Only read if you are NOT religious and/or do not believe in any 'supreme' being (othe

Why would I consider it a flaw on your part to want credit where it's due?

Of course there are not many people who would hold the door open again. I know I wouldn't . But when I picture my God, I don't see him as one that would be so easy to condemn. Maybe the person didn't see you holding the door, maybe they didn't know it was common courtesy to say "thank you", maybe we are just in a hurry and don't want to say anything. God will hold the door open for them a trillion more times because he has the power to do it and he knows he just made that person's life a little easier,(even if they don't know it)

You all have been great.

I can imagine that trying to go over and over something like this, to share your beliefs to people who don't get it, can be very frustrating. It would be easy to throw up your hands and say forget it. I appreciate the patience in this thread. :-)


That being said, I guess that's one thing I don't get.

The creator of all makes good things happen but only allows bad things. So he gets credit for the glory but not the gory? I guess I see some contradiction there. I'm sorry if I just don't get it.

I agree with you on your view of what god is (or should be). And i bet the religious people would say that he does hold the door open a trillion times, but we're not looking hard enough (which could be, I'm not denying it, I don't think that's the case, but I'm not saying for sure that it's not).

But god shouldn't expect praise for holding the door open (and punish those that do not praise him, that would be like #3 in my above example).

Because society conceives it as a flaw (not sure if there are any biblical references, maybe PG or sassy can help out with this one).

It's not good to pat yourself on the back.
Don't be self-centered.
Don't be egotistical
Don't do things just for a thank you, do it out of the goodness of your heart.
Don't be vain
Don't be narcissistic

All common sayings, which point to one thing -- it's not good to expect/want priase. If you get it, be happy, otherwise don't punish the people when you don't get it.

Example: In killerbootsman's example, let's say there are 2 doors, person X holds the first one and doesn't get praise, one of three normal things can happen:
1. he'll hold the second one as well, because he's doing it out of the goodness of his heart
2. he wont hold the second one, because he didn't get praise the first time
3. he'll slam the door in the other persons face because he didn't get praise the first time

Option 2 and 3 are bad, we can all agree on that. IMO your version of god, is doing somewhere in between option 2 and 3.

What? There is nothing wrong with creating something and correcting people if they err in thinking someone else created it. Credit where credit is due. I don't see God down here doing the TD dance or anything but He certainly has the right to adjust a person's thinking if they feel their god did something he/she didn't.

My God would continue to hold the door. Whether or not you choose to go through is your option.

Why would god need the satasfaction of correcting people so that he can get praise? That's what I'm getting at.

That's why I think the analogy with the door is a very good one (whoever thought of it) -- actually there is a #4 (which would be an analogy to your example of correcting) - the person walks through the first door, and then through the second door, and person X (loudly) says "you're welcome".

Hmmm... Since we're talking about odds lets try to relate it to poker. Say the 2008 WSOP (World Series Of Poker) has 10,000 people. Only 1 of them is going to win the grand prize. Between the beginning and end thousands and thousands of hands will be played and I'm willing to bet several of these 'minuscule probabilities' will occur. The path the eventual winner takes from start to finish will likely require improbable outcomes in succession in his/her favor. To me that's not a miracle. It's a matter of poker skill combined with a lot of luck.

Oh jeez, I have only read 2 pages. I'm going to read the rest of the thread but I'm going to give my perspective first.

I grew up Catholic. I went to Catholic school through 10th grade. I hated, hated hated hated going to church as a kid. To me it was so boring and was a waste of time. However I still prayed sometimes, because I did feel like there was "something" watching over me. God? Maybe, who knows? But I kinda felt like it was God and I want to call it God.

In high school there was a short period of time that I liked going to church because I felt *something.* I felt something spiritual inside of me and I liked the idea of going to say hi to whatever was up there looking over me. I got confirmed in the church because it was just something you did when you grow up with a family of such strong religious faith.

However, that didn't last very long, and in college somewhere I lost the good feeling I used to have when I went to church. I felt like it was boring and pointless again.

The last 8 years I've kinda gone back and forth. I do believe there is something watching over me, I feel that I want to call it God, and I think of that as spiritual - NOT religious. Why do I believe it? Because I feel it. When I was going through horrible times this year, sometimes I would lay down in bed and try to let my anxieties float up above me for God to take care of. It helped me on a very deep level to think about things that way.

That kind of thing doesn't happen to me every day. Sometimes when I'm having a rough time I'll talk to God; during some of my mental breakdowns this year I would ask him, why the fark aren't you showing yourself to me? I would BEG him for a sign that things would get better.

So that's my belief, and it's because of an unexplainable feeling I have inside of me.

As far as afterlife, it's a useless, unintelligent argument. We have no idea and when we find out it won't matter anymore. Maybe some people feel there is an afterlife just as I feel that God is watching over me. Honestly, I don't understand how anyone could "feel" there is an afterlife, though.

Me too. I find it so frustrating that I can't compare it to anything else to try and let someone else understand.

Could it be a mixture of fear and hope?

Fear that if there is a god and you don't believe in him, you're going to hell. Fear of other things.
Hope that there is a god, and you're not living your life in vain. Hope that there is an afterlife. Hope of other things.

Could it be a mixture of fear and hope?

Fear that if there is a god and you don't believe in him, you're going to hell. Fear of other things.
Hope that there is a god, and you're not living your life in vain. Hope that there is an afterlife. Hope of other things.

Okay...but you know before you start that one person will win. That's how the game is set up.

In our real life example, there are millions of people and we're not looking for a 'winner'. If there were 10,000 people all battling it out for their heart to make it maybe that would be a valid comparison. As it sits now, I don't agree that the two situations are relevant to each other.

1. It does matter that he gives credit where it's due, because in so doing, he elevates God, gives God glory, and God loves glory, so God in my belief system, would continue to elevate the talents of the surgeon for His own glorification.
2. If his parents' genes contributed, I once again fall back on my God created science and all that goes into it, including the genetic pool, to point to his fantastic genes.
3. If the surgeon received a great education, I credit God with the fabulous professors who taught him and the genes of their parents (see #2).
4. You name it Coincidence, I name it God. The difference between us is that I believe it should be worshipped and that it has physical properties.
5. You addressed the one particular piece of the puzzle that I said you could remove, because it was the one piece being refuted. I'm not clear on why it's the piece you chose to continue refuting. Take him out of the equation, if you wish. The staggering amount of things that had to come together to save my life (not to mention the amount of time I lived in order for them all to come together, and the fact that I'm STILL living, while the overwhelming majority of people with my condition die within weeks after having the surgery I had) is what I'm pointing to as my own personal miracle. Should each person on this board, on the Internet, or in the world believe otherwise, it will never sway what I know to be true. God was on my side that day as he has been in the past, and as he will be in the future.

I'm also very curious as to why you won't type the word "God".