expirediconian | Staff posted Dec 13, 2024 08:37 PM
Item 1 of 3
Item 1 of 3
expirediconian | Staff posted Dec 13, 2024 08:37 PM
Integra DRX 3.4 100W 9.2-Channel 8K Network AV Receiver
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I finally got the 3.4 set up. For context I'm coming from an Onkyo TR-NX 818. It had 130 watts per channel vs this at 100. My first day setting it up and playing around with it I was underwhelmed. I purchased the Klipsch RP 1200SW at the same time to pair with my KSW 15. I've had my KSW 15 for over 24 years and it has served me very well. Switching to a two subwoofer system has been amazing. At first that was the only thing that had impressed me. I was really second guessing the purchase of the Integra.
This morning I got up early, moved some furniture around, and played with the sub woofer placement. Then I ran Dirac for the first time. I did the full placement testing with the supplied mic. WOW … everything came alive. I can't wait to try Dirac with my laptop, then I'm going to buy the minidsp UMIK-1 mic.
I wasn't expecting to be wowed this much, especially coming from an Audyssey XT32 set up on my old TX-NR 818. I know it will progressively get better redoing it with the laptop, than the new minidsp mic. The bass has really tightened up. Original I didn't have both subs parallel from each other, so that helped also, at least with some standing waves. I don't feel the need to invest in an Emotiva Basx A3, or an Outlaw amp anymore. I probably will once I upgrade to 5.2.4, but for now I'm set and satisfied.
There is no reciever at this price with 9 channels, pre outs, HDMI 2.1 on all ports, and Dirac built in. Also higher grade components compared to similar Onkyo and Pioneer models.
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1) User can't tell the difference
2) User is getting help from external amps and using the DRX 3.4 as a prepro. Very popular combo for this AVR!
I'll go with the obvious!
He did all the reading, set it up,listened & found out those benchmarks/measurements didn't apply and sounded amazing!
A bench test is a measurement of what something is capable of, it does not measure what it sounds like.
That's the fallacy & the uniqueness/mystery of sound, it's not measurable especially universally imo.
Your colorful second paragraph touches on just a few of the reasons.
In basic terms which you alluded to, from that bench test to the point you actually listen to it, MANY things affect what it sounds like.
So that measurement of capability, in the end loses pretty much any proof of fidelity to anyone imo.
Even you pointed out how science has tried to crack this mystery with blind test and it's never 100% results, given in averages.
Keep in mind what those blind test don't take into consideration is the worth of that difference, making it exponentially much more complicated imo.
This also begs the question.
If these bench test have so much value to defining high fidelity why audition or as you always talk about "tailoring the sound to your taste and for enjoyment"(ie EQing,PEQ)?
While I feel my post that you quoted already has the needed information in it, what follows is long and I don't have time to clean it up so it is long winded but it is something that may have info that will resonate for some buyers, certainly not everyone.
For high fidelity audio playback and as well for great 'subjective' sound playback, I do not audition audio electronics and I don't think very many buyers should, I only buy audio electronics that have been measured and meet my minimum objectively measured requirements (and price points). These measurements can guarantee the electronics do not change the sound audibly. Audio electronics (not loudspeakers, electronics only) that measure well do not sound meaningfully different from one another. This has been blind tested but even had it not, think about it, how could they? If electronics reproduce content without changing the sound above human hearing thresholds they will sound the same.
There are feature differences and differences such a power output, so in a small space a 10 or 25watt amp may more than suffice and in a large living space where I rock out it could be a 500watt/channel amp. Also some stuff looks cool and that is a factor since it gets looked at often.
That fact that speakers and sound interactions in a room are hard to parse out is not a parallel to what is happening while the signal is in the electrical domain, while electrical it is easy to measure very accurately with total confidence and therefore easy to tell if it has high fidelity.
Remember electronics have no sound waves bouncing around in them and are very well contained systems. Electrical signals have a very specific properties that can be measured very easily now and very completely. This ease of accuracy exists from source to the speaker wires. (So, before the electrical signal is translated or transduced into physical modulations of air by speakers in a room. The speakers and room interactions are the wild card).
While the signal is electric it can be measured with such a level of precision it boggles the mind and any changes made to the signal can be noticed easily and accurately by testing equipment. Modern measurement equipment and methods can tell if an electrical signal has been altered down to extreme micro detail and by how much.
Comprehensive bench testing demonstrates how much deviation there is from ideal preservation of the signal.
