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Capital One: 11-Month 360 CD Expired

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Capital One is offering a 11-Month 360 Certificate of Deposit at 5% APY with no minimum deposit.

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Edited February 24, 2023 at 12:11 AM by
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So I started to ladder T-Bills for the reasons everyone is stating in this thread. The rate is so volatile (in a good way) that locking into anything even 12 months is too long for me and rates continue to climb. I use fidelity and my suggestion is this.

When they offer the new 4 week and 8 week and 13 week t-bill (they auction on diff days and diff weeks) go in and buy one of each of them with whatever money you can spare. Let's use 5k for each.

I would buy a 4 week t-bill with NO Rollover for 5k
I would buy an 8 week t-bill with NO Rollover for 5k
I would buy a 13 week t-bill WITH Rollover for 5k

Then after 4 weeks when that first on comes up, buy another 13 week t-bill with the 5k WITH Rollover.
Then after 8 weeks when the second comes up, buy another 13 week t-bill with the 5k WITH Rollover.

Now you will have 3 13 week t-bills rolling every 4 weeks or so and rolling into a new one with the proceeds. This way every 4 weeks you are capturing an increasing rate and not locked into anything longer than 13 weeks. You benefit from the rate hikes, can cash out at any time, and you have state tax shelter from the earned interest.

I can almost guarantee that the above will yield you more net income (taking in tax break) at the end of 11months then the 5% locked CD

just my 2cents
You can buy treasuries from just about any brokerage. I use Fidelity, as I like their platform and they don't charge fees/commissions for treasuries.
Fidelity Fixed Income Page [fidelity.com]
Follow the above link and scroll down to the row "U.S. Treasury." Choose the duration you want and click on it. You can then click "buy" to start a trade of a specific treasury bill/bond.
Fidelity's Intro to Treasuries [fidelity.com]
This is true, but it doesn't make an 11-month CD at 5% a bad idea. Those HYS can change their rates at any time, but here you're guaranteed to get 5%.

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Joined Nov 2014
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> bubble2 2,180 Posts
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TurtlePerson2
03-02-2023 at 01:13 PM.
03-02-2023 at 01:13 PM.
Quote from Pi.314 :
i guess for me, it's my brokerage.
schwab doesnt seem to have tbills at auction, just secondary market?
Secondary market is a lot easier anyhow. I'm not aware of any advantage with going to auction.
Reply
Joined Jan 2008
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> bubble2 734 Posts
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Diz
03-02-2023 at 01:15 PM.
03-02-2023 at 01:15 PM.
Quote from TurtlePerson2 :
I just don't get this. It takes me a few seconds to buy T-Bills and people are acting like it's a hassle.

Maybe it's easy for me because I already have a brokerage account and have been trading stocks for decades, but I don't get what's so hard about T-Bills. Honestly, it's way more trouble to open a bank account/CD than it is to trade T-Bills if you already have a brokerage account.
I just retired at 46 and am about to travel extensively for months at a time. After hustling for years on end, I value simplicity and a "set it and forget" approach. I've literally closed 20+ bank accounts over the past couple of months and am down to only a handful. One of the last things I want to do while traveling is follow-up on this kind of thing. I paid my dues and put in the work and effort. Now, it's almost time to reap the benefits and not have a worry about this kind of stuff.
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Joined Nov 2014
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> bubble2 2,180 Posts
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TurtlePerson2
03-02-2023 at 01:18 PM.
03-02-2023 at 01:18 PM.
Quote from Pi.314 :
i needed a 2month tbill for my 3 month ladder.
i picked the highest apr tbill offered on schwab that matures in 2 months.

apparently i bought a 7yr tbill on the secondary market that matures on 4/30/23. EEK!
i think it pays 1.625% interest.
so i think i'm going to make $20 on it?

