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Hello, My Name is Mike. I Give A Thesis As to Why Steven Hawking Could Be Wrong.

Now don't get me wrong, I used to think Steven Hawking was the smartest person ever. As someone else that is smart (me), I watch Discovery and TLC a lot - minus Kate Plus Eight hehe.. Anyways, let's get down to what is bothering me.

I was thinking the other day of the entire basis of why the Big Bang Theory is the top suggested theory going right now in the science realm. Let's ignore religion and let's use what we know. For those unaware, the Big Bang is basically the theory that everything originated from a single point so small and so tiny that you couldn't even see it with your own eyes. Let's put this into your mind.

Now the Big Bang is used mostly because of the Doppler Effect. No I ain't talking weather. I'm talking color shift. Basically things that move very fast away from you create a redshift (red color behind them). Those that are coming toward you fast create a blueshift (blue in front of them). So what scientist have done is examine the universe and see all this redshift everywhere. They basically have concluded that everything is moving away from us.

My problem is the following:

1) The Doppler Effect doesn't take into account the source point of view. Who is to say the Earth isn't the one moving away fast? If you want to include our solar system, let's say the Sun and the 8 planets are the ones moving away from everything else.

2) If everything is moving so far away from each other at such fast speeds, why is Steven Hawking even suggesting that we attempt to travel to other solar systems thousands of light years away from us (speeds we can't even come close to). By the time we reach where they were when we left earth, they will no longer be there, right? They are moving so fast to create a redshift that we would never make the destination. The travel time would be infinite.

3) Let's say that it is just our solar system moving away from everything else. That would destroy the Big Bang theory completely and then do away with the idea that we all originated from one single point in space. It also destroys Steven Hawking's theory that before the Big Bang, there was no space.

If this is too complicated for you to understand, let me know and I can explain more.

DISCUSS nod

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Joined Mar 2009
Schrödinger's Frog
> bubble2 19,435 Posts
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Frogstar
08-11-2011 at 02:50 PM.
08-11-2011 at 02:50 PM.
Quote from IVIal :
I have no idea why anyone bothers posting these lengthy replies to OP, he completely ignores any sort of logic and reason, and just continues believing in his own psychotic delusions.
He said he wouldn't insult anyone on the site, but he never said he'd show the same courtesy to our intelligence.
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Joined Jan 2007
The Mistress of All Evil!
> bubble2 22,510 Posts
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Maleficent
08-11-2011 at 02:54 PM.
08-11-2011 at 02:54 PM.
Quote from Frogstar :
He said he wouldn't insult anyone on the site, but he never said he'd show the same courtesy to our intelligence.
laugh out loud True.
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Joined Feb 2005
L6: Expert
> bubble2 1,446 Posts
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Putz1103
08-11-2011 at 02:56 PM.
08-11-2011 at 02:56 PM.
Quote from mikecart1 :
Ok, we got someone making an attempt to take me reasonably. What you are saying though is that the frisbee (solar system, planet, or sun) you are trying to reach is coming back. I'm saying it can turn curve or whatever in its own solar system or galaxy and yet that entire galaxy can be moving away from you at astronomical speeds. You can chase and chase and predict all you want but it isn't coming back. It is like chasing a car on a highway when you got your feet and you are following a Ferrari. The Ferrari's absolute direction in the (X,Y,Z) plane is still a positive, a far bigger positive than you can ever create despite how close you get to either the X, Y, or Z coordinates. Your total velocity will never come close and the Ferrari will keep getting farther and farther away.
So why can't we catch this other planet/solar system/galaxy? Is it traveling faster than our absolute limit of speed (the speed of light)? No. Is it accelerating? No (well if you want to nitpick it could possibly be accelerating due to a large mass's gravitational pull, but in that scenerio it would pass the object accelerating it and the start accelerating in the opposit direction). So if we accelerate continually why can we not exceed the speed of this object we are trying to find. Even though that ferrari is speeding way ahead of you it's going a constant speed, and with no friction to slow you down and inertia keeping you moving, even the person on his feet would be able to reach that speed and exceed it (asuming your walking has the same reaction to the environment as a rocket's exhaust).