Electrically, if a signal loses 2db of bass output going from the source to the amplifier speaker level outputs you don't need to listen to know for a fact that you lost 2db of bass from the original content. You don't need to listen for that for objective truth but now what if someone subjectively likes less bass and how would they find out that they like a bit less bass in the 1st place? What if their speakers have 2db extra bass right there and wala synergy of net neutrality? What if a certain recording was made overly bass heavy and sounds better on thinner amplification? What if someone loves their favorite song on just about anything? Will people have a frame of refence for this frequency response error and therefore a way to even notice or care?
Same thing in the next example what if a component adds 2% Harmonic distortion across the whole audible band vs another that adds less than 0.001% across the whole audible band? Well we know for a fact how much distortion is present in both examples but is either audible and if so how audible and is it even a bad thing? As in does the added 2% distortion actually sound 'better', more real, euphonic, excitingly edgy or similar? Is it even or odd order harmonic distortion?
Should we audition? How many electrical level components should we 'audition' to determine which one has the perfect combo for some guy named John who found synergy with his old JBL L100s with one slightly rotten surround and an amp with a magic 5% HD at 2000hrz, 10%Hd in the bass to warm it up and thicken it, a 1db treble lift, -5db less bass at 25hrz so paintings on the wall rattle less and a left channel that is bleeding into the right but somehow sounds trippy and magical and abstractly 3.5d especially after 3 or 4 hard drinks and a pizza while playing his favorite album that has 2 tracks accidentally recorded in mono and one where midway through the L track was accidentally cut by 5db in the midrange? (Keep in mind he danced to these tracks twice on his wedding night in a blue tux and his newly recovered foam speaker grills are almost the same blue color.) There is no end to the possible subjective variation, source recording issues and biasing potential on a given night. There has to be some way to simplify this all meaningfully and yes choosing at what point to do this and how is actually subjective, objectivity is always at the mercy of subjectivity.
So, objective measurements of audio electronics do not eradicate subjectivity nor dictate whether or not you will be enjoying yourself. Bad measurements do not mean that you won't enjoy a great song on a crappy mini Bluetooth speaker or your MacBook speakers. They don't guarantee you will notice that this Integra amp has some current draw issues at high SPL as pointed out by @ shaddai
Measurements/benchmarks of audio electronics do absolutely guarantee whether you do or do not have added harmonic distortion or accurate frequency response or a noisy signal or issues with a power supply handling high current draw. That is a fact.
Based on the above, in my view, the idea of 'auditioning' electronics for subjective sound quality is essentially a straw man argument in 2024. You might need to test them at their limits to see if they crap out such an AVR that shuts down driving speakers loudly that regularly dip to 2ohms. Since all modern audio electronics and electrical audio wiring and can currently be measured/benchmarked extremely accurately & additionally modern audio electronics gear and electrical wiring can be made at a very reasonable price to have a baseline that is extremely neutral to the source (High Fidelity) beyond all known human perceptional ability. They can be made to NOT be one of the many things that 'affect' what you hear unless you want them to by making an adjustment by choice, such as dialing in more bass. This has been studied by companies and researchers who care add nauseum. It is not up for debate unless you want to for some sort of personal enjoyment. In my view doing this is similar to sitting around debating whether an iPhone or Rolex keeps time subjectively more accurately? Objectively, a $30k Rolex does not keep time accurately compared to an iPhone that uses GPS and atomic clocks, even a Quartz movement Timex is far better than a mechanical watch. Someone buys a Rolex at great expense for a reason subjectively far different from actually being an extremely accurate time piece but I don't see the point in 'auditioning' one for accuracy, I mean you wind the darn thing up! (Now if you are worried about a catastrophe, then having a wind up watch around is a great idea and it may again be the most accurate way to tell time next to the sun dial or maybe a Rolex gives you some sense of pride and a good feeling, no shame there.) In my view why go around auditioning various poorly bench testing electrical equipment trying to figure out if you prefer 3% added distortion over a clean signal. Buy clean electronics that fit your price point and bench test well, fits the needs of you particular set-up such as enough available power, have the features you need such as Dirac or discrete subwoofer control or tone controls, have a decent reputation for durability and factor in looks as these are often furniture and decoration in living spaces and items many take pride in owning and looking at.