$20 profit on $10k in 2 months is waaaaaaaay less than the 4.8% apr advertised for it.
soooooo confused!
The yield probably includes a final coupon payment. You'll get 1.625%*$10k + $20. I don't know whether the coupon is yearly or quarterly or what. Also, it's possible that the seller was paid some amount of that upcoming coupon payment. You could probably figure out all of this, but I wouldn't worry about it. If your brokerage said that your yield to maturity for the trade was X, then it's X.
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Joined Nov 2014
L7: Teacher
> bubble2 2,180 Posts
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TurtlePerson2
03-02-2023 at 01:22 PM.
03-02-2023 at 01:22 PM.
Quote from Diz :
I just retired at 46 and am about to travel extensively for months at a time. After hustling for years on end, I value simplicity and a "set it and forget" approach. I've literally closed 20+ bank accounts over the past couple of months and am down to only a handful. One of the last things I want to do while traveling is follow-up on this kind of thing. I paid my dues and put in the work and effort. Now, it's almost time to reap the benefits and not have a worry about this kind of stuff.
Congrats on the early retirement! I'm on track to retire in my early 40s as well.

The XHLF ETF would probably be good for you then. Earn more than a CD, get the tax treatment from treasuries, and don't worry about maturities or picking new investments. With the CD, you've got to check in on that every time it matures.
Reply
Joined Jan 2008
L5: Journeyman
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Diz
03-02-2023 at 01:23 PM.
03-02-2023 at 01:23 PM.
Quote from TurtlePerson2 :
Congrats on the early retirement! I'm on track to retire in my early 40s as well.

The XHLF ETF would probably be good for you then. Earn more than a CD, get the tax treatment from treasuries, and don't worry about maturities or picking new investments. With the CD, you've got to check in on that every time it matures.
I'm looking into this ETF as I respond to you. Thanks very much, and fellow congrats. The grind is worth the benefit!
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Joined Aug 2015
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> bubble2 3,182 Posts
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Pi.314
03-02-2023 at 01:38 PM.
03-02-2023 at 01:38 PM.
Quote from bmwkbiker :
Treasury Auctions Look a little harder, or clean your glasses.

Watch this: https://www.schwab.com/content/ho...treasuries
thx.
had to switch bond type from 'municipal bonds' to 'treasury auctions' to see it
Reply
Last edited by Pi.314 March 2, 2023 at 02:25 PM.
Joined Nov 2014
L2: Beginner
> bubble2 49 Posts
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bmwkbiker
03-02-2023 at 01:59 PM.
03-02-2023 at 01:59 PM.
Quote from TurtlePerson2 :
Secondary market is a lot easier anyhow. I'm not aware of any advantage with going to auction.
A lot of people aren't capable of unwinding/understanding all the nuances of the secondary market. Fortunately, for them, the market is so liquid they will get a decent price even if they are clueless.
Reply
Last edited by bmwkbiker March 2, 2023 at 03:22 PM.

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Joined Nov 2014
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bmwkbiker
03-02-2023 at 02:22 PM.
03-02-2023 at 02:22 PM.
Quote from Pi.314 :
i needed a 2month tbill for my 3 month ladder.
i picked the highest apr tbill offered on schwab that matures in 2 months.

apparently i bought a 7yr tbill on the secondary market that matures on 4/30/23. EEK!
i think it pays 1.625% interest.
so i think i'm going to make $20 on it?

$20 profit on $10k in 2 months is waaaaaaaay less than the 4.8% apr advertised for it.
soooooo confused!
Can't believe I'm taking the time to do this but I'll unwind it for you.
Back of the envelope calculation:
  • The ask was something like 99.5 or $9950 for 10 Notes
  • Treasury notes pay interest every six months in this case 16.25*10*0.5 = $81.25
  • The previous owner is entitled to their pro-rata share of the interest roughly $81.25 *4*(1/6)
  • So you paid something like $54.xx in accurred interest
  • At maturity you will receive $10k principle plus $81.25 coupon.
  • 81.25/10,000 * (12/2) = 0.04875 (i.e 4.875%)
Reply
Last edited by bmwkbiker March 2, 2023 at 03:30 PM.
Joined Aug 2015
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Pi.314
03-02-2023 at 02:29 PM.
03-02-2023 at 02:29 PM.
Quote from bmwkbiker :
Can't believe I'm taking the time to do this but I'll unwind it for you.
Back of the napkin calculation:
  • The ask was something like 99.5 or $9950 for 10 Notes
  • Treasury notes pay interest every six months in this case 16.25*10*0.5 = $81.25
  • The previous owner is entitled to their pro-rata share of the interest roughly $81.25 *4*(1/6)
  • So you paid something like $54.xx in accurred interst
  • At maturity you will receive $10k principle plus $81.25 coupon.
  • 81.25/10,000 * (12/2) = 0.04875 (i.e 4.875%)
thx.. 10k principle.. thats where i went wrong.

