Slickdeals is community-supported.  We may get paid by brands for deals, including promoted items.
Forum Thread

How about those Pats!!!

4,763 2,588 February 1, 2015 at 08:08 PM in News (3)
hugCoolBig Grinwootworshipworship

195 Comments

Your comment cannot be blank.

Sign up for a Slickdeals account to remove this ad.

Joined Jul 2005
L10: Grand Master
> bubble2 10,159 Posts
z2g
02-06-2015 at 12:29 PM.
02-06-2015 at 12:29 PM.
Quote from fireballs :
Is there any factual evidence beyond hearsay that any other teams are doing this?

This argument seems like kindergarten level. "Well they did it first" "everyone else is doing it" "I didn't know that I couldn't do that"

Really? This is a multi billion dollar a year industry and people are going to use excuses that a 5 year old would make?

As of now the Patriots are guilty of playing with balls that didn't meet league regulations. If the Patriots or Patriots fans want the Pats exonerated they need to stop with the kid games and start providing actual evidence.
It's just common knowledge in sports that teams try to gain an advantage by trying the sneak a peek at their opponents' signals or calls. If you don't think it happens everyday, then keep believing it.

As far as the Patriots having to prove anything, actually you're WRONG. The Patriots have already denied any wrongdoing to the league and to the media. If the NFL now wants to punish the Patriots, they have to prove that the team knowingly did something wrong. That can be testimony, video, or any other evidence proving that the Patriots doctored their game balls.

More importantly though, the league and media have since learned from numerous scientists that the weather/temperature conditions of that day CAN decrease the balls by 2 lbs of pressure. So, the NFL must prove that it wasn't game day conditions that contributed to the decrease in air pressure.

If the NFL just arbitrarily punishes any team without any evidence, it'll be appealed and the arbitrator/judge will rescind the punishment.
Reply
Joined Jul 2005
L10: Grand Master
> bubble2 10,159 Posts
z2g
02-06-2015 at 12:32 PM.
02-06-2015 at 12:32 PM.
Quote from boboli :
Where is this data? Bill Belichick's own study?? Oh that's credible!! NOT! If those so-called 'science' trials are correct, how come NONE of the Colts balls were affected??

"For the Patriots to blame a change in temperature for 15% lower-pressures, requires balls to be inflated with 125-degree air."
LINK [mediaite.com]


DATA [go.com]

"All of the balls the Colts used met standards, according to the report.

Meanwhile, a source told WEEI.com that the Patriots used 12 backup balls for the second half against the Colts after issues were found with most of the originals. Patriots spokesman Stacey James confirmed that the team had 24 balls total available, WEEI reported.

Under NFL rules, no alteration of the footballs is allowed once they are approved. If a person is found breaking league rules and tampering with the footballs, that person could face up to a $25,000 fine and potentially more discipline."

Why weren't the Patriots fined $25K then??? 11 of 12 balls is BREAKING THE RULE! Guess it pays to have the commissioner at your home parties on the eve of a championship game!
Again, the NFL must prove that the Patriots (or any other team) tampered with the balls to change the ball air pressures outside of the allowed amount. The mere fact that the balls weren't within that allowed amount does NOT warrant immediate fine or punishment.

Anti-Patriots ppl out there! Please understand the fact that the NFL (and every other professional sports league out there) has a governing body of rules and policies that must be followed. When an accusation is made, the NFL must investigate it and get supporting evidence in order to punish the team/player.

The evidence does NOT have to be up to the par of a criminal case (beyond reasonable doubt), it only has to be enough to sway a judge in civil court (by preponderance of the evidence).

What does that mean? It can be video of team staff altering the balls, testimony of team staff witnessing or confessing to altering the balls, or a printed team memo ordering the balls to be altered during games against league rules (unlikely this will though!). The fact is that there MUST be evidence!
Reply
Last edited by z2g February 6, 2015 at 12:43 PM.
Joined Nov 2007
L6: Expert
> bubble2 1,469 Posts
1,496 Reputation
boboli
02-06-2015 at 12:40 PM.
02-06-2015 at 12:40 PM.
Quote from z2g :
Again, the NFL must prove that the Patriots (or any other team) tampered with the balls to change the ball air pressures outside of the allowed amount. The mere fact that the balls weren't within that allowed amount does NOT warrant immediate fine or punishment.

Anti-Patriots ppl out there! Please understand the fact that the NFL (and every other professional sports league out there) has a governing body of rules and policies that must be followed. When an accusation is made, the NFL must investigate it and get supporting evidence in order to punish the team/player.