It is fine to drop $10k on a new Mcintosh monoblock amp, but don't do that because it actually sounded better than a Hypex. They both sounded essentially the same. They don't look the same and one needs a forklift but they both measure similarly objectively well so you do not need to audition, there is no cork to sniff here. Likewise in my humble view there are products one simply should not buy as they do not measure well and change the signal to much to be considered even if it isn't subjectively audible as some of these are also very expensive items.
So, no I personally do not audition audio electronics, I only buy audio electronics based on measured performance. I even buy stuff that measures so so sometimes but I know why I am doing it, $50 and going in garage for example. I do audition speakers in my space and I do adjust the sound based on taste with tone controls and PEQ and DSP and audition the changes I have made, along with measurements I make of them. Yah there is some cork sniffing going on when I do all of that. That is where I hobby it up. It is not the only way, these are all choices based on numerous other choices.
It makes no sense for me to recommend stuff to people where there's a high probability it's not going to end well. Home audio is as much a dark art now as it was back when I was selling these things!
Even just in this single thread "high probability" not going well isn't true.
The irony, the one passing judgement and believes his recommendation is somehow more valuable has no personal experience with this product!
While I feel my post that you quoted already has the needed information in it, what follows is long and I don't have time to clean it up so it is long winded but it is something that may have info that will resonate for some buyers, certainly not everyone.
For high fidelity audio playback and as well for great 'subjective' sound playback, I do not audition audio electronics and I don't think very many buyers should, I only buy audio electronics that have been measured and meet my minimum objectively measured requirements (and price points). These measurements can guarantee the electronics do not change the sound audibly. Audio electronics (not loudspeakers, electronics only) that measure well do not sound meaningfully different from one another. This has been blind tested but even had it not, think about it, how could they? If electronics reproduce content without changing the sound above human hearing thresholds they will sound the same.
There are feature differences and differences such a power output, so in a small space a 10 or 25watt amp may more than suffice and in a large living space where I rock out it could be a 500watt/channel amp. Also some stuff looks cool and that is a factor since it gets looked at often.
That fact that speakers and sound interactions in a room are hard to parse out is not a parallel to what is happening while the signal is in the electrical domain, while electrical it is easy to measure very accurately with total confidence and therefore easy to tell if it has high fidelity.
Remember electronics have no sound waves bouncing around in them and are very well contained systems. Electrical signals have a very specific properties that can be measured very easily now and very completely. This ease of accuracy exists from source to the speaker wires. (So, before the electrical signal is translated or transduced into physical modulations of air by speakers in a room. The speakers and room interactions are the wild card).
While the signal is electric it can be measured with such a level of precision it boggles the mind and any changes made to the signal can be noticed easily and accurately by testing equipment. Modern measurement equipment and methods can tell if an electrical signal has been altered down to extreme micro detail and by how much.
Comprehensive bench testing demonstrates how much deviation there is from ideal preservation of the signal.
Electrically, if a signal loses 2db of bass output going from the source to the amplifier speaker level outputs you don't need to listen to know for a fact that you lost 2db of bass from the original content. You don't need to listen for that for objective truth but now what if someone subjectively likes less bass and how would they find out that they like a bit less bass in the 1st place? What if their speakers have 2db extra bass right there and wala synergy of net neutrality? What if a certain recording was made overly bass heavy and sounds better on thinner amplification? What if someone loves their favorite song on just about anything? Will people have a frame of refence for this frequency response error and therefore a way to even notice or care?
Same thing in the next example what if a component adds 2% Harmonic distortion across the whole audible band vs another that adds less than 0.001% across the whole audible band? Well we know for a fact how much distortion is present in both examples but is either audible and if so how audible and is it even a bad thing? As in does the added 2% distortion actually sound 'better', more real, euphonic, excitingly edgy or similar? Is it even or odd order harmonic distortion?
Should we audition? How many electrical level components should we 'audition' to determine which one has the perfect combo for some guy named John who found synergy with his old JBL L100s with one slightly rotten surround and an amp with a magic 5% HD at 2000hrz, 10%Hd in the bass to warm it up and thicken it, a 1db treble lift, -5db less bass at 25hrz so paintings on the wall rattle less and a left channel that is bleeding into the right but somehow sounds trippy and magical and abstractly 3.5d especially after 3 or 4 hard drinks and a pizza while playing his favorite album that has 2 tracks accidentally recorded in mono and one where midway through the L track was accidentally cut by 5db in the midrange? (Keep in mind he danced to these tracks twice on his wedding night in a blue tux and his newly recovered foam speaker grills are almost the same blue color.) There is no end to the possible subjective variation, source recording issues and biasing potential on a given night. There has to be some way to simplify this all meaningfully and yes choosing at what point to do this and how is actually subjective, objectivity is always at the mercy of subjectivity.