my (bad) calc:
$9950 * 1.625% * .5 = $81
9950 + 81 = 10032 - 10006 = $25 profit

so add $50 to 9950 for $75 profit makes more sense!
thx!!!
Reply
Last edited by Pi.314 March 2, 2023 at 02:33 PM.
Joined Aug 2018
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Cmdr_Gabe_E
03-03-2023 at 10:19 AM.
03-03-2023 at 10:19 AM.
Quote from TurtlePerson2 :
I just don't get this. It takes me a few seconds to buy T-Bills and people are acting like it's a hassle.

Maybe it's easy for me because I already have a brokerage account and have been trading stocks for decades, but I don't get what's so hard about T-Bills. Honestly, it's way more trouble to open a bank account/CD than it is to trade T-Bills if you already have a brokerage account.
Quote from Diz :
I'm in the same boat as both of you. T-Bills are ultimately not worth *my* time/effort and I'm concentrating on pouncing on the right CD + HYSA's that historically keep up with the Jones' when it comes to rates.
HI, @TurtlePerson2 and @Diz !!! First of all, congrats on the upcoming and early retirement! I'm trying to get there ASAP too, LOL!

Second, after some more reading, research and interactions in the last 24 hours, I've decided to do the t-bill ladder strategy as well BECAUSE of the really good t-bill rates right now. And it looks like the rates/yields are still going up, which is why (I think) it's good to not lock your money for too long just in case better rates/yields come up in the next several months Smilie!

I still have a lot of "grind" left in me, so I am willing to put in a bit more work to try to maximize my earnings.

Also, I agree that with the right tool/website, buying t-bills is easy. At first I thought it was intimidating too, but education and tutorials made me see the light. But you do need to keep track of when they go live on auction, watch current rates, etc etc. And I also dig that it is not state taxed Wink!
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Joined Jun 2008
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jay85
03-03-2023 at 01:55 PM.
03-03-2023 at 01:55 PM.
Fidelity also offer 12 month 5.25% CD
Reply
Joined Jul 2008
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Xellos2099
03-03-2023 at 03:04 PM.
03-03-2023 at 03:04 PM.
Quote from jay85 :
Fidelity also offer 12 month 5.25% CD
IIRC that 5.25 is chase right? it is good but there is state and local tax.
Reply
Joined Jan 2008
L5: Journeyman
> bubble2 734 Posts
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Diz
03-03-2023 at 06:35 PM.
03-03-2023 at 06:35 PM.
Quote from Cmdr_Gabe_E :
HI, @TurtlePerson2 and @Diz !!! First of all, congrats on the upcoming and early retirement! I'm trying to get there ASAP too, LOL!

Second, after some more reading, research and interactions in the last 24 hours, I've decided to do the t-bill ladder strategy as well BECAUSE of the really good t-bill rates right now. And it looks like the rates/yields are still going up, which is why (I think) it's good to not lock your money for too long just in case better rates/yields come up in the next several months Smilie!

I still have a lot of "grind" left in me, so I am willing to put in a bit more work to try to maximize my earnings.

