Only read if you are NOT religious and/or do not believe in any 'supreme' being (othe

In essence, God says,
"What if I tell them who they are? What if I take away any element of fear
in condemnation, judgment or rejection?
What if I tell them I love them, will always love them? That I love them
right now, no matter what they've done, as much as I love my only Son?
That there's nothing they can do to make my love go away?
"What if I tell them there are no lists? What if I tell them I don't keep a
log of past offenses, of how little they pray, how often they've let me down,
made promises that they don't keep?
What if I tell them they are righteous, with my righteousness, right now?
What if I tell them they can stop beating themselves up? That they can
stop being so formal, stiff and jumpy around me?
What if I tell them I'm crazy about them? What if I tell them, even if they
run to the ends of the earth and do the most horrible, unthinkable things,
that when they come back, I'd receive them with tears and a party?
"What if I tell them that if I am their Savior, they're going to heaven no
matter what—it's a done deal? What if I tell them they have a new nature—
saints, not saved sinners who should now 'buck up and be better if they were
any kind of Christians, after all He's done for you!'
What if I tell them that I actually live in them now? That I've put my love,
power, and nature inside of them, at their disposal?
What if I tell them that they don't have to put on a mask? That it is OK to
be who they are at this moment, with all their junk. That they don't need to
pretend about how close we are, how much they pray or don't, how much
Bible they read or don't?
What if they knew they don't have to look over their shoulder for fear if
things get too good, the other shoe's gonna drop?
"What if they knew I will never, ever use the word "punish" in relation to
them?
What if they knew that when they mess up, I will never "get back at them?"
What if they were convinced that bad circumstances aren't my way of
evening the score for taking advantage of me?
What if they knew the basis of our friendship isn't how little they sin, but
how much they let me love them?
What if I tell them they can hurt my heart, but that I never hurt theirs?
What if I tell them I like Eric Clapton's music too?
What if I tell them I never really liked the Christmas handbell deal with the
white gloves?
What if I tell them they can open their eyes when they pray and still go to
heaven?
What if I tell them there is no secret agenda, no trapdoor?
What if I tell them it isn't about their self-effort, but about allowing me to
live my life through them?"

That's awesome. Seriously. But, I still don't understand how that is proof that God had a hand in it. There's medical stories that blow the minds of the doctors all the time. Why is there no chance that you were just very very lucky? I'm not trying to be difficult. I seriously like to know why people always attribute stuff like this to be the hand of God. With 4+ billion people on the earth, hundreds of thousands of people near death, thousands of those coming back from death, why you? Why then? Why not just keep it from happening in the first place? Is he toying with you? Does he like to play games? Is he testing you? Teaching you a lesson? Did he just get there in the nick of time? Was he busy? Is that why he was almost too late?

There was some discussions awhile back on God's nature. For some reason, I have a hard time putting all of that into words without God sounding condemning, or judgmental, or powerless.

But I've heard two "sermons" that hit me every single time I hear 'em. The first is by John Lynch.


And the second is from the late S.M. Lockridge. (3 min youtube video [youtube.com])

The first one was just a bunch of questions... where's the answer

I dunno but the proof is in the pudding... er... pie

hehehehehehe

[snarfd.com]

That's awesome. Seriously. But, I still don't understand how that is proof that God had a hand in it. There's medical stories that blow the minds of the doctors all the time. Why is there no chance that you were just very very lucky? I'm not trying to be difficult. I seriously like to know why people always attribute stuff like this to be the hand of God. With 4+ billion people on the earth, hundreds of thousands of people near death, thousands of those coming back from death, why you? Why then? Why not just keep it from happening in the first place? Is he toying with you? Does he like to play games? Is he testing you? Teaching you a lesson? Did he just get there in the nick of time? Was he busy? Is that why he was almost too late?

SlicKitty, I think I see where you're coming from now.

You're using god as a way to make yourself a better person.
You use god to keep you sane during the times when you don't know where else to turn.
You're using god to answer the questions that you have no answer for.
You're using god to believe in something, to make yourself feel whole.

IMO you're using god for personal gain. (nothing wrong with that, if it makes you feel better about yourself and makes you a better person).

Mavtech, I can't "prove" it to you. I can prove it to me. I can probably convince everyone who knows me personally, simply because of the way in which they all know me.

Honestly, I couldn't even prove to you that my cat exists...or my husband, or my right hand. I can't prove it to you. I just know. It's like love, to me. I can't prove to my husband that I love him. I can kiss him, I can show him affection, but he can't be absolutely positive that I truly love him. God is known through faith, not proof. For me, He has reciprocated my faith and I feel His presence and that's proof for me. Maybe it just doesn't make sense unless you've experienced it, but once you have, it will.

I don't think people always attribute "stuff like this" to the hand of God. As you said, there are medical stories all the time that blow the minds of doctors. To the best of my reading, not all of them have been attributed to God. Perhaps those that have are told by people who have experienced something similar to what I have experienced.

As far as the "nick of time" question, if I'd been earlier to the hospital, that particular surgeon would have been in surgery and I'd have had another (perhaps less qualified??) surgeon. Several Italian surgeons came to my room to study the work that Gabriel had done on me. They stood around nodding...staring...studying, so I know he was truly talented and revered. Another surgeon may have been death for me. Had I been there later, I think I know what would have happened. I think God does not give me (I'd say "us", but I don't want to include those who choose not to be so included) anything before we need it, or after we need it, but exactly when we need it.

As far as why people die, well I certainly can't answer that for you, but eventually, I do expect to die. I expect we'll all die. If we didn't, I guess there'd be a lot of people hangin' around. I don't claim to understand everything about the design of the world, or why God does what he does, or why bad things happen to good people, but I know they'd happen whether I believed or not and a close relationship with God has made a big difference in my own life. There have been lots of bad, bad, dark times (just pointing to the Vascular Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome will show that), but they've been better for knowing God, personally.

Mavtech, I really think she experienced a miracle.
http://ejcts.ctsnetjournals.org/c...t/28/4/650

I think God protects us until it is time for us to go home. Death to you is scary. When I almost choked to death I went to an incredibly peaceful place. Most people who have "near death experiences" do Not want to come back, and are never afraid of death again.

Your love for your husband is something you feel and know is there. It's an emotion. I know it's in me because I feel it. You can also have that emotion reciprocated by your SO.

Yes! Totally!


You know that's not at all the case. If all I wanted was to feel better about myself and be a better person, I'd meditate, drink herbal tea, and become a Vegan.

How in the world does anything I've said make me a better person, make me more sane, give me anything more to believe in than anyone else has (others here believe in coincidence, etc.), or give me more answers? Clearly, God/religion presents more questions than answers. IMO, you're attempting to reduce everything I've said over pages of thread to not very much. If that's what it is to you, so be it. I hope it's more to others.

Good night, all!

SlicKitty, I think I see where you're coming from now.

You're using god as a way to make yourself a better person.
You use god to keep you sane during the times when you don't know where else to turn.
You're using god to answer the questions that you have no answer for.
You're using god to believe in something, to make yourself feel whole.

IMO you're using god for personal gain. (nothing wrong with that, if it makes you feel better about yourself and makes you a better person).

So, if I took a picture of a hand, husband, or cat and told you it was mine, you'd believe me?

This is exactly how I feel about God. I have to tell you, I'd know Him without a Bible. I feel it. I know it.