Only read if you are NOT religious and/or do not believe in any 'supreme' being (othe

I think God would be understanding of an agnostic, but I also think the Bible portrays unbelievers as sinning, so I don't know. It does say Jesus is the only way, so if God believed you were wrong, I would see it like this...

When did I say I look down on homosexuals? Not thinking something is right and looking down on someone are two different things. I don't like words being put in my mouth. Just because I don't believe it's a path I should take doesn't mean I don't respect others in their right to choose their own path.

I'm catching up with this thread, but here are a few more thoughts:

Assuming there is a God, no one can say that because Drio chose not to believe during his lifetime, but at the last moment he realizes he was wrong and changes his mind, that he would not be accepted by God.

To me, that completely goes against what Christianity is about; to have that attitude sounds more to me like a personal position based on " Well, why should he get in after doing so little. It's not fair!!" Anyone who tells someone else that they will go to "hell" or will not partake in the afterlife (assuming there is one) is overstepping their boundaries. If one truly believes on God as taught in Christianity, there is no one on Earth able to make a call as to whether or not a certain person can be a part of eternal life.

Mavtech, I can't "prove" it to you. I can prove it to me. I can probably convince everyone who knows me personally, simply because of the way in which they all know me.

Honestly, I couldn't even prove to you that my cat exists...or my husband, or my right hand. I can't prove it to you. I just know. It's like love, to me. I can't prove to my husband that I love him. I can kiss him, I can show him affection, but he can't be absolutely positive that I truly love him. God is known through faith, not proof. For me, He has reciprocated my faith and I feel His presence and that's proof for me. Maybe it just doesn't make sense unless you've experienced it, but once you have, it will.

I don't think people always attribute "stuff like this" to the hand of God. As you said, there are medical stories all the time that blow the minds of doctors. To the best of my reading, not all of them have been attributed to God. Perhaps those that have are told by people who have experienced something similar to what I have experienced.

As far as the "nick of time" question, if I'd been earlier to the hospital, that particular surgeon would have been in surgery and I'd have had another (perhaps less qualified??) surgeon. Several Italian surgeons came to my room to study the work that Gabriel had done on me. They stood around nodding...staring...studying, so I know he was truly talented and revered. Another surgeon may have been death for me. Had I been there later, I think I know what would have happened. I think God does not give me (I'd say "us", but I don't want to include those who choose not to be so included) anything before we need it, or after we need it, but exactly when we need it.

As far as why people die, well I certainly can't answer that for you, but eventually, I do expect to die. I expect we'll all die. If we didn't, I guess there'd be a lot of people hangin' around. I don't claim to understand everything about the design of the world, or why God does what he does, or why bad things happen to good people, but I know they'd happen whether I believed or not and a close relationship with God has made a big difference in my own life. There have been lots of bad, bad, dark times (just pointing to the Vascular Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome will show that), but they've been better for knowing God, personally.

It does make more sense, thanks, but in a way it backs up parts of what I said earlier.
Again, not that it's a bad thing, it's just the way I see it.


Let me explain where that comment actually came from (I think Mav could understand where I'm coming from as well). The case of your surgery, there was a VERY small chance you'd survive (and I'm not belittling what happened to you), instead of saying luck (to which you have no answer for, you wouldn't understand how that small chance of survival actually landed on you -- and all of the things in day had to happen exactly as they did, and in your mind it can't just be luck), you say it was god.

So that's what I meant by god answers questions.

Not all people attribute these types of 'medical miracles' to the hand of god but nearly all people of faith do. We (agnostic/atheist) hear it all the time. If someone had a near miss or was in an accident and unhurt it was their 'guardian angel' or 'god was watching over them'. Or maybe it was just the 'God is my Co-Pilot' plate? Seriously though, it just seems like if god can save someone from something like a ruptured aorta wouldn't it have been better to make the aorta not rupture in the first place?

This (bolded) is where I have a problem with what a lot of evangelicals say about gays and same sex marriage. Most act like gay people choose to be gay. IMO and from what I know of the scientific research they are born that way. Ask yourself this... Did you - I'm assuming a straight person - choose to be straight? Do you think you could ever just decide to be attracted to those of your same sex? If your answer is no then how can you say homosexuals 'choose their own path'?

Hi BEG,

I decided, because I thought about not being attracted to men and being attracted to women instead. I do think both women and men are attractive, but I only have sex with men. For me, it was a choice.


EDIT: Oops, sorry to have told the same story as Sassy!

Thank you, SK.

I have read the Bible and studied it. I don't claim to have it memorized, but I am well-versed in it. As far as a relationship with God, no, I no longer have that. But, I am not an Atheist. Like Mavtech, I am a fence-sitter. I consider myself Agnostic. There was a time when I gave my soul and heart to my faith, but that day has passed.

I understand your faith, and I understand the faith of others in this thread. I used to be there, so I know how it feels to have that in your heart. I know most have doubts at some point, but I've moved beyond simple doubt. It was a very hard realization and very hard for to me admit that I was losing my belief in God.

I feel like I need to explore the fact that there may not be a God. I feel that as strongly as I felt that there was one before, and that I should study Him.

Just an FYI... I am not asking for answers in this thread. I appreciate scripture and discussion, but I don't want anyone to feel the responsibility to give me any answers. I wouldn't ask that of anyone.

A man by the name of Sydney Harris said it this way - "There's no point in burying a hatchet if you're going to put up a marker on the site."

I decided, because I thought about not being attracted to men and being attracted to women instead. I do think both women and men are attractive, but I only have sex with men. For me, it was a choice.

EDIT: Oops, sorry to have told the same story as Sassy!

Here is an interesting article:

http://www.russpickett.com/basic/forgive.htm

I was looking for info om deathbed forgiveness (and there are strong arguments for both sides, and scripture to support both sides. Anyway, I can across that bit about forgiveness. Good stuff in general, even if one is not a Christian, but I like this:

It's true and I agree. If you can't forgive and let it go, what's the point in doing it to begin with.

what do you all think that in a country with no official religion an seperation between church and state it says: "in god we trust" on money