Now you could throw in there that you can only go as fast as the mass you are shooting in the opposite direction... Then use an ion drive as propulsion as they can accelerate particles much faster than rockets can.

The physics is there, we just need to find a way to use it better in order to make space travel more likely. Oh, and the dopplar effect can be seen in small velocities as well, it's not like we can only tell when the hydrogen emission spectrum is only in the red/blue spectrums of light...

Keep watching TLC...
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Joined Oct 2005
...---...
> bubble2 901 Posts
Mad Scientist
08-11-2011 at 04:05 PM.
08-11-2011 at 04:05 PM.
The problem with the big bang theory (not the tv show) is, the premise states 'everything came from nothing', there was a bang and then matter formed. Matter formed from what? IMO, it takes a greater amount of faith to believe a 'big bang' theory, then it does to believe in a creator.
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Joined Jan 2010
Hello, My Name is Mike!
> bubble2 1,642 Posts
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MikeBear
08-11-2011 at 04:23 PM.
08-11-2011 at 04:23 PM.
Quote from Mad Scientist :
The problem with the big bang theory (not the tv show) is, the premise states 'everything came from nothing', there was a bang and then matter formed. Matter formed from what? IMO, it takes a greater amount of faith to believe a 'big bang' theory, then it does to believe in a creator.

Huh, that sounds familiar... Confused Turtle

Oh yeah, somebody said it already in posting 23.
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Joined Oct 2005
...---...
> bubble2 901 Posts
Mad Scientist
08-11-2011 at 04:34 PM.
08-11-2011 at 04:34 PM.
Quote from MikeBear :
Huh, that sounds familiar... Confused Turtle

Oh yeah, somebody said it already in posting 23.

Oops! Embarrassment Sorry chief. I don't always read an entire thread and this was one of those times.


However, great minds do think alike!
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Joined Jan 2010
Hello, My Name is Mike!
> bubble2 1,642 Posts
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MikeBear
08-11-2011 at 04:39 PM.
08-11-2011 at 04:39 PM.
Quote from Mad Scientist :
Oops! Embarrassment Sorry chief. I don't always read an entire thread and this was one of those times.

However, great minds do think alike!

So, you are saying you gloss over his threads, sort of the way mikecart1 glosses over real science? Stick Out Tongue
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Joined Oct 2005
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> bubble2 901 Posts
Mad Scientist
08-11-2011 at 04:41 PM.
08-11-2011 at 04:41 PM.
Quote from MikeBear :
So, you are saying you gloss over his threads, sort of the way mikecart1 glosses over real science? Stick Out Tongue

Yes. Embarrassment
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Joined Apr 2004
Mr llama llama
> bubble2 3,048 Posts
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The Llama
08-11-2011 at 04:54 PM.
08-11-2011 at 04:54 PM.
Quote from Mad Scientist :
The problem with the big bang theory (not the tv show) is, the premise states 'everything came from nothing', there was a bang and then matter formed. Matter formed from what? IMO, it takes a greater amount of faith to believe a 'big bang' theory, then it does to believe in a creator.
That's an over simplification that doesn't take a lot of what is actually known into account. But to make it easier we can side step that issue all together; in human history there has always been a need to understand things, and that which we couldn't understand we attributed to magic, or some sort of god/ prime mover. However, in all of human history science has time and again show that these things can not only be explained, but reproduced.
However, not once has there even been a shred of proof towards the existence of this prime mover. So I would say that it takes a hell of a lot less faith to make a leap based on known scientific facts working backward towards something like the Big Bang than it does on an entire human history of making things up.

The smarter move, in my opinion, is to believe in the TV show. We can all get behind that.
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Last edited by The Llama August 11, 2011 at 04:54 PM.
Joined Oct 2005
...---...
> bubble2 901 Posts
Mad Scientist
08-11-2011 at 05:47 PM.
08-11-2011 at 05:47 PM.
Quote from The Llama :
That's an over simplification that doesn't take a lot of what is actually known into account. But to make it easier we can side step that issue all together; in human history there has always been a need to understand things, and that which we couldn't understand we attributed to magic, or some sort of god/ prime mover. However, in all of human history science has time and again show that these things can not only be explained, but reproduced.
However, not once has there even been a shred of proof towards the existence of this prime mover. So I would say that it takes a hell of a lot less faith to make a leap based on known scientific facts working backward towards something like the Big Bang than it does on an entire human history of making things up.