So, objective measurements of audio electronics do not eradicate subjectivity nor dictate whether or not you will be enjoying yourself. Bad measurements do not mean that you won't enjoy a great song on a crappy mini Bluetooth speaker or your MacBook speakers. They don't guarantee you will notice that this Integra amp has some current draw issues at high SPL as pointed out by @ shaddai
Measurements/benchmarks of audio electronics do absolutely guarantee whether you do or do not have added harmonic distortion or accurate frequency response or a noisy signal or issues with a power supply handling high current draw. That is a fact.
Based on the above, in my view, the idea of 'auditioning' electronics for subjective sound quality is essentially a straw man argument in 2024. You might need to test them at their limits to see if they crap out such an AVR that shuts down driving speakers loudly that regularly dip to 2ohms. Since all modern audio electronics and electrical audio wiring and can currently be measured/benchmarked extremely accurately & additionally modern audio electronics gear and electrical wiring can be made at a very reasonable price to have a baseline that is extremely neutral to the source (High Fidelity) beyond all known human perceptional ability. They can be made to NOT be one of the many things that 'affect' what you hear unless you want them to by making an adjustment by choice, such as dialing in more bass. This has been studied by companies and researchers who care add nauseum. It is not up for debate unless you want to for some sort of personal enjoyment. In my view doing this is similar to sitting around debating whether an iPhone or Rolex keeps time subjectively more accurately? Objectively, a $30k Rolex does not keep time accurately compared to an iPhone that uses GPS and atomic clocks, even a Quartz movement Timex is far better than a mechanical watch. Someone buys a Rolex at great expense for a reason subjectively far different from actually being an extremely accurate time piece but I don't see the point in 'auditioning' one for accuracy, I mean you wind the darn thing up! (Now if you are worried about a catastrophe, then having a wind up watch around is a great idea and it may again be the most accurate way to tell time next to the sun dial or maybe a Rolex gives you some sense of pride and a good feeling, no shame there.) In my view why go around auditioning various poorly bench testing electrical equipment trying to figure out if you prefer 3% added distortion over a clean signal. Buy clean electronics that fit your price point and bench test well, fits the needs of you particular set-up such as enough available power, have the features you need such as Dirac or discrete subwoofer control or tone controls, have a decent reputation for durability and factor in looks as these are often furniture and decoration in living spaces and items many take pride in owning and looking at.
It is fine to drop $10k on a new Mcintosh monoblock amp, but don't do that because it actually sounded better than a Hypex. They both sounded essentially the same. They don't look the same and one needs a forklift but they both measure similarly objectively well so you do not need to audition, there is no cork to sniff here. Likewise in my humble view there are products one simply should not buy as they do not measure well and change the signal to much to be considered even if it isn't subjectively audible as some of these are also very expensive items.
So, no I personally do not audition audio electronics, I only buy audio electronics based on measured performance. I even buy stuff that measures so so sometimes but I know why I am doing it, $50 and going in garage for example. I do audition speakers in my space and I do adjust the sound based on taste with tone controls and PEQ and DSP and audition the changes I have made, along with measurements I make of them. Yah there is some cork sniffing going on when I do all of that. That is where I hobby it up. It is not the only way, these are all choices based on numerous other choices.
So I ask again after that colorful thesis!
If measurements tells you it's "high fidelity", why do have to "adjust the sound based on taste with tone controls and PEQ and DSP"?
The point is, you want to buy equipment that gives you the greatest transparency possible for your sources. Needing to raise the volume such that you get 1% THD on a DRX 3.4 because there are many passages in the 200-300 Hz range that approaches 2 ohms on your speakers doesn't qualify as transparent! You can't fix or EQ "transparency" into being (since you never received it from the source)! Do you understand now?
1) Transparency first and foremost
2) Adjust w/RC and EQ to taste
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Even just in this single thread "high probability" not going well isn't true.
The irony, the one passing judgement and believes his recommendation is somehow more valuable has no personal experience with this product!
So I ask again after that colorful thesis!
If measurements tells you it's "high fidelity", why do have to "adjust the sound based on taste with tone controls and PEQ and DSP"?
High fidelity means true to the source, not good sounding.