The evidence does NOT have to be up to the par of a criminal case (beyond reasonable doubt), it only has to be enough to sway a judge in civil court (by preponderance of the evidence).
Then under these rules, shouldn't the same due process be given to Marshawn Lynch for an 'ALLEGED' obscene gesture? He was fined $20K immediately with no investigation
Reply
Joined Jul 2005
L10: Grand Master
> bubble2 10,159 Posts
z2g
02-06-2015 at 12:44 PM.
02-06-2015 at 12:44 PM.
Quote from boboli :
Then under these rules, shouldn't the same due process be given to Marshawn Lynch for an 'ALLEGED' obscene gesture? He was fined $20K immediately with no investigation
Eye witness testimony is considered evidence.
Reply
Joined Feb 2008
L9: Master
> bubble2 4,384 Posts
389 Reputation
jeepdog
02-06-2015 at 01:02 PM.
02-06-2015 at 01:02 PM.
Quote from PaintTheSkyGrey :
Now you're engaging in strawman arguments.

My argument for spygate was not that it was not breaking the rules because everyone else was doing it. It was that, is it really considered "cheating" when it's only a technical difference from what everyone else is doing that provides no real advantage?
So your argument is that they did cheat like everyone says they did, but that it shouldn't be considered cheating because it was "only a technical difference from what everyone else is doing that provides no real advantage"? Even though that "technical difference" is exactly what was spelled out in the rules as being illegal. And despite the fact that no one can speak to them not actually getting an advantage from the cheating. They certainly got access to opposing teams information that no other team got.
Reply
Joined Jul 2009
Permanently Bland
> bubble2 15,176 Posts
2,874 Reputation
PaintTheSkyGrey
02-06-2015 at 01:08 PM.
02-06-2015 at 01:08 PM.
Quote from jeepdog :
So your argument is that they did cheat like everyone says they did, but that it shouldn't be considered cheating because it was "only a technical difference from what everyone else is doing that provides no real advantage"? Even though that "technical difference" is exactly what was spelled out in the rules as being illegal. And despite the fact that no one can speak to them not actually getting an advantage from the cheating. They certainly got access to opposing teams information that no other team got.
Proof, please.
Reply
Joined Feb 2008
L9: Master
> bubble2 4,384 Posts
389 Reputation
jeepdog
02-06-2015 at 01:14 PM.
02-06-2015 at 01:14 PM.
Quote from PaintTheSkyGrey :
Proof, please.
Was anyone else accused of doing what they did?
Reply

Sign up for a Slickdeals account to remove this ad.

Joined Jul 2009
Permanently Bland
> bubble2 15,176 Posts
2,874 Reputation
PaintTheSkyGrey
02-06-2015 at 01:23 PM.
02-06-2015 at 01:23 PM.
Quote from jeepdog :
Was anyone else accused of doing what they did?
They certainly got access to opposing teams information that no other team got
Is what you claimed. Please provide evidence of this.
Reply
Joined Feb 2008
L9: Master
> bubble2 4,384 Posts
389 Reputation
jeepdog
02-06-2015 at 01:31 PM.
02-06-2015 at 01:31 PM.
Quote from PaintTheSkyGrey :
They certainly got access to opposing teams information that no other team got
Is what you claimed. Please provide evidence of this.
Yes, and I asked "Was any other team accused of doing what the Patriots did?".
Reply
Joined Jul 2009
Permanently Bland
> bubble2 15,176 Posts
2,874 Reputation
PaintTheSkyGrey
02-06-2015 at 01:33 PM.
02-06-2015 at 01:33 PM.
Quote from jeepdog :
Yes, and I asked "Was any other team accused of doing what the Patriots did"?
No, but the two are not mutually exclusive. I am asking you to prove that by violating the technicality, they obtained information that other teams did not obtain within the rules of the technicality.

The coach that reported them even effectively said there was virtually no difference between what they were doing and what other teams do, he just didn't like them violating the rules on his field.
Reply
Joined Feb 2008
L9: Master
> bubble2 4,384 Posts
389 Reputation
jeepdog
02-06-2015 at 01:41 PM.
02-06-2015 at 01:41 PM.
Quote from PaintTheSkyGrey :
No, but the two are not mutually exclusive. I am asking you to prove that by violating the technicality, they obtained information that other teams did not obtain within the rules of the technicality.

The coach that reported them even effectively said there was virtually no difference between what they were doing and what other teams do, he just didn't like them violating the rules on his field.
So they videotaped the Jets coaches from a location that no other team had access to, thus got a view of the coaches and plays that no other team had access to, and you think they gained no additional or different information from what the rest of the teams, that didnt cheat, gained? Of course they did. Otherwise they wouldn't have been doing it for so long.
Reply
Joined Jul 2009
Permanently Bland
> bubble2 15,176 Posts
2,874 Reputation
PaintTheSkyGrey
02-06-2015 at 01:58 PM.
02-06-2015 at 01:58 PM.
Quote from jeepdog :
So they videotaped the Jets coaches from a location that no other team had access to, thus got a view of the coaches and plays that no other team had access to, and you think they gained no additional or different information from what the rest of the teams, that didnt cheat, gained? Of course they did. Otherwise they wouldn't have been doing it for so long.
And I'm asking you to prove it.

