expirediconian | Staff posted Dec 03, 2023 07:32 PM
Item 1 of 2
Item 1 of 2
expirediconian | Staff posted Dec 03, 2023 07:32 PM
Onkyo TX-NR7100 9.2-Channel 8K/4K Network A/V Receiver
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Already have a UMIK-1, so looking forward to getting a great calibration result with this.
Here's a setup guide for dual subs I've used before …
http://avrant.com/a-12-step-guide...ubwoofe
Here's a setup guide for dual subs I've used before …
http://avrant.com/a-12-step-guide...ubwoofers/ [avrant.com]
When I was running only two subs I was able to get things sounding decent by just adjusting phase (used UMIK to measure and align as closely as possible) but adding a miniDSP helped fine tune things further (SVS subs with full phase adjustments). Now that I have four subs individual time delays are really a must.
When I was running only two subs I was able to get things sounding decent by just adjusting phase (used UMIK to measure and align as closely as possible) but adding a miniDSP helped fine tune things further (SVS subs with full phase adjustments). Now that I have four subs individual time delays are really a must.
REW has an alignment tool which is a fairly quick way to align subs (or mains) without getting really deep into MSO, all you need is a mic and you can see how multiple subs line up and if a minidsp or similar will help or not.
Nothing is perfect but without the minidsp I was never able to properly align the two subs with the mains properly using only phase controls, with the addition of delay for each sub the response is much smoother at the crossover point.
The point of the minidsp is to make all the subs act as one and get them integrated as closely as possible before running room correction.
https://www.sounddesign
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REW has an alignment tool which is a fairly quick way to align subs (or mains) without getting really deep into MSO, all you need is a mic and you can see how multiple subs line up and if a minidsp or similar will help or not.
Nothing is perfect but without the minidsp I was never able to properly align the two subs with the mains properly using only phase controls, with the addition of delay for each sub the response is much smoother at the crossover point.
The point of the minidsp is to make all the subs act as one and get them integrated as closely as possible before running room correction.
https://www.sounddesign
They may not be "exactly the same" but I'd love some real life examples of the significance of the "differences" if you could enlighten me.
In other words, in one case you align mains and subs using phase. In the second case you align mains and subs using time.
Explain what the actual audible differences would be.
Give me an example I could recreate. I have all the tools (minidsp, room eq wizard, umik-1, subs with variable phase, etc etc).
They may not be "exactly the same" but I'd love some real life examples of the significance of the "differences" if you could enlighten me.
In other words, in one case you align mains and subs using phase. In the second case you align mains and subs using time.
Explain what the actual audible differences would be.
Give me an example I could recreate. I have all the tools (minidsp, room eq wizard, umik-1, subs with variable phase, etc etc).
You'd generally use both phase and time delay. Of course you could get lucky and everything aligns perfectly just by using standard room correction and adjusting phase. When you run room correction it will treat all subs as one so generally it will have a delay of 0ms and add a delay to the mains.
You can use the impulse response to see how things line up.
https://www. audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/manually-time-aligning-subwoofer-s-to-mains-how-to.15269/
You'd generally use both phase and time delay. Of course you could get lucky and everything aligns perfectly just by using standard room correction and adjusting phase. When you run room correction it will treat all subs as one so generally it will have a delay of 0ms and add a delay to the mains.
You can use the impulse response to see how things line up.
https://www. audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/manually-time-aligning-subwoofer-s-to-mains-how-to.15269/
After someone sets up their system based on "distance" (such as using Audussey or another speaker distance program in the avr), which should really be named "time" in the avr menu since it uses impulses, and they then tweak their subs (if necessary based on listening and measurement) by using their phase knobs (like I said in my initial comment), what else is there to do?
My initial comment was based on the assumption that folks already knew step #1 to setting up any subwoofer based system is to time align the speakers using the distance setting which uses sound impulses to measure acoustical distances.
After someone sets up their system based on "distance" (such as using Audussey or another speaker distance program in the avr), which should really be named "time" in the avr menu since it uses impulses, and they then tweak their subs (if necessary based on listening and measurement) by using their phase knobs (like I said in my initial comment), what else is there to do?
My initial comment was based on the assumption that folks already knew step #1 to setting up any subwoofer based system is to time align the speakers using the distance setting which uses sound impulses to measure acoustical distances.
I can tell you on my setup even with two subs a MiniDSP helped to integrate everything better compared to not having individual time delay and this is in a room that is rectangular and both identical subs (PB2000's) were at the front of the room, I had some pretty significant nulls in the 60-80hz range and getting the subs aligned mostly solved those - of course I wanted more output so I added two more subs.
Since this specific AVR only has one (bridged) sub out all you can really do is adjust phase individually and hope room correction fixes everything else, it will treat two subs as one so you cannot change the time delay for each sub individually. If it had two individual outputs it would be better, but there are still some limitations on how Dirac without DLBC handles subwoofer integration (it doesn't automatically adjust crossovers and some other things so you have to set those up manually - it generally seems to treat subs as speakers). Audyssey MultEQ XT32 handles multiple subs better but other aspects may not be as accurate.
These videos are fairly in depth if someone is interested in it.
https://www.youtube.com/@jeffmery/videos
I can tell you on my setup even with two subs a MiniDSP helped to integrate everything better compared to not having individual time delay and this is in a room that is rectangular and both identical subs (PB2000's) were at the front of the room, I had some pretty significant nulls in the 60-80hz range and getting the subs aligned mostly solved those - of course I wanted more output so I added two more subs.
Since this specific AVR only has one (bridged) sub out all you can really do is adjust phase individually and hope room correction fixes everything else, it will treat two subs as one so you cannot change the time delay for each sub individually. If it had two individual outputs it would be better, but there are still some limitations on how Dirac without DLBC handles subwoofer integration (it doesn't automatically adjust crossovers and some other things so you have to set those up manually - it generally seems to treat subs as speakers). Audyssey MultEQ XT32 handles multiple subs better but other aspects may not be as accurate.
These videos are fairly in depth if someone is interested in it.
https://www.youtube.com/@jeffmery/videos
Ok. We've now come full circle.
An 80 hz bass wavelength (the most common and recommended low pass crossover) is 14 ft long.
As long as the distance from you to each of your two identical subs, which have fully variable phase adjustments, does not exceed 14 ft, please explain how adjusting one of the phase knobs couldn't bring both drivers into perfect phase and time alignment
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Ok. We've now come full circle.
An 80 hz bass wavelength (the most common and recommended low pass crossover) is 14 ft long.
As long as the distance from you to each of your two identical subs, which have fully variable phase adjustments, does not exceed 14 ft, please explain how adjusting one of the phase knobs couldn't bring both drivers into perfect phase and time alignment
Again, if you're happy with the response in your particular room and you don't have any major cancellations then further tuning may not be worth the effort. There is a reason miniDSP's are popular for subwoofers - they can improve the response significantly if set up properly but of course it's not always worth the effort and there may very well be no improvement in the end.
Here's a discussion on time vs phase alignment:
https://gearspace.com/board/so-mu...align.html
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