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R U an ultracrepidarian?
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Only read if you are NOT religious and/or do not believe in any 'supreme' being (othe
December 2, 2007 at
08:48 PM
in
Question
personal attacks will not be tolerated and will be mod alerted, if you wish to set someone apart use generalities, such as specific religion not speific person on SD for example
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you dont get the right to feel insulted, u have been warned...
so, peeps, if you dont believe in god, do you feel that ones that do are delusional?
a lot of people will sight karma or other things as 'he got what he had coming' but i argue that it's all a mathematical randomness that on a small scale might seem like karma
perfect example is: when you play poker and u push with the best hand, a LOT of times, you can predict/be so sure that the card will come that will beat you even if the chance of it coming is less than 1:6. when the card comes, some might argue it as karma, but i argue that its all random, just on a small scale randomness doesn't work
discuss....
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you dont get the right to feel insulted, u have been warned...
so, peeps, if you dont believe in god, do you feel that ones that do are delusional?
a lot of people will sight karma or other things as 'he got what he had coming' but i argue that it's all a mathematical randomness that on a small scale might seem like karma
perfect example is: when you play poker and u push with the best hand, a LOT of times, you can predict/be so sure that the card will come that will beat you even if the chance of it coming is less than 1:6. when the card comes, some might argue it as karma, but i argue that its all random, just on a small scale randomness doesn't work
discuss....
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December 6, 2007
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They use big words over there. I'm not going!
I do have one thing to say to Mav though -- you (well me too...) are asking for proof that god exists, a picture would be good enough. I was thinking about this last night. Do we have proof that santa does NOT exist? I can show you a picture of Santa, but that will not prove that he exists. I can have someone throw presents down a chimney, and you'll just say that "o that was staged", etc. etc.
I think it's along the same lines of proof, something that us agnostics/atheists/non-believers will never get....
To BrgnHntr, about my "pattern" that I was seeing, I'm not talking about any one specific religion. I have friends of all faiths (well maybe not all, but you get the point). It was just a generalization (but I guess, like I said, I see it maybe because I'm looking to see it).
I'll probably have more comments, i just need to catch up on the last 20 posts or so.
Adding politics into a religious debate will send this thread straight to hell.
I'll meet you all in the podium.
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The people here are, for the most part, well acquainted with each other and know things about each other, and each others' lives... beyond the stark issue positions that people take in the podium. The distinction is important. People who post in the podium exclusively become the issues they defend or advance. People in the podium are reduced to ideas and issue positions. And they most certainly are not friends. There is a human element that is absent from the podium... friendship. This reductionism often results in the people of the podium forgetting that their fellow participants are humans.
Now, here in the Lounge we see people who like to talk to each other about all manner of things participating in an attempt to resolve or at least gain genuine understanding of the opinions, motivations, and experiences of others. This is what as known as a 'conversation'... and a conversation is very different from a debate. A conversation sifts opinion in a search for the truth... it is a cooperative effort, with a goal shared by both participants.
As you know, I spend most of my time in the podium... but I come into the lounge for things like this, b/c it's heartening to see such a lengthy display of moderate behavior.
Life has a dimension that does not translate to onto paper. And may not be able to subjected to accurate measurement. There is the 'experienced' dimension. Life as we live and feel it.
That said... if god does exist... he likely has the power to give you the kind of first person experience that would get you off of the fence.
Life has a dimension that does not translate to onto paper. And may not be able to subjected to accurate measurement. There is the 'experienced' dimension. Life as we live and feel it.
That said... if god does exist... he likely has the power to give you the kind of first person experience that would get you off of the fence.
Luke 11:29As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.
John 2:18Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?" 19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
John 6:36 (Jesus says)But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
1 Corinthians 1:21-23 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
Romans 1:20-For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitieshis eternal power and divine naturehave been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
You're using god as a way to make yourself a better person.
You use god to keep you sane during the times when you don't know where else to turn.
You're using god to answer the questions that you have no answer for.
You're using god to believe in something, to make yourself feel whole.
IMO you're using god for personal gain. (nothing wrong with that, if it makes you feel better about yourself and makes you a better person).
As outsiders we might be able to look at the "christian mindset" and discover all these uses... all these things that it obviously 'does' for people. And we can engage in a bit of scientific reductionism... we can reduce the experience of the Christian faith to "people use it for X, Y, or Z."
Now, when we talk to people about this and say "you use it for this or that" they will react with some degree of offense.... as we have trivialized their experience and attempted to reduce it to these pragmatic or 'useful' elements. Our reaction to their reaction is often "Well, they just don't understand why they do it... but I can see what utility they get out of it, so I know better."
Much of modern education encourages this habit of mind. We beleive that we can understand people or authors better than they understand themselves. Our education often encourages us to label and dismiss older authors (or modern ones) as sexist, for example. But in order to gain actual understanding, we must attempt to understand others as they understand themselves. This is not as easy as the reductionist shortcut.