Unless all you have are your assumptions.
Reply
Joined Nov 2005
L10: Grand Master
> bubble2 39,439 Posts
5,562 Reputation
Dr. J
02-06-2015 at 03:17 PM.
02-06-2015 at 03:17 PM.
Quote from boboli :
Where is this data? Bill Belichick's own study?? Oh that's credible!! NOT! If those so-called 'science' trials are correct, how come NONE of the Colts balls were affected??

"For the Patriots to blame a change in temperature for 15% lower-pressures, requires balls to be inflated with 125-degree air."
LINK [mediaite.com]


DATA [go.com]

"All of the balls the Colts used met standards, according to the report.

Meanwhile, a source told WEEI.com that the Patriots used 12 backup balls for the second half against the Colts after issues were found with most of the originals. Patriots spokesman Stacey James confirmed that the team had 24 balls total available, WEEI reported.

Under NFL rules, no alteration of the footballs is allowed once they are approved. If a person is found breaking league rules and tampering with the footballs, that person could face up to a $25,000 fine and potentially more discipline."

Why weren't the Patriots fined $25K then??? 11 of 12 balls is BREAKING THE RULE! Guess it pays to have the commissioner at your home parties on the eve of a championship game!

The ideal gas law indicates that for a constant volume, pressure and temperature changes are proportional, on an absolute basis. From 80 to 50F, realistic assumptions for a hot locker room and the field of play, you'd lose about 5.6% of pressure on an absolute basis (yeah don't forget to convert those temps to R or K!). 12.5 and 13.5 PSI balls would deflate to 11 and 11.9 PSI, respectively, BOTH below the required range (a drop of around 1.6 PSI each). It seems Mr Tyson forgets the difference between GAUGE and ABSOLUTE pressures [facebook.com]. 125F vs 50F would reduce the pressures by appx 3.6 PSI. fark, I am a chemical engineer and know this..... but at least he corrected himself.

A lot of information has come out since that first weekend and honestly it all tends to be less sensational. For example, there are NO records of the original inflation values; the ref is not required to note them, only give a go/no go. Further, the underinflated amounts have gone down (to ~ 1 PSI) and the only extraneous ball (1-2 PSI) happened to be the intercepted one which had a questionable chain of custody.

If proof can be found they altered the balls, let them be disciplined per the rules, but otherwise, it's up to the NFL to prove malfeasance, not the Patriots to prove innocence.
Reply
Joined Jul 2009
Permanently Bland
> bubble2 15,176 Posts
2,874 Reputation
PaintTheSkyGrey
02-06-2015 at 03:54 PM.
02-06-2015 at 03:54 PM.
Quote from Dr. J :
The ideal gas law indicates that for a constant volume, pressure and temperature changes are proportional, on an absolute basis. From 80 to 50F, realistic assumptions for a hot locker room and the field of play, you'd lose about 5.6% of pressure on an absolute basis (yeah don't forget to convert those temps to R or K!). 12.5 and 13.5 PSI balls would deflate to 11 and 11.9 PSI, respectively, BOTH below the required range (a drop of around 1.6 PSI each). It seems Mr Tyson forgets the difference between GAUGE and ABSOLUTE pressures [facebook.com]. 125F vs 50F would reduce the pressures by appx 3.6 PSI. fark, I am a chemical engineer and know this..... but at least he corrected himself.

A lot of information has come out since that first weekend and honestly it all tends to be less sensational. For example, there are NO records of the original inflation values; the ref is not required to note them, only give a go/no go. Further, the underinflated amounts have gone down (to ~ 1 PSI) and the only extraneous ball (1-2 PSI) happened to be the intercepted one which had a questionable chain of custody.

If proof can be found they altered the balls, let them be disciplined per the rules, but otherwise, it's up to the NFL to prove malfeasance, not the Patriots to prove innocence.
Actually, the NFL itself said that most of the balls were only "a few ticks under" the minimum.
Reply

Sign up for a Slickdeals account to remove this ad.

Joined Nov 2005
L10: Grand Master
> bubble2 39,439 Posts
5,562 Reputation
Dr. J
02-06-2015 at 03:58 PM.
02-06-2015 at 03:58 PM.
Quote from PaintTheSkyGrey :
Actually, the NFL itself said that most of the balls were only "a few ticks under" the minimum.

The fact remains that there have been ZERO hard data released on the inflations - meaning NUMBERS. These should be readily available, but without "pre-deflation" numbers (see my previous comment on the lack of logging requirements of pre-game inflation values), current inflations aren't that useful. As I said in the other thread, the NFL could have divulged a LOT of this info pretty much on day #1 and did away with speculation, but they haven't, which leads me to believe they are hoping it will blow over because they were caught with their pants down, not because of some grand conspiracy theory involving Kraft and the Commish.
Reply
Page 11 of 14
Start the Conversation
 

More Sports Equipment Deals & Discounts

Link Copied

The link has been copied to the clipboard.