I have nothing against adjusting to taste. But I don't appreciate manufactures pawing off poor performers for the same price as superbly engineered competitors nor do I appreciate all the vastly overpriced 'luxury' hifi trying to pass itself off as ever increasing performance and fidelity. Many audio elements reached fully sonic maturity decades ago and cannot be audibly improved in any way again ever. Since the best objectively measuring $100 DAC is already neutral beyond all ability for people to ever hear it is therefore audibly indistinguishable from the best objectively measuring $20,000 DAC. Any difference between DACs at this point is either made up by various biasing or due to a flaw that is intentional and makes one sound different for difference sake, which may be interpreted as better by mistake. Humans like difference even at the cost of true love. Happens everyday. But does someone really want to pay $10k or similar for a hidden cheat? Maybe $50 for a fun weird DAC but $10,000 for one with a crazy marketing spiel written by a con-artist who is so good at the con they have a big fan following and folks will fight for them at Audio Shows and publish glowing reviews.
Lots of recordings are poor and were mastered on really bad speakers, if one album sounds better to you with extra bass turn that dial. But don't shop for an amp that does that behind the scenes and does it to everything.
Maybe your room is small and so you need to reduce bass across the board or it overloads the space, I still say do that with a dial or PEQ and no after searching for the perfect 'thin' amp.
Maybe you need assistance with dialog in movie, it is nice to make an adjustment to increase vocal output.
Maybe it is late at night or you normally listen at low volumes, use loudness compensation, turn it on. Humans do not hear bass well at all at low volumes and this loss is not linear, it will not likely sound good without compensation.
Maybe you love bass, adding an extra 5,10 or even 20db can be a lot of fun and any electronic show or hip-hop show will do this even if the recording isn't as boosted.
Maybe your speakers were measured thoroughly by one of the Klippel guys and you realized with a couple PEQ adjustments they would have world class anechoic frequency response. Give it a shot. The engineers would have done that themselves but passive speakers can't ship with that type of tweak and while all passive crossover have some EQing designed in and some have a lot of it, there is a budget and a limit there.
Room size affects all of this, room interactions affect this. Buy neutral electronics and tweak your rooms, tweak you Dirac and PEQ. Nothing makes more difference if some is not taming room nulls and peaks, no amp in existence at any price can do that. I'd actually rather have an amp with 1% THD and +/-1db variation coupled with PEQ vs an amp with 0.0000001% THD and +/_0db variation but no PEQ or Dirac.
I'm simply saying start with as much high fidelity as possible and then make any adjustments as needed by choice, and by choices you can take back and change with a turn of the dial or a flip of a switch, not by buying selling an endless line of amps, AVRs and DACs.
Plus speakers(and the room), which affect the final sound the most are such a wild card it allows someone to spend all their time on that which is a lot if someone goes into the rabbit hole.
The point is, you want to buy equipment that gives you the greatest transparency possible for your sources. Needing to raise the volume such that you get 1% THD on a DRX 3.4 because there are many passages in the 200-300 Hz range that approaches 2 ohms on your speakers doesn't qualify as transparent! You can't fix or EQ "transparency" into being (since you never received it from the source)! Do you understand now?
1) Transparency first and foremost
2) Adjust w/RC and EQ to taste
So someone buys a product(ie AVR often costly) that has "great transparency" based on measurements, how does it sound?
I need at the very least source, speakers and somewhere to listen(only the tip of the iceberg).....will any of these affect the quality of the sound...YES all of them.
So does the quality of #1 guarantee good or poor sound....NO
The proof is everywhere, m3n00b is a perfect(small) example using the very scenario you gave!
Do you understand now?
In reality all those numbers really do is give people like you with zero experience with the product to come in here and tell owners/people.
"User can't tell the difference" or "there's a high probability it's not going to end well" or "get ready for a dose of "I told you so"!", ETC!
High fidelity means true to the source, not good sounding.
I have nothing against adjusting to taste. But I don't appreciate manufactures pawing off poor performers for the same price as superbly engineered competitors nor do I appreciate all the vastly overpriced 'luxury' hifi trying to pass itself off as ever increasing performance and fidelity. Many audio elements reached fully sonic maturity decades ago and cannot be audibly improved in any way again ever. Since the best objectively measuring $100 DAC is already neutral beyond all ability for people to ever hear it is therefore audibly indistinguishable from the best objectively measuring $20,000 DAC. Any difference between DACs at this point is either made up by various biasing or due to a flaw that is intentional and makes one sound different for difference sake, which may be interpreted as better by mistake. Humans like difference even at the cost of true love. Happens everyday. But does someone really want to pay $10k or similar for a hidden cheat? Maybe $50 for a fun weird DAC but $10,000 for one with a crazy marketing spiel written by a con-artist who is so good at the con they have a big fan following and folks will fight for them at Audio Shows and publish glowing reviews.