Also, I agree that with the right tool/website, buying t-bills is easy. At first I thought it was intimidating too, but education and tutorials made me see the light. But you do need to keep track of when they go live on auction, watch current rates, etc etc. And I also dig that it is not state taxed Wink!
Keep grinding! I'd definitely look into laddering if I knew I'd have consistent time and internet service to follow, but I'll be traveling all over the place to many middle of nowhere locations starting Monday, and it's just not worth it for me at this time. But that's not to say it's not worth it for others!
Reply
Joined Dec 2007
L4: Apprentice
> bubble2 320 Posts
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Loopy07
03-05-2023 at 08:22 PM.
03-05-2023 at 08:22 PM.
Quote from TurtlePerson2 :
I just don't get this. It takes me a few seconds to buy T-Bills and people are acting like it's a hassle.

Maybe it's easy for me because I already have a brokerage account and have been trading stocks for decades, but I don't get what's so hard about T-Bills. Honestly, it's way more trouble to open a bank account/CD than it is to trade T-Bills if you already have a brokerage account.
Hi, I'm new with this T-Bills and was doing some reading on it. I created an account on TreasuryDirect and purchased 3 T-Bills (4-week, 8-week, and a 13-week) from TreasuryDirect last night. The process was pretty simple.

I already have a Fidelity account and just went through the exercise of buying a T-Bills on Fidelity to see if it's any easier than TreasuryDirect. I didn't see a 4-, 8, or 13-week T-Bills. I clicked on one with a maturity date of 6/27/2023 to try out. I guess this is a 3-month T-Bill. I clicked on Preview Order and it says "Your order can't be placed at this time. Fidelity does not accept orders for secondary offerings outside of normal trading hours....". It seems so much more work through Fidelity.

I just read a couple of posts about the 4- and 8-week T-Bills not available until Tuesday or Thursday on Fidelity.

My questions:
1) Do I get a better yield if buying T-Bills through Fidelity?
2) Any potential issues if buying from TreasuryDirect?
3) I placed the T-Bills orders from TreasuryDirect last night (Saturday night). The auction date for the 13-week T-Bill is tomorrow (3/6/2023). Do I actually need to do anything on the auction date?

Very much appreciate your help!!
Reply

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TurtlePerson2
03-06-2023 at 07:02 AM.
03-06-2023 at 07:02 AM.
Quote from Loopy07 :
Hi, I'm new with this T-Bills and was doing some reading on it. I created an account on TreasuryDirect and purchased 3 T-Bills (4-week, 8-week, and a 13-week) from TreasuryDirect last night. The process was pretty simple.

I already have a Fidelity account and just went through the exercise of buying a T-Bills on Fidelity to see if it's any easier than TreasuryDirect. I didn't see a 4-, 8, or 13-week T-Bills. I clicked on one with a maturity date of 6/27/2023 to try out. I guess this is a 3-month T-Bill. I clicked on Preview Order and it says "Your order can't be placed at this time. Fidelity does not accept orders for secondary offerings outside of normal trading hours....". It seems so much more work through Fidelity.

I just read a couple of posts about the 4- and 8-week T-Bills not available until Tuesday or Thursday on Fidelity.

My questions:
1) Do I get a better yield if buying T-Bills through Fidelity?
2) Any potential issues if buying from TreasuryDirect?
3) I placed the T-Bills orders from TreasuryDirect last night (Saturday night). The auction date for the 13-week T-Bill is tomorrow (3/6/2023). Do I actually need to do anything on the auction date?

Very much appreciate your help!!
1.) Do I get a better yield if buying T-Bills through Fidelity?
You'll get the same yield at auction. I don't know how secondary market treasuries work at TreasuryDirect. I saw something in one of their FAQs that you cannot sell/transfer treasuries for 45 days after buying, which indicates that there's at least some friction there.
2.) Any potential issues if buying from TreasuryDirect?
I don't know why anyone would want to use TreasuryDirect for T-bills. If you've already got a brokerage account, it's way easier to use that. I find TreasuryDirect pretty difficult to use compared to Fidelity, but I've never even tried to do secondary market T-bills on it.
3.) It should automatically handle the auction process for you. You'll see the T-bills added to your account in a day or so after the auction.


EDIT: Removed the XHLF stuff. As someone pointed out, it's really too illiquid to get a reasonable price.
Reply
Last edited by TurtlePerson2 March 6, 2023 at 07:05 PM.
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