As i mentioned in a post a moment ago, life has an experienced deminsion that is not easily accounted for by science, psychology, or mathematics... all of these very noble methods we employ to gain understanding over the world have a reductionist quality about them. The man becomes a number... his life and his experiences are counted and we hope we counted them all... we hope we gave proper weight to the right experiences and didn't overlook the trivial but important ones... then we presume to have the ability to diagnose him. We rest easy knowing that the world of measured human lives is an accurate representation of life as it is actually lived...
Now, I am going to shop
You're welcome, I'm always happy to share how I feel about anything!
As for the bible contradicting itself, it does it a whole different level than "I am hot" and "I am cold". It contradicts on some much bigger issues. I wish I could remember exactly what those were. But, I was in those religion classes almost 10 years ago. It was enough to ruffle the feathers of the professor (who was also a minister or something).
I didn't intend that the Bible's contradictions are that simple, it was just a generalized example. I can understand the Professor's fluster...they're not simple answers that he likely had ready at the tip of his tongue - especially if asked in the middle of a class. I'd love to hear if you remember. I've had some similar conversations in my Bible study group and we've yet to find one that there isn't a logical explanation for.
Life has a dimension that does not translate to onto paper. And may not be able to subjected to accurate measurement. There is the 'experienced' dimension. Life as we live and feel it.
That said... if god does exist... he likely has the power to give you the kind of first person experience that would get you off of the fence.
Changing subjects...my mom had an experience today that I wouldn't call a miracle...but definately a guide from God. She had her watch in the car with her today as she left a Habitat for Humanity event and was on her way to Westroads mall in Omaha, to have her watch repaired in Von Maur's. She had two separate events...first she had this strong sense that there was a meeting she forgot about and she turned the car to drive that way but was really battling that she didn't logically think she did and she made a phone call and found out she didn't...turned around and headed back toward the mall. Then she got a strong sense that she should go on and run her second errand first...at the last second and going to the mall first had been her plan all day. She went with this one. If she hadn't she would have been right there when the shooter arrived.
I believe it was God. I don't know why he didn't give a similar sense to the people who got shot...or maybe he did and they didn't hear or didn't listen. I don't know... It's so scary - so sad. She says in a town the size of Omaha it's going to affect almost everyone, that they will at least know someone who knew one of the victims.
You're welcome, I'm always happy to share how I feel about anything!
Much of history as we know it has no proof other than passed down word (written or not). It's not just religion. I know you can't see, hear or touch God and I can't do those things per se either...but I feel like I have a sixth sense of sorts which makes God very palpable to me.
I didn't intend that the Bible's contradictions are that simple, it was just a generalized example. I can understand the Professor's fluster...they're not simple answers that he likely had ready at the tip of his tongue - especially if asked in the middle of a class. I'd love to hear if you remember. I've had some similar conversations in my Bible study group and we've yet to find one that there isn't a logical explanation for.
I don't know if it's a choice to feel gay or not. For all I know they are born that way. My belief is that we are all born with challenges that we have to overcome. Some people are born as kleptomaniacs, but that doesn't make it okay to steal. It's an urge that they have to learn to overcome. Homosexuality is different in that it doesn't infringe upon the rights of another so people should have the right to live that way. However, if I had been born that way, I believe that I should not have acted upon it. Some people choose not to cuss, they believe it's wrong. That doesn't mean that you can't nor would most be offended by them saying they believe it's wrong. It's their belief and their choice.
I believe that the intention of the separation of church and state is misunderstood. The pilgrims left England where the king ran the church. He changed doctine based upon his whims and did not allow religious freedom. They left to obtain that religious freedom and created the separation of church and state to prevent the same thing from happening - the government controlling the church. At the time, the church was very involved in government in Europe. I don't believe it ever crossed their minds that this would be used to keep religion out of government.
I completely agree with the italic portion. Very well said. The bold section, I agree God has that power, but has reason for not doing so and has said he wont.
Changing subjects...my mom had an experience today that I wouldn't call a miracle...but definately a guide from God. She had her watch in the car with her today as she left a Habitat for Humanity event and was on her way to Westroads mall in Omaha, to have her watch repaired in Von Maur's. She had two separate events...first she had this strong sense that there was a meeting she forgot about and she turned the car to drive that way but was really battling that she didn't logically think she did and she made a phone call and found out she didn't...turned around and headed back toward the mall. Then she got a strong sense that she should go on and run her second errand first...at the last second and going to the mall first had been her plan all day. She went with this one. If she hadn't she would have been right there when the shooter arrived.
I believe it was God. I don't know why he didn't give a similar sense to the people who got shot...or maybe he did and they didn't hear or didn't listen. I don't know... It's so scary - so sad. She says in a town the size of Omaha it's going to affect almost everyone, that they will at least know someone who knew one of the victims.
No one would have been able to use even simple intuition to know that the shooter would be at the mall.
I am so glad that she is safe.
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So for those of you interested you can google it I guess, I don't remember the author