Lots of recordings are poor and were mastered on really bad speakers, if one album sounds better to you with extra bass turn that dial. But don't shop for an amp that does that behind the scenes and does it to everything.
Maybe your room is small and so you need to reduce bass across the board or it overloads the space, I still say do that with a dial or PEQ and no after searching for the perfect 'thin' amp.
Maybe you need assistance with dialog in movie, it is nice to make an adjustment to increase vocal output.
Maybe it is late at night or you normally listen at low volumes, use loudness compensation, turn it on. Humans do not hear bass well at all at low volumes and this loss is not linear, it will not likely sound good without compensation.
Maybe you love bass, adding an extra 5,10 or even 20db can be a lot of fun and any electronic show or hip-hop show will do this even if the recording isn't as boosted.
Maybe your speakers were measured thoroughly by one of the Klippel guys and you realized with a couple PEQ adjustments they would have world class anechoic frequency response. Give it a shot. The engineers would have done that themselves but passive speakers can't ship with that type of tweak and while all passive crossover have some EQing designed in and some have a lot of it, there is a budget and a limit there.
Room size affects all of this, room interactions affect this. Buy neutral electronics and tweak your rooms, tweak you Dirac and PEQ. Nothing makes more difference if some is not taming room nulls and peaks, no amp in existence at any price can do that. I'd actually rather have an amp with 1% THD and +/-1db variation coupled with PEQ vs an amp with 0.0000001% THD and +/_0db variation but no PEQ or Dirac.
I'm simply saying start with as much high fidelity as possible and then make any adjustments as needed by choice, and by choices you can take back and change with a turn of the dial or a flip of a switch, not by buying selling an endless line of amps, AVRs and DACs.
Plus speakers(and the room), which affect the final sound the most are such a wild card it allows someone to spend all their time on that which is a lot if someone goes into the rabbit hole.
"High fidelity means true to the source, not good sounding" then continue the thesis defining good or bad "sound" by measurement or as you say "fidelity"!
The irony is you go on pointing to the MANY things that affect the "sound" of those measurements prior to listening!
You end with "I'm simply saying start with as much high fidelity as possible and then make any adjustments as needed by choice"!
Again if one is suppose to start out with "high fidelity" why make adjustments and are those adjustments higher or lower fidelity?
Isn't the end point 'sound" quality after all, if "High fidelity" doesn't improve sound why worry about it.
"High fidelity means true to the source, not good sounding" then continue the thesis defining good or bad "sound" by measurement or as you say "fidelity"!
The irony is you go on pointing to the MANY things that affect the "sound" of those measurements prior to listening!
You end with "I'm simply saying start with as much high fidelity as possible and then make any adjustments as needed by choice"!
Again if one is suppose to start out with "high fidelity" why make adjustments and are those adjustments higher or lower fidelity?
Isn't the end point 'sound" quality after all?
All of the question you just asked were already answered in my previous few posts. In fact the last post was literally an answer to what you just asked.
You have been vocal on the audio listings on SD for awhile and we have talked other times and I have read other conversations you have had with other uses so I feel I get what this is for you. The best thing you can do at this point is answer any questions yourself. Figure out what it is you want both out of audio and out of discussing it with others.
FWIIW I'm writing all of this for my own fun and for anyone who happens to read them on this small public SD listing, not specifically you. So it is what it is.
So someone buys a product(ie AVR often costly) that has "great transparency" based on measurements, how does it sound?
I need at the very least source, speakers and somewhere to listen(only the tip of the iceberg).....will any of these affect the quality of the sound...YES all of them.
So does the quality of #1 guarantee good or poor sound....NO
The proof is everywhere, m3n00b is a perfect(small) example using the very scenario you gave!
Do you understand now?
In reality all those numbers really do is give people like you with zero experience with the product to come in here and tell owners/people.
"User can't tell the difference" or "there's a high probability it's not going to end well" or "get ready for a dose of "I told you so"!", ETC!
I don't need bells and whistles. Just looking for good sound
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