The smarter move, in my opinion, is to believe in the TV show. We can all get behind that.
Yet those who don't want to be held accountable for their indiscretions, would rather believe in a magical pop in the sky, instead of a creator that will hold them accountable for their actions.

Now if you want to talk about proof, perhaps you can show everyone how you or anyone else, can make dirt, rock or some type of gas, out of nothingness? And when I say nothingness, I mean nothing, no gas, no spark, no matter, no anti-matter, etc. When you can get back to me, okay?
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Joined Apr 2004
Mr llama llama
> bubble2 3,048 Posts
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The Llama
08-11-2011 at 06:21 PM.
08-11-2011 at 06:21 PM.
Quote from Mad Scientist :
Yet those who don't want to be held accountable for their indiscretions, would rather believe in a magical pop in the sky, instead of a creator that will hold them accountable for their actions.

Now if you want to talk about proof, perhaps you can show everyone how you or anyone else, can make dirt, rock or some type of gas, out of nothingness? And when I say nothingness, I mean nothing, no gas, no spark, no matter, no anti-matter, etc. When you can get back to me, okay?
So, people believe in scientific fact and theory because they don't want to be held accountable for their actions? So if I'm, say, a thief then I'll believe in the Magical Pop so I don't have to feel bad for my indiscretions? That is a very interesting take on life. Stephen Hawking must be just below Pol Pot!

As to your second question, I can get back to you right now! Nowhere that I have read does it say that a human being created the big bang. So neither me, nor anyone else, can make all of that from nothing. Nice job, you proved that the big bang wasn't put into motion by a human!


And, if you want to talk from a religious standpoint, isn't that exactly what god did in the old testament? Or do you not believe in any judeo-christian religion because according to you, it's impossible for me or anyone else to create any of that from nothing.

I still say the TV show is the way to go. It'd be much more harmonious.
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Joined Jan 2010
Hello, My Name is Mike!
> bubble2 1,642 Posts
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MikeBear
08-11-2011 at 06:33 PM.
08-11-2011 at 06:33 PM.
Quote from The Llama :
So, people believe in scientific fact and theory because they don't want to be held accountable for their actions? So if I'm, say, a thief then I'll believe in the Magical Pop so I don't have to feel bad for my indiscretions? That is a very interesting take on life. Stephen Hawking must be just below Pol Pot!

As to your second question, I can get back to you right now! Nowhere that I have read does it say that a human being created the big bang. So neither me, nor anyone else, can make all of that from nothing. Nice job, you proved that the big bang wasn't put into motion by a human!


And, if you want to talk from a religious standpoint, isn't that exactly what god did in the old testament? Or do you not believe in any judeo-christian religion because according to you, it's impossible for me or anyone else to create any of that from nothing.

I still say the TV show is the way to go. It'd be much more harmonious.

Was the tv show created from nothing? Confused
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Joined Apr 2004
Mr llama llama
> bubble2 3,048 Posts
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The Llama
08-11-2011 at 06:34 PM.
08-11-2011 at 06:34 PM.
Quote from MikeBear :
Was the tv show created from nothing? Confused
In a way.
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Joined Jan 2004
Here's to the future
> bubble2 25,141 Posts
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Iaaaiws
08-11-2011 at 07:01 PM.
08-11-2011 at 07:01 PM.
Quote from Mad Scientist :
Yet those who don't want to be held accountable for their indiscretions, would rather believe in a magical pop in the sky, instead of a creator that will hold them accountable for their actions.

Now if you want to talk about proof, perhaps you can show everyone how you or anyone else, can make dirt, rock or some type of gas, out of nothingness? And when I say nothingness, I mean nothing, no gas, no spark, no matter, no anti-matter, etc. When you can get back to me, okay?
Reply

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Joined Mar 2009
Schrödinger's Frog
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Frogstar
08-11-2011 at 07:09 PM.
08-11-2011 at 07:09 PM.
Will someone just invoke Godwin's Law so we can end this mess?
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