 5 years later faced a huge crisis in my life. Not knowing where to turn, I went back to church. At first I stayed because I liked the people and they were supportive. But then I started noticing the differences in their attitudes and how they spoke about God ad compared to my upbringing and I started to wonder why I didn't have that same experience...did those people really have that experience, what did it feel like, etc. I started praying along the lines of 'if you're there God, please show me some sign.' But nothing much happened and I really started to doubt...but kept did continue to pray along those lines. I did start to experience what I thought might be God, but I wasn't sure. A lot of coincidental things as have been referenced here that I thought were probably God, but could easily be explained away as not. It was quite a while (almost a year) before I really felt confident that God was there with me and it started to be a tangible feeling. He tells me things sometimes that I wouldn't know otherwise.
For example: When we went to get our puppies, we drove to Montana and then through Yellowstone on the way back. Everything went wrong with this trip. The car broke down, we were a day late, the first snow fall of the season left us at the top of a mountain pass and having to turn around and head on a detour down through Wyoming, a rock slide blocked off the part of the park we had intended to visit. An awful lot of coincidences. Maybe that's what they were, maybe not. Either way, despite these setbacks, it was a great trip. We had so much fun together, where things like that would normally have us at each other. I suddenly knew God was telling me something as we drove through Yellowstone. I turned to my husband and I told him that this was a lesson we were learning that we're not in control, but things will still work out great. Not just that, but I knew the reason we were learning that was to relate to my husband's job...it wouldn't turn out as planned, but it would work out well. So, that was a month and a half ago. Then, a month ago (about 2 weeks after Yellowstone), hubby suddely found out that his manager was leaving the group and cancelling my husband's contract despite his earlier promise that it would continue at least another year (that was apparently just to keep him happy temporarily as the manager knew he was leaving). At the same time, the whole group was merged with another and a full time employee (blue badge) was taking over my husband's job and he was to spend the next month and a half training her.
He's spent the last month watching this group fall apart and he's so glad he's leaving. It's a miserable group of people with unstable management and an unclear structure now. He's been active in talking to people and letting them know he's looking (faith doesn't equal laziness) but job opportunities have been flying at him like crazy! He has 2 full loop interviews for full time spots in groups he's really excited about - the one fits him perfectly...and he's so excited about these chances...plus they're full time with all the awesome Microsoft benefits. I normally would have been so worried I'd be driving him nuts, but I've been so calm this time because it wasn't a surprise.
I'm sure you can find a way to explain that away if you really want...but I don't understand why driving in Yellowstone would have anything to do with knowing his job (which was going great at the time) would have anything happening. I know it was God and that's where my faith comes from - I've experienced it. But you won't experience it if you don't desire it because God gives you the free will to not know Him if you don't want.
I'm off to meet some of my friends (from church
We will all have the same fate on this planet... We will ALL die... This is something that both the religious and scientific communities can BOTH agree on...
The question is this:
When you're lying on your deathbed (if God is mercyful enough for anyone to make it that far) - you will w/o a doubt ask yourself that one question:
Is there something more after this, or is it just the eternal BSOD (black screen of death)? Looking at it from a statistical point of view, you have NOTHING to loose by believing that God exists...
Why?
If you don't believe in God, when you die - and it turns out that there was no God... Fine - you've gained nothing, you've lost nothing. (And even if you think you've gained a bit of "fun" out of life, its not going to matter because you're not gonna be able to tell yourself that you were right - you're dead.....)
If you don't believe in God and you die, only to find out that He does exist - and you farked up... You've lost EVERYTHING. You can't go back and change things, you will be forced w/ the rest of eternity based on the choices you made when you were alive... In this case, you gained nothing, but lost everything...
If you believe in God, you die - and there is no God.... Nothing gained, nothing lost (and after you die and there is no God, it won't matter if you say "I wasted time on God" because there is nothing...
If you believe in God, and die.... You've gained EVERYTHING, and lost NOTHING...
So even statistically, the odds are better for you if you believe in God....
You mentioned just a paragraph earlier that God was a merciful being... Why shouldn't he grant mercy to those who didn't believe in him? I HAVE NEVER HAD ANY CONNECTION WITH GOD. Does that mean when I die tomorrow in a fiery car accident, I will be doomed to Hell because I could never find God?
This is why I choose to live my life for myself. I believe that everyone should strive for excellence and find a mean in between their vices. If everyone lived by the golden rule this earth would be much better off.
There are also very good and very bad people who are athiests. Humans in general are imperfect. The Catholic church is a great example, there is a huge history of corruption.
But there are lots of great organizations that just don't get the attention.
You shouldn't group and judge based upon certain examples.
Doesn't anyone wonder what must have gone through his head when he was on his deathbed?..... It was probably: "God I hope I was right".....
Yes, they have Pb isotopes to date w/ - but ummmmm, how are you gonna test a rock that is made up of NOTHING BUT CARBON w/ Pb.....?
Darwin renounced his theory before his death.
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Eastern schools of thought are very centered around the idea of improving yourself to become a better person for the reason of it being intrinsically valuable and nothing more and CERTAINLY NEVER A MEANS TO AN END. I live my life for the right reasons and what I do in life for the right reasons not because I have a spaghetti monster looking over my shoulder and being graced by his noodley appendage.
This also goes on to say...what makes your religion the right religion. Maybe we should be following muhammad in which case not only was your faith pointless and time on earth pointless but you don't pass go or collect $200.
You seem very angry. I'm sorry for whatever bad experiences you've had in your life regarding those who do believe...but we're not all like that.
If that makes sense
If you believe in God, and die.... You've gained EVERYTHING, and lost NOTHING...
So even statistically, the odds are better for you if you believe in God....
--If you didn't believe in god, and there was no god -- nothing gained, nothing lost.
--If you didn't believe in god, and there was a god -- you lost EVERYTHING (assuming god is going to look ONLY at the fact whether you believed or not, and NOT on the fact of how you lived your life.)
--If you did believe in god, and there was no god -- nothing gained, but you lost the time you spend while living your life praising god. Yes some good things did come out of it -- in most cases you became a better person. In some cases people tithe or pay the church or etc, and then they lost money.
--If you did believe in god, and there was a god -- then you won EVERYTHING, period.
Yes the gain is probably somewhat greater than the loss, in all 4 of the above cases, but that still wont make me believe in god. (too many if's and but's).
*sorry to those that take offense that I type God and religions in lower case, it's not a statement that I'm protesting it (maybe subconsciously it is...) I'm just lazy.
As to the things that can not be explained by science, it could be one of two things:
1. We don't have the resources to explain them YET (and possibly never will).
2. God.
I'm not denying the existence of god, I think I'm on the same page as Mav, unless you can prove it to me, I don't believe, but if you can prove it to me, you'll have a believer.
Darwin renounced his theory before his death.
You mentioned just a paragraph earlier that God was a merciful being... Why shouldn't he grant mercy to those who didn't believe in him? I HAVE NEVER HAD ANY CONNECTION WITH GOD. Does that mean when I die tomorrow in a fiery car accident, I will be doomed to Hell because I could never find God?
To be blunt, yes I do believe if you were in a car accident tomorrow (as horrible as that souns to say) that you would not go to heaven. I'm not sure exactly what hell entails, but that is what I believe your fate would be. That's part of the reason that I feel led to talk about my experiences when I have the opportunity or someone asks. I want them to have that chance to know God.
That said: Just because I believe that, you do not have to be angry at me. I'm not forcing you to believe that. If you don't believe it's true, it should have no more impact on you than me saying that the boogie man's gonna get you.
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